---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/25/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:30 AM - Re: Re: P-mag Wiring (Steve Sampson) 2. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: P-mag Wiring (Michael T. Ice) 3. 07:55 AM - Re: TruTrak EFIS SG () 4. 08:11 AM - Re: E-MAG wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: P-mag Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:40 AM - A210 (Kevin Boddicker) 7. 08:41 AM - Re: TruTrak EFIS SG (H. M. Haught Jr.) 8. 09:51 AM - p-mag wiring (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 9. 10:27 AM - Re: Dual Ignition (Todd Heffley) 10. 11:02 AM - Re: Dual Ignition (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 12:27 PM - Re: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . (earl_schroeder@juno.com) 12. 12:44 PM - Re: Dual Ignition (James H Nelson) 13. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: P-mag Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 01:36 PM - Re: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 02:11 PM - Re: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . (H. M. Haught Jr.) 16. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: P-mag Wiring (Steve Sampson) 17. 02:57 PM - Re: Re: P-mag Wiring (Steve Sampson) 18. 03:03 PM - Re: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . (earl_schroeder@juno.com) 19. 07:05 PM - Comm Antenna (Dan Reeves) 20. 07:58 PM - Re: Comm Antenna (Bill Maxwell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:19 AM PST US From: "Steve Sampson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that the mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the code and the reason why they say this. Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge, how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code initialisation.. Bob? It was for this reason that I asked if anyone could see a problem with a 2-50 type switch which I described before: - in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered, but the P-lead off. - in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the power and P-lead is on. - in the top, momentary position, the power is cut. (To test the self generation.) The P-lead remains on. Operating this way the P-mag would see power once the master is on. It would only loose power from the battery when the engine is running and you switch to the self generation test. P-mag condone that. The one important assumption I am making with my proposal, is that as you move from the bottom to the midle position, the power cant 'flutter' for an instant, and the P-lead connected, BEFORE the power connection is remade. I presume with these switches the connection is not lost, however briefly? Bob, if you are reading this can you confirm my understanding of how the contacts move in these switvches? Thanks, Steve. On 25/09/2007, David & Elaine Lamphere wrote: > > I hate to draw this out - but - according to the installation manual, > page 20, we are only talking about one +13.8vdc lead, a circuit breaker and > a test switch (for a PMag, none required for an EMag) plus the necessary > ground. That said, you will note that the manual schematic shows the +13.8v > dc lead coming from the battery contactor (main bus). IF you ever have to > shut down the main bus (disengage the contactor) and you don't have an > alternate source for EMag power... well, you get the picture.... If you > have 2 P-Mags and they are working - no need to be concerned... > > It really isn't THAT complicated an issue. > > Dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Michael Ice > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2007 5:04 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring > > > Les, > > Follow the folks that make them and use their wiring system. It is > different then the Z-11 & 33 but it's the way Emagair suggests. You can't go > wrong using the manufactures wiring diagram. Why do it differently when the > Z-11 & 33 schematic offer no advantage. > > Mike ice > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Les Davis > Date: Monday, September 24, 2007 12:36 pm > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > > > > > > I'm also in the process of wiring up my dual p-mags. Given the > > concerns on > > this thread and others I'm not comfortable with the best way to > > proceed.I've generally followed the Z-11 architecture (batt bus, > > ebus and main bus) > > and have the dual 2-10 and a 1-3 switches to install the pmag > > wiring per > > Fig. Z-33 "Maintenance / Hand Prop Option for E-Mags / PMags". > > > > I'm aware that Emagaire recommends a wiring diagram that seems quite > > different than Fig. Z-33. I must admit I don't understand all of > > the issues > > in wiring the manufacturer's way vs. that given in Fig. Z-33 and > > wouldsincerely appreciate any help I can get on the single most > > important wiring > > in my project. > > > > Regards, > > Les Davis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:28 AM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring Steve, Your idea seems good to me. But I wonder why do you want to use the 2-50 switch? Why not just wire the mags the way the Emagair folks suggest? One thing I like about the AeroElectric idea is the concept of reducing "parts count". More parts equals more possible trouble. But in this instance either system uses at least 2 switches for each P-mag, so it is a wash. I understand the need for the switch to shut off the power to the P-mag so you can check the internal alternator but why hide them? If you hide them will you need a warning light to tell you they are in one position or another? I have been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an LED light in the end of it. The AeroElectric z-33 figure shows the 2-10 switch being hooked up to P-mags using wire colors. I think that it would be better if the connector plug was numbered on those drawings. The E/P mags don't have colored wires on them. I agree, we should hope that Bob and Emag can get together and come up with a one size fits all, with a reduced parts count, and doesn't cause damage to the P-mags with and accidental push or flick of a switch. I propose until this situation is sorted out by us, that those of us installing and flying behind these E/P mags follow the manufacturers wiring diagrams. I do like Bob's suggestion to wire the mags to the battery bus. