AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 11/05/07


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:15 AM - Re: How small battery for the B&C BC320 starter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 10:10 AM - Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? (mosquito56)
     3. 11:24 AM - Re: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
     4. 12:11 PM - Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram (txpilot)
     5. 12:31 PM - Re: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? (Scott R. Shook)
     6. 01:02 PM - Battery Capacity tester (Peter Laurence)
     7. 02:20 PM - LR-3 Controller (Loren Schreck - consolidated)
     8. 05:26 PM - Re: LR-3 Controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 05:43 PM - Re: Battery Capacity tester (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 08:16 PM - Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram (vozzen)
    12. 09:03 PM - VOR check ()
    13. 09:42 PM - Re: VOR check (Bruce Gray)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:15:06 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: How small battery for the B&C BC320 starter?
    At 09:18 PM 11/4/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >The TYPE is superior but there are other equivalent units to the Odysey >IMO such as the Dekka series by East Penn Mfg. >Even the 15AH one in my $30. Chinese automobile booster has survived much >more abuse than I expected. I've even run a 1 kw inverter off it for power >at the airport. >Ken > >Walter Fellows wrote: > >>Wow, the website has a vicious set of pop-ups. This review seems to be to >>good to be true, is this one brand of battery really so superior? All comments and observations concerning the relative "goodness" of batteries are, no doubt, offered in good faith and honorable intent. I am reminded of the words of a learned gentleman named Lord Kelvin who is reported to have said: "Until you can measure something and express it in numbers, you have only the beginning of understanding." This is a simple-idea . . . a truth that stands up to skeptical scrutiny. Of course, the same gentleman was heard to opine: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." and "Radio has no future." Individuals of poor reasoning skills and/or ulterior motive have used the later quotations to cast doubt on the validity of the first. Here is a simple lesson in separation of repeatable experiment from un-quantified observation/ opinion where the later is unsupportable by the former. This lesson also goes to the notion that the words of no individual should be accepted as gospel until and unless the listener benefits from real teaching where words are accompanied with tools for understanding. Batteries have recipes for success that are affected by simple-ideas (physics), design (engineering), craftsmanship (willingness and skill to fully exploit both physics and engineering) and to a certain extent, marketplace actions designed to minimize deleterious effects on performance after the product leaves the factory. As consumers of products like batteries with wildly varying prices, claims, and anecdotal observations, we can only be sure of data derived from repeatable experiment scrutinized for flaws of measurement or logic by which those measurements are interpreted. This is a rigorous exercise that few individuals in both the supplier and consumer side of the market are able or willing to conduct . . . which leaves us with tiny corks of data floating on a sea of anecdotes and the self- serving enthusiasm of those who would hope to exchange your $time$ for their product. Bottom line is that any of us can contribute to the wealth of knowledge and ultimately understanding of any product by giving it a try. Get some rudimentary battery measurement tools . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Battery_Testers/HF_Carbon_Pile_Load.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Battery_Testers/CBA2_1.jpg then craft and conduct the experiment. If the results of the experiment are interesting and thought provoking, perhaps someone else will endeavor to repeat the experiment and validate, refine or refute the original work. Short of this effort, be mindful that all other words describing experiences and/or opinions about batteries are at best exceedingly coarse data which cannot be depended upon if ones choice of batteries has important consequences for having made a poor decision. Finally, unless one compares engineering data for one product against the data of another product, the website where any product is offered for sale should be viewed with the most rigorous skepticism. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:10:29 AM PST US
    Subject: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone?
    From: "mosquito56" <mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
    I ran my wires from my wingtip through a cheap plastic tube I got from Autozone. It looks better than tie wrapping to the rib holes. I don't remember if I tie wrapped the wires inside and was wondering if I needed to tie wrap the wires inside and whether I need to remove the tube in case there is a fire. The wing is completely closed except the fiberglass wingtip on the Zod601xl but I can always drill it out if safety is a concern. Any input on this subject? Don -------- Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx Apologies if I seem antagonistic. I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143998#143998


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:24:51 AM PST US
    Subject: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone?
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Whats the tube made off?....If it's PVC I probably would not have done this but if you block off the holes between the cabin and the wings then I probably wouldn't worry about it. If the conduit is made of nylon then that's even better as this burns with less fumes...In that case I wouldn't bother blocking the cabin from the wings. Not a big deal I don't think assuming you have not used PVC coverd wiring. Don't bother tie wrapping the wires inside the tube. Frank 601 HDS 400 hours RV7a 230 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mosquito56 Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 10:09 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? --> <mosquito-56@hotmail.com> I ran my wires from my wingtip through a cheap plastic tube I got from Autozone. It looks better than tie wrapping to the rib holes. I don't remember if I tie wrapped the wires inside and was wondering if I needed to tie wrap the wires inside and whether I need to remove the tube in case there is a fire. The wing is completely closed except the fiberglass wingtip on the Zod601xl but I can always drill it out if safety is a concern. Any input on this subject? Don -------- Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx Apologies if I seem antagonistic. I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143998#143998


