---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/28/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:04 AM - Re: Trim Servo Speed Controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:12 AM - FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (Giffen Marr) 3. 08:05 AM - Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (Rhino) 4. 08:50 AM - Re: Ground Plane on Carbon (Peter Pengilly) 5. 10:18 AM - Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:22 AM - Re: Ground Plane on Carbon (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:59 AM - Re: High temp p-lead wire..... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:16 AM - Re: Ground Plane on Carbon (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 11:17 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 37 Msgs - 09/26/07 (Michael Pereira) 10. 12:19 PM - Poor man's high torque servo circuit (John Burnaby) 11. 01:50 PM - subject line, digest. (Deems Herring) 12. 02:38 PM - Re: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 02:40 PM - Re: Trim Servo Speed Controller (Peter Harris) 14. 03:08 PM - Re: Ground Plane on Carbon (Peter Harris) 15. 03:15 PM - Re: Ground Plane on Carbon (Peter Harris) 16. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market (John Morgensen) 17. 04:54 PM - Re: Trim Servo Speed Controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 05:06 PM - Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (Ralph Hoover) 19. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 06:44 PM - Re: High temp p-lead wire..... (Jim Baker) 21. 07:06 PM - Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 07:27 PM - Re: High temp p-lead wire..... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 07:35 PM - Re: Poor man's high torque servo circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:52 PM - Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (corrected) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim Servo Speed Controller > >Same subject if I may ... >I have no space to fit the position indicators offered by Ray Allen but >would like to use an LED to light each extreme position using the wiring >supplied. Does anyone know how to make that work? >Thanks >Peter H See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/Trim_Limits_Annunciator.pdf You can get the parts at Radio Shack ---------------------------- > > >Bob, Did you ever publish a DIY diagram for a speed controller for >the Ray Allen trim servos? Yes. http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Two_Speed_Trim_1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Two_Speed_Trim_2.pdf Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:26 AM PST US From: "Giffen Marr" Subject: AeroElectric-List: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers Bob You may find this FAA Designee Newsletter of interest. http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/desig nee_news/designee_updates/ Giff Marr ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:03 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers From: "Rhino" GAMarr(at)charter.net wrote: > Bob > > You may find this FAA Designee Newsletter of interest. > > http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/desig > nee_news/designee_updates/ > > Giff Marr This link goes directly to the newsletter in question. http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_news/designee_updates/media/2007/2007_10_Update.pdf Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136998#136998 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:11 AM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Could I observe that antennae inside carbon structures often don't perform very well. On sailplanes the comm antenna is often moulded into the fin; however on sailplanes with a carbon fuselage the antenna is often installed in the rudder (skinned with glass) for much improved transmit & receive performance. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris Sent: 27 September 2007 23:02 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon I once saw an antenna installation using a single loop of wire which was glued inside the hull as a full circle and which acted like a toroid, no ground plane fitted. The operator claimed he was happy with the performance. I would like to find out some more about the design length if anyone knows. Peter H _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Friday, 28 September 2007 3:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Hi Dan, I installed antenna ground planes on the outside of my carbon fiber Legacy. Bob is right that there are big advantages of doing it inside the fuselage, but for the comm antenna on the Legacy, it is difficult because of the many obstructions inside. Putting the ground plane on the outside was way easier. I made the comm antenna ground plane out of 1/4" wide adhesive backed copper foil strips available from stained glass supply stores, making them the length that Bob advises. I made eight "spokes" or radials equally spaced around the antenna mounting location. I soldered the foil radials to each other where they met at the center in a way that it would make good contact with the antenna base. Then I covered each foil radial with deck cloth saturated with epoxy to