---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/20/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:11 AM - Re: Fiber Washer (Peter Mather) 2. 01:31 AM - TurboCad symbols (B Tomm) 3. 01:46 AM - Turbocad symbols (B Tomm) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: Fiber Washer (paul wilson) 5. 06:18 AM - Re: Fiber Washer (Harry Manvel) 6. 06:51 AM - Re: Turbocad symbols (Andrew Butler) 7. 12:17 PM - Re: Fiber Washer (Emrath) 8. 12:17 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Fiber Washer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 01:04 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (B Tomm) 11. 01:07 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (B Tomm) 12. 02:16 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (Bob White) 13. 03:25 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (Ken) 14. 04:02 PM - LV warning module with EFIS (Donald J Smith) 15. 05:00 PM - Re: LV warning module with EFIS (Kevin Horton) 16. 05:33 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols () 17. 06:33 PM - Re: LV warning module with EFIS (mosquito56) 18. 06:45 PM - Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (mosquito56) 19. 10:15 PM - Re: LV warning module with EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 10:15 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 11:05 PM - Re: Turbocad symbols (B Tomm) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:29 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fiber Washer Marty I used a very short section of heat shrink on the threads that go through the panel and then a couple of disks of transparent plastic cut from a some old packaging with a holes made with an appropriately sized hole punch - works fine Best Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emrath" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:44 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fiber Washer > > Can anyone tell me where to get a fiber washer insulator set for a 1/8 > (aka > 3.5mm) panel mount jack? This jack requires a 1/4" hole. This will > insulate the jack from the panel and be used for connecting a ipod to my > audio panel. If these are not available, what have others done to insulate > the ground connection from the panel. > > Marty in Brentwood TN > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:31:54 AM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: AeroElectric-List: TurboCad symbols Bob, OK, where does one obtain the symbols you use in your drawings so that I can import and customize my wiring diagrams? I just bought Turbo Cad 14 but it doesn't include much for symbols. At least for what I can find. Bevan TurboCad rookie RV7A waiting for wires ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:47 AM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols There must be a way to copy and move symbols already on the drawing but I cannot find it if it's there. There must be others that are or will be on the steep part of the "learning Cad" curve. Any advice as to how to quickly get some drawings done. I'm beginning to think about just hand drawing these suckers and getting on with it. Not very professional looking but hey, this Cad stuff is adding a lot of time. Bevan RV7A waiting for wire and getting frustrated ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:35 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fiber Washer If one can find a suitable insulting material.Then make your own washers. Harbor Freight sells hollow punches. They come in various sizes. A quick smack with a hammer makes the washer makes OD then another makes the inside hole. Thin nylon make good insulating washers. Make 2 washers for a step washer. Only limited by the punch sizes. However thin tubing will also punch holes in insulating material. Just sharpen the tube and is will cut things like plastic. Try the hobby store for choices of tubing. More fun as an experimenter. Tubing around the conductor is another way, then only one flat washer is needed. Paul =========== At 10:07 PM 10/19/2007, you wrote: > > >At 04:44 PM 10/19/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >> >>Can anyone tell me where to get a fiber washer insulator set for a 1/8 (aka >>3.5mm) panel mount jack? This jack requires a 1/4" hole. This will >>insulate the jack from the panel and be used for connecting a ipod to my >>audio panel. If these are not available, what have others done to insulate >>the ground connection from the panel. >> >>Marty in Brentwood TN > > This is an "odd" sized fiber washer for the > a/c industry. I've seen them available on special > order in bags of 100 or 1,000 but never in ones > for end users. > > See http://mcmaster.com and do a search for > > 93920A160 This washer has a 1/4" clearance > hole, extends a .03" barrel through a 5/16" > hole and has a .5" x .04" flange. > > A mating flat washer would be 90089A315 > > Bags of 100 will cost you about $20 total. Considering > how much $time$ you might spend looking for > a few, these might be the lower cost solution. > > Alternatively, consider drilling holes in the sheet > metal that will clear all the jack's hardware, probably > .5" > > Back up the holes with a sheet of 1/16" fiberglas or > phenolic sheet. Then drill 1/4" holes in fiberglas > to mount the jacks. The insulator sheet can be > bonded into place with something like E6000 to > avoid adding any visible, extra holes in the panel. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:14 AM PST US From: "Harry Manvel" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fiber Washer Go to www.mcmaster.com. Enter "fiber washer" in the search window. They have anything you could want. Harry Manvel ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul wilson" Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fiber Washer > > If one can find a suitable insulting material.Then make your own washers. > Harbor Freight sells hollow punches. They come in various sizes. A quick > smack with a hammer makes the washer makes OD then another makes the > inside hole. Thin nylon make good insulating washers. Make 2 washers for a > step washer. Only limited by the punch sizes. However thin tubing will > also punch holes in insulating material. Just sharpen the tube and is will > cut things like plastic. Try the hobby store for choices of tubing. More > fun as an experimenter. > Tubing around the conductor is another way, then only one flat washer is > needed. > Paul > =========== > > At 10:07 PM 10/19/2007, you wrote: >> >> >>At 04:44 PM 10/19/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> >>>Can anyone tell me where to get a fiber washer insulator set for a 1/8 >>>(aka >>>3.5mm) panel mount jack? This jack requires a 1/4" hole. This will >>>insulate the jack from the panel and be used for connecting a ipod to my >>>audio panel. If these are not available, what have others done to >>>insulate >>>the ground connection from the panel. >>> >>>Marty in Brentwood TN >> >> This is an "odd" sized fiber washer for the >> a/c industry. I've seen them available on special >> order in bags of 100 or 1,000 but never in ones >> for end users. >> >> See http://mcmaster.com and do a search for >> >> 93920A160 This washer has a 1/4" clearance >> hole, extends a .03" barrel through a 5/16" >> hole and has a .5" x .04" flange. >> >> A mating flat washer would be 90089A315 >> >> Bags of 100 will cost you about $20 total. Considering >> how much $time$ you might spend looking for >> a few, these might be the lower cost solution. >> >> Alternatively, consider drilling holes in the sheet >> metal that will clear all the jack's hardware, probably >> .5" >> >> Back up the holes with a sheet of 1/16" fiberglas or >> phenolic sheet. Then drill 1/4" holes in fiberglas >> to mount the jacks. The insulator sheet can be >> bonded into place with something like E6000 to >> avoid adding any visible, extra holes in the panel. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:32 AM PST US From: "Andrew Butler" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols Hi Bevan, I used Visio. Much easier to learn than AutoCad and it will import CAD drawings. That is what I did and a couple of days ago I posted my design for comments (having saved it to PDF), so you can see the results are just as good as doing it in CAD. If you end up using Visio, I can send you my visio's if you wish to help you along. There are some idiosyncrasies in the the conversion process. Don't know how much it costs. Andrew. RV71700, Galway Ireland. ----- Original Message ----- From: "B Tomm" To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:44:05 -0700 There must be a way to copy and move symbols already on the drawing but I cannot find it if it's there. There must be others that are or will be on the steep part of the "learning Cad" curve. Any advice as to how to quickly get some drawings done. I'm beginning to think about just hand drawing these suckers and getting on with it. Not very professional looking but hey, this Cad stuff is adding a lot of time. Bevan RV7A waiting for wire and getting frustrated =========== =========== =========== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:31 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fiber Washer Thanks Bob, I forgot to check McMaster for this. I wonder what others are doing to insulate their music input jacks or is that not needed? What about not insulating the jack (this is for stereo music input), and just run a ground wire from the "LO" to my single point ground point? --------------------> Lo --------------q left channel ------------------p right channel Marty Time: 08:08:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fiber Washer At 04:44 PM 10/19/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Can anyone tell me where to get a fiber washer insulator set for a 1/8 >(aka >3.5mm) panel mount jack? This jack requires a 1/4" hole. This will >insulate the jack from the panel and be used for connecting a ipod to my >audio panel. If these are not available, what have others done to insulate >the ground connection from the panel. > >Marty in Brentwood TN This is an "odd" sized fiber