AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sun 09/30/07


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:09 AM - Re: Retractable Landing Light (Rob Turk)
     2. 05:49 AM - Re: Retractable Landing Light (Chuck Jensen)
     3. 06:41 AM - Re: Retractable Landing Light (Steve Thomas)
     4. 07:12 AM - Re: Mode S on the ground? (Darwin N. Barrie)
     5. 08:17 AM - Re: Retractable Landing Light (Chuck Jensen)
     6. 09:21 AM -  (John Burnaby)
     7. 11:10 AM - Re:  (Charlie England)
     8. 11:33 AM - Toggle switch needed (Paul Eckenroth)
     9. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: FAA policy on circuit breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 12:14 PM - Re: Toggle switch needed (JOHN TIPTON)
    11. 12:22 PM - Re: Toggle switch needed (JOHN TIPTON)
    12. 02:14 PM - Re: Poor man's hi torque servo circuit (John Burnaby)
    13. 02:24 PM - Re: Toggle switch needed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 03:28 PM - Re: Poor man's hi torque servo circuit (John Burnaby)
    15. 10:19 PM - Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers (MaxNr@aol.com)
    16. 11:17 PM - Re: Re: FAA policy on circuit breakers (Jim Oke)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:09:33 AM PST US
    From: "Rob Turk" <matronics@rtist.nl>
    Subject: Re: Retractable Landing Light
    That's a cool looking unit, but the specs mention "automotive lamps". Would that get your precious A320 into the Experimental category?? ;-) Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Thomas To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 1:14 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Retractable Landing Light Some time ago there was some discussion on this topic. I don't remember, but someone (maybe Bob?) was going to look into a design for a retractable landing light. Anything new to report on this? I found one really slick one. See: http://tinyurl.com/3bapfy but it is designed for an Airbus 320. Steve


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:49:42 AM PST US
    Subject: Retractable Landing Light
    From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
    Wow, that looks like the same unit I have on my Velo, but I need to reread the specs. I thought I couldn't deploy it above 140 kts...its actually 340 kts. Well that makes more sense. I was having to wait until just before touch down to turn it one--that'll be a lot handier to be able to use it in the pattern. :) Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Thomas Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:14 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Retractable Landing Light Some time ago there was some discussion on this topic. I don't remember, but someone (maybe Bob?) was going to look into a design for a retractable landing light. Anything new to report on this? I found one really slick one. See: <http://tinyurl.com/3bapfy> http://tinyurl.com/3bapfy but it is designed for an Airbus 320. Steve


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:41:19 AM PST US
    From: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
    Subject: Re: Retractable Landing Light
    Chuck, where did you get the one for your Velo? Best Regards, Steve ____________________________________________________________________ On Sep 30, 2007, at 5:45 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote: > Wow, that looks like the same unit I have on my Velo, but I need to > reread the specs. I thought I couldn't deploy it above 140 > kts...its actually 340 kts. Well that makes more sense. I was > having to wait until just before touch down to turn it one--that'll > be a lot handier to be able to use it in the pattern. :) > > Chuck


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:12:51 AM PST US
    From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Mode S on the ground?
    The system works on "line of sight" with the source radar. So, if you meet that criteria you should be able to get information. It doesn't take much to block the radar. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ RV7 N717EE


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:17:42 AM PST US
    Subject: Retractable Landing Light
    From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
    At AirBus' Discount Dollar Store. Great selection but the minimum order of $100,000 can be a problem. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Thomas Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:38 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Retractable Landing Light Chuck, where did you get the one for your Velo? Best Regards, Steve ____________________________________________________________________ On Sep 30, 2007, at 5:45 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote: Wow, that looks like the same unit I have on my Velo, but I need to reread the specs. I thought I couldn't deploy it above 140 kts...its actually 340 kts. Well that makes more sense. I was having to wait until just before touch down to turn it one--that'll be a lot handier to be able to use it in the pattern. :) Chuck


