Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:33 AM - Re: Wherefore loadmeters? (Jan de Jong)
2. 06:02 AM - Re: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker ()
3. 06:33 AM - Re: Radio interlock (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:20 AM - Re: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:39 AM - Re: Regulator Options for ALX8521 (Vernon Smith)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Radio Noise (jon@finleyweb.net)
7. 09:00 AM - Re: Regulator Options for ALX8521 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:53 AM - Another Z-19 in the making (front batt) ()
9. 10:14 AM - Voltmeter / Ampmeter (mosquito56)
10. 11:59 AM - Re: Regulator Options for ALX8521 (Vernon Smith)
11. 03:12 PM - Re: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker (Ken)
12. 04:52 PM - Re: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker (Tim Lewis)
13. 06:35 PM - Re: Voltmeter / Ampmeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 07:13 PM - Re: Radio interlock ()
15. 07:59 PM - Re: Voltmeter / Ampmeter (Peter Harris)
16. 10:23 PM - Re: Z13/8 over current protection (Jeff Page)
17. 10:24 PM - Re: Radio interlock (Jeff Page)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Wherefore loadmeters? |
> My airplane will not have one. One the other hand what my airplane does have
(sleeping
> in a large box full of stuff....) is a Xantrex XBM battery monitor. This
> puppy monitors the health of the battery and tells me how long the battery
> will power the airplane at the current load and lots more. MUCH better information.
>
>
> See: http://www.xantrex.com/support/web/id/1006/support1.asp
> and http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/96/p/1/pt/7/product.asp
>
The manufacturer:
http://www.tbs-electronics.nl/products_expert501_downloads.htm#table
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
Message 2
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Subject: | Pullable 60 Amp Breaker |
Great find but an ANL fuse will offer the same protection and keep you
or a curious passenger from ruining your alternator. Not to mention it
cost about 1/10 of that breaker. Why are you so interested in isolating
your alternator? When my alternator fails it doesn't run a-muck in the
engine compartment and burst into flames, it simply becomes another lawn
ornament.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Lewis
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:06 PM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com;
rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker
Over the years I've looked without success for a pullable 60 Amp
breaker. The other day I noticed one in a friend's Glastar (an early
two-weeks-to-taxi pathfinder). I crawled under the panel, jotted down
the part number, and found several sources on the net. The part number
is 413-K14-LN2, made by ETA. I bought one from Pacific Coast Avionics
(part number "ETA-60". They have a 75 Amp version, too.
Use with caution, of course. Pulling the breaker when the
alternator is putting out significant current can ruin the alternator (V
= L*di/dt, I suppose).
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 900 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Radio interlock |
At 10:02 PM 11/18/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob.. That jogged my memory. The real challenge would be to run
>multiple transceivers through a single antenna..
That CAN be done. It's most commonly accomplished with
carefully crafted filters that go in series with the antenna
feedlines for each radio. A good example of this technology
is a critter called a "duplexer".
Back in the days when I was working with amateur radio repeater
stations, it was useful have a single antenna for both
RECEIVING an exceedingly tiny incoming signal (0.5 microvolts)
on one frequency while simultaneously TRANSMITTING that same
information on a second frequency (typically 600 KHz removed from
receive) with a strength on the order of 50 volts or 10 million
times stronger!
I've built the device shown here several times:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/2mduplexer.html
The thing is built of pieces of 4" copper tubing. The
six cavities are distributed with three in the transmitter
antenna line, three in the receiver. They are crafted with
mirror image band-pass/band-reject response curves
shown here:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/pix/dupfig15.jpg
Note that each cavity set strongly rejects one
frequency while strongly passing another. With these
devices properly crafted and tuned to match the
frequencies of the transmitter and receiver, full
duplex operation of the two devices can be accomplished
on one antenna.
Obviously, this technology is useful ONLY for one
pair of frequencies. For example, I could craft a
duplexer to allow a pair of transceivers to use
a single antenna on 119.5 and 121.6 . . . but as
soon as I rotated set the frequencies to any other
combination, this finely tuned isolation between
the two transceivers would be lost. The other down
side of this technology is that the duplexer would use
up most of your baggage compartment!
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Pullable 60 Amp Breaker |
At 08:58 AM 11/19/2007 -0500, you wrote:
This thread has stirred a lot of concerns together which
I will attempt to put into perspective.
