---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/09/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:38 AM - If You Got This Email, You Haven't Made A Contribution Yet! :-) (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:59 AM - Runaway trim (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 2. 08:11 AM - Antennae connector (Ernest Christley) 3. 10:28 AM - Re: LR-3 Controller (dksington) 4. 11:44 AM - Re: Batteries (Kevin Boddicker) 5. 01:28 PM - Re: 496 Audio (Dave Saylor) 6. 01:45 PM - 396/496 Audio Revisited. (emrath@comcast.net) 7. 04:18 PM - Wire Protection - Again (Valovich, Paul) 8. 04:50 PM - Re: Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:57 PM - Re: Re: LR-3 Controller (Matt Prather) 10. 06:41 PM - Re: Antennae connector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:17 PM - Re: Antennae connector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:39 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: If You Got This Email, You Haven't Made A Contribution Yet! :-) Dear Listers, If you received this particular Matronics List Email message, its because you haven't yet made a Contribution to support your Lists! Implemented for the first time last year, the Matronics system selectively sends out the Contribution messages to those that forgot to whip out the 'ol credit card this year to support the continued operation and upgrade of the Matronics Email Lists! Don't you wish PBS worked that way? :-) You heard that right. Once you make your Contribution, these support requests messages during November will suddenly stop coming to your personal email inbox! I wanted to implement something like this for a number of years, but it was always such a daunting task to modify the back-end List processing code, that I just kept putting it off. Finally last year, I just decided to bite the bullet and put the code-pounding time it to make it work. A few days later, bam! A working system! I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware and software that are required to run a List Site like this. It also goes to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the rather huge electric bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered up. I run ALL of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because when combined with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercialism that is so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have it on my Email List site. If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [Please note the following regarding the selective posting system. There are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution related message. These situations include if someone replies to one of the messages, or when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum. Since most of these are anonymous public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.] ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:10 AM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Runaway trim Frank is correct: The folks at the Portland RVators did some testing on the runaway trim issue and confirmed this. While full up or down trim is difficult to counter-act when the aircraft is flying at high speed, simply throttling back and slowing down restores sufficient control authority to the pilot that a safe landing can be made. One thing I have not heard mentioned is elevator trim twitchiness in the RV aircraft. I had heard some folks mention that there is too much (electric) trim twitchiness at high speed and, trim does not respond fast enough when the aircraft is flying slow in the pattern. So....I purchased a trim control module from F-1 Rocket Boy to solve this (perceived) problem. I have a micro switch that opens when the flaps are down to send a signal to the trim control module to change the trim motor speed. One of the design features of this unit is that it has a runaway trim sensing feature built in. If the trim button is held for more than 5 seconds (ie. a trim wire shorted to ground), the trim control module assumes a runaway condition and shuts off the trim motor. Cycling power returns the unit to normal operating condition. Does anyone on the list use one of these trim control modules? Is it worth the time and effort I had to put into wiring it into my system (the price was reasonable)? And lastly, has it been reliable and does it always work as advertised? Since the airplane hasn't flown yet I'd like to know what to expect. Thanks. Dean RV-6A N197DM Functional (electron) checkout in progress. >__________________________ Original Message________________________________ > >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: TRIM Disconnect Switch >From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >And if you have a fast airplane like an RV or Glassair and the stick >forces get too high then simply slow down. > >I certainly would not bother with another switch. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:54 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antennae connector I'm buying a used transponder that does not have the atennae connectory on the rear. This is the type that locks into the mounting tray with a clip ring, and the coax exits out the side. Is there a proper name for this connector? Where could I obtain just one? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LR-3 Controller From: "dksington" Forgive my ignorance, but why would the LR3-C be incompatible? Does it not merely send 'switch-on, switch-off' commands to the alternator, and as such as far as the alternator is concerned it is merely being told to turn on or off? If this is the case (and I am guessing that there is more to it) then am I not simply doubling up on alternator control, and with the previously documented problems with internal regulation am insuring against a reasonably likely future failure of the internal regulation mechanism? Are the dimensions of the S701-1 the same as the stock Vans' master contactor (ES 24115) (which I already have attached to my firewall)? Thank you for your patience with my questions Derek. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144823#144823 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:00 AM PST US From: Kevin Boddicker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries Bob, You should receive the batteries Monday or Tuesday via USPS. Kevin Boddicker Tri Q 200 N7868B 78.6 hours Luana, IA. On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:12 AM 11/7/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >> Bob, >> A few weeks back someone on the list posted a url for some low >> priced AA and AAA cells. >> You asked him to send some to you for evaluation, if he made the >> purchase. >> I did indeed make that purchase. If the other lister has not send >> you any cells, I would be happy to. They are from Batteries dot >> com. 500 cells for $49.99 + $11.98 shipping. Thats 12.3 cents per >> cell delivered! The cells have a 12 2012 out date. I was >> concerned that they might be short dated for that price. >> If you would like to hook them up to your battery runner downer I >> please let me know, I will send some to you. > > Okay. A pair will suffice. I didn't get samples > from the other gentleman. > > On this same topic, Big Lots has a 48-pak of > AA Maxell alkalines on sale for $9.00 here in > Wichita. Best price yet at under 20-cents per > cell. > > I'm checking their capacity now. Will add your > samples to the data base. Thanks for your > time and interest. > > Bob Nuckolls > 6936 Bainbridge Road > Wichita, KS 67226-1008 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:53 PM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 496 Audio Thanks, Ken. I'll pass this on to Jacek, who did most of the grunt work. Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Melvin Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 496 Audio --> I congratulate Dave Saylor upon his excellent instructions for connecting up the audio messages/warnings from the Garmin 496 into the audiopanel. I can now confirm that his method, described on this list November 1st., delivers the desired results, loud and clear. Kenneth Melvin, RV9A, Hillsboro, Oregon. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:58 PM PST US From: emrath@comcast.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: 396/496 Audio Revisited. Rumen, Thanks for this posting, it is helpful. What I would like to do is have the audio warnings input to the audio panel and to be able to listen to my IPOD. One can turn off the XM radio, if so subscribed, but the unit needs to be always connected to the panel. So for me, it appears using the Voice+ input to the audio panel's unswitched input is the way to go and use the switched audio inputs for the IPOD. Alternatively, 1/8" audio could be connected in parallel with the IPOD, maybe using 220 ohm resisters, to the Audio Panel's switched input and thus have both the IPOD and Warnings muted by radio calls. Someone please correct me if this doesn't seem correct, given the below informaton Time: 02:46:14 PM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: 396/496 Audio revisited Thanks for all postings on the subject. I just re-reviewed the manuals and talked to Garmin. Also, I have gone through 196, 296 and 396. To summarize on the AUDIO subject: In aviation mode: 296 has terrain and obstructions, but no VOICE warnings 396 and 496 both have terrain and obstructions, as well as the following VOICE warnings: -Terrain -Obstructions -500 ft AGL -Sink Rate -Traffic (if so equipped) The available outputs for the above warnings (as well as for XM audio) are: 1) Data cable (voice+ and voice- ; use only voice+ , if not using the Garmin loudspeaker; do not use voice- ; instead, the ground of the power cable is used; voice- is meant for loudspeakers with no connection to the unit. The Data Cable output is mono, low impedance, amplified (for loudspeaker) The volume of the output can be controlled. Music (if XM music is available) is soft-muted during warnings 2) 3.5 mm audio jack - stereo, line volume, higher impedance Music (if XM music is available) is soft-muted during warnings. The volume of the output can be controlled. So, there is no difference between 396 and 496 in terms of available audio (be it warnings or music) and there is no difference between the audio available from the data cable (voice+ to loudspeaker) and the audio output (3.5 mm jack). The only difference here is impedance, signal, and mono/stereo. Volume is controllable in both cases and XM music is soft-muted by the audio warnings. Volume controls everything coming out as audio [Terrain, Obstructions, 500 ft AGL, Sink Rate, Traffic (if so equipped), XM audio]. In aviation mode, Garmin does not encourage feeding the data+/- to the panel because it is an amplified low impedance, mono output, intended for speaker and the signal carries the same info as the 3.5 mm audio jack. Finally, the audio can be fed to a switched/soft-muted input of the audio panel or intercom (to be muted by any communication) or to a non-switched input (to be always audible). Problem is in the latter case, if there is XM audio, it will be always on during ATC communications. How to feed the audio from the 396/496 is a matter of personal preference; there are advantages and disadvantages with any approach; all taken into consideration, my preference is to use the 3.5 mm line audio and to feed it to a soft-muted input (e.g. intercom). Rumen
Rumen,
Thanks for this posting, it is helpful.
 
