AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 10/22/07


Total Messages Posted: 20



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:18 AM - Re: Solid State Relay Alert (Nuisance)
     2. 08:04 AM - Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of usefulness (Eric M. Jones)
     3. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
     4. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Terry Watson)
     5. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
     6. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     7. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bret Smith)
     8. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
     9. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    10. 11:39 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Terry Watson)
    11. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    12. 01:48 PM - Re: FW: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    13. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bill Hibbing)
    14. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Ed Anderson)
    15. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (H. M. Haught Jr.)
    16. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of usefulness (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    17. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Solid State Relay Alert (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    18. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    19. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bill Hibbing)
    20. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Neal George)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:18:30 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Solid State Relay Alert
    From: "Nuisance" <aflyer@lazy8.net>
    Bob, is this a bi-polar device? !.5 Volts drop is pretty typical for a darlington. Wouldn't the power FET based SSRs do pretty well at the 5 - 10 Amp load range common for lights, fuel pumps, radios, etc.? John -------- Life is too short to run lean of peak. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141074#141074


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:04:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of
    usefulness
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    > About 1985, I was where you are today. I had a PC-XT, 20Mb > hard drive, yellow screen computer with the grand total of > 640K of ram. I think the thing ran at the blazing speed > of 4MHz. Bob, 4.77 MHz. You must have been a rich man. That system isn't far from $10k when you add it up. A box of 5 1/4" diskettes was $50. See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/tandy1989.pdf I want to put in two cents for the non-AutoCAD world. AutoCAD was always the personal computer CAD leader, and their prices show it. For professionals it is a great choice. For less-frequent users, AutoCAD Lite is not considered by many to be the best choice compared to several smaller programs. TurboCAD may be the most popular smaller program. I personally use DesignCAD, which one reviewed referred to as "Just like ACAD but $3,000 cheaper." I liked DesignCAD because you can call their tech support and get right through immediately. As for learning curve....In a short afternoon, one can go through all the CAD commands, but becoming proficient takes time. Nothing makes it easier than to WANT to draw something. Desire is the best motivation. Learning is very hard by the slow rote method. I sometimes think everyone should learn CAD, but that's only because I love it. Realistically, for some it may be a waste of time. But if you like engineering and design there is no option. Some change of thinking is required to introduce CAD to the beginner. Beginners often think of CAD as just a clumsy way of drawing. Then they learn about some odd and wonderful ideas-- --CAD has no scale. Everything is done "life-sized". For layout purposes ONLY, the output can be scaled, but don't scale printed drawings generally. --CAD drawings can be directly used to make parts. --CAD can draw things that are almost IMPOSSIBLE to draw otherwise. Spirals, splines, geometric non-linear shapes for example. --CAD can reuse drawings and parts of drawings. This is hugely powerful and time saving and more than makes up for the strange kabuki dance you have to learn to use CAD. Free gift for CAD users-- See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/Superellipses.pdf "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con- tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." - R. Buckminster Fuller -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141090#141090


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:24:55 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some" IFR capabilities. If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK. If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle. To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still no need for an AI. 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel in the RV7. I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency. At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:) Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:40 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation Frank, I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an actual panel offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00! http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html You can actually do even better through John Stark. He had asked what "I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR capabilities. The addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as a primary backup in the event of an in-flight emergency. I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should really be prefaced with the intended price range...i.e., VFR panel under $5000.00 VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00 IFR panel under $20,000.00 I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a spam can with 20 year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the panel. To each his own. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ________________________________


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:20:00 AM PST US
    From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. Terry _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some" IFR capabilities. If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK. If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle. To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still no need for an AI. 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel in the RV7. I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency. At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:) Frank


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Yes indeed Terry, tragic and very avoidable accident. Its hard for me to imaging is Bill was a very experienced VFR or IFR pilot he would have done that...But the bottom line is he did. But then an A/P (especially a Pictorial pilot which has reliable turn coordinator display) is quite adequate to keep straight and level and safely do shallow turns. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:20 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. Terry ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some" IFR capabilities. If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK. If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle. To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still no need for an AI. 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel in the RV7. I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency. At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:) Frank