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Sampson To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:27 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that the mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the code and the reason why they say this. Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge, how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code initialisation.. Bob? It was for this reason that I asked if anyone could see a problem with a 2-50 type switch which I described before: - in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered, but the P-lead off. - in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the power and P-lead is on. - in the top, momentary position, the power is cut. (To test the self generation.) The P-lead remains on. Operating this way the P-mag would see power once the master is on. It would only loose power from the battery when the engine is running and you switch to the self generation test. P-mag condone that. The one important assumption I am making with my proposal, is that as you move from the bottom to the midle position, the power cant 'flutter' for an instant, and the P-lead connected, BEFORE the power connection is remade. I presume with these switches the connection is not lost, however briefly? Bob, if you are reading this can you confirm my understanding of how the contacts move in these switvches? Thanks, Steve. On 25/09/2007, David & Elaine Lamphere wrote: I hate to draw this out - but - according to the installation manual, page 20, we are only talking about one +13.8vdc lead, a circuit breaker and a test switch (for a PMag, none required for an EMag) plus the necessary ground. That said, you will note that the manual schematic shows the +13.8v dc lead coming from the battery contactor (main bus). IF you ever have to shut down the main bus (disengage the contactor) and you don't have an alternate source for EMag power... well, you get the picture.... If you have 2 P-Mags and they are working - no need to be concerned... It really isn't THAT complicated an issue. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Ice To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:04 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring Les, Follow the folks that make them and use their wiring system. It is different then the Z-11 & 33 but it's the way Emagair suggests. You can't go wrong using the manufactures wiring diagram. Why do it differently when the Z-11 & 33 schematic offer no advantage. Mike ice ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Davis Date: Monday, September 24, 2007 12:36 pm Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > > I'm also in the process of wiring up my dual p-mags. Given the > concerns on > this thread and others I'm not comfortable with the best way to > proceed.I've generally followed the Z-11 architecture (batt bus, > ebus and main bus) > and have the dual 2-10 and a 1-3 switches to install the pmag > wiring per > Fig. Z-33 "Maintenance / Hand Prop Option for E-Mags / PMags". > > I'm aware that Emagaire recommends a wiring diagram that seems quite > different than Fig. Z-33. I must admit I don't understand all of > the issues > in wiring the manufacturer's way vs. that given in Fig. Z-33 and > wouldsincerely appreciate any help I can get on the single most > important wiring > in my project. > > Regards, > Les Davis > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak EFIS SG From: Does anyone know if the new EFIS will be integrated with any of their autopilot options? It would make a nice combo package. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:07 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak EFIS SG --> BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > > > Good Afternoon Echristley, > > I know absolutely nothing about all of those numbers you are > mentioning, but > a faster update rate buys you a LOT when you are using the instrument for > flight control. > > How do your numbers compare to the Garmin 396 and the Garmin 496 > numbers? > > While it is possible to use the flight instrument screen on a Garmin > 196, > 296 or 396 as a back up set of flight instruments, the 496 has a five times > faster update rate than does the 396 and it is a LOT easier to fly. > > The faster the update rate, the faster you can notice a turn. Stop the > turn > and you will survive. Let the turn go for a few seconds and you will die. > > Bob, if you update fast enough, all you notice is fluid motion. You know your TV is really a series of still frames. At what point does the moving picture go from being the flickering stop-motion that marked the earliest years of the cinema, to the fluid life-like replica that is modern cinema. It is right about 20 frames per second, 20Hz, for most people. Some people can notice the flicker at that rate. Push it to 30Hz and no one can really tell. So the advertisers say they can update the display at 60Hz, 60 times per second, and this makes them better than the other guys that only update at 20Hz. If you're bothered by the flickering in your TV that makes the sports action