What I would like to do is have the audio warnings input to the audio panel and to be able to listen to my IPOD.  One can turn off the XM radio, if so subscribed, but the unit needs to be always connected to the panel.  So for me, it appears using the Voice+ input to the audio panel's unswitched input is the way to go and use the switched audio inputs for the IPOD. Alternatively, 1/8" audio could be connected in parallel with the IPOD, maybe using 220 ohm resisters, to the Audio Panel's switched input and thus have both the IPOD and Warnings muted by radio calls.   Someone please correct me if this doesn't seem correct, given the below informaton
 
Time: 02:46:14 PM PST US
From: rd2@evenlink.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 396/496 Audio revisited


Thanks for all postings on the subject.

I just re-reviewed the manuals and talked to Garmin. Also, I have gone
through 196, 296 and 396.

To summarize on the AUDIO subject:

In aviation mode:

296 has terrain and obstructions, but no VOICE warnings

396 and 496 both have terrain and obstructions, as well as the following
VOICE warnings:

-Terrain
-Obstructions
-500 ft AGL
-Sink Rate 
-Traffic (if so equipped)

The available outputs for the above warnings (as well as for XM audio) are:

1) Data cable (voice+ and voice- ; use only voice+ , if not using the
Garmin loudspeaker; do not use voice- ; inst ead, the ground of the power
cable is used; voice- is meant for loudspeakers with no connection to the
unit.

The Data Cable output is mono, low impedance, amplified (for loudspeaker)

The volume of the output can be controlled.

Music (if XM music is available) is soft-muted during warnings


2) 3.5 mm audio jack - stereo, line volume, higher impedance

Music (if XM music is available) is soft-muted during warnings.

The volume of the output can be controlled.


So, there is no difference between 396 and 496 in terms of available audio
(be it warnings or music) and there is no difference between the audio
available from the data cable (voice+ to loudspeaker) and the audio output
(3.5 mm jack). The only difference here is impedance, signal, and
mono/stereo. Volume is controllable in both cases and XM music is
soft-muted by the audio warnings. Volume controls everything coming out as
audio [Terrain, Obstru ctions , 500 ft AGL, Sink Rate, Traffic (if so
equipped), XM audio].

In aviation mode, Garmin does not encourage feeding the data+/- to the
panel because it is an amplified low impedance, mono output, intended for
speaker and the signal carries the same info as the 3.5 mm audio jack.

Finally, the audio can be fed to a switched/soft-muted input of the audio
panel or intercom (to be muted by any communication) or to a non-switched
input (to be always audible). Problem is in the latter case, if there is XM
audio, it will be always on during ATC communications.

How to feed the audio from the 396/496 is a matter of personal preference;
there are advantages and disadvantages with any approach; all taken into
consideration, my preference is to use the 3.5 mm line audio and to feed it
to a soft-muted input (e.g. intercom).