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:41:35 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: Most of us who are building or flying RV=99s will remember that we lo st Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory =99s gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were compete nt pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Unti l that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked o ut the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of t he factory RV=99s now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. Terry I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that instrument competency is not an inborne trait. It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to kee p us alive without instrument proficiency. Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is mu ch easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner. Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be ri ding with you. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:55:28 AM PST US
    From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb@tds.net>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Frank, Very eloquently spoken. Just think, for another 2K, you could have had glass! (Just kidding) That reminded me of during my IFR training when I learned that the AI is never a primary instrument. Made me wonder why every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had one. Thanks for your input on this List... Bret Smith RV-9A "Fuselage" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some" IFR capabilities. If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK. If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle. To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still no need for an AI. 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel in the RV7. I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency. At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:) Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:40 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation Frank, I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an actual panel offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00! http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html You can actually do even better through John Stark. He had asked what "I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR capabilities. The addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as a primary backup in the event of an in-flight emergency. I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should really be prefaced with the intended price range...i.e., VFR panel under $5000.00 VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00 IFR panel under $20,000.00 I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a spam can with 20 year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the panel. To each his own. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:08:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Exactly my point Bob, Even with my IFR ticket I realise I am out of my element when hand flying in the clouds and turning around for an approach. It took me over 50 hours to get my IFR ticket and the idea of me 50 hours ago encountering clouds and using an AI to keep me right side up is just nonsensicle...I might be able to do it for a a few minutes but I'm sure I would have lost it eventually. Thats why (with my IFR ticket) my default position is you should be nowhere near clouds if your a VFR jock period. In the event you do enounter clouds the autopilot will fly the airplane sunnyside up much better than you will.....It does it better than I can now and I have probably 100hours in the soup. of course all this is in the RV7 which is not exactly the best instrument platform. Stay safe Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. Terry I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that instrument competency is not an inborne trait. It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to keep us alive without instrument proficiency. Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner. Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding with you. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ See what's


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:19:07 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Ya I wondered that too Bret, Particularly when you realise just how short lived a vacuum pump is. My guess it was more about liability than anything else. Or maybe our training was due to the fact the Gyro will eventually roll over and die...Hopefully it won't take you with it! Autopilots in small airplanes were of course almost unheard of not many years back. When you consider you can now get a superbly reliable wing leveler for less than $2k (experimental) then it makes them almost mandatory equipment in my mind and more useful than an AI...especially a non glass AI. Oh yes I do have a Dynon D100 and an EMS D10...Super pieces of equipment, wouldn't be without them but then I assume I won't be looking out the window either. My GNS 430 goes in for its WAAS upgrade next month and I'm told that its just awesome! Cheers and good luck with the 9a...awesome airplane you'll love it. Frank Rv7a 225 hours ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation Frank, Very eloquently spoken. Just think, for another 2K, you could have had glass! (Just kidding) That reminded me of during my IFR training when I learned that the AI is never a primary instrument. Made me wonder why every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had one. Thanks for your input on this List... Bret Smith RV-9A "Fuselage" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:39:32 AM PST US
    From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    With considerable respect Bob, a VFR pilot with some kind of gyro instrument or an autopilot has a much better chance of completing a 180 turn when he inadvertently flies into a cloud that he does without. If he thinks that having the instruments makes him an instrument pilot he is likely going to kill himself anyway. I think I recall my last two BFR's having that 180 degree turn under the hood as a part of it. I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the point where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the IFR system) is another question entirely. As for being an outsider to the list, you are one of the reasons I follow the list. Terry _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. Terry I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that instrument competency is not an inborne trait. It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to keep us alive without instrument proficiency. Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner. Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding with you. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 _____ See what's


