Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: EMag wrong ??? (Frank Stringham)
2. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: EMag wrong ??? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: EMag wrong ??? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 10:12 AM - Best Prices Offered Anywhere (Mile High Aviation)
5. 10:20 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07 (Jesse Jenks)
6. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07 (BobsV35B@aol.com)
7. 11:14 AM - Z 19 drawing (Peter Laurence)
8. 12:21 PM - Z-19 ECU wiring question (mikef)
9. 12:53 PM - Re: Best Prices Offered Anywhere (Walter Fellows)
10. 02:56 PM - Electrical Drawing Critisism Wanted (DaveG601XL)
11. 08:07 PM - Off to Houston . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:07 PM - Re: Z 19 drawing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: EMag wrong ??? |
Bob and others
I believe I asked the wrong question in yesterdays post.
I have wired my aircraft (rv7A) according to the scheme Z13-8. I sure hate
to rewire .....so after meeting with the good folks from E-mag is the Z13-8
no longer viable or am I still OK to go with it!
What I should have asked is:
1. Who out there is using Z13-8 or Z33 with Emag products and have either
had good luck with no problems to the mags or tragedy?
2. If Tragedy to the mags can the problem be traced to the wiring scheme of
Z13-8?
3. Has there been anyone with any wiring scheme....Emag suggested or
otherwise that has a mag problem and can definitly say it was because of the
wiring (loose wire or poor connections excluded)
I believe that there may be a precieved problem with how these mags are
wired that may or may not becausing problems with the mags where in fact
actual use may not bare this out.
Thanks for your imput from those of you with expience in the field.
Frank @ SGU RV7A Wiring Done.....maybe
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop by
today!
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHMtagline
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: EMag wrong ??? |
At 07:31 AM 10/25/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><fstringham@hotmail.com>
>
>Bob and others
>
>I believe I asked the wrong question in yesterdays post.
>
>I have wired my aircraft (rv7A) according to the scheme Z13-8. I sure hate
>to rewire .....so after meeting with the good folks from E-mag is the
>Z13-8 no longer viable or am I still OK to go with it!
There's nothing wrong with it . . . for P-Mags.
Obviously, you don't want to "preflight" the
power supply to an E-Mag, you KNOW that the
device won't run with power removed.
>What I should have asked is:
>1. Who out there is using Z13-8 or Z33 with Emag products and have either
>had good luck with no problems to the mags or tragedy?
No. . .
>2. If Tragedy to the mags can the problem be traced to the wiring scheme
>of Z13-8?
No . . .
>3. Has there been anyone with any wiring scheme....Emag suggested or
>otherwise that has a mag problem and can definitly say it was because of
>the wiring (loose wire or poor connections excluded)
No . . .
>I believe that there may be a precieved problem with how these mags are
>wired that may or may not becausing problems with the mags where in fact
>actual use may not bare this out.
>
>Thanks for your imput from those of you with expience in the field.
While visiting Emagair two weeks ago, we had some
discussions about design goals and risks. I was
also made privy to some of changes to their design
goals that will make the P-mag replacement of magnetos
still more transparent to the owner/operator.
I have been and continue to be skeptical of the
rumors circulating the 'Net concerning dual failure
of Emagair products resulting in a forced landing.
None of these stories were accompanied with a detailed
failure mode effects analysis of events leading up
to the unintentional arrival with the earth.
Z-13/8 is going to be revised to suggest that
P-mags be permanently powered from the E-bus
and that operational control of the P-mag be
accomplished with the simple, single pole
switch used for magnetos. This architecture
will still allow for the occasional verification
of P-mag self powered operations because it's
a simple matter to power the electrical system
down during ground ops for the purpose of
conducting tests. Further, drain on the E-Bus
during battery-only ops will be eliminated
because future plans for P-mags call for
switching to internal power full time once
the engine is started.
But as a day-to-day operational concern for
preflight and operation of the aircraft, the
wiring in Z-13/8 goes to the design goals
stated for pre-flight testing of internal
P-mag power and presents no special concerns
for abnormal behavior of or damage to the
ignition system.
If you're already wired per Z-13/8, there
is no imperative for revising it as long
as you personally embrace the design goals
that drove the architecture. In the revised
drawing, we will suggest that internal power
supplies for the P-mag are so robust and
reliable that likelihood of pre-flight
testing revealing a deficiency is too small
be concerned with on a flight-by-flight basis.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: EMag wrong ??? |
Oh really?
A dual failure maybe not..But failures, almost certainly.
My engine temps suddenly went through the roof to the degree that it was
likely an engine teardown was in order.
Every potential cause was eliminated which put it down to the timing
going beserk.
Yes I was one of those but fourtunatly made it to the airport...It
happened on two separate occasions, once in IMC.
In fact Emagair themselves will tell you that they had a problem with
the units resetting their own timing. So while it was probably not a
dual failure the fact that the effective timing comes from the first one
to fire then unless that mag is shutdown the consequential detonation
can bring the airplane down....it did once (reported on Vans airforce
website) and I don't think I was dreaming at the time either...More like
a nightmare!
Now several improvments have been made since and no further problems
have been encountered. It is also fair to say that in both of the near
forced landings (one actual and mine was a near miss) IF the pilot had
been savvy enough to shut down one of the Emags we could have probably
found which mag it was and probably saved what must have been
considerable stress on our brand new engines. But alas we didn't....So
we take some of the blame there.
So while there is no concrete proof the evidence is highly compelling
that these units used to loose their timing with almost disasterous
results (to our pocket books if not to our lives).
