Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:15 AM - Re: How small battery for the B&C BC320 starter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 10:10 AM - Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? (mosquito56)
3. 11:24 AM - Re: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 12:11 PM - Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram (txpilot)
5. 12:31 PM - Re: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? (Scott R. Shook)
6. 01:02 PM - Battery Capacity tester (Peter Laurence)
7. 02:20 PM - LR-3 Controller (Loren Schreck - consolidated)
8. 05:26 PM - Re: LR-3 Controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 05:43 PM - Re: Battery Capacity tester (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:16 PM - Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram (vozzen)
12. 09:03 PM - VOR check ()
13. 09:42 PM - Re: VOR check (Bruce Gray)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: How small battery for the B&C BC320 starter? |
At 09:18 PM 11/4/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>
>The TYPE is superior but there are other equivalent units to the Odysey
>IMO such as the Dekka series by East Penn Mfg.
>Even the 15AH one in my $30. Chinese automobile booster has survived much
>more abuse than I expected. I've even run a 1 kw inverter off it for power
>at the airport.
>Ken
>
>Walter Fellows wrote:
>
>>Wow, the website has a vicious set of pop-ups. This review seems to be to
>>good to be true, is this one brand of battery really so superior?
All comments and observations concerning
the relative "goodness" of batteries are,
no doubt, offered in good faith and honorable
intent. I am reminded of the words of a
learned gentleman named Lord Kelvin who
is reported to have said:
"Until you can measure something and express
it in numbers, you have only the beginning
of understanding."
This is a simple-idea . . . a truth that
stands up to skeptical scrutiny. Of course,
the same gentleman was heard to opine:
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are
impossible." and "Radio has no future."
Individuals of poor reasoning skills and/or
ulterior motive have used the later quotations
to cast doubt on the validity of the first.
Here is a simple lesson in separation of repeatable
experiment from un-quantified observation/
opinion where the later is unsupportable by
the former. This lesson also goes to the
notion that the words of no individual
should be accepted as gospel until and
unless the listener benefits from real
teaching where words are accompanied with
tools for understanding.
Batteries have recipes for success that
are affected by simple-ideas (physics),
design (engineering), craftsmanship
(willingness and skill to fully exploit
both physics and engineering) and to
a certain extent, marketplace actions
designed to minimize deleterious effects
on performance after the product leaves the
factory.
As consumers of products like batteries
with wildly varying prices, claims,
and anecdotal observations, we can only
be sure of data derived from repeatable
experiment scrutinized for flaws of
measurement or logic by which those
measurements are interpreted.
This is a rigorous exercise that few
individuals in both the supplier and
consumer side of the market are able
or willing to conduct . . . which leaves
us with tiny corks of data floating
on a sea of anecdotes and the self-
serving enthusiasm of those who would
hope to exchange your $time$ for their
product.
Bottom line is that any of us can
contribute to the wealth of knowledge
and ultimately understanding of any
product by giving it a try. Get some
rudimentary battery measurement tools . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Battery_Testers/HF_Carbon_Pile_Load.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Battery_Testers/CBA2_1.jpg
then craft and conduct the experiment. If the
results of the experiment are interesting
and thought provoking, perhaps someone
else will endeavor to repeat the experiment
and validate, refine or refute the original
work.
Short of this effort, be mindful that
all other words describing experiences and/or
opinions about batteries are at best exceedingly
coarse data which cannot be depended upon
if ones choice of batteries has important
consequences for having made a poor decision.
Finally, unless one compares engineering data
for one product against the data of another
product, the website where any product is offered
for sale should be viewed with the most rigorous
skepticism.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? |
I ran my wires from my wingtip through a cheap plastic tube I got from Autozone.
It looks better than tie wrapping to the rib holes. I don't remember if I tie
wrapped the wires inside and was wondering if I needed to tie wrap the wires
inside and whether I need to remove the tube in case there is a fire.
The wing is completely closed except the fiberglass wingtip on the Zod601xl but
I can always drill it out if safety is a concern.
Any input on this subject?
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance
in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143998#143998
Message 3
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Subject: | Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? |
Whats the tube made off?....If it's PVC I probably would not have done
this but if you block off the holes between the cabin and the wings then
I probably wouldn't worry about it.
If the conduit is made of nylon then that's even better as this burns
with less fumes...In that case I wouldn't bother blocking the cabin from
the wings.
Not a big deal I don't think assuming you have not used PVC coverd
wiring.
Don't bother tie wrapping the wires inside the tube.
Frank
601 HDS 400 hours
RV7a 230 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mosquito56
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from
autozone?