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:21:04 AM PST US
    From: "John Burnaby" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    Subject:
    Yes, another motor moves the sheet.RE the wiper motor being unidirectional, The thought was, as Charlie suggested, to stop the motor at BDC, when S2 opened, and when the sheet moved from contact with S2, now closed, the motor would continue to run back to the "Park" position. The departure from Charlie's example is that the cycle shouldn't require any other operator input beyond depression of S1. This being a DC motor, could not the power leads be swapped for the motor to run in reverse, if desired?Here's the motor and its terminals. http://www.scary-terry.com/wipmtr/wipmtr2.htm>I want to use a wiper motor as a high torque servo on a machine that feeds >sheet sheet goods through itself. > >Motor output shaft is at built-in "Park" position. > > Sheet edge is placed in position against limit Switch S1(NO) that > closes to supply power to motor. > >S1 is attached to an arm, such that it moves out of the material line of >travel (and opens in the process) when the motor output shaft moves the arm. > >Also attached to the arm is S2 (NC), which contacts the sheet and opens >when the arm has moved to a target position. S2 interrupts power to the >motor thus holding the output shaft and arm at the target position. > >When the sheet has passed S2, and it closes, I want the motor to start and >return to the built in "park position". I take it some motivation other than your motor removed the sheet? >I know this is probably child's play for some of you. I am electronically >challenged and, aside from being told to "Get a life!", I would like the >group's advice. I'm not sure I have a correct image of your task. Windshield motors are unidirectional . . . I.e. the act of powering it OFF is really a signal to continue rotation in original direction until the park position is reached. I presume you understand this. Do you have the motor and does it have a built-in control card for intermittent ops timing and hi/lo speed control? If it's an older unit with no electronics, then wiring per my present vision is pretty simple. If it has electronics, you'll have to do some experimenting with reference to the target vehicle's wiring diagrams to make it sing, dance and do dishes. It's been a LONG time since I used one of these motors to a task and it had no electronics. However, I dug into my Safarri wipers to fix an intermittent that was subject of a recall. Found a poorly soldered joint which I fixed and the motor ran another 150,000 miles. I recall the car's wiring diagrams being pretty cryptic . . . fortunately the problem was visibly obvious and I didn't need to understand it. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:10:36 AM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: ectric-List:
    John Burnaby wrote: > *Yes, another motor moves the sheet.* > > *RE the wiper motor being unidirectional, The thought was, as Charlie suggested,* > > * to stop the motor at BDC, when S2 opened, and when the sheet moved from* > > * contact with S2, now closed, the motor would continue to run back to the "Park" position. * > > *The departure from Charlie's example is that the cycle shouldn't require any* > > * other operator input beyond depression of S1. This being a DC motor, * > > *could not the power leads be swapped for the motor to run in reverse, if desired?* > > *Here's the motor and its terminals. * > > http://www.scary-terry.com/wipmtr/wipmtr2.htm > > ** > snipped If something else is moving the sheet, allowing S2 to close, then the motor should restart & run back to 'home' position.


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:33:19 AM PST US
    From: "Paul Eckenroth" <Jeckenroth@NBN.NET>
    Subject: Toggle switch needed
    Greetings I am looking for a replacement toggle switch for the S700-2-5 which is used for the left mag (off - on - start). I have never been comfortable with the possibility of continuing to start when moving from off to on during the run up mag check. I would like to replace with a toggle switch incorporating a lock on the momentary start position (up). Any suggestions would be welcome except to incorporate an additional switch or start button. Paul Eckenroth RIVA flying