Having said that. The units have performed very well..I have had a lot
of problems (more than most according to Brad). The folks at Emagair
have however worked very hard to rectify issues in a timely manner and I
would say I have at least 150 hours of fault free flying behind them
since.
Yes I do believe in E/Pmags now but they have most certainly not got a
blemish free track record. Lets hope those days are firmly behind us.
Frank
RV7a 225 hours
-----Original Message-----
I have been and continue to be skeptical of the
rumors circulating the 'Net concerning dual failure
of Emagair products resulting in a forced landing.
None of these stories were accompanied with a detailed
failure mode effects analysis of events leading up
to the unintentional arrival with the earth.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Best Prices Offered Anywhere |
Mile High Aviation
We Will Not Be Undersold!
ASA Pathfinder CX-2 Electronic Flight Computer
CX-2 Flight Computer
Price $61.95
Retail Price $80.00
To Order Call: 401-228-6677
<HTTP://WWW.MILE-HIGH-AVIATION.COM> Http://WWW.MILE-HIGH-AVIATION.COM
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07 |
Great discussion on instrument training vs. autopilot. I am definitely on O
ld Bob's side. Spend the money on training. It will make you so much safer
and more confident, and increase your fun factor. I fly IFR professionally
every day in an airplane with 2 very capable autopilots, and still enjoy th
e sense of satisfaction that comes from hand flying in the clouds. I know s
ome people here don't have access to that level of training or practice, bu
t there are other ways to maintain proficiency. In the past when I have per
iods where I don't fly IFR regularly, I simply turn on Microsoft Flight Si
mulator. It is a very effective way to practice. Also, force yourself to sp
end time during normal flying to practice on instruments. Take a safety pil
ot and a hood. It WILL make you a better and safer pilot. An autopilot can
not do that for you. I part ways with my opinion of the attitude indicator
though. Simply put, it is the only instrument that you could safely use to
fly the airplane IMC all by itself. Needle ball and airspeed is a great ski
ll to practice, but in modern times that is called "partial panel" Sorry Ol
d Bob. I am genuinely curious though about why you prefer the T&B over the
turn coordinator? On a fun/related note, I was catching a ride on an Airbus
yesterday and had to sit in the cockpit because the cabin was full. The Fi
rst Officer was flying from DCA to ORD in some fairly nasty weather. That a
irplane is extremely automated, but he hand flew most of the departure and
arrival procedures. We are still pilots guys. Don't rely on computers to do
your job.
Jesse
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:55:38 -0700
> From: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> To: aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07
>
> *
>
> ========================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
>
> Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of
the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text edi
tor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=h
tml&Chapter 07-10-22&Archive=AeroElectric
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=t
xt&Chapter 07-10-22&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>
> ========================
=======================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
=======================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Mon 10/22/07: 20
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 06:18 AM - Re: Solid State Relay Alert (Nuisance)
> 2. 08:04 AM - Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of us
efulness (Eric M. Jones)
> 3. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank G
eorge (Corvallis))
> 4. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Terry Watson)
> 5. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank G
eorge (Corvallis))
> 6. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.c
om)
> 7. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bret Smith)
> 8. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank G
eorge (Corvallis))
> 9. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank G
eorge (Corvallis))
> 10. 11:39 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Terry Watson)
> 11. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.c
om)
> 12. 01:48 PM - Re: FW: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@a
ol.com)
> 13. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bill Hibbing)
> 14. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Ed Anderson)
> 15. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (H. M. Haught J
r.)
> 16. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level o
f usefulness (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
> 17. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Solid State Relay Alert (Robert L. Nuckolls,
III)
> 18. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B@aol.c
om)
> 19. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bill Hibbing)
> 20. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Neal George)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 06:18:30 AM PST US
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solid State Relay Alert
> From: "Nuisance" <aflyer@lazy8.net>
>
>
> Bob, is this a bi-polar device? !.5 Volts drop is pretty typical for a da
rlington.
>
> Wouldn't the power FET based SSRs do pretty well at the 5 - 10 Amp load r
ange
> common for lights, fuel pumps, radios, etc.?
>
> John
>
> --------
> Life is too short to run lean of peak.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141074#141074
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 08:04:54 AM PST US
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical le
vel of
> usefulness
> From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>
>
> > About 1985, I was where you are today. I had a PC-XT, 20Mb
> > hard drive, yellow screen computer with the grand total of
> > 640K of ram. I think the thing ran at the blazing speed
> > of 4MHz.
>
>
> Bob,
>
> 4.77 MHz. You must have been a rich man. That system isn't far from $10k
when you
> add it up. A box of 5 1/4" diskettes was $50.
>
> See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/tandy1989.pdf
>
> I want to put in two cents for the non-AutoCAD world. AutoCAD was always
the personal
> computer CAD leader, and their prices show it. For professionals it is
> a great choice.
>
> For less-frequent users, AutoCAD Lite is not considered by many to be the
best
> choice compared to several smaller programs. TurboCAD may be the most pop
ular
> smaller program. I personally use DesignCAD, which one reviewed referred
to as
> "Just like ACAD but $3,000 cheaper." I liked DesignCAD because you can ca
ll their
> tech support and get right through immediately.
>
> As for learning curve....In a short afternoon, one can go through all the
CAD commands,
> but becoming proficient takes time. Nothing makes it easier than to WANT
> to draw something. Desire is the best motivation. Learning is very hard b
y
> the slow rote method.
>
> I sometimes think everyone should learn CAD, but that's only because I lo
ve it.
> Realistically, for some it may be a waste of time. But if you like engine
ering
> and design there is no option.