--> <mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
I ran my wires from my wingtip through a cheap plastic tube I got from
Autozone. It looks better than tie wrapping to the rib holes. I don't
remember if I tie wrapped the wires inside and was wondering if I needed
to tie wrap the wires inside and whether I need to remove the tube in
case there is a fire.
The wing is completely closed except the fiberglass wingtip on the
Zod601xl but I can always drill it out if safety is a concern.
Any input on this subject?
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals
for assistance in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143998#143998
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram |
OK. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying it.
Two other questions come to mind: is the CB really necessary if there's also a
fuse in series? After reading the Aeroelectric Connection, Bob has me sold on
fuses and I didn't plan on adding any breakers to my panel.
Second, regarding E-bus Alternate feed switch, is it a good idea to make that a
guarded switch? I would hate for that switch to be accidentally left on overnight
and thus draining the battery.
Thanks,
Dan Ginty
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144018#144018
Message 5
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Subject: | Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone? |
Even though I am still in the building phase I will weigh in as well...
I put 1/2 OD flexible tube in my wings as conduit as well and here is my
methodology behind that decision.
1. It's not inside the cabin with me and that was a conscious decision.
2. It's a small amount of tubing, single run one in each wing.
3. I have not tie-wrapped any wires in there because I am not worried about
chafing inside the tube as Tefzel is pretty sturdy and against the conduit
it should be fine.
Once the wires leave the conduit for terminal blocks on the outboard and
inboard ribs, there are Adel clamps holding the wires preventing stress
against the terminal block connections, wire movement, etc.
Scott R. Shook
RV-7A (Building)
N696JS (Reserved)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mosquito56
Sent: Monday, 05 November, 2007 11:09
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring inside cheap plastic tubes from autozone?
<mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
I ran my wires from my wingtip through a cheap plastic tube I got from
Autozone. It looks better than tie wrapping to the rib holes. I don't
remember if I tie wrapped the wires inside and was wondering if I needed to
tie wrap the wires inside and whether I need to remove the tube in case
there is a fire.
The wing is completely closed except the fiberglass wingtip on the
Zod601xl but I can always drill it out if safety is a concern.
Any input on this subject?
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for
assistance in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143998#143998
Message 6
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Subject: | Battery Capacity tester |
Bob,
A couple of years ago you were toying with the idea of making a circuit
board utilizing a processor, A/D converter ,etc for a battery capacity
tester and making it available the OBAM community.
Any update?
Peter Laurence
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First time on the list though I have been lurking for a while. I'm
about 6 months from actually laying down any wire but am in the
beginning stages of designing the electrical system for a light IFR -
RV7. Z-11 with an aux battery or Z-13/8 are front runners right now.
My question is about the replacement of the LR-3 controller with
seperate regulator/OV protection/LV warning on the latest Z-13/8
drawings.
I attended Bob's seminar last weekend in Houston, learned a lot and
can't wait to get wiring. I asked about this change in the diagrams and
the answer had something to do with philosophical differences. Can you
be more specific? I like the idea of one controller that covers the
OV/LV concerns as well. Is the reason for the change a cost issue or a
reliability one? If I do go with the updated drawings where do I find
the AEC9005-101 Low Volatage monitor?
Thanks,
Loren
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: LR-3 Controller |
At 04:18 PM 11/5/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>First time on the list though I have been lurking for a while. I'm about
>6 months from actually laying down any wire but am in the beginning stages
>of designing the electrical system for a light IFR - RV7. Z-11 with an
>aux battery or Z-13/8 are front runners right now. My question is about
>the replacement of the LR-3 controller with seperate regulator/OV
>protection/LV warning on the latest Z-13/8 drawings.
>
>I attended Bob's seminar last weekend in Houston, learned a lot and can't
>wait to get wiring. I asked about this change in the diagrams and the
>answer had something to do with philosophical differences. Can you be
>more specific? I like the idea of one controller that covers the OV/LV
>concerns as well. Is the reason for the change a cost issue or a
>reliability one? If I do go with the updated drawings where do I find the
>AEC9005-101 Low Volatage monitor?
There are as many ways to "cook up" a successful,
cost effective system as there are cooks. You can
go any number of ways. The LR3 delivers on its
performance promise as does the combination of
components depicted in Z13/8. The latter combination
is less expensive but more pieces . . . and the
generic "ford" regulator is not adjustable. But
there are adjustable regulators of other pedigree
too.
The Z-figures are primarily illustrations of
architecture. The choice of parts used within
the these architectures is open to a variety
of suitable choices which includes the LR3,
components shown, and others.