jerky, I'd say the 60Hz is a selling point. Most of us can get by with 20, though. As a software engineer, the information does give some tantalizing clues to the TruTrak's architecture vs other systems. An EFIS has to do 3 things. Collect some data, create a model of the world, and display a picture. Designing the hardware for the system, you want to make $&(* sure you have enough processing power to handle all three things. It seems that TruTrak chose to write some tight code that runs in a loop. Collect. Create. Display. Collect. Create. Display. This would make for some clean, simple, linear code. I'd choose to have a safety factor of 3 on the hardware, and 20Hz update rate is what's needed. So, the 60Hz result is about right. Another way to set this up would be to maintain the model in memory. You run one loop that constantly collects data an updates the model. Another loop would create a picture from the model and display it. It could possibly result in fewer hardware requirements, because you can throttle back the picture drawing code to only what's necessary...20Hz. Six of one. Half dozen of the other. I'm glad there's companies approaching it from both directions, because in the end, we're the winners. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-MAG wiring Brad, I note that it has been about 18 months since we last "talked". I've been trying to plan a trip to your neck of the woods so we can meet personally. I was at OSH this past year but had to make it a quick in-and-out to support the forums I'd signed up for . . . my dad was in his last days in Medicine Lodge, KS and I didn't have time for socializing. In any case, I'd like to take this opportunity to renew our acquaintance to update myself on the progress of your efforts over the past year and a half. I also need to expand my understanding of your products so that I don't offer poor advise when publishing words and drawings that speak of e-Mag devices. After adding e-Mag products to our electrical system architecture drawings over a year ago, I put on my "systems integrator" hat for certified aircraft and deduced that from the pilot's perspective, it's useful to test the systems ability to run self powered during preflight. From both a builder's and pilot's perspectives, it's useful to minimize the number of switches on the panel. I crafted a suggested wiring diagram which was published as our Figure Z-33 and excerpted in one or more of the full-up aircraft drawings. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z33K.pdf In this drawing you can see that three-position, progressive transfer switches are incorporated to have an OFF position that grounds the RED control lead and breaks power to the ORN lead from the battery bus. The mid position removes the ground from the control lead but does not apply power. The upper position leaves the control lead ungrounded and adds bus power to the system. The thought was that by means of logical positioning of switches a pilot could demonstrate that a P-Mag would run self-powered during a preflight run-up. A third maintenance switch was necessary to take advantage of built-in timing functions. A switch under the cowl would offer a means by which the e-mag/p-mag could be powered up for timing leaving the rest of the aircraft 'cold'. Here are the Figure Z-33 notes that accompany the wiring diagram in the AeroElectric Connection. --------begin excerpt------- Figure Z-33 P-Mag Maintenance Mode and Hand Propping Option. E-Mags and P-Mags are a unique product in that as the factory points out, have TWO switchable functionsPower and control. Their installation manuals suggest separate switches but in a quest for the minimalist panel, I crafted the drawing for P-Mags in Figure Z-33 which is repeated in Figure Z-13/8. . . . now, be aware that the sequence of switching functions depicted have been commented on by the good folks at EMagair suggesting that switch movements should bring power on first followed by activating the magneto. My wiring diagram shows the opposite sequence, ignition "active" first followed by supporting power. The reason is quite simple. There are separate but divergent interests in the ownership and operation of the p-mag: (1) When sitting at the end of the runway doing a pre-flight, the PILOT'S interest is "are the built in alternators for each P-Mag functioning?" By wiring as I've suggested, moving the switch from full up to the mid position deprives a P-Mag of electrical support and (if the run-up RPMS are high enough), the ignition will not falter when dropped to the mid position. Of course, the opposite ignition needs to be completely OFF at this time. Pre-flight test sequence would be: RUN-UP RPM . . . . . Set L-IGN Switch . . . . . . . OFF R-IGN Switch . . . . . . . ON but no BAT (mid position) Note engine does not falter L-IGN Switch . . . . . . . ON but no BAT (mid position) R-IGN Switch . . . . . . . OFF Note engine does not falter Both IGN Switches . . . . BAT (2) A secondary interest is what might be called the maintenance mode for ground ops where the mechanic wants to have the systems powered but inactive for using a P-mag's built-in timing features -OR- for hand propping the engine where again, it's useful to be able to hear the timing buzzer. In this mode, you MUST have battery power available to the P-Mags even when in the inactive state. The diagram shows a third switch (accessible through the oil check/ filler door?) that places temporary power on both ignitions while leaving absolute control over activity in the hands of whoever has access to pilot's controls on the panel. If one chooses this architecture, then a light on the panel should be included to alert the pilot should the switch be left in the maintenance position. Not a big risk from