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:30:06 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Good Afternoon Terry, I personally feel that every flying machine should have the capability of being flown without outside reference. For me, that means a T&B, airspeed and altimeter. Additional toys are always helpful! What I am fearful of is anyone being encouraged to fly beyond his or her capabilities utilizing equipment that happens to be on board. I am certain that there are modern solid state instruments that are just as reliable and as economical as my beloved needle, ball and airspeed, but regardless of what style instrumentation is chosen, it takes practice and proficiency to utilize it. Even a wing leveler has to be understood and used properly. I have never flown any flying machine which I could not keep right side up or recover from an unusual attitude by using basic needle, ball, and airspeed technique. We don't need to be able to shoot approaches or communicate with the FEDs to be able to keep an airplane right side up. It would be nice if we could call for and obtain assistance, but communication is not imperative for survival. I am prejudiced toward instrument flying because I learned how to do it very early in my career. It is my opinion that it takes a lot longer to learn how to be a safe VFR pilot than it does to learn how to be a safe IFR pilot. That does not mean that the flying machine needs to have a full panel and sophisticated radios to be flyable in IFR conditions. What it does mean is that any pilot should have adequate equipment and skills to be able to avoid disaster if sight of the horizon is lost. While making a turn off shore during daylight hours the visibility can be good, but a haze may cause a loss of visual reference for just a few moments. At night, the ability to safely control the airplane for a few seconds or a few minutes until good references are in sight is invaluable. No one intentionally gets into those situations, but it takes experience to be able to stay out of them. While that experience is being gained, it sure is nice to be able to control the aircraft without a visual reference. I urge everyone to practice flight by whatever reference instruments are installed often enough so that when that daytime haze condition or a night time turn away from lights causes a momentary loss of reference, maintaining control is second nature. Certainly, no one intends to get into conditions where instrument flight is required and I do not believe everyone has to be fully qualified to pick up a clearance and shoot an approach, but I do believe we should all be able to keep the airplane under control for a few minutes when we inadvertently lose our orientation via outside the aircraft references. I vote for twenty hours of concentrated training using needle, ball, and airspeed or whatever style rate instrumentation is available. The main reason I like needle, ball, and airspeed is that they are cheap, reliable and ubiquitous. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/22/2007 1:42:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the point where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the IFR system) is another question entirely.


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:48:06 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Well Mister redeloach, I have never been accused of being wise, but I do believe there are many wh o will agree that I am old and I have been an active licensed pilot for over sixty-one years. Where does two out of three leave me? I believe that anyone who flies is capable of flying into a condition where visual reference is lost. It happens to ducks and it happens to me. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/22/2007 2:47:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, redeloach@fedex.com writes: Keep on making sense. Someone must. Lot=99s of these typist have pro bably never heard how to be OLD, WISE, and a PILOT!


    Message 13


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    Time: 03:42:10 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Bob, When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive while you try to sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in the local area. Bill Glasair SIIS-FT ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that instrument competency is not an inborne trait. It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to keep us alive without instrument proficiency. Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner. Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding with you. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:08:22 PM PST US
    From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    I fully agree, Terry. I spent 20 rather anxious filled ICM minutes when I foolish got caught crossing a cold front to what I expect to be fair and clear behind it. Despite a 180, I got enveloped in clouds at 8500 MSL that turned out to have ice. Ice formed on front of windshield and in front of gas caps on the wings but fortunately not any more than that. I had 3 items that undoubtedly saved my butt that day. 1. I did have an AI as well as needle and ball (which I do practice with). 2. Had a heated pitot tube which I belatedly remember to turn on - immediately after I did there was a blip as I presume an slug of water that had been ice went through. 3. Had a Garmin 195 which mean I at least knew where I was headed. Managed to complete the turn, fly back toward a large lake while descending and finally broke out at 2000 MSL over the lake. Proceeded to north of Atlanta, GA and landing at Cherokee county airport in blowing snow near dusk. I had no luck communication with anyone - which after I landed I discovered the radio antenna had snapped off flush with its mount on the fuselage - I presume due to ice induced vibration. I walked on shaky knees into the FBO and the first thing I saw as an article posted on their read-board about the average life span of a VFR pilot in ICM conditions being a few seconds less than 3 minutes. My guardian angle got a few gray hairs on that one. But, the point is regardless of dumb thought process or poor decision that got me to that point, without those instruments and a small bit of skill at using them, I would not be writing this. So I am a firm believer in four things. 1. Never, Never mess with ICM conditions 2. Always have a minimum set of equipment to do a 180 in those conditions - even if only a VFR pilot - you never plan on becoming involved in such a situation, but its happened to more than me. 3. Know how to use those basic instruments and practice doing a 180. 4. A GPS to get you someplace (rather than boring circles in those conditions). FWIW Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Watson To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation With considerable respect Bob, a VFR pilot with some kind of gyro instrument or an autopilot has a much better chance of completing a 180 turn when he inadvertently flies into a cloud that he does without. If he thinks that having the instruments makes him an instrument pilot he is likely going to kill himself anyway. I think I recall my last two BFR's having that 180 degree turn under the hood as a part of it. I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the point where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the IFR system) is another question entirely. As for being an outsider to the list, you are one of the reasons I follow the list. Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. Terry I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that instrument competency is not an inborne trait. It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to keep us alive without instrument proficiency. Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner. Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding with you. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's