Rumen
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:20 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Protection - Again From: "Valovich, Paul" I'm using the Z13/8 as the basis of my -8A electrical design. Feeling pretty smug since no major problems encountered so far with the wiring. But as always, the devil is in the details. Just noticed that the 14 AWG wire going from the battery contactor to the battery bus has a little * next to it that refers to a note that sez: 6 inches or less. I'm using fuse blocks mounted in the right forward baggage compartment as the bus location. Wire length is closer to 18 inches than 6 inches - although I can rearrange fuse block locations by redrilling. Instead, how about using 12 AWG wire instead of 14 AWG? Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved (again) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries At 10:48 AM 11/9/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Bob, >You should receive the batteries Monday or Tuesday via USPS. >Kevin Boddicker >Tri Q 200 N7868B 78.6 hours >Luana, IA. Very good sir. I'll put them on the precision "battery killer" right away. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LR-3 Controller From: "Matt Prather" Wound field alternators are regulated by adjusting the amount of current going through the field windings - several Amps at high output. The LR3-C is designed for an alternator like this. Additionally, the LR3-C is a linear regulator meaning that it's field output is not switched on and off (in a pulse width modulated method), but instead continuously adjusted so as to provide the correct field current (and be electrically quiet while doing it). If the bus voltage sags a little, the field current is increased a little. Many/most internally regulated alternators don't take their field current from the sense line, but from a connection to the B-lead through the regulator circuit. If the LR3-C were wired "around" the internally regulated alternator, I predict the output would, at best, be unstable. As the bus voltage sagged, the LR3-C would increase the field voltage/current, the internal regulator on the alternator would think the bus voltage was rising quickly, and reduce the field current - at least with some bus dynamics. Additionally, I suspect the LR3-C would be operating at the very edge of its design curve - the current through the sense line on an internally regulated alternator may be exceedingly low, which is not what the LR3-C is likely designed for - it's leakage current through the field output might be higher than what the sense line will use - if it's driving a FET for instance. Also, I suspect that the overvoltage feature of the LR3-C might not work on an internally regulated alternator as some fail modes on these alternators don't respond to grounding the sense lead - the alternator continues be unregulated. The bottom line is the that the LR3-C is designed to enhance performance in a certain type of circuit, and this isn't it. If you need the features like independent over voltage protection you'll be better off adding a circuit just for that. I'd imagine that you could sell the LR3-C for nearly what you paid for it. Or, buy a compatible, externally regulated alternator. Regards, Matt- > > Forgive my ignorance, but why would the LR3-C be incompatible? Does it > not merely send 'switch-on, switch-off' commands to the alternator, and as > such as far as the alternator is concerned it is merely being told to turn > on or off? If this is the case (and I am guessing that there is more to > it) then am I not simply doubling up on alternator control, and with the > previously documented problems with internal regulation am insuring > against a reasonably likely future failure of the internal regulation > mechanism? > > Are the dimensions of the S701-1 the same as the stock Vans' master > contactor (ES 24115) (which I already have attached to my firewall)? > > Thank you for your patience with my questions > > Derek. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144823#144823 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennae connector At 09:19 AM 11/9/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >I'm buying a used transponder that does not have the atennae connectory on >the rear. This is the type that locks into the mounting tray with a clip >ring, and the coax exits out the side. Is there a proper name for this >connector? Where could I obtain just one? Sounds like the slip-fit coax connectors crafted back in the 60's to allow a radio to be easily removed from the panel for maintenance leaving the harnesses attached to the tray. See if this isn't the critter you're looking for: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/TED_9-30-10_A.jpg No doubt the supplier listed is but one of many. Do a net-search on "TED" and "9-30-10" and see what pops up. P.S. Here's one: http://tinyurl.com/ynswar Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennae connector At 09:19 AM 11/9/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >I'm buying a used transponder that does not have the atennae connectory on >the rear. This is the type that locks into the mounting tray with a clip >ring, and the coax exits out the side. Is there a proper name for this >connector? Where could I obtain just one? Sounds like the slip-fit coax connectors crafted back in the 60's to allow a radio to be easily removed from the panel for maintenance leaving the harnesses attached to the tray. See if this isn't the critter you're looking for: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/TED_9-30-10_A.jpg No doubt the supplier listed is but one of many. Do a net-search on "TED" and "9-30-10" and see what pops up. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. 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