keep the radials permanently attached to the carbon fiber belly. The foil is so thin that with a little body work, it makes a nearly imperceptible bump. Besides, it's on the belly where nobody can see it anyway. I've been flying since March. I have no way of quantifying it, but my experience with the type of long distance cross country flights that the Legacy is suited for, I'm happy with the performance of my radio. Bob has often observed that these unquantified testimonials aren't all that valuable, but it's all I've got and I think it may be better than nothing. The interesting thing is that there are Legacy builders who've done just about every ground plane variation possible, including no ground plane at all, and they all seem satisfied with their antenna's performance. It could be we're worrying over nothing? Dennis http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers At 09:07 AM 9/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Bob > >You may find this FAA Designee Newsletter of interest. http://tinyurl.com/2hpesb Yes, it was interesting in a disappointing sort of way. Here's an analysis of the document: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Testing_in_Aircraft_with_EFID.pdf Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Peter, you're correct that while carbon fiber is not as conductive as aluminum (1000x the sheet resistance) it IS conductive enough to degrade antenna performance for devices mounted inside the structure. The loop antenna you were recalling is cited in this posting from the past: Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- If your tailcone has a diameter of around 31 inches, you can try the Morris Com Loop antenna, which does not require a ground plane and is a better antenna than the typical quarter wave whip. http:www.DaveMorris.com/MorrisComLoop Dave Morris ----------------------------------------- At 04:48 PM 9/28/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Could I observe that antennae inside carbon structures often don t perform >very well. On sailplanes the comm antenna is often moulded into the fin; >however on sailplanes with a carbon fuselage the antenna is often >installed in the rudder (skinned with glass) for much improved transmit & >receive performance. > > >Peter > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris >Sent: 27 September 2007 23:02 >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon > > >I once saw an antenna installation using a single loop of wire which was >glued inside the hull as a full circle and which acted like a toroid, no >ground plane fitted. The operator claimed he was happy with the >performance. I would like to find out some more about the design length if >anyone knows. > >Peter H ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High temp p-lead wire..... At 09:59 PM 9/27/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Tho not precicely OBAM directed.... > >Bellanca Viking aircraft have a soon-to-be-implemented AD to re- >route p-leads from a common Cannon connector on the left firewall to >separate leads to each side of the upper firewall....somehow the FAA >believes this will result in a safer aircraft after the outbreak of a >fire in the engine compartment ( caused by a related exhaust system >failure which will most likely be a concurrent AD with the p-lead >issue). > > >The question is this.....I've looked at several wire specs, such as >MIL-W-25038/3, and the specs are adequate but there doesn't seem to >be any shielded wire in this spec. Is there such a product? Or is >there another product more suitable? The reason you're not seeing shielded products is that the specification is for WIRE, as soon as you add shielding it becomes a CABLE assembly consisting of some combinations of wire with some over-braid of shield and an outer jacket. One of the popular specs for shielded cable assemblies is Mil-W-27500. See page 17 of: http://www.cambridge-tec.com/pdf/Cable_catalog.pdf As you see here, you can craft a part number for any combination of wire, shielding, and outer jackets to satisfy your every need. Now, write a check for about 10,000' of the stuff and they'll whip out a spool for you. Obviously, there ARE common combinations of wire, shielding and jacket used by the industry where you have a high order probability of finding a suitable wire already in stock on some supplier's shelf. If you're needing a modern wire suitable for shielded p-leads on an SE aircraft, consider the 20 or 18AWG shielded wire per Mil-W-27500 offered by Steinair at: http://steinair.com/wire.htm#SHIELDED%20WIRE Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon I thought I had uploaded Dave's article to my website waaaayyy back when and when I went to look for it, it wasn't there. This is a pretty slick antenna solution for certain situations so I've taken the liberty of adding Dave's work to the archives of the best we know how to do at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Morris_Com_Loop_Antenna.pdf Bob . . . At 12:18 PM 9/28/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Peter, you're correct that while carbon fiber is not as >conductive as aluminum (1000x the sheet resistance) it >IS conductive enough to degrade antenna performance for >devices mounted inside the structure. The