    Message 15


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    Time: 04:42:39 PM PST US
    From: "H. M. Haught Jr. " <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    I think I started this thread with my inquiry about the VFR instrumentation. I have a "full panel" in my Pacer, and it has saved my neck more than once. As brought out in this thread, if you fly a lot, you will run into conditions that may not be IFR, but are disorienting, as well as blundering into IFR conditions. I had a good instructor that insisted I be "competent" on instruments (long time Navy and then Air Force basic instructor), so I spent a considerable amount of time under the hood. Most of my BFR instructors have also checked me out under the hood (unusual attitudes, 180 turns, etc.) and it has saved my beef. Got caught on the coast of Florida in some fast moving weather, did a 180 and got socked in on approach to the airport I had crossed. All I could do was set up a climb, hope I didn't hit a tower and keep the airplane right side up as I climbed out on the runway heading (chart showed no towers). Getting on the radio, I determined that I could indeed climb out on top and got vectors to the closest view to the ground with the control center filing me as "Special VFR) . And yes, I did experience vertigo on that flight, plus, the Pacer is not a good instrument platform. It wasn't fun, and I would not do it again on purpose. Other occasions have caused me to practice flying on instruments as often as I can. I would like to get my IFR rating, and would definitely take instruction if I can afford a "basic IFR" panel, just for situations that I mentioned. Low ceiling over my location, clear air a few miles away. However, from the responses, I doubt I can afford that kind of equipment. Right now, my thinking is to install the TruTrak EFIS, depending upon the cost, the Pictorial Turn and Bank, ICOM Radio, and maybe a used Garmin GPS panel unit as well as a "steam guage" altimeter and airspeed. I've flown the Pictorial Turn and Bank in my Pacer (velcroed on the top of the panel) when Younkin was developing it and was impressed. With the EFIS as primary and the pictorial T&B as backup I would feel comfortable continuing to fly as I do now, with the GPS as backup to the gyro. Probably can't afford to go with an auto pilot, unless they get even cheaper but will install wiring and components to add additional equipment later as I can afford it. I certainly wasn't advocating a VFR pilot intentionally filing IFR. I was just stating what I have wanted to do on occasion if I had the equipment and experience to do it safely. It also appears that everyone has a different definition of "basic". M. Haught Bill Hibbing wrote: > Bob, > > When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that > you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I > understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an > a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial > disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can > easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not > maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that > happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive > while you try to sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his > airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person > is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on > a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting > to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any > fancy stuff in it to have fun in the local area. > > Bill > Glasair SIIS-FT > > ----- >