First, know that designers of upper-end production aircraft
have made a effort to get high-current, noise-carrying
conductors off the panel. The alternator is the strongest
noise source on the bus and it's b-lead is the strongest
emitter of magnetically coupled noise in the airplane. Hence,
a migration of b-lead protection out of the cockpit and onto
the firewall as seen here . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Firewall_Ckt_Protection.jpg
Second, I cringe when concerns for the actions of
"curious passengers" are raised as drivers for how a
cockpit is laid out or fitted . . . I've flown hundreds
of passengers and never have I had to admonish anyone
to "not touch that". There would be only ONE time
that I might have to educate someone on passenger cockpit
etiquette. The second incident would result in a dispatched
return to the field and a polite request that the individual
exit the aircraft.
Third, it has been suggested that a breaker might serve
as the last-ditch means by which a pilot can bring a runaway
alternator to heel . . . or at least disconnect it from the
system. This logic is flawed for several reasons: (1) breakers
are designed to disconnect hard downstream faults in a system
where the voltage are on the order of 32 volts or less. (2)
A runaway alternator is capable of raising the b-lead terminal
to hundreds of volts in milliseconds where it is NOT reasonable
to expect the breaker to also serve as a SWITCH for reliable
disconnect of the offending alternator. Any attempt to use
a breaker (particularly a miniature one with plastic housing!)
for this purpose is to flirt with probability of cockpit fire
and much smoke.
Finally, know that a 60A breaker on a 60A alternator is
DESIGNED to nuisance trip. The b-lead protection on an alternator
should stay closed at current levels perhaps 20% higher than
the nameplate rating of the alternator. The GA spam-can community
really blew it when 60A b-lead breakers were installed in 100,000+
aircraft with 60A alternators.
The ideas cited above are drivers for my personal design
goals that strive to (1) move b-leads out of the cockpit and
(2) supply any-time, any-conditions, positive ON-OFF control
of all energy sources to the aircraft crew.
Of course, we're free to establish and satisfy any alternative
design goals. Incorporation of the 60A, panel mounted,
pullable breaker to satisfy the goals cited is, in my humble
opinion, ignoring a lot of experience and thoughtful reasoning
suggesting that panel a mounted, b-lead breaker is not the
best-we-know-how-to-do.
Bob . . .
>Great find but an ANL fuse will offer the same protection and keep you or
>a curious passenger from ruining your alternator. Not to mention it cost
>about 1/10 of that breaker. Why are you so interested in isolating your
>alternator? When my alternator fails it doesn't run a-muck in the engine
>compartment and burst into flames, it simply becomes another lawn ornament.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Lewis
>Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:06 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com;
>rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker
>
>Over the years I've looked without success for a pullable 60 Amp
>breaker. The other day I noticed one in a friend's Glastar (an early
>two-weeks-to-taxi pathfinder). I crawled under the panel, jotted down the
>part number, and found several sources on the net. The part number is
>413-K14-LN2, made by ETA. I bought one from Pacific Coast Avionics (part
>number "ETA-60". They have a 75 Amp version, too.
>
>Use with caution, of course. Pulling the breaker when the alternator is
>putting out significant current can ruin the alternator (V = L*di/dt, I
>suppose).
>
>moz-screenshot5.jpg
>
>
>--
>
>Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
>
>RV-6A N47TD -- 900 hrs
>
>RV-10 #40059 under construction
Message 5
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Subject: | Regulator Options for ALX8521 |
Because of the 70 amp rating I didn't realize my options were so wide open.
Thanks for the replies,
Vern Smith
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:24:16 -0600> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.co
m> From: nuckolls.bob@cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator Op
ckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>> > At 11:48 AM 11/18/2007 -0700, you wr
ote:> > >I have a Electro-Systems (Prestolite) ALX8521 70 amp 12 volt alter
nator I > >would like to use on my RV project. What are the options for a r
egulator? > >VR166 (generic Ford) with OV protection, B&C, or what? I've go
ne through > >the AeroElectric book and the archives but haven't found a de
finitive > >answer, maybe the answer is too obvious. Any insights will be h
elpful.> >Thanks,> > Your options are varied and numerous. You can> go the
generic route and assemble regulator, ov> protection and lv warning from in
dividual components> or go the Cadillac rout with the B&C LR3 series> contr
ollers with everything in one package. There> is no one choice inherently s
uperior to others> beyond avoiding products with demonstrably poor> service
lives (i.e. poor return on investment).> > Bob . . .> > ------------------
----------------------)> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )> ( a thing
wrong, gives it a superficial )> ( appearance of being right . . . )> ( )>
====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init
iative now.
Message 6
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|
=0AIf the 912 uses resistor spark plug wires, you might try replacing them.