The AEC9005 is being replaced by the AEC9011
which is described in preliminary data
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
This is a three-channel device which may
be used to watch for LV conditions on
two sources and latches a relay on
an OV condition on a third source. This
makes it suited for use as any combination
of the three tasks.
The circuitry has been completed and I'm
working out packaging details so as to
reduce production costs. This product
will be available in a month or so but
there are any number of LV warning
products that would do the job too.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram |
At 12:10 PM 11/5/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>OK. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying it.
>
>Two other questions come to mind: is the CB really necessary if there's
>also a fuse in series? After reading the Aeroelectric Connection, Bob has
>me sold on fuses and I didn't plan on adding any breakers to my panel.
I presume you're speaking of the alternator control
feeder to a breaker that is upstream of a crowbar
ov protection module. There's a fusible link which is
not really a fuse but a concession to traditional
notion in the T/C aircraft world for "protecting"
longer than 6". If you use some other ov protection
scheme, you could leave the breaker out and just
run the alternator field from a standard fuse
on the block. One choice would be using the AEC9011
generator/alternator OV relay feature. This
eliminates the need for a breaker.
It's not practical to use a fuse upstream
of a breaker . . . crow-barring a 5A breaker
will pop a 20A fuse, hence the fusible link
with a very robust I-squared*T fusing constant
in comparison with the breaker.
>Second, regarding E-bus Alternate feed switch, is it a good idea to make
>that a guarded switch? I would hate for that switch to be accidentally
>left on overnight and thus draining the battery.
Have your low oil pressure warning light run
from the e-bus . . . or buzzer. If the engine
is not running and the e-bus is up, it notifies
you. But then, one can use guards on any switch
in the airplane. Are there not things on the
e-bus that would stay lit-up as sufficient
warning? My personal preference is making it
a checklist item. Except for pre-flighting the
e-bus alternate feed switch, there's no reason
to turn it on except in case of alternator
failure . . . hence probability of accidental
failure to turn off at end of flight is
considerably reduced.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Battery Capacity tester |
At 04:00 PM 11/5/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>A couple of years ago you were toying with the idea of making a circuit
>board utilizing a processor, A/D converter ,etc for a battery capacity
>tester and making it available the OBAM community.
>
>Any update?
I've prototyped and tested a device that
will test two pairs of AA or AAA cells
for the purpose of grading the condition
of rechargeable cells and gauging the
performance of various one-time-use
cells. As of this time, I'm undecided
about putting it on the market.
There's another product under development
that will test the capacity of the ship's
main battery in-situ by using e-bus loads
to deplete the battery and then connect
to a charger/maintainer so that the battery
is ready for flight at your next return.
Software is being crafted for this product.
It goes in the same package as the AEC9011
cited earlier.
Bob. . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Questions on Z-16 Diagram |
Along these same Z-16 lines (Jabiru/Rotax with 20 amp AC generator)...
Is it any problem for the regulator if it's control ("sense") is fed from the
same circuit breaker as the OV module ( and OV-relay coil)?
In other words, if the OV relay trips (breaking the AC line between the alternator
and regulator), the "sense" line to the regulator opens, dropping the control
voltage into the regulator to zero. Is this a problem?
Would there be any advantage (or disadvantage) to feeding the regulator control
directly from the bus?
Thanks in advance.
Richard, 601XL/3300
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144078#144078
Message 12
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I am building a VFR Europa with a Becker transceiver and a Vertex handheld
that is panel mounted and plumbed into the intercom/audio panel. It is
easily removable.
The Vertex has a simple VOR in it.
I heard a pilot talking today, speaking of having to keep up with VOR
checks so he is legal when he gets ramp checked.
Can someone enlighten me as to what a VOR check is and how you do it, how
often you do it and if you think I need to do it?
I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 13
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A VOR check is only needed if you fly IFR.
Every 30 days you must do and make a written record of one of the following,
1) The degree variation of the VOR when tested against a VOT (VOT Test)
signal.
2) The degree variation when tested at an approved VOR test point. Normally
a surveyed location on an airport ramp with a nearby VOR.
3) If dual VOR equipped, a cross check between the 2 VOR's when tuned to the
same station/radial.
The allowed variation is spelled out in the FAR's.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: VOR check
I am building a VFR Europa with a Becker transceiver and a Vertex handheld
that is panel mounted and plumbed into the intercom/audio panel. It is
easily removable.
The Vertex has a simple VOR in it.
I heard a pilot talking today, speaking of having to keep up with VOR checks
so he is legal when he gets ramp checked.
Can someone enlighten me as to what a VOR check is and how you do it, how
often you do it and if you think I need to do it?
I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
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