    Message 16


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    Time: 04:43:40 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level
    of usefulness At 08:01 AM 10/22/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > > > About 1985, I was where you are today. I had a PC-XT, 20Mb > > hard drive, yellow screen computer with the grand total of > > 640K of ram. I think the thing ran at the blazing speed > > of 4MHz. > > >Bob, > >4.77 MHz. You must have been a rich man. That system isn't far from $10k >when you add it up. A box of 5 1/4" diskettes was $50. > >See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/tandy1989.pdf Actually, just over a $grand$. We had a "policy" at Beech that said "NO IBM clones . . . you never know when IBM might be in the market for a stable of King Airs". When we became Raytheon, I heard through the grapevine that Raytheon MASS put out yearly contracts for clone suppliers. I got the name of the present favored supplier and called them. I told them we were Raytheon WICHITA and wanted a quote on what a PC-XT would cost us. They asked, "How many" . . ." Hmmmm . . . dunno. . . how about 25? "Okay, call you back." An hour later he called to quote $1050+UPS. Okay, I circulated a sign-up sheet in the Targets Group and two days later I had 27 checks in my hot little fist. About 10 days later this UPS guy backs up to my garage and is looking at his COD delivery ticket with some incredulity . . . "That will be $28,000 please." Biggest check I ever wrote in my life. I became the local warranty service rep for the Bit Bucket of N. Newton, MA and over the next 4 years, built up a rather interesting, very educational, and mildly profitable computer business. Got out when the local store fronts began selling clones at a few hundred over my costs. Most of my personal computer upgrades were trade-ins from my customers. Got to massage my own computer usage on the coat-tails of the business. I've probably owned 40 computers over the years! The most I ever paid for one was $2700 for the latest and greatest, 20 MHz 286 machine . . . boy, was that a learning experience! The same machine was half that price a year later. I've since adopted a purchasing philosophy that upgrades my computers AFTER the next generation machines come out. You get 'last years' model for peanuts. Nowadays, I seldom drop more than $600 on any CPU purchase. My lab test drivers come off ebay for under $150. Now, if only we could purchase last year's model hip replacement in the same free-market, consumer-supplier driven environment . . . Bob . . .


    Message 17


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    Time: 04:43:40 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Solid State Relay Alert
    At 06:16 AM 10/22/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >Bob, is this a bi-polar device? !.5 Volts drop is pretty typical for a >darlington. Don't know what the internal technology is . . . only that 1.5V is 10% of system voltage in the switching device alone! >Wouldn't the power FET based SSRs do pretty well at the 5 - 10 Amp load >range common for lights, fuel pumps, radios, etc.? FETs or arrays of FETS can be used to produce exceedingly low on-resistances. Under 1 milliohm is now quite practical. This would toss off 20 mv at 20A for a grand heat load of 400 milliwatts. That's MY kind of heat sink problem. Point is that this particular product, no matter how attractively priced, is not ready for top billing in our airplanes. I think I gave under $10 for the one in the picture. I had hopes. We're getting close but not quite there yet. Bob . . .


    Message 18


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    Time: 04:52:18 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Good Evening Bill, In am not at all opposed to having an autopilot available. In fact I have two of them in my Bonanza. One is a full autopilot with altitude hold and approach coupling. The other is an old Century I wing leveler. I hate carrying any extra weight, but I do consider my back up autopilot to be worth carrying the two point two extra pounds that it weighs. If I could get one approved in my Stearman at a reasonable cost, I would probably do so. My only objection is to installing one as a substitute for training and checking. The twenty hours or so of training required to reach a high level of rate instrument flight capability seems to me to be a better investment. The cost is about the same, but the training will last a life time and the rate instruments are available in almost all certificated airplanes. They are low cost enough and light enough to place in everything that has any sort of electrical power at all. If no electrical power is available, a venturi will work just fine. Best of all is to have an autopilot combined with the skills to fly without it. Even an autopilot needs training to use properly. We can all point out many things that JFKjr needed, but his mistakes could have happened to any of us at some stage in our training. Very Sad and very bad for our light plane image. We do not need such things happening to anyone else. IFR capability and training would have saved him. Why not encourage all to get that training? It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get around the country safely in VFR conditions. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/22/2007 5:44:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, n744bh@bellsouth.net writes: Bob, When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive while you try to sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in the local area. Bill Glasair SIIS-FT