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:00:54 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: FAA policy on circuit breakers
    At 08:11 PM 9/29/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi John, >Remember that a number of type certificated aircraft are equiped with >circuit breakers such as the P&B W31 series that are intended to be >routinely used for switching devices on and off, as well as providing >circuit protection. Of course that is from the CAA days, when the feds >actually had some folks that knew something. Lets see, my TC aircraft has >boost pump, pitot heat, rotating beacon, nav lights and landing lights on >such breakers on its type certificate, and a couple more added later for >STC approved equipment.The only failure mode I have seen is the internal >springs get weak with age and they can nuisance trip, at which point they >are due for replacement. The W31 switch breakers don't exercise the components that calibrate circuit breaker trip when the switch portion is operated. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/W31_3.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/W31_2.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/W31_1.jpg Note that the trip latch and heater strut maintain a constant, non-moving relationship with each other as the switch side transitions the contacts from closed to open. Here's an excerpt from a posting I did about 2 years ago on this product: --------------- These are the switch breakers I've mentioned on several occasions in the past and featured in the comic book at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Breakers/Breakers.html The failure mode cited is NOT a short but an open that causes the load path to shift. In the picture at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/W31_3.jpg you can see the two copper wire jumpers across moving joints made up of little ropes of exceedingly fine strands of wire. These are RATED at many thousands of cycles on the data sheet . . . but it seems that the sum total of environmental stresses as-installed are such that these critters fail in a few thousand cycles. The failure begins as a breaking (or fusing) of the last remaining strands of jumper. This happens in the upper jumper. When that pathway is lost, the switch-breaker's current still flows through the spring that is intended to open the switch contacts when the lever is moved to OFF. This spring is capable of carrying current in the switch-breakers of smaller size . . . 5A and 10A but in the Prop DeIce circuit of a Bonanza or Baron, the current is so great as to cause the spring to glow cherry red and cause surrounding plastic cases to char. This is what produces the smoke. The amount of smoke was not nearly worthy of the doom and gloom inferred by the AD. The "fix" was to insert the plastic insulating sheet you can see in the inside, upper left corner of the metal frame. This prevents the spring from becoming a secondary load path and the breaker fails passively by simply allowing the downstream load to go OFF. Cessna's decision to use this product as a master switch-breaker was unfortunate. There was no need for this device to be a breaker too. Selection of this part drove parts count up and drove reliability down. If you must have an avionics master switch, the plain-jane toggle is the device of choice. Better yet, leave it out entirely. ------------------------- Switch=breakers are an entirely different breed of cat. They're not vulnerable to the adverse performance conditions demonstrated by routinely using a pull-type circuit breaker as an operating switch. This is also a separate issue from the discussion about adverse effects on a switched system whether by pulling a breaker or interrupting power by any other means. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 12:14:18 PM PST US
    From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    Subject: Re: Toggle switch needed
    Aircraft - Spruce has the switch you need ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eckenroth" <Jeckenroth@NBN.NET> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:30 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toggle switch needed > <Jeckenroth@NBN.NET> > > Greetings > > I am looking for a replacement toggle switch for the S700-2-5 which is > used for the left mag (off - on - start). I have never been comfortable > with the possibility of continuing to start when moving from off to on > during the run up mag check. I would like to replace with a toggle switch > incorporating a lock on the momentary start position (up). > > Any suggestions would be welcome except to incorporate an additional > switch or start button. > > Paul Eckenroth > RIVA flying > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:22:08 PM PST US
    From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    Subject: Re: Toggle switch needed
    Sorry: not Aircraft Spruce Eaton Corporation - http://www.commercialcontrols.eaton.com/VCBU/catalog/commcat2/TF300_10.pdf page: A14 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eckenroth" <Jeckenroth@NBN.NET> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:30 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toggle switch needed > <Jeckenroth@NBN.NET> > > Greetings > > I am looking for a replacement toggle switch for the S700-2-5 which is > used for the left mag (off - on - start). I have never been comfortable > with the possibility of continuing to start when moving from off to on > during the run up mag check. I would like to replace with a toggle switch > incorporating a lock on the momentary start position (up). > > Any suggestions would be welcome except to incorporate an additional > switch or start button. > > Paul Eckenroth > RIVA flying > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:14:25 PM PST US
    From: "John Burnaby" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    Subject: Re: Poor man's hi torque servo circuit
    >snipped >If something else is moving the sheet, allowing S2 to close, then the >motor should restart & run back to 'home' position.The wiper motor's primary function is to actuate a pinch roller, thus engaging the sheet goods to a drive roller that carries them through the machine. S2 is mounted on the pinch roller arm to sense the presence of a sheet. When S2(NC) contacts the sheet and opens, it should stop the wiper motor at BDC. When the sheet passes and S2 closes, the motor activates and moves from BDC to "Park". At least, that's the plan.


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:24:31 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Toggle switch needed
    At 08:15 PM 9/30/2007 +0100, you wrote: ><jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > >Sorry: not Aircraft Spruce > >Eaton Corporation - >http://www.commercialcontrols.eaton.com/VCBU/catalog/commcat2/TF300_10.pdf > >page: A14 > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eckenroth" <Jeckenroth@NBN.NET> >To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:30 PM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toggle switch needed > > >><Jeckenroth@NBN.NET> >> >>Greetings >> >>I am looking for a replacement toggle switch for the S700-2-5 which is >>used for the left mag (off - on - start). I have never been comfortable >>with the possibility of continuing to start when moving from off to on >>during the run up mag check. I would like to replace with a toggle >>switch incorporating a lock on the momentary start position (up). You need a microswtich 2TL1-5L as described in http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/tl_series.pdf Now, the fun part is to find it in stock anywhere. Leverlock switches tend to be special orders. The mil-spec is MS24659-31L You will probably find more folks who know what it is by the mil-spec number . . . but finding real parts will be the challenge. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:28:28 PM PST US
    From: "John Burnaby" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    Subject: Re: Poor man's hi torque servo circuit
    Previous post should have read:>snipped>If something else is moving the sheet, allowing S2 to close, then the >motor should restart & run back to 'home' position.Charlie,That's the idea. What I don't know how to do is how to use the closed S1 as a signal for the wiper motor to start AND remain powered until S2 senses the sheet and shuts off power to the wiper motor, now at BDC. S1 drops out of the sheet path and opens so I can't use it in series with S2.