a fight operations and safety perspective but it WOULD run the battery down. This figure adds a switch to allow powering up the e-Mag/p-Mag product while leaving it de-activated. This feature activates the built in aural timing buzzer needed for timing the ignition system -AND- for proper pre-positioning the prop for hand-propping the engine. --- end of excerpt ---- I've been told via the 'grapevine' that operating the p-Mag in the manner suggested has some issues with respect to product performance. Specifically that if power is removed from a p-Mag and then replaced that the processor wanders into the weeds and upsets the system's timing. Understand my friend that I was in no way trying to do an end-run on you . . . it seemed that the wiring/operating scheme I was suggesting covered some bases that I would be required to address with systems wieners, test pilots and DERs should I be tasked with qualifying your product onto a type certificated aircraft. If indeed it is a bad thing to remove and then replace power on a p-Mag while it's operating, then I'm mystified. Irrespective of the aircraft's electrical architecture, DO-160 suggests we design our products to gracefully recover from a power interruption . . . if the 'grapevine' stories are accurate, then the p-Mag would not fair well in a DO-160 investigation. If the internal alternator is poised to pick up the load during a power outage I'm further mystified as to why a p-Mag would even be aware of bus power interruptions. The spirit and intent of the proposed pre-flight test was to demonstrate that the p-Mag was ready, willing and able to run if the bus goes down. I would expect the processor in a running p-Mag to be oblivious of whether or not bus power was present. I confess that my assumptions about functionality of your product were being filtered through the logic used to craft products for the TC aircraft world and I may have stubbed my toe by not clearing this idea with you. I'd be pleased to understand the true nature of the beast with a goal of offering our collective customers the best we know how to do in crafting an owner built and maintained aircraft. I still want to visit your facilities. I also need to drop into George Braley's place in southern OK. I might just take a couple days pretty soon and make this trip happen. I've been 'retired' from Beech for about two months . . . I've done more new design work the past 6 weeks than I've done the past 6-years! Problem is that what I thought was going to be a 20 hr/wk retirement activity has turned into a more-than-full-time job. I've told my principal that I can do this for awhile . . . but I've have some fun things that need to happen pretty soon too. It would also be helpful if you could give me a engineer's narrative of field problems with e-mag products in the field. Folks are asking me about them and I have to confess ignorance in the matter. Further, if there's anything in my bag-of-tricks that might be helpful in your endeavors, I can make you a really great deal. I've written several times that the e-Mag products promise to be the next great thing in ignition systems for light aircraft. I'd be pleased to be of assistance for making that hopeful assertion a demonstrable reality. Kindest regards, Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring At 08:27 AM 9/25/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one >preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that the >mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the >P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the >code and the reason why they say this. > >Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge, >how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code >initialisation.. Bob? I've crafted a note to Brad Demet with a goal of repairing a demonstrable disconnect in my understanding of e-Mag's functionality. I've posted a copy of my note to the list. Sorry to take so long to climb back into this particular 'stew pot' . . . I've had too much stuff piled onto my plate over the past 6 months. I trust that Brad and friends will contribute to our understanding of the physics and their design goals in due course. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:26 AM PST US From: Kevin Boddicker Subject: AeroElectric-List: A210 I have been looking at the new ICOM A210. Has anyone any experience with ICOM built in intercoms? I know the new A210 is not available yet, but I'm trying to make a buying decision with little information. Kevin Boddicker Tri Q 200 N7868B 76 hours Luana, IA. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:25 AM PST US From: "H. M. Haught Jr. " Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak EFIS SG Check out Page 63 in the Sept. "Sport Aviation", Paragraph 3 of the ad - "This is also true when operating the optional built-in autopilot." Also www.trutrakap.com - Already offered. M. Haught longg@pjm.com wrote: > > Does anyone know if the new EFIS will be integrated with any of their > autopilot options? It would make a nice combo package. > > ----- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: p-mag wiring From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com Thank you Bob for addressing this issue. I eagerly await Brad's reply. Meanwhile, I can share my recent interaction with Brad on this issue: Some time ago, there was an issue with a customers pmags who had wired them per Bobs suggested method. The Emagair folks had a concern that the uni t MAY have lost its timing due to switching from the upper switch positio n (bus power provided) to the middle position (bus power removed) and the n back again to the upper postion at a time when the engine RPMs were not sufficient to allow the ignition to generate a spark