    Message 4


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    Time: 12:11:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram
    From: "txpilot" <djg7@comcast.net>
    OK. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying it. Two other questions come to mind: is the CB really necessary if there's also a fuse in series? After reading the Aeroelectric Connection, Bob has me sold on fuses and I didn't plan on adding any breakers to my panel. Second, regarding E-bus Alternate feed switch, is it a good idea to make that a guarded switch? I would hate for that switch to be accidentally left on overnight and thus draining the battery. Thanks, Dan Ginty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144018#144018


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:31:07 PM PST US
    From: "Scott R. Shook" <sshook@cox.net>
    Subject: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone?
    Even though I am still in the building phase I will weigh in as well... I put 1/2 OD flexible tube in my wings as conduit as well and here is my methodology behind that decision. 1. It's not inside the cabin with me and that was a conscious decision. 2. It's a small amount of tubing, single run one in each wing. 3. I have not tie-wrapped any wires in there because I am not worried about chafing inside the tube as Tefzel is pretty sturdy and against the conduit it should be fine. Once the wires leave the conduit for terminal blocks on the outboard and inboard ribs, there are Adel clamps holding the wires preventing stress against the terminal block connections, wire movement, etc. Scott R. Shook RV-7A (Building) N696JS (Reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mosquito56 Sent: Monday, 05 November, 2007 11:09 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? <mosquito-56@hotmail.com> I ran my wires from my wingtip through a cheap plastic tube I got from Autozone. It looks better than tie wrapping to the rib holes. I don't remember if I tie wrapped the wires inside and was wondering if I needed to tie wrap the wires inside and whether I need to remove the tube in case there is a fire. The wing is completely closed except the fiberglass wingtip on the Zod601xl but I can always drill it out if safety is a concern. Any input on this subject? Don -------- Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx Apologies if I seem antagonistic. I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143998#143998


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:02:08 PM PST US
    From: " Peter Laurence" <Dr.Laurence@mbdi.org>
    Subject: Battery Capacity tester
    Bob, A couple of years ago you were toying with the idea of making a circuit board utilizing a processor, A/D converter ,etc for a battery capacity tester and making it available the OBAM community. Any update? Peter Laurence


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:20:37 PM PST US
    From: "Loren Schreck - consolidated" <lschreck@consolidated.net>
    Subject: LR-3 Controller
    First time on the list though I have been lurking for a while. I'm about 6 months from actually laying down any wire but am in the beginning stages of designing the electrical system for a light IFR - RV7. Z-11 with an aux battery or Z-13/8 are front runners right now. My question is about the replacement of the LR-3 controller with seperate regulator/OV protection/LV warning on the latest Z-13/8 drawings. I attended Bob's seminar last weekend in Houston, learned a lot and can't wait to get wiring. I asked about this change in the diagrams and the answer had something to do with philosophical differences. Can you be more specific? I like the idea of one controller that covers the OV/LV concerns as well. Is the reason for the change a cost issue or a reliability one? If I do go with the updated drawings where do I find the AEC9005-101 Low Volatage monitor? Thanks, Loren