>
> Some change of thinking is required to introduce CAD to the beginner. Be
ginners
> often think of CAD as just a clumsy way of drawing. Then they learn about
some
> odd and wonderful ideas--
>
> --CAD has no scale. Everything is done "life-sized". For layout purposes
ONLY,
> the output can be scaled, but don't scale printed drawings generally.
> --CAD drawings can be directly used to make parts.
> --CAD can draw things that are almost IMPOSSIBLE to draw otherwise. Spira
ls, splines,
> geometric non-linear shapes for example.
> --CAD can reuse drawings and parts of drawings. This is hugely powerful a
nd time
> saving and more than makes up for the strange kabuki dance you have to le
arn
> to use CAD.
>
> Free gift for CAD users--
> See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/Superellipses.pdf
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
> less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
> For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
> not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
> tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> - R. Buckminster Fuller
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones@charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141090#141090
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 08:24:55 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
> From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with
> "some" IFR capabilities.
>
> If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants
> to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
>
> If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to
> me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of
> weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find
> himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
>
> To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and
> then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is
> still no need for an AI.
>
> 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR
> panel in the RV7.
>
> I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he
> needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see
> out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is
> a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together
> with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX
> emergency.
>
> At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:)
>
> Frank
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret
> Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:40 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Frank,
>
> I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an actual panel
> offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00!
>
> http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html
>
> You can actually do even better through John Stark. He had asked what
> "I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR capabilities. The
> addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as a primary
> backup in the event of an in-flight emergency.
>
> I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should really be
> prefaced with the intended price range...i.e.,
> VFR panel under $5000.00
> VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00
> IFR panel under $20,000.00
>
> I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a spam can with 20
> year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the panel.
> To each his own.
>
> Bret Smith
> RV-9A (91314)
> Mineral Bluff, GA
> www.FlightInnovations.com
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 09:20:00 AM PST US
> From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bil
l
> Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory
's
> gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were
> competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet th
ey
> did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes
> you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I
> believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon
or
> autopilot, or both.
>
>
> Terry
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
> Frank George (Corvallis)
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "som
e"
> IFR capabilities.
>
>
> If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants t
o
> do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
>
>
> If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to
me
> is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather an
d
> one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the
> proverbial creek without a paddle.
>
>
> To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and t
hen
> as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still n
o
> need for an AI.
>
>
> 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR pan
el
> in the RV7.
>
>
> I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he need
ed
> in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the
> window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful
> device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a
> resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency.
>
>
> At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:)
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
> From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Yes indeed Terry, tragic and very avoidable accident.
>
> Its hard for me to imaging is Bill was a very experienced VFR or IFR
> pilot he would have done that...But the bottom line is he did.
>
> But then an A/P (especially a Pictorial pilot which has reliable turn
> coordinator display) is quite adequate to keep straight and level and
> safely do shallow turns.
>
> Frank
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
> Watson
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:20 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost
> Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the
> factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both
> were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds,
> yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs
> as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the
> builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of
> artificial horizon or autopilot, or both.
>
>
> Terry
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with
> "some" IFR capabilities.
>
>
> If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants
> to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
>
>
> If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to
> me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of
> weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find
> himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
>
>
> To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and
> then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is
> still no need for an AI.
>
>
> 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR
> panel in the RV7.
>
>
> I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he
> needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see
> out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is
> a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together
> with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX
> emergency.
>
>
> At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:)
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 09:41:35 AM PST US
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> terry@tcwatson.com writes:
>
> Most of us who are building or flying RV=99s will remember that we lo
> st Bill
> Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factor
y
> =99s
> gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were comp
ete
> nt
> pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. U
nti
> l
> that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looke
d o
> ut
> the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most o
f t
> he
> factory RV=99s now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot,
> or
> both.
> Terry
>
>
> I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that
> instrument competency is not an inborne trait.
>
> It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.
>
> Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to
kee
> p
> us alive without instrument proficiency.
>
> Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do
the
>
> initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is
mu
> ch
> easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into a
n
> IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her ha
nds
>
> full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner.
>
> Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.
>
> Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may
> not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be
ri
> ding
> with you.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 09:55:28 AM PST US
> From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb@tds.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> Frank,
>
> Very eloquently spoken. Just think, for another 2K, you could have had
> glass! (Just kidding) That reminded me of during my IFR training when
> I learned that the AI is never a primary instrument. Made me wonder why
> every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had one.
>
> Thanks for your input on this List...
>
> Bret Smith
> RV-9A "Fuselage"
> Blue Ridge, GA
> www.FlightInnovations.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:22 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with
> "some" IFR capabilities.
>
> If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who
> wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
>
> If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that
> to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of
> weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find
> himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
>
> To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens
> and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there
> is still no need for an AI.
>
> 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR
> panel in the RV7.
>
> I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he
> needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see
> out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is
> a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together
> with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX
> emergency.
>
> At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....:)
>
> Frank
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret
> Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:40 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Frank,
>
> I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an actual panel
> offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00!
>
> http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html
>
> You can actually do even better through John Stark. He had asked what
> "I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR capabilities. The
> addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as a primary
> backup in the event of an in-flight emergency.
>
> I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should really be
> prefaced with the intended price range...i.e.,
> VFR panel under $5000.00
> VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00
> IFR panel under $20,000.00
>
> I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a spam can with
> 20 year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the panel.
> To each his own.
>
> Bret Smith
> RV-9A (91314)
> Mineral Bluff, GA
> www.FlightInnovations.com
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 10:08:48 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
> From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Exactly my point Bob,
>
> Even with my IFR ticket I realise I am out of my element when hand
> flying in the clouds and turning around for an approach. It took me over
> 50 hours to get my IFR ticket and the idea of me 50 hours ago
> encountering clouds and using an AI to keep me right side up is just
> nonsensicle...I might be able to do it for a a few minutes but I'm sure
> I would have lost it eventually.