on its own (i.e., around 900 rpm or less). Due to the existing firmware, this action MAY have resulted in the loss of the timing memory in the unit. As a resul t, the firmware was upgraded to prevent the timing memory loss from occurr ing. I told Brad that my dual pmags are wired per Bob's method, and his recommendation was to get the firmware upgrade, but that it was NOT wor th the trouble of changing the wiring. Their only concern at this point w ith Bob's method is that this is not the same wiring configuration used whe n they do their testing of the units, and therefore there is always some chance that test results may not be applicable under Bob's method or an y other alternative wiring method. At the time of my conversation with Br ad, provided the firmware upgrade was completed, there were no other known drawbacks for using Bob's method. This may be comments from the peanut gallery at this point. I am please d to have Bob interacting with Emagair to get to the bottom of it. Erich Weaver This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not reta in, distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should dest roy the e-mail and any attachments or copies. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:34 AM PST US From: Todd Heffley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Ignition Hope this is not a red harring to the discussion... My Favorite dual ignition setup is a Cessna 195. It has a standard Kettering/Distributor as one system and a standard aircraft mag (no mechanical advance) as the other system. Both systems have severe limitations. The distrubutor does not work if ANYTHING fails the aircraft electrical system..... but it starts the engine great. The mag WILL NOT start the engine because it has no impulse, But it is reliable (self supporting) when the engine is running. The value seems to be wildly different failure modes, thus decreasing the chance of a single TYPE of failure leading to a quiet engine. Rather than "My mag switch is better than your mag switch", how about reliability though diversity? I have a maintenance background, not a build background, so my two cents is worth just that. Do not archive. todd ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dual Ignition From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yes but you need to delve a little deeper to understand the situation with the dual ignition. An unfortunate failure mode that happened on two A/C appeared to be ONE of the ignitions losing its timing on a P mag...I.e going waay too advanced. When this happens the other ignition although firing normally will have no effect, the effective timing will be very adavnced and the engine can detonate as happened with the two RV's running Pmags (I know cus mine was one of them). This is not a dual failure however and could be argued the pilots should have shut one of the units down to bring the timing back under control....Ok I'll remember next time. Standard mags do not genearlly have this particular failure mode but my instructor did tell me about one some years back when a mag slipped in its housing. It seems that Emagair have now resolved this problem. As long as the EI's are wired independantly they should be more reliable and longer lasting than mags. Certainly if you wire both EI's from a single fuse then you might as well start playing Russian roulette, but I think with the above two proviso's dual Eis are a pretty bullet proof setup. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:01 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Ignition --> I agree that individual magnetos are not that reliable, but when installed in a pair they do provide a reliable source of ignition. I'm aware of at least two cases where an aircraft with electronic ignition systems had a forced landing due to loss of ignition, or improper functioning of the ignition system. So much for modern, more reliable ignition systems. Can anyone point me at an occurence where an aircraft with dual magnetos had a power loss due to ignition system problems? Kevin Horton On 24 Sep 2007, at 09:20, Ernest Christley wrote: > > > Richard, the fact that the mags require "regular maintenance" and > "proper setup" by someone stricken with OCD to work as you describe > is the classical definition of unreliable. You can't 'rely' on the > average hack with wet ink on his A&P license to set it correctly, > and the fact that it needs to be done so often means the hack will > be doing it or you will be. The electronic ignitions are not > nearly as reliant on special training or fine attention to > installation and maintenance details. You plug it in, and if it > works, it works as designed. > > The fact that the HKS700E was designed to have a significant drop > on one ignition is a red herring. That could have easily been > designed in on purpose so that you would have a definite > reassurance that both are working after the mag check. > > The mag is a complicated electromechanical device that is a > masterpiece of engineering. But they are not reliable. Else, why > do you carry two of them around, and why do you check both of them > just before takeoff on every flight? > > Richard Girard wrote: >> Peter, Upon what data does your statement, "the average mag is >> horribly unreliable", come from? Properly setup and serviced, >> quite the opposite is true, in my experience. Also your statement >> that the dual ignition is required by jug size is questionable, too. >> Last year while in class to get my LSA repairman maintenance >> ticket I set the up two Slick mags to go into an A75. I set the >> internal timing of the mags so that it was dead on for both, and >> the engine timing the same. The instructor was on the verge of >> accusing me of having OCD as