loop antenna >you were recalling is cited in this posting from the past: > >Bob . . . > >----------------------------------------- > >If your tailcone has a diameter of around 31 inches, you can try the >Morris Com Loop antenna, which does not require a ground plane and is a >better antenna than the typical quarter wave whip. > >http:www.DaveMorris.com/MorrisComLoop > > >Dave Morris >----------------------------------------- > >At 04:48 PM 9/28/2007 +0100, you wrote: > >>Could I observe that antennae inside carbon structures often don t >>perform very well. On sailplanes the comm antenna is often moulded into >>the fin; however on sailplanes with a carbon fuselage the antenna is >>often installed in the rudder (skinned with glass) for much improved >>transmit & receive performance. >> >> >> >>Peter >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris >>Sent: 27 September 2007 23:02 >>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon >> >> >> >>I once saw an antenna installation using a single loop of wire which was >>glued inside the hull as a full circle and which acted like a toroid, no >>ground plane fitted. The operator claimed he was happy with the >>performance. I would like to find out some more about the design length >>if anyone knows. >> >>Peter H > > >-- >269.13.33/1034 - Release Date: 9/27/2007 5:00 PM > > >incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:17:37 AM PST US From: Michael Pereira Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 37 Msgs - 09/26/07 > >>I don't suppose you read the papers? How many Chinese products have had >>seriousquality problems this year? > > . . . as opposed to how many products have NOT had serious quality > problems? Popular media is the last place one can acquire the > big picture for significance of any particular issue. Yes, > lead in the kiddy-toy paint is the crisis du jour found worthy > of much renting of garments and gnashing of teeth this month. > Next month it will be something else. The free market has nothing to do with > quality or origin of goods and services. In a FREE market, the > buyer is FREE to make a buy-or-pass decision; the seller is > equally FREE to make a sell-or-pass decision. The problem is, in china's case, it's not a free market. China pegs it's currency to the US dollar at an unrealistic rate. Those 21 cent or 37 cent batteries wouldn't be that price if china's currency floated (how much labor can involved in manufacturing aa cells, anyway ?) Why our government allows this one-side economic *warfare* to continue is beyond me. In the past, we allowed small screwed up countries with devastated economies peg their currency to give them a period of stability. The idea being the short term harm to our economy that policy would create would be more than compensated by the long term benefits to our economy of having one less basket case country in the world. The currency problem is hard for our elected officials to fix. I have no idea on how it could be done without threatening wide-spread tariff's that would lead to recession or depression in both this country and china's; if they were ever enacted. Thing is china's government doesn't give a tinker's damn about what their people think (they run tanks over their citizens that whine) so they have an impossible advantage over our "let's get pork to our constituents so we can be elected perpetually" representatives. [ the rest of the 0.21 cent battery stuff snipped ] ----- mjpnj@yahoo.com Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:15 PM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's high torque servo circuit I want to use a wiper motor as a high torque servo on a machine that feeds sheet sheet goods through itself. Motor output shaft is at built-in "Park" position. Sheet edge is placed in position against limit Switch S1(NO) that closes to supply power to motor. S1 is attached to an arm, such that it moves out of the material line of travel (and opens in the process) when the motor output shaft moves the arm. Also attached to the arm is S2 (NC), which contacts the sheet and opens when the arm has moved to a target position. S2 interrupts power to the motor thus holding the output shaft and arm at the target position. When the sheet has passed S2, and it closes, I want the motor to start and return to the built in "park position". I know this is probably child's play for some of you. I am electronically challenged and, aside from being told to "Get a life!", I would like the group's advice. Thanks, John ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:05 PM PST US From: Deems Herring Subject: AeroElectric-List: subject line, digest. Please use an appropriate subject line when replying from a digest or when changing subjects. I think there are others like me who get too many emails to read them all. I sort my mail and "digest" subject lines go to the tras h. I would hate to miss some good information. Deems H > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:15:23 -0700> From: mjpnj@yahoo.com> Subject: Ae roElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 37 Msgs - 09/26/07> To: aero hael Pereira > > > > >> >>I don't suppose you read the pap ers? How many Chinese products have had > >>seriousquality problems this ye ar?