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:26:25 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: LR-3 Controller
    At 04:18 PM 11/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: >First time on the list though I have been lurking for a while. I'm about >6 months from actually laying down any wire but am in the beginning stages >of designing the electrical system for a light IFR - RV7. Z-11 with an >aux battery or Z-13/8 are front runners right now. My question is about >the replacement of the LR-3 controller with seperate regulator/OV >protection/LV warning on the latest Z-13/8 drawings. > >I attended Bob's seminar last weekend in Houston, learned a lot and can't >wait to get wiring. I asked about this change in the diagrams and the >answer had something to do with philosophical differences. Can you be >more specific? I like the idea of one controller that covers the OV/LV >concerns as well. Is the reason for the change a cost issue or a >reliability one? If I do go with the updated drawings where do I find the >AEC9005-101 Low Volatage monitor? There are as many ways to "cook up" a successful, cost effective system as there are cooks. You can go any number of ways. The LR3 delivers on its performance promise as does the combination of components depicted in Z13/8. The latter combination is less expensive but more pieces . . . and the generic "ford" regulator is not adjustable. But there are adjustable regulators of other pedigree too. The Z-figures are primarily illustrations of architecture. The choice of parts used within the these architectures is open to a variety of suitable choices which includes the LR3, components shown, and others. The AEC9005 is being replaced by the AEC9011 which is described in preliminary data at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf This is a three-channel device which may be used to watch for LV conditions on two sources and latches a relay on an OV condition on a third source. This makes it suited for use as any combination of the three tasks. The circuitry has been completed and I'm working out packaging details so as to reduce production costs. This product will be available in a month or so but there are any number of LV warning products that would do the job too. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:39:50 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram
    At 12:10 PM 11/5/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >OK. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying it. > >Two other questions come to mind: is the CB really necessary if there's >also a fuse in series? After reading the Aeroelectric Connection, Bob has >me sold on fuses and I didn't plan on adding any breakers to my panel. I presume you're speaking of the alternator control feeder to a breaker that is upstream of a crowbar ov protection module. There's a fusible link which is not really a fuse but a concession to traditional notion in the T/C aircraft world for "protecting" longer than 6". If you use some other ov protection scheme, you could leave the breaker out and just run the alternator field from a standard fuse on the block. One choice would be using the AEC9011 generator/alternator OV relay feature. This eliminates the need for a breaker. It's not practical to use a fuse upstream of a breaker . . . crow-barring a 5A breaker will pop a 20A fuse, hence the fusible link with a very robust I-squared*T fusing constant in comparison with the breaker. >Second, regarding E-bus Alternate feed switch, is it a good idea to make >that a guarded switch? I would hate for that switch to be accidentally >left on overnight and thus draining the battery. Have your low oil pressure warning light run from the e-bus . . . or buzzer. If the engine is not running and the e-bus is up, it notifies you. But then, one can use guards on any switch in the airplane. Are there not things on the e-bus that would stay lit-up as sufficient warning? My personal preference is making it a checklist item. Except for pre-flighting the e-bus alternate feed switch, there's no reason to turn it on except in case of alternator failure . . . hence probability of accidental failure to turn off at end of flight is considerably reduced. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:43:06 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery Capacity tester
    At 04:00 PM 11/5/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Bob, > >A couple of years ago you were toying with the idea of making a circuit >board utilizing a processor, A/D converter ,etc for a battery capacity >tester and making it available the OBAM community. > >Any update? I've prototyped and tested a device that will test two pairs of AA or AAA cells for the purpose of grading the condition of rechargeable cells and gauging the performance of various one-time-use cells. As of this time, I'm undecided about putting it on the market. There's another product under development that will test the capacity of the ship's main battery in-situ by using e-bus loads to deplete the battery and then connect to a charger/maintainer so that the battery is ready for flight at your next return. Software is being crafted for this product. It goes in the same package as the AEC9011 cited earlier. Bob. . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:16:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram
    From: "vozzen" <vozzen@yahoo.com>
    Along these same Z-16 lines (Jabiru/Rotax with 20 amp AC generator)... Is it any problem for the regulator if it's control ("sense") is fed from the same circuit breaker as the OV module ( and OV-relay coil)? In other words, if the OV relay trips (breaking the AC line between the alternator and regulator), the "sense" line to the regulator opens, dropping the control voltage into the regulator to zero. Is this a problem? Would there be any advantage (or disadvantage) to feeding the regulator control directly from the bus? Thanks in advance. Richard, 601XL/3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144078#144078


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:03:05 PM PST US
    Subject: VOR check
    From: <rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
    I am building a VFR Europa with a Becker transceiver and a Vertex handheld that is panel mounted and plumbed into the intercom/audio panel. It is easily removable. The Vertex has a simple VOR in it. I heard a pilot talking today, speaking of having to keep up with VOR checks so he is legal when he gets ramp checked. Can someone enlighten me as to what a VOR check is and how you do it, how often you do it and if you think I need to do it? I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296. Thx. Ron Parigoris


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:42:04 PM PST US
    From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
    Subject: VOR check
    A VOR check is only needed if you fly IFR. Every 30 days you must do and make a written record of one of the following, 1) The degree variation of the VOR when tested against a VOT (VOT Test) signal. 2) The degree variation when tested at an approved VOR test point. Normally a surveyed location on an airport ramp with a nearby VOR. 3) If dual VOR equipped, a cross check between the 2 VOR's when tuned to the same station/radial. The allowed variation is spelled out in the FAR's. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:01 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: VOR check I am building a VFR Europa with a Becker transceiver and a Vertex handheld that is panel mounted and plumbed into the intercom/audio panel. It is easily removable. The Vertex has a simple VOR in it. I heard a pilot talking today, speaking of having to keep up with VOR checks so he is legal when he gets ramp checked. Can someone enlighten me as to what a VOR check is and how you do it, how often you do it and if you think I need to do it? I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296. Thx. Ron Parigoris




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