I checked and rechecked until I was >> satisfied it was as close as I could get it. When I was finally >> satisfied, we pulled the plane out to the ramp and started it up. >> After it was up to operating temp I did a mag check. It scared the >> wits out of me when I got NO mag drop. Now the EIS installed on >> the plane only read in 10 RPM increments, so there may have been >> some drop, but the instrument didn't read it and I could neither >> hear it, nor feel it in the seat of my pants. I thought sure I had >> installed the P leads improperly and was ready to use the fuel >> valve to shut the engine down when the instructor stepped in, >> checked all the connections and pronounced them good. I did a >> second mag check, and still got no detectable drop. I pulled the >> throttle back to idle, closed both mag switches and the engine >> died just as it should. What gives, I always gotten some drop on >> every plane I've ever been in. We pulled out the continuity >> checker and went over the P leads again. Everything was as it >> should be. Restarted the engine, established 1700 RPM and checked >> again. NO drop. Shut down the left mag, let the engine run for a >> bit and shut down the right mag. The engine died. Restarted, shut >> down the right mag and let the engine run. Again, NO mag drop. >> Killed the left mag, engine died. I'm sure the WTFO expression on >> my face begged an explanation. The instructor, whose list of certs >> look like alphabet soup gone mad, said it's simple really. It's a >> very low time engine (his personal E-AB aircraft, by the way) and >> the students in the class had set everything up as near perfect as >> was humanly possible, hence no discernible mag drop. He recounted >> how many a long faced pilot, discouraged by the $2000 quote for >> parts and labor from another shop has become his loyal customer >> when a new set of points and careful setting of internal mag >> timing and engine timing has restored the mags to proper working >> order for less than a 1/4 of the original estimate. >> Now lets take the other end of the spectrum. I have and HKS700E >> engine on my trike. It's got 40 hours on it. My OCD tendencies >> when it comes to engine variables is as active as ever. It has >> dual CDI's for each of its two diminutive 350cc cylinders. My >> first "mag" check was a real upholstery clincher. I did the check >> at 3000 RPM and each system showed a 500 RPM drop. Needless to say >> I was in a near panic getting to the manuals before I called the >> importer. Under ignition check it said, "engine shouldn't die"! >> It's taken a bit to get used to, but that's the way the little >> engine is designed. It runs like the proverbial sewing machine, >> otherwise. >> My point is, engine design, system integration, and proper setup >> has much more to do with ignition system performance than reliance >> on OWT's about "horribly unreliable" claims. >> >> Rick ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:21 PM PST US From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . Along the same line, Rural King has 48 alalines for $4.49. I haven't tested them but I'll bet it is the same battery. Ear -- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: I was in the local HF store last weekend to pick up some tools for the 'Connection's west campus and spotted some AA alkaline cells on sale in a 24 pak for $5 . . . about 21 cents per cell. I picked up a package and stuck a couple of the cells on my super-duper battery runnerdowner to see how much energy they contained and compared them with a pair of Duracells. The results of the test are shown here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/HF_aa_vs_Duracell.jpg At a 300 mA discharge rate, the Duracells dropped below 1.0 volts right at 5 hours (1.5 a.h.) The HF cells tossed in the towel at about 4 hours and 20 minutes. At this fairly aggressive discharge rate, the el-cheeso HF cells proved to be an excellent value at $.21 each. If there's a Harbor Freight outlet near you, you might want to pick up a pak or two. They have excellent shelf life. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Ignition From: James H Nelson Hi Todd, Your right on the ignition systems on the C195. The only drawback was when water got into the distributor and shorted the system. I had a 1950A model. One of the mods you needed to do was to drill a small hole in the bottom of the distributor in the lowest part to drain any accumulation of water from the distributor. Yes, it started nicely on the point style ignition as long as there was good battery power. It is still a great plane but at 15 gph ( 80 gal tanks) and one quart of oil, it would be a bit expensive to operate today. Jim ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring > I've crafted a note to Brad Demet with a goal > of repairing a demonstrable disconnect in my understanding > of e-Mag's functionality. I've posted a copy of my > note to the list. > > Sorry to take so long to climb back into this particular > 'stew pot' . . . I've had too much stuff piled onto my > plate over the past 6 months. I trust that Brad and > friends will contribute to our understanding of the > physics and their design goals in due course. I've had a response from Brad. I'm going to contact George Braly and see if we can plan a trip for early next week. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . At 07:16 PM 9/25/2007 +0000, you wrote: > > >Along the same line, Rural King has 48 alalines for $4.49. I haven't >tested them but I'll bet it is the same battery. Ear Pretty good price. In fact, the lowest I've ever heard of. If you want me to put the dipstick into them, drop a couple in an envelope and mail to 6936 Bainbridge Road, Wichita, KS 67226. I'll plot them and add to the database on tested products. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:50 PM PST US From: "H. M. Haught Jr. " Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . Just checked Rural King's website - price appears to be $9.99 online for 48 akalines. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 07:16 PM 9/25/2007 +0000, you wrote: > >> >> >> Along the same line, Rural King has 48 alalines for $4.49. I haven't >> tested them but I'll bet it is the same battery. Ear > > > Pretty good price. In fact, the lowest I've ever heard of. > > If you want me to put the dipstick into them, drop a couple > in an envelope and mail to 6936 Bainbridge Road, Wichita, > KS 67226. I'll plot them and add to the database on tested > products. > > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) > ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) > ( Good news weakens me." ) > ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:13 PM PST US From: "Steve Sampson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring Michael, what I think I have proposed is the best of both worlds. I will only have one switch per P-mag in what I described, but it will operate functionally as E-mag intend. (The 2-50 allows me to do this instead of using e-mag's 2 switches.) My intended wiring is pretty much what E-mag require. I have just collapse the two switches into one if you look at it carefully. What I wrote when I started this was "*I plan to tuck them in under the panel, its a -4, where nothing will fall down on them, but well in line of sight..* " So what i am trying to say is protected, but NOT hidden. I cant get overly concerned about switch position. Normally, for the last 50 years or so, you turn both mags on and just leave them like that without lights etc to tell you. Yes, I was puzzled by the colours .v. numbers. Wiring to the battery bus? Isnt that what e-mag required. Perhaps I am not understanding Bob's terminology. Steve. On 25/09/2007, Michael T. Ice wrote: > > *Steve,* > ** > *Your idea seems good to me. But I wonder why do you want to use the 2-50 > switch? Why not just wire the mags the way the Emagair folks suggest? * > ** > *One thing I like about the AeroElectric idea is the concept of reducing > "parts count". More parts equals more possible trouble. But in this instance > either system uses at least 2 switches for each P-mag, so it is a wash.* > ** > *I understand the need for the switch to shut off the power to the P-mag > so you can check the internal alternator but why hide them? If you hide them > will you need a warning light to tell you they are in one position or > another? I have been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an LED light > in the end of it. * > ** > *The AeroElectric z-33 figure shows the 2-10 switch being hooked up to > P-mags using wire colors. I think that it would be better if the connector > plug was numbered on those drawings. The E/P mags don't have colored wires > on them.* > ** > *I agree, we should hope that Bob and Emag can get together and come up > with a one size fits all, with a reduced parts count, and doesn't cause > damage to the P-mags with and accidental push or flick of a switch.* > ** > *I propose until this situation is sorted out by us, that those of us > installing and flying behind these E/P mags follow the manufacturers wiring > diagrams.* > ** > *I do like Bob's suggestion to wire the mags to the battery bus.* > ** > *Mike* > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Steve Sampson > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2007 11:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring > > > Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one > preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that the > mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the > P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the code > and the reason why they say this. > > Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge, > how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code > initialisation.. Bob? > > It was for this reason that I asked if anyone could see a problem with a > 2-50 type switch which I described before: > > - in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered, but > the P-lead off. > - in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the > power and P-lead is on. > - in the top, momentary position, the power is cut. (To test the self > generation.) The P-lead remains on. > > Operating this way the P-mag would see power once the master is on. It > would only loose power from the battery when the engine is running and you > switch to the self generation test. P-mag condone that. > > The one important assumption I am making with my proposal, is that as you > move from the bottom to the midle position, the power cant 'flutter' for an > instant, and the P-lead connected, BEFORE the power connection is remade. I > presume with these switches the connection is not lost, however briefly? > Bob, if you are reading this can you confirm my understanding of how the > contacts move in these switvches? > > Thanks, Steve. > > > On 25/09/2007, David & Elaine Lamphere wrote: > > > > I hate to draw this out - but - according to the installation manual, > > page 20, we are only talking about one +13.8vdc lead, a circuit breaker and > > a test switch (for a PMag, none required for an EMag) plus the necessary > > ground. That said, you will note that the manual schematic shows the +13.8v > > dc lead coming from the battery contactor (main bus). IF you ever have to > > shut down the main bus (disengage the contactor) and you don't have an > > alternate source for EMag power... well, you get the picture.... If you > > have 2 P-Mags and they are working - no