---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/11/07: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Re: Magneto and VM1000 Dimming (Bruce Gray) 2. 06:11 AM - Matt's Profiteering (not) (Chuck Jensen) 3. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 (Bret Smith) 4. 07:06 AM - Re: Magneto and VM1000 Dimming (Matt Prather) 5. 07:52 AM - Re: Tyco and all its problems (dballin) 6. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Tyco and all its problems (Gilles Thesee) 7. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 (Walter Fellows) 8. 10:44 AM - Post Mortem - Matronics List Pummeled By Spam... (Matt Dralle) 9. 12:31 PM - Z14 Bat/Alt Master switch circuit questions (rtitsworth) 10. 01:31 PM - RV8 firewall ground block location (sam ray) 11. 03:32 PM - AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? (mikef) 12. 05:09 PM - Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? (Henador Titzoff) 13. 05:37 PM - Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? (mikef) 14. 05:44 PM - Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? (mikef) 15. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? (Henador Titzoff) 16. 06:53 PM - Re: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing (Todd Heffley) 17. 07:11 PM - Re: TRIM Disconnect Switch (Todd Heffley) 18. 07:13 PM - Satellite antenna ground planes required? (Deems Davis) 19. 08:26 PM - Re: Satellite antenna ground planes required? (paul wilson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:45 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Magneto and VM1000 Dimming Yea, I believe the VM1000 only dims from the front panel. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 2:48 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Magneto and VM1000 Dimming --> Functional checkout of my (Nuckolls inspired)electrical system has gone well so far with no smoked wiring or equipment. I bought an equivalent of an Odyssey 680 a couple years ago and trickle charged it occasionally hoping it would at least be good enough to do electrical checkout, first engine start and maybe a few times around the pattern. But it appears that is not the case. Voltmeter says there is 12.5 volts at the terminals but it can't produce enough amps to fire the battery contactor or even make some sparks when shorted, pretty pathetic. I substituted a Panasonic 4.5 amp hour sealed lead acid battery that I bought second hand about 6 years ago. It's got enough oomph for the checkout but I'll need a new 680 for 1st engine start. I did a test on my magneto P-lead (one mag on left side, electronic on right side)with an ohm meter. Thinking that when the key switch is in the off position, the resistance across the p-lead should measure close to dead short and, it does. By the same logic, I thought that when the mag was ungrounded the resistance across the pleads (I used a shielded wire with the shield grounded at the magneto through the key switch as Bob recommends, no local grounding). But when I measured across the p-leads at the magneto the resistance only went from 0.2 ohms to 0.4 ohms when I turned the key. Not an appreciable increase in resistance but it was consistent (happens every time) and measurable. I thought maybe I had a faulty key switch but not so, I removed one p-lead from the mag and made the same measurement and the resistance with the key in that mag's position read infinite. I suspect that there is some thing about magnetos I don't know and that this is not a problem but would like to be sure. Anybody ever done this test? Did you get the same results? Also checked out the VM-1000 and it seems to work fine except for dimming. I used one of the B&C dimmers connected to the VM-1000 dimming input but I don't seem to get any dimming action (backlight works ok). Anyone else experience this? Have I missed something in the VM manual and it doesn't use an external dimming input? Any thoughts? Thanks. Dean RV-6A N197DM closer to 1st flight. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:37 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Matt's Profiteering (not) From: "Chuck Jensen" Robert, Well said...and quite diplomatically as well. I'm endlessly astounded by the "baby bird" syndrome suffered by pilots, builders and our industry as a whole. Pilots think nothing of indulging themselves with $4.00/gallon gas (if you can find it) to amuse themselves by flying around or to save the inconvenience of being scrutinized by security and delayed endlessly by the airlines, yet, when asked for a voluntary donation for something that we use and enjoy every day, are beside themselves at the temerity that a net-volunteer should want to recover some of their cost and, gawd forbid, might even have a nickel of profit left over. Their immediate response is a flair up of baby-bird syndrome....cheap, cheap, cheap. I put my donations where my mouth is--$30 for each of the six lists I use; and its a raging bargain at that. So yes, Gary, if you are uncomfortable accepting a free service, then I would think Yahoo is definitely a good landing spot for you so that you are not put upon once a year for a voluntary donation. geeezzz. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert McCallum Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:06 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 I know I shouldn't reply to issues like this, because my feelings and emotions on the matter and my way of wording replies sometimes gets me in trouble, but here goes anyway. Flame suit on. (If necessary) Gary; #1 Very kind of you to append the whole of today's digest messages to your reply. (see Matt's rules of conduct for use of these lists) #2 How considerate that you think Matt should fork out the mega $$$$$$ it costs to support/run/host these lists without any consideration from those who benefit from their existence. (You and me. Matt's not the one gaining here) #3 I, for one, appreciate the ease of use, and especially the freedom from clutter/adds that these lists provide. They are FAR easier to use and follow without all the annoying junk found on Yahoo. (your example alternate) #4 I'm not yet building (Falco F8L), but only presently lurking (with the occasional post) and gathering, what I consider to be, volumes of valuable knowledge. (and in my opinion some of the most progressive knowledge going. Between Bob Nuckolls, Stein Bruch, Eric Jones, and even sometimes gmcjetpilot, to name just a few of the knowledgeable souls on this list, how can you go wrong???) #5 The entertainment value alone is worth the token amount Matt requests of us each year. Heck he doesn't even specify how much, leaves it entirely up to you what you feel is fair. #6 When this list provides information or assistance to you which saves you time , $$, $time$, or damaged components, (more$$$$) maybe you should consider giving that money to Matt. #7 Maybe the cost of the electrical course you don't need to take because of subscribing to this list should be forwarded to Matt???? #8 Maybe the $$$ you save by not having to have someone else sort your electrical issues should be sent to Matt????? #9 Or maybe, just maybe, you should consider sending your token $10-$20-$30-$40-$?? like most others for one of the most valuable, convenient, informative lists going. Where else can you get Bob N's sage advice for so little??? Certainly not on Yahoo! Rant off. Matt, some of us do appreciate the format. Thank you so very much. The $$ is well worth it. Bob McC do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hall Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:30 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 I appreciate your efforts in trying to provide a service but Yahoo lists are free and if I have to support you then I'll opt out. Your choice, Warm regards, gary ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:45 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 Thank you Charlie, Isn't it amazing how different people determine value? Bret Smith RV-9A N16BL Blue Ridge, Ga www.FlightInnovations.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 --> Gary Hall wrote: > I appreciate your efforts in trying to provide a service but Yahoo > lists are free and if I have to support you then I'll opt out. > > Your choice, > > Warm regards, > > gary > Matt's lists cost you the sight of a couple of donation-request emails per year. Contribution is voluntary. On the other hand, it's pretty hard for me to think of dealing with the clunkiness of Yahoo as 'free'... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:49 AM PST US From: Matt Prather Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto and VM1000 Dimming I went through that too, Dean.. If you measure the resistance between the p-connection on the mag and the mag case, you are either measuring the resistance through the primary winding of the coil in the mag, or through the breaker points in the mag (depending on where mag/engine are positioned - making the points open or closed). In either case, it's a low resistance value. Normal behavior. Regards, Matt- DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > > Functional checkout of my (Nuckolls inspired)electrical system has gone well > so far with no smoked wiring or equipment. I bought an equivalent of an > Odyssey 680 a couple years ago and trickle charged it occasionally hoping it > would at least be good enough to do electrical checkout, first engine start > and maybe a few times around the pattern. But it appears that is not the > case. Voltmeter says there is 12.5 volts at the terminals but it can't > produce enough amps to fire the battery contactor or even make some sparks > when shorted, pretty pathetic. I substituted a Panasonic 4.5 amp hour sealed > lead acid battery that I bought second hand about 6 years ago. It's