> >> > . . . as opposed to how many products have NOT had serious qualit y> > problems? Popular media is the last place one can acquire the> > big p icture for significance of any particular issue. Yes,> > lead in the kiddy- toy paint is the crisis du jour found worthy> > of much renting of garments and gnashing of teeth this month.> > Next month it will be something else. The free market has nothing to do with> > quality or origin of goods and s ervices. In a FREE market, the> > buyer is FREE to make a buy-or-pass decis ion; the seller is> > equally FREE to make a sell-or-pass decision.> > The problem is, in china's case, it's not a free market. China pegs it's curren cy> to the US dollar at an unrealistic rate. Those 21 cent or 37 cent batte ries wouldn't> be that price if china's currency floated (how much labor ca n involved in manufacturing > aa cells, anyway ?) Why our government allows this one-side economic *warfare* to continue > is beyond me. In the past, we allowed small screwed up countries with devastated economies > peg their currency to give them a period of stability. The idea being the short term > harm to our economy that policy would create would be more than compensa ted by the long > term benefits to our economy of having one less basket ca se country in the world.> > The currency problem is hard for our elected of ficials to fix. I have no idea on how it > could be done without threatenin g wide-spread tariff's that would lead to recession or> depression in both this country and china's; if they were ever enacted. Thing is china's > gov ernment doesn't give a tinker's damn about what their people think (they ru n tanks > over their citizens that whine) so they have an impossible advant age over our "let's get > pork to our constituents so we can be elected per petually" representatives. > > [ the rest of the 0.21 cent battery stuff sn ipped ]> > > > -----> mjpnj@yahoo.com> > > > Need a vacation? Get great dea =============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista E ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market At 11:15 AM 9/28/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > >>I don't suppose you read the papers? How many Chinese products have had > >>seriousquality problems this year? > > > > . . . as opposed to how many products have NOT had serious quality > > problems? Popular media is the last place one can acquire the > > big picture for significance of any particular issue. Yes, > > lead in the kiddy-toy paint is the crisis du jour found worthy > > of much renting of garments and gnashing of teeth this month. > > Next month it will be something else. The free market has nothing to > do with > > quality or origin of goods and services. In a FREE market, the > > buyer is FREE to make a buy-or-pass decision; the seller is > > equally FREE to make a sell-or-pass decision. > >The problem is, in china's case, it's not a free market. China pegs it's >currency >to the US dollar at an unrealistic rate. Yes, but how do you START up a free market? We KNOW it cannot be legislated. Government creates no value, it only taxes productivity of others and snags a good percentage of it for its own pockets as the cash goes buy. Given that NO organization can decree a free market into existence what would we propose? Demonstrations? Letters to American leadership? Letters to China's leadership? Sanctions? Letters to the United Nations? Boycotts? It's a demonstrable fact of history that none of these activities has ever produced the intended result. Many times the effect was opposite the intended result. Free markets happen spontaneously in the absence of forces (attacks upon liberty) that prevent them from evolving. The bright star on the horizon for those folks the building of an infrastructure that uses labor to add value to raw materials teamed with communication, transportation and financial conduits to support ANY KIND OF MARKET. Hypothetical: Would you rather stand on a tall building in Bejing or the top of a tree in Africa and preach the doctrine of a free markets? In spite of Africa's rich resources in raw materials and even educable person-power, there is NO infrastructure. The Soviet republics had an opportunity to make the quantum jump into free market world trade because when the empire fell, it had a wobbly but repairable infrastructure. But let us not believe it's a noble thing to cry in our beer and bemoan the ineffectual prattle of governments or heads of world banks. The more China's infrastructure grows, the more difficult it will be for small and dishonorable minds to micro-manage from a central office. The best we can do for the Chinese people is DEMONSTRATE what it means to participate in a free market irrespective of the organizational structure from which they presently suffer. That means continue to make the free-market buy-or-pass decisions of their products based on our perceptions of value. It also means we don't by sub-standard products and/or send them back. When and if those in power finally demonstrate their inability to function in the free market, the folks really doing the work will already have graduated from Free-Market 280. Folks in Africa have only the bushes and mountains to revolt for, the Chinese will have communications, transportation and facilities to fight