    Message 19


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    Time: 06:38:39 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Yep, I totally agree Bob. The way I see it was that JFK made 2 mistakes and if he had only made one he probably would still be around. His first was not waiting until the next morning to make the flight and the second was not engaging the a/p when things started to go badly. I have an old airline buddy that lives in CT within easy view of Long Island Sound when airborne. She went out to fly her Eagle the evening of JFK's accident and after a couple of minutes thought to herself "what the heck am I doing flying in this haze?" She turned back to her home airfield and put the airplane away for another day. The good IFR training is always worth the money but there are probably more than a few pilots that don't fly enough to maintain a high level of proficiency, especially on the 1-2-3 method of instrument flying. Anyway, enough from me on this subject. Bill Glasair SIIS-FT ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:51 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation Good Evening Bill, In am not at all opposed to having an autopilot available. In fact I have two of them in my Bonanza. One is a full autopilot with altitude hold and approach coupling. The other is an old Century I wing leveler. I hate carrying any extra weight, but I do consider my back up autopilot to be worth carrying the two point two extra pounds that it weighs. If I could get one approved in my Stearman at a reasonable cost, I would probably do so. My only objection is to installing one as a substitute for training and checking. The twenty hours or so of training required to reach a high level of rate instrument flight capability seems to me to be a better investment. The cost is about the same, but the training will last a life time and the rate instruments are available in almost all certificated airplanes. They are low cost enough and light enough to place in everything that has any sort of electrical power at all. If no electrical power is available, a venturi will work just fine. Best of all is to have an autopilot combined with the skills to fly without it. Even an autopilot needs training to use properly. We can all point out many things that JFKjr needed, but his mistakes could have happened to any of us at some stage in our training. Very Sad and very bad for our light plane image. We do not need such things happening to anyone else. IFR capability and training would have saved him. Why not encourage all to get that training? It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get around the country safely in VFR conditions. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 10/22/2007 5:44:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, n744bh@bellsouth.net writes: Bob, When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive while you try to sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in the local area. Bill Glasair SIIS-FT ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new


    Message 20


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    Time: 08:46:12 PM PST US
    From: "Neal George" <n8zg@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
    Well said Bob ! Ladies and Gentlemen, Old Bob has exposed the nugget of this thread. I'd add that it's immeasurably safer (to your ticket and your person), and less expensive, too, especially of you use your airplane to go places on anything resembling a schedule. I travel A LOT in the course of my AF duties. I take the CherokeeJet whenever possible (115 Kts - WFO, downhill). More often than not, I beat my co-workers there _and_ home, at less expense, and on MY schedule, not the cattle car's. And always on a IFR flight plan. Simply couldn't do it VFR and make the meetings (or stay married). IFR will (OK, should) keep one out of a hot MOA or campaigning congressman TFR... even those that bloom out of nowhere...after launch...VFR (CAVU, even)...six hours and a fuel stop en route... (plausible fiction follows) FBI - "Capt George, why were you flying a straight line from Morganton to Manassas that intersected the TFR surrounding Congressman Bluster's campaign stop?" Me - "Didn't happen." FBI - "Capt George, we have radar track data that puts you directly over the congressman's podium while the TFR was active." Me - "I called 1-800-WXBRIEF, talked to YOUR contractor, filed IFR Direct MRN-HEF, specifically asked about TFRs, and was ensured there were no TFR's associated with my route of flight. We discussed en route weather and the area that until recently resembled a certain mouse. I had a discrete squawk code and was in constant communication with ATC on an IFR flight plan under ATC control. How could I have violated a TFR?" FBI - "Capt George, give me your License." Me - "NoSir. I remember the trouble Bob Hoover had... Shall we review the tape?" (End plausible fiction, but I expect it would go downhill from there...) Anybody remember a few weeks ago when one of our associates was beat up for "loitering" over a power plant...at >160 kts...more than 5 NM away...well over 3000 ft above...on a straight line to landing? Bonus! - Dxxxx Airlines can't abandon me in Atlanta <8-O - but I CAN drag out a fuel stop to enjoy supper, or divert and spend the evening with friends or family if the weather or SAFETY dictate... Neal E. George 2023 Everglades Drive Navarre, FL 32566 Home - 850-515-0640 Cell - 850-218-4838 On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get around the country safely in VFR conditions. Happy Skies, Old Bob




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