>
> Thats why (with my IFR ticket) my default position is you should be
> nowhere near clouds if your a VFR jock period.
>
> In the event you do enounter clouds the autopilot will fly the airplane
> sunnyside up much better than you will.....It does it better than I can
> now and I have probably 100hours in the soup.
>
> of course all this is in the RV7 which is not exactly the best
> instrument platform.
>
> Stay safe
>
> Frank
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> BobsV35B@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> terry@tcwatson.com writes:
>
> Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we
> lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in
> the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show.
> Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the
> clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his
> designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most
> of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort
> of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both.
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
> I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that
> instrument competency is not an inborne trait.
>
> It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.
>
> Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to
> keep us alive without instrument proficiency.
>
> Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do
> the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing,
> it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR
> flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR
> pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned
> manner.
>
> Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.
>
> Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It
> may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who
> may be riding with you.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> See what's
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9 ____________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 10:19:07 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
> From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Ya I wondered that too Bret, Particularly when you realise just how
> short lived a vacuum pump is. My guess it was more about liability than
> anything else. Or maybe our training was due to the fact the Gyro will
> eventually roll over and die...Hopefully it won't take you with it!
>
> Autopilots in small airplanes were of course almost unheard of not many
> years back. When you consider you can now get a superbly reliable wing
> leveler for less than $2k (experimental) then it makes them almost
> mandatory equipment in my mind and more useful than an AI...especially a
> non glass AI.
>
> Oh yes I do have a Dynon D100 and an EMS D10...Super pieces of
> equipment, wouldn't be without them but then I assume I won't be looking
> out the window either.
>
> My GNS 430 goes in for its WAAS upgrade next month and I'm told that its
> just awesome!
>
> Cheers and good luck with the 9a...awesome airplane you'll love it.
>
> Frank
> Rv7a 225 hours
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret
> Smith
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:45 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Frank,
>
> Very eloquently spoken. Just think, for another 2K, you could have had
> glass! (Just kidding) That reminded me of during my IFR training when
> I learned that the AI is never a primary instrument. Made me wonder why
> every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had one.
>
> Thanks for your input on this List...
>
> Bret Smith
> RV-9A "Fuselage"
> Blue Ridge, GA
> www.FlightInnovations.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 11:39:32 AM PST US
> From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> With considerable respect Bob, a VFR pilot with some kind of gyro instrum
ent
> or an autopilot has a much better chance of completing a 180 turn when he
> inadvertently flies into a cloud that he does without. If he thinks that
> having the instruments makes him an instrument pilot he is likely going t
o
> kill himself anyway. I think I recall my last two BFR's having that 180
> degree turn under the hood as a part of it.
>
>
> I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the po
int
> where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are
> inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the
IFR
> system) is another question entirely.
>
>
> As for being an outsider to the list, you are one of the reasons I follow
> the list.
>
>
> Terry
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> BobsV35B@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> terry@tcwatson.com writes:
>
> Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bil
l
> Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory
's
> gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were
> competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet th
ey
> did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes
> you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I
> believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon
or
> autopilot, or both.
>
>
> Terry
>
>
> I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that
> instrument competency is not an inborne trait.
>
>
> It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.
>
>
> Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to k
eep
> us alive without instrument proficiency.
>
>
> Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do t
he
> initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is
> much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight i
nto
> an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her
> hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner.
>
>
> Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.
>
>
> Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may
> not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be
> riding with you.
>
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> _____
>
> See what's
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 11 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 12:30:06 PM PST US
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Good Afternoon Terry,
>
> I personally feel that every flying machine should have the capability of
> being flown without outside reference.
>
> For me, that means a T&B, airspeed and altimeter. Additional toys are al
ways
> helpful!
>
> What I am fearful of is anyone being encouraged to fly beyond his or her
> capabilities utilizing equipment that happens to be on board.
>
> I am certain that there are modern solid state instruments that are just
as
> reliable and as economical as my beloved needle, ball and airspeed, but
> regardless of what style instrumentation is chosen, it takes practice and
> proficiency to utilize it.
>
> Even a wing leveler has to be understood and used properly.
>
> I have never flown any flying machine which I could not keep right side u
p
> or recover from an unusual attitude by using basic needle, ball, and airs
peed
>
> technique.
>
> We don't need to be able to shoot approaches or communicate with the FEDs
to
> be able to keep an airplane right side up. It would be nice if we could c
all
> for and obtain assistance, but communication is not imperative for survi
val.
>
> I am prejudiced toward instrument flying because I learned how to do it
very
> early in my career.
> It is my opinion that it takes a lot longer to learn how to be a safe VF
R
> pilot than it does to learn how to be a safe IFR pilot.
>
> That does not mean that the flying machine needs to have a full panel and
> sophisticated radios to be flyable in IFR conditions.
>
> What it does mean is that any pilot should have adequate equipment and
> skills to be able to avoid disaster if sight of the horizon is lost.
>
> While making a turn off shore during daylight hours the visibility can b
e
> good, but a haze may cause a loss of visual reference for just a few mom
ents.
>
>
> At night, the ability to safely control the airplane for a few seconds or
a
> few minutes until good references are in sight is invaluable.
>
> No one intentionally gets into those situations, but it takes experience
to
> be able to stay out of them. While that experience is being gained, it su
re is
>
> nice to be able to control the aircraft without a visual reference.