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:19:55 PM PST US
    From: MaxNr@aol.com
    Subject: Re: FAA Policy on Circuit Breakers
    I have been lurking on this list for a while trying to learn a little about electrical systems, but I cannot bite my tongue any longer. As stated in AC 120-80, the manufacturer many times in the Flight Manual includes the use of C.B.s to disable systems to check systems on run up or to deal with in flight malfunctions or emergencies. Some C.B.s have colored collars to help in locating in emergencies. Available at ACS, Sporties and other fine shops. The last A/C (Sikorsky 76 series) that I flew before retiring was such an A/C. Most C.B.s don't even have a corresponding on/of switch. I have a lot of war stories where we got things back under control by finding and pulling the right C.B. Chip lights for example. As for resetting in flight: About 25 years ago, I was single pilot, had passengers on board and trying to land in heavy rain. The Pilot's Windshield Wiper C.B. repeatedly popped. I used my emergency options as PIC to hold the C.B. in and chance a fire in order to land (one handed) safely. You got to do what you got to do. There was no fire, maintenance readjusted the wiper tension and all was fine. As for simulating EFIS failure, they all have a brightness knob and you can make it go dark that way. It will then go into reversion mode for you. I discussed the subject bulletin this evening with my friend who is a Maint Inspector/AI for my old company. He lost it. The only thing that he said that was printable on a family web site was something about "know nothing white shirts hiding in the FAA office." Sorry for pouring gas on a fire. I'm retired remember. RTD **************************************


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:17:51 PM PST US
    From: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: FAA policy on circuit breakers
    Kevin Horton wrote: > <khorton01@rogers.com> > > On 29 Sep 2007, at 14:34, John W. Cox wrote: > >> To second a comment that was projected earlier, I do not consider >> installation of CBs on the primary flight instrument panel to be a >> prudent use of valuable real estate. Nor are they particularly >> aesthetically pleasing to look at for the life of the panel. Leaves a >> conundrum as to where to place them, how easy to read/see which one pops >> Open and how easy to open them when necessary as a procedural switch >> during that rare occurrence. > > > I agree that CBs should be located so that they can be confirmed as IN > during pre-flight checks. But once you are in flight, I am not > convinced that we need easy view or access. Typically the first sign > of a problem is when you notice that some piece of equipment is no > longer functioning. At that point, does it really matter whether the > failure is caused by a popped CB, a wire that has come off a terminal, > or a failure of the item itself? Why do you need to be able to easily > see the CB? > > If a piece of equipment has a potential failure mode that would > require removing its power supply, it should probably be wired through > a switch, or you should plan on killing power to the bus that powers > it (only acceptable if you can accept the loss of all other items on > that bus). You shouldn't plan on pulling the CB, as they can > sometimes be very difficult to grab on to. > > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 One example of the situation Kevin describes in his second paragraph is the aileron trim on the FAR 25 aircraft I fly in my 'day' job. If it quits dead due to motor burn out somewhere near the neutral position that's one thing. If the operating rocker switch fails so as to drive it to full travel in one or the other direction that's another and probably more demanding situation with obvious aircraft handling implications. The manufacturer's procedure for a runaway trim is to attempt to use the operating switch to drive the trim to neutral and then pull the associated circuit breaker to stop the trim in something close to the neutral position. In this case there are lots of circuit breakers relatively easy to access from the pilot seats so not really an issue to add one more for the aileron trim for the once in 10,000 (or whatever) flying hour that it needs to be pulled to disable the trim. The alternative would be to add a dedicated trim disable switch that would add parts and likely decrease overall reliability. Of note, just about all the other 120 or so CBs on the airplane are treated as "never reset except in dire emergency" devices. Jim Oke RV-6A Wpg., MB




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