for. Which battle would you be most willing to risk your life for? The notion that any entity is capable of compelling the Chinese government to "let their people go" is a demonstrable fantasy. But to invite folks to jump the fence to join us in a demonstrably greener pasture generates millions of tiny leaks in dam that no government has EVER been able plug. Some of HF's products suck . . . and I don't buy them. Some of them are good value and I do buy them. We can do no more and we should not do less. To mount a really effective boycott against Chinese products will only reinforce their government resolve, make the Chinese people hungrier, and accomplish nothing of value. If I were to advise Chinese entrepreneurs today I would suggest they develop a marketable health services community. Given the present slide of the Free World's health care, it may well be that our children and grandchildren discover that an airline ticket to China offers a timely and capable alternative to health care available in the United States. Right now it doesn't matter whether they develop a ability by command of the Chinese counterpart to Ted Kennedy or as independent entrepreneurial endeavor. Having it in place after the Great Transition is what's most important. When and if the Great Transition happens for the Chinese people, it could be very EXPENSIVE in both human capital and facilities. What we would hope for is that their remaining ability to produce and sell in a free market makes them an attractive source of goods and services for all of us. The more stuff we can buy from them then, the faster they will recover. Buying lots of useful stuff is the finest form of foreign aid we could offer. Hopefully it's a bloodless revolution that allows them to enroll in Free Market 301 . . . but it may not. In the final analysis it's folks that know how to add value to raw materials and market the products who will prevail. But only if there are good examples to emulate and the tools of production are in place. That's the only thing you and I can do without being a party to attacks on someone's liberties . . . be good examples. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:31 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim Servo Speed Controller THANKS again Robert. Peter H -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, 29 September 2007 1:00 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim Servo Speed Controller > >Same subject if I may ... >I have no space to fit the position indicators offered by Ray Allen but >would like to use an LED to light each extreme position using the wiring >supplied. Does anyone know how to make that work? >Thanks >Peter H See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/Trim_Limits_Annunciator.pdf You can get the parts at Radio Shack ---------------------------- > > >Bob, Did you ever publish a DIY diagram for a speed controller for >the Ray Allen trim servos? Yes. http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Two_Speed_Trim_1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Two_Speed_Trim_2.pdf Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:33 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Peter The application was a glass plane and mine is also. I would like to get design details ie length, diameter ,gain factor and how to match it, to compare with the external bent whip. Probably something in the Google will tell., Peter H _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Saturday, 29 September 2007 1:49 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Could I observe that antennae inside carbon structures often don't perform very well. On sailplanes the comm antenna is often moulded into the fin; however on sailplanes with a carbon fuselage the antenna is often installed in the rudder (skinned with glass) for much improved transmit & receive performance. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris Sent: 27 September 2007 23:02 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon I once saw an antenna installation using a single loop of wire which was glued inside the hull as a full circle and which acted like a toroid, no ground plane fitted. The operator claimed he was happy with the performance. I would like to find out some more about the design length if anyone knows. Peter H _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Friday, 28 September 2007 3:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Hi Dan, I installed antenna ground planes on the outside of my carbon fiber Legacy. Bob is right that there are big advantages of doing it inside the fuselage, but for the comm antenna on the Legacy, it is difficult because of the many obstructions inside. Putting the ground plane on the outside was way easier. I made the comm antenna ground plane out of 1/4" wide adhesive backed copper foil strips available from stained glass supply stores, making them the length that Bob advises. I made eight "spokes" or radials equally spaced around the antenna mounting location. I soldered the foil radials to each other where they met at the center in a way that it would make good contact with the antenna base. Then I covered each foil radial with deck cloth saturated with epoxy to keep the radials permanently attached to the carbon