>
> I urge everyone to practice flight by whatever reference instruments are
> installed often enough so that when that daytime haze condition or a nigh
t time
>
> turn away from lights causes a momentary loss of reference, maintaining
> control is second nature.
>
> Certainly, no one intends to get into conditions where instrument flight
is
> required and I do not believe everyone has to be fully qualified to pick
up a
>
> clearance and shoot an approach, but I do believe we should all be able t
o
> keep the airplane under control for a few minutes when we inadvertently
lose
> our orientation via outside the aircraft references.
>
> I vote for twenty hours of concentrated training using needle, ball, and
> airspeed or whatever style rate instrumentation is available. The main re
ason I
>
> like needle, ball, and airspeed is that they are cheap, reliable and
> ubiquitous.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 1:42:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> terry@tcwatson.com writes:
>
> I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the p
oint
> where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are
> inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the
IFR system)
> is
> another question entirely.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 12 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 01:48:06 PM PST US
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com
> Subject: Re: FW: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> Well Mister redeloach,
>
>
> I have never been accused of being wise, but I do believe there are many
wh
> o
> will agree that I am old and I have been an active licensed pilot for ove
r
> sixty-one years. Where does two out of three leave me?
>
> I believe that anyone who flies is capable of flying into a condition whe
re
>
> visual reference is lost. It happens to ducks and it happens to me.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 2:47:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> redeloach@fedex.com writes:
>
> Keep on making sense. Someone must. Lot=99s of these typist have pro
> bably
> never heard how to be OLD, WISE, and a PILOT!
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 13 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 03:42:10 PM PST US
> From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> Bob,
>
> When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that
> you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I
> understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an
> a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial
> disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can
> easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining
> proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that happens to you
> a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive while you try to
> sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his airplane it's amazing
> he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person is building an airplane
> to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then you sure
> don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting to work on a Skybolt and you
> can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in
> the local area.
>
> Bill
> Glasair SIIS-FT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:40 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize
> that instrument competency is not an inborne trait.
>
> It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.
>
> Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient
> to keep us alive without instrument proficiency.
>
> Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will
> do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one
> thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert
> a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent
> IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned
> manner.
>
> Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.
>
> Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It
> may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who
> may be riding with you.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> See what's
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 14 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 04:08:22 PM PST US
> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> I fully agree, Terry. I spent 20 rather anxious filled ICM minutes when
> I foolish got caught crossing a cold front to what I expect to be fair
> and clear behind it. Despite a 180, I got enveloped in clouds at 8500
> MSL that turned out to have ice. Ice formed on front of windshield and
> in front of gas caps on the wings but fortunately not any more than
> that.
>
> I had 3 items that undoubtedly saved my butt that day.
>
> 1. I did have an AI as well as needle and ball (which I do practice
> with).
> 2. Had a heated pitot tube which I belatedly remember to turn on -
> immediately after I did there was a blip as I presume an slug of water
> that had been ice went through.
> 3. Had a Garmin 195 which mean I at least knew where I was headed.
>
> Managed to complete the turn, fly back toward a large lake while
> descending and finally broke out at 2000 MSL over the lake. Proceeded
> to north of Atlanta, GA and landing at Cherokee county airport in
> blowing snow near dusk. I had no luck communication with anyone - which
> after I landed I discovered the radio antenna had snapped off flush with
> its mount on the fuselage - I presume due to ice induced vibration.
>
> I walked on shaky knees into the FBO and the first thing I saw as an
> article posted on their read-board about the average life span of a VFR
> pilot in ICM conditions being a few seconds less than 3 minutes. My
> guardian angle got a few gray hairs on that one.
>
> But, the point is regardless of dumb thought process or poor decision
> that got me to that point, without those instruments and a small bit of
> skill at using them, I would not be writing this. So I am a firm
> believer in four things.
>
> 1. Never, Never mess with ICM conditions
> 2. Always have a minimum set of equipment to do a 180 in those
> conditions - even if only a VFR pilot - you never plan on becoming
> involved in such a situation, but its happened to more than me.
> 3. Know how to use those basic instruments and practice doing a 180.
> 4. A GPS to get you someplace (rather than boring circles in those
> conditions).
>
> FWIW
>
> Ed
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terry Watson
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:39 PM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> With considerable respect Bob, a VFR pilot with some kind of gyro
> instrument or an autopilot has a much better chance of completing a 180
> turn when he inadvertently flies into a cloud that he does without. If
> he thinks that having the instruments makes him an instrument pilot he
> is likely going to kill himself anyway. I think I recall my last two
> BFR's having that 180 degree turn under the hood as a part of it.
>
>
>
> I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the
> point where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are
> inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the
> IFR system) is another question entirely.
>
>
>
> As for being an outsider to the list, you are one of the reasons I
> follow the list.
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> BobsV35B@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> terry@tcwatson.com writes:
>
> Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we
> lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in
> the factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show.
> Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the
> clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his
> designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most
> of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort
> of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both.
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
> I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize
> that instrument competency is not an inborne trait.
>
>
>
> It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.
>
>
>
> Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient
> to keep us alive without instrument proficiency.
>
>
>
> Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will
> do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one
> thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert
> a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent
> IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned
> manner.
>
>
>
> Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.
>
>
>
> Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It
> may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who
> may be riding with you.
>
>
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> See what's
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 15 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 04:42:39 PM PST US
> From: "H. M. Haught Jr. " <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> I think I started this thread with my inquiry about the VFR
> instrumentation. I have a "full panel" in my Pacer, and it has saved my
> neck more than once. As brought out in this thread, if you fly a lot,
> you will run into conditions that may not be IFR, but are disorienting,
> as well as blundering into IFR conditions. I had a good instructor that
> insisted I be "competent" on instruments (long time Navy and then Air
> Force basic instructor), so I spent a considerable amount of time under
> the hood. Most of my BFR instructors have also checked me out under the
> hood (unusual attitudes, 180 turns, etc.) and it has saved my beef.