need to be concerned... > > > > It really isn't THAT complicated an issue. > > > > Dave > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Michael Ice > > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2007 5:04 PM > > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring > > > > > > > > Les, > > > > Follow the folks that make them and use their wiring system. It is > > different then the Z-11 & 33 but it's the way Emagair suggests. You can't go > > wrong using the manufactures wiring diagram. Why do it differently when the > > Z-11 & 33 schematic offer no advantage. > > > > Mike ice > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Les Davis > > Date: Monday, September 24, 2007 12:36 pm > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also in the process of wiring up my dual p-mags. Given the > > > concerns on > > > this thread and others I'm not comfortable with the best way to > > > proceed.I've generally followed the Z-11 architecture (batt bus, > > > ebus and main bus) > > > and have the dual 2-10 and a 1-3 switches to install the pmag > > > wiring per > > > Fig. Z-33 "Maintenance / Hand Prop Option for E-Mags / PMags". > > > > > > I'm aware that Emagaire recommends a wiring diagram that seems quite > > > different than Fig. Z-33. I must admit I don't understand all of > > > the issues > > > in wiring the manufacturer's way vs. that given in Fig. Z-33 and > > > wouldsincerely appreciate any help I can get on the single most > > > important wiring > > > in my project. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Les Davis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > * > > > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:05 PM PST US From: "Steve Sampson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: P-mag Wiring Bob, thanks for getting involved. In the meantime can you comment on the second bit of my email regarding a 2-50 switch, since it is germain to this: " *The one important assumption I am making with my proposal, is that as you move from the bottom to the midle position, the power cant 'flutter' for an instant, and the P-lead connected, BEFORE the power connection is remade. I presume with these switches the connection is not lost, however briefly? Bob, if you are reading this can you confirm my understanding of how the contacts move in these switvches?* " Thanks, Steve. On 25/09/2007, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > At 08:27 AM 9/25/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > >Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one > >preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that > the > >mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the > >P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the > >code and the reason why they say this. > > > >Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge, > >how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code > >initialisation.. Bob? > > > I've crafted a note to Brad Demet with a goal > of repairing a demonstrable disconnect in my understanding > of e-Mag's functionality. I've posted a copy of my > note to the list. > > Sorry to take so long to climb back into this particular > 'stew pot' . . . I've had too much stuff piled onto my > plate over the past 6 months. I trust that Brad and > friends will contribute to our understanding of the > physics and their design goals in due course. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:45 PM PST US From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight AA cells on sale . . . OOOPS, you are correct. I mistyped. Sorry, just looked at my receipt. Earl Still a good price... -- "H. M. Haught Jr. " wrote: Just checked Rural King's website - price appears to be $9.99 online for 48 akalines. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 07:16 PM 9/25/2007 +0000, you wrote: > >> >> >> Along the same line, Rural King has 48 alalines for $4.49. I haven't >> tested them but I'll bet it is the same battery. Ear > > > Pretty good price. In fact, the lowest I've ever heard of. > > If you want me to put the dipstick into them, drop a couple > in an envelope and mail to 6936 Bainbridge Road, Wichita, > KS 67226. I'll plot them and add to the database on tested > products. > > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) > ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) > ( Good news weakens me." ) > ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:56 PM PST US From: Dan Reeves Subject: AeroElectric-List: Comm Antenna I recently purchased a Comant CI 122 bent whip comm antenna. If I check the continuity between the base plate and the outer case (ground) of the BNC connector, all is well. However if I check the continuity between the center pin of the BNC connector and the metal whip/rod/antenna I get no needle deflection. Do I have a defective antenna? Thanks Dan Reeves RV-7A --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:15 PM PST US From: "Bill Maxwell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Comm Antenna Not familiar with the Comant CI 122 Dan but it may be capacitor coupled inside the base of the antenna. Maybe best checked with Comant? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Reeves To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:59 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Comm Antenna I recently purchased a Comant CI 122 bent whip comm antenna. If I check the continuity between the base plate and the outer case (ground) of the BNC connector, all is well. However if I check the continuity between the center pin of the BNC connector and the metal whip/rod/antenna I get no needle deflection. Do I have a defective antenna? Thanks Dan Reeves RV-7A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.