fiber belly. The foil is so thin that with a little body work, it makes a nearly imperceptible bump. Besides, it's on the belly where nobody can see it anyway. I've been flying since March. I have no way of quantifying it, but my experience with the type of long distance cross country flights that the Legacy is suited for, I'm happy with the performance of my radio. Bob has often observed that these unquantified testimonials aren't all that valuable, but it's all I've got and I think it may be better than nothing. The interesting thing is that there are Legacy builders who've done just about every ground plane variation possible, including no ground plane at all, and they all seem satisfied with their antenna's performance. It could be we're worrying over nothing? Dennis - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:59 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon THANKS yet again Bob. Peter H -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, 29 September 2007 4:18 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon Peter, you're correct that while carbon fiber is not as conductive as aluminum (1000x the sheet resistance) it IS conductive enough to degrade antenna performance for devices mounted inside the structure. The loop antenna you were recalling is cited in this posting from the past: Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- If your tailcone has a diameter of around 31 inches, you can try the Morris Com Loop antenna, which does not require a ground plane and is a better antenna than the typical quarter wave whip. http:www.DaveMorris.com/MorrisComLoop Dave Morris ----------------------------------------- At 04:48 PM 9/28/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Could I observe that antennae inside carbon structures often don t perform >very well. On sailplanes the comm antenna is often moulded into the fin; >however on sailplanes with a carbon fuselage the antenna is often >installed in the rudder (skinned with glass) for much improved transmit & >receive performance. > > >Peter > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris >Sent: 27 September 2007 23:02 >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Plane on Carbon > > >I once saw an antenna installation using a single loop of wire which was >glued inside the hull as a full circle and which acted like a toroid, no >ground plane fitted. The operator claimed he was happy with the >performance. I would like to find out some more about the design length if >anyone knows. > >Peter H ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:24 PM PST US From: John Morgensen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Yes, but how do you START up a free market? We KNOW it > cannot be legislated. Government creates no value, it only > taxes productivity of others and snags a good percentage of > it for its own pockets as the cash goes buy. > snip > When and if the Great Transition happens for the > Chinese people, it could be very EXPENSIVE in both > human capital and facilities. What we would hope > for is that their remaining ability to produce and > sell in a free market makes them an attractive > source of goods and services for all of us. The > more stuff we can buy from them then, the faster they > will recover. Buying lots of useful stuff is the > finest form of foreign aid we could offer. > Good points, Bob. I like to think that the "Great Transition" will be as bloodless as the Soviet Union's. The Chinese system is currently a "kinda sort of" representative government in that they do vote for their local representative to the communist party. If you enjoy "Good Value", take a riverboat cruise up the Yangtze river to and through the Three Gorges Dam while the exchange rate is still favorable. Highly recommended. John Morgensen ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim Servo Speed Controller At 07:37 AM 9/29/2007 +1000, you wrote: > > >THANKS again Robert. My pleasure sir. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:50 PM PST US From: Ralph Hoover Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers I must agree with Bob on his response to this but an even simpler analysis is that the writer missed half of the breaker definition and assumed design intent! "AC 23-17B, System and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part 23 Airplanes, (Amendment 23-49 and Subsequent) For part 23 applications, the definitions of a switch and a circuit breaker are as follows: 1) A switch is a device for opening and closing or for changing the connection of a circuit; 2) A circuit breaker is a device designed to open and close a circuit by non-automatic means and to open the circuit automatically at a predetermined overload of current, without injury to itself when properly applied within its rating. Thus, circuit breakers used for operational functions are not acceptable because they are not performing their intended function, which is protection against overloads. " According to the above definition the functions of a breaker are *"open and close a circuit by non-automatic means" *and *"to open the circuit automatically at a predetermined overload of current"*. To conclude using the breaker as a switch is not acceptable assumes that only the second part of the definition