> Got caught on the coast of Florida in some fast moving weather, did a
> 180 and got socked in on approach to the airport I had crossed. All I
> could do was set up a climb, hope I didn't hit a tower and keep the
> airplane right side up as I climbed out on the runway heading (chart
> showed no towers). Getting on the radio, I determined that I could
> indeed climb out on top and got vectors to the closest view to the
> ground with the control center filing me as "Special VFR) . And yes, I
> did experience vertigo on that flight, plus, the Pacer is not a good
> instrument platform. It wasn't fun, and I would not do it again on
> purpose. Other occasions have caused me to practice flying on
> instruments as often as I can.
>
> I would like to get my IFR rating, and would definitely take instruction
> if I can afford a "basic IFR" panel, just for situations that I
> mentioned. Low ceiling over my location, clear air a few miles away.
> However, from the responses, I doubt I can afford that kind of
> equipment. Right now, my thinking is to install the TruTrak EFIS,
> depending upon the cost, the Pictorial Turn and Bank, ICOM Radio, and
> maybe a used Garmin GPS panel unit as well as a "steam guage" altimeter
> and airspeed. I've flown the Pictorial Turn and Bank in my Pacer
> (velcroed on the top of the panel) when Younkin was developing it and
> was impressed. With the EFIS as primary and the pictorial T&B as backup
> I would feel comfortable continuing to fly as I do now, with the GPS as
> backup to the gyro. Probably can't afford to go with an auto pilot,
> unless they get even cheaper but will install wiring and components to
> add additional equipment later as I can afford it.
>
> I certainly wasn't advocating a VFR pilot intentionally filing IFR. I
> was just stating what I have wanted to do on occasion if I had the
> equipment and experience to do it safely.
>
> It also appears that everyone has a different definition of "basic".
>
> M. Haught
>
> Bill Hibbing wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that
> > you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I
> > understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an
> > a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial
> > disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can
> > easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not
> > maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that
> > happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive
> > while you try to sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his
> > airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person
> > is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on
> > a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting
> > to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any
> > fancy stuff in it to have fun in the local area.
> >
> > Bill
> > Glasair SIIS-FT
> >
> > -----
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 16 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 04:43:40 PM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practi
cal level
> of usefulness
>
>
> At 08:01 AM 10/22/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > About 1985, I was where you are today. I had a PC-XT, 20Mb
> > > hard drive, yellow screen computer with the grand total of
> > > 640K of ram. I think the thing ran at the blazing speed
> > > of 4MHz.
> >
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >4.77 MHz. You must have been a rich man. That system isn't far from $10k
> >when you add it up. A box of 5 1/4" diskettes was $50.
> >
> >See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/tandy1989.pdf
>
> Actually, just over a $grand$. We had a "policy" at
> Beech that said "NO IBM clones . . . you never know
> when IBM might be in the market for a stable of King
> Airs". When we became Raytheon, I heard through the
> grapevine that Raytheon MASS put out yearly contracts
> for clone suppliers. I got the name of the present
> favored supplier and called them. I told them we were
> Raytheon WICHITA and wanted a quote on what a PC-XT
> would cost us. They asked, "How many" . . ." Hmmmm . . .
> dunno. . . how about 25? "Okay, call you back."
>
> An hour later he called to quote $1050+UPS. Okay, I
> circulated a sign-up sheet in the Targets Group
> and two days later I had 27 checks in my hot little
> fist. About 10 days later this UPS guy backs up
> to my garage and is looking at his COD delivery ticket
> with some incredulity . . . "That will be $28,000
> please."
>
> Biggest check I ever wrote in my life. I became the local
> warranty service rep for the Bit Bucket of N. Newton, MA
> and over the next 4 years, built up a rather interesting,
> very educational, and mildly profitable computer business.
> Got out when the local store fronts began selling clones
> at a few hundred over my costs.
>
> Most of my personal computer upgrades were trade-ins
> from my customers. Got to massage my own computer
> usage on the coat-tails of the business. I've probably
> owned 40 computers over the years! The most I ever
> paid for one was $2700 for the latest and greatest,
> 20 MHz 286 machine . . . boy, was that a learning
> experience! The same machine was half that price a
> year later. I've since adopted a purchasing philosophy
> that upgrades my computers AFTER the next generation
> machines come out. You get 'last years' model for
> peanuts. Nowadays, I seldom drop more than $600
> on any CPU purchase. My lab test drivers come off
> ebay for under $150.
>
> Now, if only we could purchase last year's model
> hip replacement in the same free-market,
> consumer-supplier driven environment . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 17 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 04:43:40 PM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solid State Relay Alert
>
>
> At 06:16 AM 10/22/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Bob, is this a bi-polar device? !.5 Volts drop is pretty typical for a
> >darlington.
>
> Don't know what the internal technology is . . . only
> that 1.5V is 10% of system voltage in the switching device
> alone!
>
>
> >Wouldn't the power FET based SSRs do pretty well at the 5 - 10 Amp load
> >range common for lights, fuel pumps, radios, etc.?
>
> FETs or arrays of FETS can be used to
> produce exceedingly low on-resistances.
> Under 1 milliohm is now quite practical.
> This would toss off 20 mv at 20A for a
> grand heat load of 400 milliwatts. That's
> MY kind of heat sink problem.
>
> Point is that this particular product,
> no matter how attractively priced, is
> not ready for top billing in our airplanes.