washer for the a/c industry. I've seen them available on special order in bags of 100 or 1,000 but never in ones for end users. See http://mcmaster.com and do a search for 93920A160 This washer has a 1/4" clearance hole, extends a .03" barrel through a 5/16" hole and has a .5" x .04" flange. A mating flat washer would be 90089A315 Bags of 100 will cost you about $20 total. Considering how much $time$ you might spend looking for a few, these might be the lower cost solution. Alternatively, consider drilling holes in the sheet metal that will clear all the jack's hardware, probably .5" Back up the holes with a sheet of 1/16" fiberglas or phenolic sheet. Then drill 1/4" holes in fiberglas to mount the jacks. The insulator sheet can be bonded into place with something like E6000 to avoid adding any visible, extra holes in the panel. Bob . . . Marty =D2=D3=AC ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols At 01:44 AM 10/20/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >There must be a way to copy and move symbols already on the drawing but I >cannot find it if it's there. There must be others that are or will be on >the steep part of the "learning Cad" curve. Any advice as to how to quickly >get some drawings done. I'm beginning to think about just hand drawing >these suckers and getting on with it. Not very professional looking but >hey, this Cad stuff is adding a lot of time. > >Bevan >RV7A waiting for wire and getting frustrated I took some time today to sift through the symbol library, rename files for better organization, correct errors and delete some junk. The "clean" library is posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Symbols_Library/Symbols_5.zip Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fiber Washer At 02:15 PM 10/20/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, I forgot to check McMaster for this. I wonder what others are >doing to insulate their music input jacks or is that not needed? What about >not insulating the jack (this is for stereo music input), and just run a >ground wire from the "LO" to my single point ground point? > >--------------------> Lo >--------------q left channel > ------------------p right channel Any outlying component of your avionics/audio system (like mic, phones and audio input jacks) that has a "mounting ground" should be isolated from the airframe. This includes virtually all of the jacks for full size and miniature plugs where the plug "barrel" is one of the system's connections. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:42 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols Thanks Bob, I've downloaded them, unzipped them but cannot open them with Turbo Cad. Without wasting your time on this , is there a simple off the top of your head explanation how to get the symbols into a usable format inside the symbols library? Thanks Bevan ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:52 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols When I try to open a symbol, it says the .DWG file is not a win32 application. Any thoughts on this? My computer is a PC if that makes any difference Bevan ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:15 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:07:20 -0700 "B Tomm" wrote: > > When I try to open a symbol, it says the .DWG file is not a win32 > application. Any thoughts on this? > > My computer is a PC if that makes any difference > > Bevan Hi Bevan, You have to associate .dwg with TurboCAD. I haven't used Windows in quite a while so I don't know the procedure. For a symbol library, run TurboCAD and see what settings they have for libraries. There should be a way to set the path to the library file. You may just have to set the path to the directory where the symbol .dwg files are located, or there might be an import function of some sort. While in TurboCAD, you should be able to open a .dwg file without the association. That just lets you run the application by clicking on the data file. Clicking on a .doc file runs Word for example. Bob W. -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:43 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols I seem to recall opening two files and just copying symbols one at a time from Bob's drawing to my drawing as needed. Ken Bob White wrote: > >On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:07:20 -0700 >"B Tomm" wrote: > > > >> >> When I try to open a symbol, it says the .DWG file is not a win32 >>application. Any thoughts on this? >> >>My computer is a PC if that makes any difference >> >>Bevan >> >> > >Hi Bevan, > >You have to associate .dwg with TurboCAD. I haven't used Windows in >quite a while so I don't know the procedure. For a symbol library, run >TurboCAD and see what settings they have for libraries. There should be >a way to set the path to the library file. You may just have to set >the path to the directory where the symbol .dwg files are located, or >there might be an import function of some sort. While in TurboCAD, you >should be able to open a .dwg file without the association. That just >lets you run the application by clicking on the data file. Clicking on >a .doc file runs Word for example. > >Bob W. > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:02 PM PST US From: "Donald J Smith" Subject: AeroElectric-List: LV warning module with EFIS Is it necessary to have a LV warning module when using an EFIS? Many (eg stratomastor Enigma) have alarm and warning functions that will warn of a low voltage occurrence. Ref Z16 in Aeroelectric connection. Regards Donald J Smith ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:49 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LV warning module with EFIS On 20 Oct 2007, at 19:04, Donald J Smith wrote: > > > Is it necessary to have a LV warning module when using an EFIS? > Many (eg > stratomastor Enigma) have alarm and warning functions that will > warn of a > low voltage occurrence. If you are unhappy with the consequences of a total electrical failure, then you should ensure that you have active notification of an alternator failure. A low voltage warning, with a very noticeable warning, is a good way to do that, as a low system voltage is a good indication of an alternator failure. It really doesn't matter whether the low voltage warning is provided by a separate low voltage warning system, or whether it is provided by some other system (engine monitor, EFIS, etc), as long as it is effective. If you are convinced that the low voltage warning provided by the EFIS will be quickly noticeable, then it should be all you need. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:31 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols > Bob White wrote: > > > > >On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:07:20 -0700 > >"B Tomm" wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> When I try to open a symbol, it says the .DWG file is not 'a win32 > >>application. Any thoughts on this? > >> > >>My computer is a PC if that makes any difference > >> Right click on the file icon. Select properties and then select "open with" then select turbocad from the list of programs. There will be a box that you check that makes sure that Windows associates .dwg files with turbocad everytime you try to open a .dwg file. Hope that works for you. Jerry ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:56 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LV warning module with EFIS From: "mosquito56" Thanks for the question and the answer. I will put low voltage on my checklist when I install my electrical system. I am just getting started and gleaming every morsel of info I from the list. Have a good one. Don -------- Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx Apologies if I seem antagonistic. I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140939#140939 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:53 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation From: "mosquito56" As I understand it right now, that fantastic panel only has 3 guages in it. I see an an altitude indicator a speed indicator a VSI. Is the dynon efis system legal as minimul flight instruments for EX-AB? I'm sure I could look it up but to lazy right now. Don -------- Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx Apologies if I seem antagonistic. I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140940#140940 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LV warning module with EFIS At 12:04 AM 10/21/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > >Is it necessary to have a LV warning module when using an EFIS? Many (eg >stratomastor Enigma) have alarm and warning functions that will warn of a >low voltage occurrence. > >Ref Z16 in Aeroelectric connection. You only need one LV warning system. You choose. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols At 06:23 PM 10/20/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >I seem to recall opening two files and just copying symbols one at a time >from Bob's drawing to my drawing as needed. >Ken I'm not a TurboCAD user so I'm fishing in the dark here a bit. The process for using symbols is to first begin with a blank drawing. Open TurboCAD then within TurboCAD say File_Open and then click on say Wirebook_A_Border.dwg. Once the border is brought in, do a File_SaveAs and give it a name for a diagram you want to create, say Landing_Lights. Save it to a directory OTHER than were your symbol library is stored. Now, you can Insert_File and pick pieces from the symbol library. You'll need a Bus_Tap_Fuse, a switch, a lamp symbol, etc. You arrange these blocks on a page and hook them up with wires. Then add descriptive text like reference designators, part numbers, etc. Suggest you begin with one of the Wire Books published on the website. Download: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Wirebook_Samples/SEMINAR.DWG into the directory where your wirebook is going tor reside. Then open TurboCAD before using TurboCAD to open SEMINAR.DWG. Do an immediate SAVEAS under the name for your own wirebook. On the pages within this drawing, the majority of what you'll need is