is intended. If the breaker is the pullable type then switching is an intended function. If the designers intent was to restrict the use of the breaker as a switch then a non-pullable breaker could be applied. I would assume that if the intent was to restrict the switching function of a pullable breaker then a caution should be applied near the breaker or at least in the operation instructions. Just my two cents. -- Ralph C. Hoover RV7A hooverra at verizon dot net ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market >> When and if the Great Transition happens for the >> Chinese people, it could be very EXPENSIVE in both >> human capital and facilities. What we would hope >> for is that their remaining ability to produce and >> sell in a free market makes them an attractive >> source of goods and services for all of us. The >> more stuff we can buy from them then, the faster they >> will recover. Buying lots of useful stuff is the >> finest form of foreign aid we could offer. > >Good points, Bob. I like to think that the "Great Transition" will be as >bloodless as the Soviet Union's. The Chinese system is currently a "kinda >sort of" representative government in that they do vote for their local >representative to the communist party. Those are good seeds. There are no doubt others. >If you enjoy "Good Value", take a riverboat cruise up the Yangtze river to >and through the Three Gorges Dam while the exchange rate is still >favorable. Highly recommended. I'll take that under advisement. Thank you. I know my wife would love to do it too. I've had some direct email flack about departing from subjects germane to our mission. I had to remind them that my original posting concerned the results of an inquiry into return on investment for some batteries offered by a local store. But even my response to the political retort was do depoliticize the discussion by focusing on fundamentals of economics and human behavior. I think opportunities offered to us by Harbor Freight and others go directly to the goal of maximizing return on our investment of $time$ in crafting an airplane. This is especially true when many of the tools, while perhaps not adequate for the 40-hr/wk professional would do nicely for the construction of one airplane. I bought one of their air-nailers to re-nailed my sub-floors and built one fence. If I never use it again, it's paid for itself! Like the Japanese suppliers of 50 years ago, the folks at Harbor Freight are a fledgling activity with great potential. The thing we can do best for each other and for Harbor Freight is accurately quantify value received for any of their products we might find useful. It can only benefit us both. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:16 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High temp p-lead wire..... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) > The reason you're not seeing shielded products is that > the specification is for WIRE, as soon as you add shielding > it becomes a CABLE As always, I learn something of value. Thanks to Ron and Bob. Perhaps I don't need 10k feet....two orders of magnitude will do nicely..... http://tinyurl.com/22ud4e Now, about that shipping..... Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers At 08:06 PM 9/28/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >I must agree with Bob on his response to this but an even simpler analysis >is that the writer missed half of the breaker definition and assumed >design intent! > >"AC 23-17B, System and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part 23 >Airplanes, (Amendment 23-49 and Subsequent) For part 23 applications, >the definitions of a switch and a circuit breaker are as follows: 1) A >switch is a device for opening and closing or for changing the >connection of a circuit; 2) A circuit breaker is a device designed to >open and close a circuit by non-automatic means and to open the circuit >automatically at a predetermined overload of current, without injury to >itself when properly applied within its rating. Thus, circuit breakers >used for operational functions are not acceptable because they are not >performing their intended function, which is protection against >overloads. " > >According to the above definition the functions of a breaker are *"open >and close a circuit by non-automatic means" *and *"to open the circuit >automatically at a predetermined overload of current"*. To conclude using >the breaker as a switch is not acceptable assumes that only the second >part of the definition is intended. If the breaker is the pullable type >then switching is an intended function. If the designers intent was to >restrict the use of the breaker as a switch then a non-pullable breaker >could be applied. I would assume that if the intent was to restrict the >switching function of a pullable breaker then a caution should be applied >near the breaker or at least in the operation instructions. > >Just my two cents. > >-- >Ralph C. Hoover Interesting take. I missed that. I'm trying to put the gray-matter around: "Thus, circuit breakers used for operational functions are not acceptable because they are not performing their intended function, which is protection against overloads." Does this mean that IF you use a breaker for any purpose, it's first function is for protection and switching is secondary? Therefore, the antithesis would suggest that if one uses a breaker primarily for it's capabilities as a switch and intent for protection is claimed, then the designer is to be shot at dawn? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High temp p-lead wire..... At 08:41 PM 9/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > > The reason you're not seeing shielded products is that > > the specification is for WIRE, as soon as you add shielding > > it becomes a CABLE > >As always, I learn something of value. Thanks to Ron and Bob. > >Perhaps I don't need 10k feet....two orders of magnitude will do >nicely..... > >http://tinyurl.com/22ud4e > >Now, about that shipping..... This is single strand, unshielded wire. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's high torque servo circuit At 12:18 PM 9/28/2007 -0800, you wrote: >I want to use a wiper motor as a high torque servo on a machine that feeds >sheet sheet goods through itself. > >Motor output shaft is at built-in "Park" position. > > Sheet edge is placed in position against limit Switch S1(NO) that > closes to supply power to motor. > >S1 is attached to an arm, such that it moves out of the material line of >travel (and opens in the process) when the motor output shaft moves the arm. > >Also attached to the arm is S2 (NC), which contacts the sheet and opens >when the arm has moved to a target position. S2 interrupts power to the >motor thus holding the output shaft and arm at the target position. > >When the sheet has passed S2, and it closes, I want the motor to start and >return to the built in "park position". I take it some motivation other than your motor removed the sheet? >I know this is probably child's play for some of you. I am electronically >challenged and, aside from being told to "Get a life!", I would like the >group's advice. I'm not sure I have a correct image of your task. Windshield motors are unidirectional . . . I.e. the act of powering it OFF is really a signal to continue rotation in original direction until the park position is reached. I presume you understand this. Do you have the motor and does it have a built-in control card for intermittent ops timing and hi/lo speed control? If it's an older unit with no electronics, then wiring per my present vision is pretty simple. If it has electronics, you'll have to do some experimenting with reference to the target vehicle's wiring diagrams to make it sing, dance and do dishes. It's been a LONG time since I used one of these motors to a task and it had no electronics. However, I dug into my Safarri wipers to fix an intermittent that was subject of a recall. Found a poorly soldered joint which I fixed and the motor ran another 150,000 miles. I recall the car's wiring diagrams being pretty cryptic . . . fortunately the problem was visibly obvious and I didn't need to understand it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (corrected) At 09:06 PM 9/28/2007 -0600, you wrote: At 08:06 PM 9/28/2007 -0400, you wrote: I must agree with Bob on his response to this but an even simpler analysis is that the writer missed half of the breaker definition and assumed design intent! "AC 23-17B, System and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part 23 Airplanes, (Amendment 23-49 and Subsequent) For part 23 applications, the definitions of a switch and a circuit breaker are as follows: 1) A switch is a device for opening and closing or for changing the connection of a circuit; 2) A circuit breaker is a device designed to open and close a circuit by non-automatic means and to open the circuit automatically at a predetermined overload of current, without injury to itself when properly applied within its rating. Thus, circuit breakers used for operational functions are not acceptable because they are not performing their intended function, which is protection against overloads. " According to the above definition the functions of a breaker are *"open and close a circuit by non-automatic means" *and *"to open the circuit automatically at a predetermined overload of current"*. To conclude using the breaker as a switch is not acceptable assumes that only the second part of the definition is intended. If the breaker is the pullable type then switching is an intended function. If the designers intent was to restrict the use of the breaker as a switch then a non-pullable breaker could be applied. I would assume that if the intent was to restrict the switching function of a pullable breaker then a caution should be applied near the breaker or at least in the operation instructions. Just my two cents. -- Ralph C. Hoover Interesting take. I missed that. I'm trying to put the gray-matter around: "Thus, circuit breakers used for operational functions are not acceptable because they are not performing their intended function, which is protection against overloads." Does this mean that IF you use a breaker for any purpose, it's first function is for protection and switching is secondary? Therefore, the antithesis would suggest that if one uses a breaker primarily for it's capabilities as a switch and NO intent for protection is claimed, then the designer is to be shot at dawn? Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.