> I think I gave under $10 for the one in
> the picture. I had hopes. We're getting
> close but not quite there yet.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 18 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 04:52:18 PM PST US
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Good Evening Bill,
>
> In am not at all opposed to having an autopilot available. In fact I have
> two of them in my Bonanza. One is a full autopilot with altitude hold and
> approach coupling. The other is an old Century I wing leveler.
>
> I hate carrying any extra weight, but I do consider my back up autopilot
to
> be worth carrying the two point two extra pounds that it weighs.
>
> If I could get one approved in my Stearman at a reasonable cost, I would
> probably do so. My only objection is to installing one as a substitute fo
r
> training and checking. The twenty hours or so of training required to r
each a
>
> high level of rate instrument flight capability seems to me to be a bet
ter
> investment. The cost is about the same, but the training will last a lif
e time
>
> and the rate instruments are available in almost all certificated airpla
nes.
>
> They are low cost enough and light enough to place in everything that ha
s
> any sort of electrical power at all. If no electrical power is available,
a
> venturi will work just fine.
>
> Best of all is to have an autopilot combined with the skills to fly witho
ut
> it. Even an autopilot needs training to use properly.
>
> We can all point out many things that JFKjr needed, but his mistakes coul
d
> have happened to any of us at some stage in our training.
>
> Very Sad and very bad for our light plane image. We do not need such thin
gs
> happening to anyone else.
>
> IFR capability and training would have saved him. Why not encourage all
to
> get that training?
>
> It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get aroun
d
> the country safely in VFR conditions.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 5:44:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> n744bh@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> Bob,
>
> When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you
> should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I understand,
he was
>
> not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p. The NTSB repor
t
> indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something that
any
> low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen. Even high time
IFR
> pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them
. And
>
> when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you a
live
> while you try to sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his airpl
ane
> it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person is buildin
g an
> airplane to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then
you
> sure don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting to work on a Skybolt an
d you
>
> can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in
the
> local area.
>
> Bill
> Glasair SIIS-FT
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 19 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 06:38:39 PM PST US
> From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> Yep, I totally agree Bob. The way I see it was that JFK made 2 mistakes
> and if he had only made one he probably would still be around. His
> first was not waiting until the next morning to make the flight and the
> second was not engaging the a/p when things started to go badly. I have
> an old airline buddy that lives in CT within easy view of Long Island
> Sound when airborne. She went out to fly her Eagle the evening of JFK's
> accident and after a couple of minutes thought to herself "what the heck
> am I doing flying in this haze?" She turned back to her home airfield
> and put the airplane away for another day. The good IFR training is
> always worth the money but there are probably more than a few pilots
> that don't fly enough to maintain a high level of proficiency,
> especially on the 1-2-3 method of instrument flying. Anyway, enough
> from me on this subject.
>
> Bill
> Glasair SIIS-FT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
>
> Good Evening Bill,
>
> In am not at all opposed to having an autopilot available. In fact I
> have two of them in my Bonanza. One is a full autopilot with altitude
> hold and approach coupling. The other is an old Century I wing leveler.
>
> I hate carrying any extra weight, but I do consider my back up
> autopilot to be worth carrying the two point two extra pounds that it
> weighs.
>
> If I could get one approved in my Stearman at a reasonable cost, I
> would probably do so. My only objection is to installing one as a
> substitute for training and checking. The twenty hours or so of
> training required to reach a high level of rate instrument flight
> capability seems to me to be a better investment. The cost is about the
> same, but the training will last a life time and the rate instruments
> are available in almost all certificated airplanes.
>
> They are low cost enough and light enough to place in everything that
> has any sort of electrical power at all. If no electrical power is
> available, a venturi will work just fine.
>
> Best of all is to have an autopilot combined with the skills to fly
> without it. Even an autopilot needs training to use properly.
>
> We can all point out many things that JFKjr needed, but his mistakes
> could have happened to any of us at some stage in our training.
>
> Very Sad and very bad for our light plane image. We do not need such
> things happening to anyone else.
>
> IFR capability and training would have saved him. Why not encourage
> all to get that training?
>
> It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get
> around the country safely in VFR conditions.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
> In a message dated 10/22/2007 5:44:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> n744bh@bellsouth.net writes:
> Bob,
>
> When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer
> that you should depend on an a/p to save your life. But, from what I
> understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an
> a/p. The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial
> disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can
> easily have happen. Even high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining
> proficiency could have it happen to them. And when that happens to you
> a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive while you try to
> sort things out. Heck, JFK was so far behind his airplane it's amazing
> he even got hurt in the crash. Now, if a person is building an airplane
> to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then you sure
> don't need to install an a/p. I'm starting to work on a Skybolt and you
> can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in
> the local area.
>
> Bill
> Glasair SIIS-FT
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> See what's new
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 20 ___________________________
_________
>
>
> Time: 08:46:12 PM PST US
> From: "Neal George" <n8zg@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
>
> Well said Bob ! Ladies and Gentlemen, Old Bob has exposed the nugget of
> this thread.
>
> I'd add that it's immeasurably safer (to your ticket and your person), an
d
> less expensive, too, especially of you use your airplane to go places on
> anything resembling a schedule.
>
> I travel A LOT in the course of my AF duties. I take the CherokeeJet
> whenever possible (115 Kts - WFO, downhill). More often than not, I beat
my
> co-workers there _and_ home, at less expense, and on MY schedule, not the
> cattle car's.