probably already drawn. Edit this drawing to delete features you don't need and add features you will need. You "insert" items from the symbol library as needed. When I'm teaching AutoCAD, I start with this list of basic drawing commands: AR, *ARRAY B, *BLOCK WB, *WRITEBLOCK BR, *BREAK CI, *CIRCLE C, *CHANGE CH, *CHAMFER CO, *COPY D, *DIMSTYLE DI, *DIST DO, *DONUT DT, *DTEXT E, *ERASE ED, *DDEDIT EL, *ELLIPSE XT, *EXTEND EXIT, *QUIT F, *FILLET H, *HATCH I, *INSERT IP, *ISOPLANE L, *LINE LA, *LAYER LI, *LIST LT, *LINETYPE M, *MOVE MI, *MIRROR OF, *OFFSET OS, *OSNAP P, *PAN PE, *PEDIT PL, *PLINE PG, *POLYGON P, *PAN R, *REDRAW RG, *REGEN RT, *RECTANGLE REN *RENAME RO, *ROTATE S, *STRETCH SC, *SCALE SCR, *SCRIPT T, *TRIM V, *VIEW XP, *EXPLODE Z, *ZOOM Additionally, you'll need to explore and grasp the use of object snap commands like Intersection Center End Tangent Perpendicular Nearest and Insertion. I think you'll find it much easier to modify an existing array of pages as opposed to starting from scratch. Do you have a TurboCAD tutorial? I just opened my TurboCAD version 10 that I purchased off Ebay some months ago. It sees to open and/or insert items from the symbol library just fine. TurboCAD also recognizes the AutoCAD views I assigned to each page in the composite drawing . . . I'm pretty sure this software will let you do anything needed to craft your own wirebook but you'll have to become familiar with the basic drawing and editing commands unique to TurboCAD. I was able to copy and edit text and print one view at a time to the printer. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:27 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols Bob and all, Thanks for all the help here. I worked on it until 3:30 this AM and again today after a long nap. I'm doing much better now. The plan at the moment is to begin with existing drawings and moving, copying symbols to get it to be what it needs to be. So far so good. A few more hours and I'll be on my way. Thanks again for all the input received. This list is a great resource. Bevan Wires are beginning to know where they are supposed to go. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad symbols --> At 06:23 PM 10/20/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >I seem to recall opening two files and just copying symbols one at a >time from Bob's drawing to my drawing as needed. >Ken I'm not a TurboCAD user so I'm fishing in the dark here a bit. The process for using symbols is to first begin with a blank drawing. Open TurboCAD then within TurboCAD say File_Open and then click on say Wirebook_A_Border.dwg. Once the border is brought in, do a File_SaveAs and give it a name for a diagram you want to create, say Landing_Lights. Save it to a directory OTHER than were your symbol library is stored. Now, you can Insert_File and pick pieces from the symbol library. You'll need a Bus_Tap_Fuse, a switch, a lamp symbol, etc. You arrange these blocks on a page and hook them up with wires. Then add descriptive text like reference designators, part numbers, etc. Suggest you begin with one of the Wire Books published on the website. Download: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Wirebook_Samples/SEMINAR.DWG into the directory where your wirebook is going tor reside. Then open TurboCAD before using TurboCAD to open SEMINAR.DWG. Do an immediate SAVEAS under the name for your own wirebook. On the pages within this drawing, the majority of what you'll need is probably already drawn. Edit this drawing to delete features you don't need and add features you will need. You "insert" items from the symbol library as needed. When I'm teaching AutoCAD, I start with this list of basic drawing commands: AR, *ARRAY B, *BLOCK WB, *WRITEBLOCK BR, *BREAK CI, *CIRCLE C, *CHANGE CH, *CHAMFER CO, *COPY D, *DIMSTYLE DI, *DIST DO, *DONUT DT, *DTEXT E, *ERASE ED, *DDEDIT EL, *ELLIPSE XT, *EXTEND EXIT, *QUIT F, *FILLET H, *HATCH I, *INSERT IP, *ISOPLANE L, *LINE LA, *LAYER LI, *LIST LT, *LINETYPE M, *MOVE MI, *MIRROR OF, *OFFSET OS, *OSNAP P, *PAN PE, *PEDIT PL, *PLINE PG, *POLYGON P, *PAN R, *REDRAW RG, *REGEN RT, *RECTANGLE REN *RENAME RO, *ROTATE S, *STRETCH SC, *SCALE SCR, *SCRIPT T, *TRIM V, *VIEW XP, *EXPLODE Z, *ZOOM Additionally, you'll need to explore and grasp the use of object snap commands like Intersection Center End Tangent Perpendicular Nearest and Insertion. I think you'll find it much easier to modify an existing array of pages as opposed to starting from scratch. Do you have a TurboCAD tutorial? I just opened my TurboCAD version 10 that I purchased off Ebay some months ago. It sees to open and/or insert items from the symbol library just fine. TurboCAD also recognizes the AutoCAD views I assigned to each page in the composite drawing . . . I'm pretty sure this software will let you do anything needed to craft your own wirebook but you'll have to become familiar with the basic drawing and editing commands unique to TurboCAD. I was able to copy and edit text and print one view at a time to the printer. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.