got > enough oomph for the checkout but I'll need a new 680 for 1st engine start. > > I did a test on my magneto P-lead (one mag on left side, electronic on right > side)with an ohm meter. Thinking that when the key switch is in the off > position, the resistance across the p-lead should measure close to dead > short and, it does. By the same logic, I thought that when the mag was > ungrounded the resistance across the pleads (I used a shielded wire with the > shield grounded at the magneto through the key switch as Bob recommends, no > local grounding). But when I measured across the p-leads at the magneto the > resistance only went from 0.2 ohms to 0.4 ohms when I turned the key. Not > an appreciable increase in resistance but it was consistent (happens every > time) and measurable. I thought maybe I had a faulty key switch but not so, > I removed one p-lead from the mag and made the same measurement and the > resistance with the key in that mag's position read infinite. I suspect > that there is some thing about magnetos I don't know and that this is not a > problem but would like to be sure. Anybody ever done this test? Did you get > the same results? > > Also checked out the VM-1000 and it seems to work fine except for dimming. > I used one of the B&C dimmers connected to the VM-1000 dimming input but I > don't seem to get any dimming action (backlight works ok). Anyone else > experience this? Have I missed something in the VM manual and it doesn't use > an external dimming input? Any thoughts? Thanks. > > Dean > RV-6A N197DM > closer to 1st flight. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:23 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tyco and all its problems From: "dballin" Another solution is Gigavac. Their GX11 is basically the same as the Tyco ev200, but less expensive. http://www.gigavac.com/products/relays/gigavac/index.htm I had a very good experience ordering from them. They evidently are a bunch of ex Tyco people, are very knowledgeable and friendly. Dan Ballin Legacy #286 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145073#145073 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:13 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tyco and all its problems dballin a crit : > Another solution is Gigavac. Their GX11 is basically the same as the Tyco ev200, but less expensive. > > http://www.gigavac.com/products/relays/gigavac/index.htm > Dan, It seems the GX11 hold current is about 700 mA, whereas the EV200 is 140 mA.... Or am I missing the obvious ? Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:19 AM PST US From: "Walter Fellows" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/09/07 you get what you pay for one way or another. if one's time is worth nothing then wasting time reading garbage can seem like good value. On Nov 10, 2007 9:49 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Gary Hall wrote: > > I appreciate your efforts in trying to provide a service but Yahoo lists > > are free and if I have to support you then I'll opt out. > > > > Your choice, > > > > Warm regards, > > > > gary > > > Matt's lists cost you the sight of a couple of donation-request emails > per year. Contribution is voluntary. > > On the other hand, it's pretty hard for me to think of dealing with the > clunkiness of Yahoo as 'free'... > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:55 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Post Mortem - Matronics List Pummeled By Spam... Dear Listers, Over a 3-day period, Thursday 11/8 though Saturday 11/10, the Matronics Lists were pummeled with over 450,000 spam emails causing posting delays and a few duplicate messages. Yeah, I really said nearly half a million spams! The good news is that I don't believe a single one of them actually made it to the Lists thanks to the aggressive List filtering code and the Barracuda spam filter. The bad news was that it caused quite a back log of email messages starting Friday and continuing until late Saturday when I noticed that delivery seemed a bit sluggish. By about 11pm on Saturday night, I had managed to get the backlog cleared out of the spam filter by temporarily adjusting some of the filtering. A check of the queues this morning, and everything looks like its working great and there are no incoming filtering delays and spam levels appear to be back to "normal". There were a number of people asking what was going on, so I thought that I'd send out a follow up post mortem on the event... November is the annual List Fund Raiser. Your contribution directly enables me to buy systems like the Barracuda spam filter that keep the List free of that garbage. Please make a contribution to support your Lists! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:22 PM PST US From: "rtitsworth" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z14 Bat/Alt Master switch circuit questions Bob, I'm building a Z-14 (dual bat, dual alt, split bus) with a 100amp primary alt, a 20amp aux alt (SD20), and identical Odyssey style, AGM batteries. Thus, I've biased my heavy/normal loads toward the primary side/bus (heated prop, heated seats, etc). I noted the z-14 drawing has s700-2-10 (three way) bat/alt master switches, which are functionally equivalent to traditional Cessna style split master switches. I understand this is a useful approach for preventing activation of an alternator without an associated battery on-line. However, as shown, it also means that taking a battery off-line dictates that the associated alternator is off-line. It seems that it would still be "ok" to leave an alternator on-line, with it's associated battery off-line, as long as the cross-tie and other battery were still on-line. However, this is not possible as shown in a std Z-14. I'm interested in knowing more regarding these potential scenarios and potential alternative approaches. 1) What typically happens when a battery fails that might cause someone to want it off-line? a. Shorts a cell, which causes it to drop approx 2 volts (???) i. Would I even know this while the alternator is working??? ii. What happens if it (and the associated alt) is left on-line??? b. Battery cable becomes disconnected, or contactor fails, etc - which causes the battery to become off-line i. What happens to the alternator that is now working without an associated battery? ii. How would I know to turn on the cross-tie (assuming it was "normally" off) to tie the lone alternator to the remaining good battery? c. Other Failure scenarios??? 2) It seems the wiring alternatives would include: a. Do nothing (leave z14 as-is) since the potential loss of a battery is low, and even so I could simply either 1) leave the failed battery and associated good alt on-line (with the cross connector) and/or 2) complete an expedited landing with only the aux power system. b. Include a pullable breaker (or fuse) in series with the battery contactor side of the s700-2-10 master switch to allow the alternator to be on-line with the battery off-line (by pulling that breaker/fuse) and leaving the switch in the both-on position. Of course this essentially overrides the inherent alternator only prevention and implies the user knows the cross-tie must therefore also be on. c. Create a more complex "logic-based" circuit with separate bat and alt switches that only energizes the alternator switches when a appropriate battery is also connected (either the associated battery or the other battery and the cross-tie) d. Create fully separate bat and alt switches and leave it up to the pilot to get it right (the simplest, but perhaps not the safest). e. Other??? Rick ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:42 PM PST US From: sam ray Subject: AeroElectric-List: RV8 firewall ground block location Where have you guys been mounting the firewall ground block on your RV8? Seems like there are two possible locations- one penetrating the baggage compartment, the other below the baggage compartment floor. One interferes with baggage, the other possibly with the rudder pedals. I'd appreciate any insight you all might have. Sam Ray __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? From: "mikef" Hi All, I am trying to find a double A (AA) battery replacement power supply that runs from a 12v socket. I cannot for the life of me remember what these are called, thus my Google searches have been fruitless. If somebody knows where to find such a thing please let me know. I have two Lightspeed headsets that each take a pair of AA batteries for the noise canceling function. I want to find some of these AA adapters and make it a more permanent installation. Thanks very much, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145215#145215 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:56 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? Hi Mike, Check out Thomas Distributing for most of your small battery and charger needs. I've been buying from these guys for years with no problems whatsoever. Go to Shop By Category and click on Chargers, then Chargers by Battery Size, then select one of the four categories for AA batteries. I'll endorse the Maha brand of chargers, since that's why I have and know. I've had the MH-C204F for ~8 years with no problems whatsoever. It's not listed anymore, but if you select AA-AAA Chargers, you'll see Mahas listed. If I had to buy a AA charger today, I would select the Maha MH-C204GT (AC Adaptor) or MH-C204GT-DC (AC and 12V DC Car Cord Adaptor). You, of course, need the latter for 12V usage. Also, check out Thomas Distributing's AA NiMH battery selection. I see that they now have 2850 mAH batteries. Mine are 8 year old GP 1800 and 2000 mAH batteries, and they do just fine on cross-country trips. http://www.thomasdistributing.com/ Henador Titzoff Mig-Weld Fulcrum ----- Original Message ---- From: mikef Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:28:47 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? Hi All, I am trying to find a double A (AA) battery replacement power supply that runs from a 12v socket. I cannot for the life of me remember what these are called, thus my Google searches have been fruitless. If somebody knows where to find such a thing please let me know. I have two Lightspeed headsets that each take a pair of AA batteries for the noise canceling function. I want to find some of these AA adapters and make it a more permanent installation. Thanks very much, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145215#145215 __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? From: "mikef" Henador, THanks for that tip on chargers. It is a good source, but not exactly what I am looking for. I want to replace the AA batteries with an adapter that slots into the spot that the two AA normally go. Then that is wired to a 12v socket plug. That way I never have to worry about charged batteries. Just plug in and go. I know this thing is out there, I've seen them. Now I just cannot seem to find them. And I remember there were models for a 9 volt replacement as well as AA. Thanks again, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145237#145237 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:25 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? From: "mikef" OK, finally found them. 'battery eliminator'. Kind of like Ahnolad, the Eliminator. http://www.qcavionix.com/battery_eliminators.php?cat 500 Thanks all. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145241#145241 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:34 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? Thank you, Mike, for turning us on to this remarkable jewel of electronics. I'm gonna look into it myself! :) Henador Titzoff Mig-Weld Fulcrum ----- Original Message ---- From: mikef Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:41:50 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AA battery replacer? What is this thingy called?? OK, finally found them. 'battery eliminator'. Kind of like Ahnolad, the Eliminator. http://www.qcavionix.com/battery_eliminators.php?cat 500 Thanks all. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:13 PM PST US From: Todd Heffley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing donald You might consider waiting before you drill another footprint in the bottom of the airplane. My experince is that a Lower bent whip, near the middle of the wing/fuselage is an ideal location. Is it possible that you are fighting a bad antenna/antenna ground, or (more likely) a bad coax/coax connector/Rack mount connector.... An interfence with the gear would seem reasonable for a whip mounted within an INCH of a gear leg. I am picturing your installation is a foot from each gear leg...???... Keep lookn', before you start drillin'. todd ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:51 PM PST US From: Todd Heffley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: TRIM Disconnect Switch Way off topic here.. Any time I hear the "patent" word in the midst of real innovators I cringe. PLEASE look at "Case Against Patents" on Don Lancaster's WWW.tinaja.com Then if you want to know how real innovators make money from ideas, read "Riskdown" on the same site. todd Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:50 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: AeroElectric-List: Satellite antenna ground planes required? I have 2 (two) satellite antennas mounted to the top of my RV-10 cabin. On is for a WAAS GPS sensor and the Other is for an XM weather receiver.The cabin top is entirely made of fiberglass/epoxy composite. I've looked in vain for information as to whether or not groundplanes are required for these antennas, and if so what size/dimension. I would dearly appreciate any guidance and direction the list or it's Sponsor might provide. Thanks Deems Davis # 406 'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:07 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Satellite antenna ground planes required? Both will work fine looking thru fiberglass Just figure out a mount under side. Best way to prove it is to do it. That was my method. Paul ============= At 07:11 PM 11/11/2007, you wrote: > >I have 2 (two) satellite antennas mounted to the top of my RV-10 >cabin. On is for a WAAS GPS sensor and the Other is for an XM >weather receiver.The cabin top is entirely made of fiberglass/epoxy >composite. I've looked in vain for information as to whether or not >groundplanes are required for these antennas, and if so what >size/dimension. I would dearly appreciate any guidance and direction >the list or it's Sponsor might provide. > >Thanks > >Deems Davis # 406 >'Its all done....Its just not put together' >http://deemsrv10.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.