>
> And always on a IFR flight plan. Simply couldn't do it VFR and make the
> meetings (or stay married). IFR will (OK, should) keep one out of a hot
MOA
> or campaigning congressman TFR... even those that bloom out of
> nowhere...after launch...VFR (CAVU, even)...six hours and a fuel stop en
> route... (plausible fiction follows)
> FBI - "Capt George, why were you flying a straight line from Morganton to
> Manassas that intersected the TFR surrounding Congressman Bluster's campa
ign
> stop?"
> Me - "Didn't happen."
> FBI - "Capt George, we have radar track data that puts you directly over
the
> congressman's podium while the TFR was active."
> Me - "I called 1-800-WXBRIEF, talked to YOUR contractor, filed IFR Direct
> MRN-HEF, specifically asked about TFRs, and was ensured there were no TFR
's
> associated with my route of flight. We discussed en route weather and th
e
> area that until recently resembled a certain mouse. I had a discrete squ
awk
> code and was in constant communication with ATC on an IFR flight plan und
er
> ATC control. How could I have violated a TFR?"
> FBI - "Capt George, give me your License."
> Me - "NoSir. I remember the trouble Bob Hoover had... Shall we review t
he
> tape?"
> (End plausible fiction, but I expect it would go downhill from there...)
>
> Anybody remember a few weeks ago when one of our associates was beat up f
or
> "loitering" over a power plant...at >160 kts...more than 5 NM away...well
> over 3000 ft above...on a straight line to landing?
>
> Bonus! - Dxxxx Airlines can't abandon me in Atlanta <8-O - but I CAN drag
> out a fuel stop to enjoy supper, or divert and spend the evening with
> friends or family if the weather or SAFETY dictate...
>
> Neal E. George
> 2023 Everglades Drive
> Navarre, FL 32566
> Home - 850-515-0640
> Cell - 850-218-4838
>
>
> On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com
>
> It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get aroun
d
> the country safely in VFR conditions.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ' together at last. -
Get it now.
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6971033
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07 |
In a message dated 10/25/2007 12:24:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
jessejenks@hotmail.com writes:
Sorry Old Bob. I am genuinely curious though about why you prefer the T&B
over the turn coordinator?
Good Afternoon Jesse,
I have written about that several times on this and other lists. I will send
the compilation of data to you off list. If you can wade through my
disjointed thoughts, you may not agree with my reasons, but I think you will see
how
and why I came to the conclusions that I have.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 7
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Bob and others,
Can someone point me to the "diode note" shown in drawing Z19? Could not
find it in the notes section of the "Connection"
Thanks
Peter Laurence
Message 8
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| Subject: | Z-19 ECU wiring question |
Hi,
I am installing a Z-19 system for my Suzuki 1.3L 4 stroke driven aircraft and have
a question about recommendations for wiring these components in that style
system. And use a Single Toggle Switch to turn them ON/OFF. Each of these components
has their own power lead. I am using RotaryAviation's EC2 engine controller,
and I have received these amperage figures for components:
A. EC2 - .25 amp
B. Injectors - about .75 amp each (exact load depends on rpm)
C. Coil - 1.5 amp average but depends on RPM, could be as high as 9 amps
per coil.
I want to dual power these from the Main Battery Bus and Engine Battery bus using
a Perihelion Schotty Diode (max 60 amps load).
Question 1: In trying to estimate the fuse sizes for the above loads I am unsure
how to do so for the COILS. If I maximize the load size I could be at 36 amps.
At the same time making them 1.5 x 4 = 6 amps worries me with a nuisance fuse
blow.
Question 2: recommendations:
A. total the load outcome from Question 1 and run power wire from a single fuse,
in and out of the diode and into a switch. Then split the power lines into three
on the other side of the switch, and at the components end?
B. fuse each component separately, route each power into the diode, then coming
out of the diode split into three power wires. Connect to a TPST (triple pole
single throw) switch for turning all of them ON/OFF, then continue into each
component.
I've asked Rotaryaviation this question several days ago but they've not gotten
back to me. I need to order wire for this endeavor, whichever way is the best,
and would like to move forward.
Thank you for any suggestions and advice,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141783#141783
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Best Prices Offered Anywhere |
Message 10
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| Subject: | Electrical Drawing Critisism Wanted |
Here is the drawing I have generated so far based on what I hope I have learned
from this group and Bob's book. I am building a Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith 601XL.
I am trying to make it a fairly simple day/night VFR machine. Electrical
items planned include Dynon FlightDek 180, Garmin 296, Com, Xponder, Trutrack
wing leveler, intercom, fuel boost pump and nav/landing/cockpit lights. If
anybody here has a few minutes, please shoot holes in my overall electrical schematic.
It is a combination of a few different Z diagrams and other builder's
sites, like Matt's zodiacxl.com.
You may debate my choice of instruments if you wish, but I am mainly trying to
make sure I didn't do anything stupid with the electrons and get to the point
of passing the smoke test. I started this exercise knowing virtually nothing
so I guess this is a final exam of sorts. Now fire away.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done, engine next.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141813#141813
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/my_drawing_01_124.pdf
Message 11
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| Subject: | Off to Houston . . . |
Dr. Dee and I are hitting the asphalt early
tomorrow for a little jaunt down to Houston, TX
for a weekend seminar in the facilities of EAA
Chapter 12. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Houston.html
Will be off line until Monday. Come join us if
you can, you don't need a reservation.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z 19 drawing |
At 02:12 PM 10/25/2007 -0400, you wrote:
><PLaurence@the-beach.net>
>
>
>Bob and others,
>
>Can someone point me to the "diode note" shown in drawing Z19? Could not
>find it in the notes section of the "Connection"
Note 24 is on page Z-11 of appendix Z at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11K.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
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