Resistor wires are known to degrade over time.=0A=0A =0A=0AI know nothing
about the 912 so please disregard my comments if not applicable...=0A=0A
=0A=0AJon=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Robert
L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>=0ASent: Sunday, November 18, 2007
11:30pm=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-L
uckolls, III" =0A=0A=0A=0AAt 10:47 AM 11/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:=0A=0AI h
ave a problem of reported background noise and a weak transmission when =0A
I ask for a radio check which just started about 3 weeks ago. Prior to that
=0Achecks were loud and clear.=0A=0AMy engine is a Rotax 912ULS and I am s
ure it's engine noise that I am getting.=0A=0AMy reception is fine on all c
hannels I have tried. When I transmit, the red =0Alight on the Microair 760
Radio sort of blinks in time to a beep - beep in =0Athe headset. As I incr
ease RPM on the 912 the beeps increase until they are =0Aalmost a solid ton
e at around 5000 RPM.=0A=0AI am stumped so any suggestions to solve this yo
u have are welcomed.=0A=0AYou need to investigate quality of your=0Apower o
n the electrical system. With a=0Agood battery in place and a properly=0Afu
nctioning alternator/regulator-rectifier,=0Athere should be no way for the
engine's=0Arpm to reflect upon your transmitter's=0Aoperation.=0A=0ACheck y
our alternator's output voltage under=0Afull and light loads . . . make sur
e it's=0Astable. Put a known good "test" battery in=0Aparallel with the shi
p's battery, or temporarily=0Areplace the ships battery to see if it makes
=0Aa difference.=0A=0ABob . . .=0A----------------------------------------)
=0A( . . . a long habit of not thinking )=0A( a thing wrong, gives it a sup
erficial )=0A( appearance of being right . . . )=0A( )=0A( -Thomas Paine 17
==========0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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Subject: | Regulator Options for ALX8521 |
At 08:38 AM 11/19/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>Because of the 70 amp rating I didn't realize my options were so wide open.
>Thanks for the replies,
>
>Vern Smith
Unlike generators . . . the regulator is NOT affected
by the size of the alternator. I've installed the LR3
series regulators on alternators from 35 to 105 amps
with good results.
A generator's regulator MUST be aware of the generator's
loads for the purpose of adjusting output to LIMIT the
output current and prevent burned wires, commutator
and brushes. Before the advent of solid state
rectifiers, a generator's regulator needed three
separate "relay" looking devices for the purpose
of controlling voltage, limiting current and electrical
disconnection of a generator that is turning too slow
or stopped. An exemplar regulator looked like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/GenReg_2A.jpg
Alternators are inherently current limited so
don't need attention from the regulator for
protection. They are inherently incapable of
reverse current flow through the rectifiers
that converts the alternator's AC to system DC
current. This leaves only the voltage regulator
function which was handled with a simpler device
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/ALTREG2.jpg
where the right-hand critter is the votlage
regulator. The one on the left is a field
control relay which is surplus to management
of the alternator in most systems. A solid
state version without a field control relay
looks more like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_SS_Reg_open.jpg
and will work just fine with about any externally
regulated alternator.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Another Z-19 in the making (front batt) |
Question:
Z-19 shows a 6 AWG running from the starter contactor to the
feed bolt on the main power dist. bus. What type of connector will I use
to adapt the 6 AWG cable to the 10-32 bolt on the bus? My main bus is a
B & C standard 12 slot fuse holder (see attached).
Some add'l information if you happen to be working with a
Lancair. I will be using the electrically dependent 2.5 Subaru STI.
Pictures - What you are looking at is the avionics shelf for a
Legacy. A simple but very strong piece of prepreg fiberglass with a Z-19
trap door added for maintenance access. The holes on the lower left are
for accessing the back of B & C fast-on switches on the lower left
front face of the panel. The larger holes in the rear are for all of the
antennas, fuel lines, brake lines and whatever else runs up from the
center of the cabin.
All busses are attached with 10-32 bolts, washers and nylock
nuts. Bolts are torqued and trimmed to within two exposed threads
(Lancair standard). I don't think they're coming off. If I'm really
worried about bolts coming loose, I normally epoxy the exposed threads.
Epoxy is the best and cheapest loctite available. Of course you need to
cut things off if you want to change them, so don't use it on off-on
type bolts.
Message 9
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Subject: | Voltmeter / Ampmeter |
I was looking thru the infamous aeroelectric download and saw a real nice little
ampmeter/voltmeter. It looked like a small meter. Does anyone know what it is
and where I can find one?
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance
in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147141#147141
Message 10
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Subject: | Regulator Options for ALX8521 |
Bob,
Thanks for the explanation and expanding my knowledge base.
Vern
do not archive
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:56:01 -0600> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.co
m> From: nuckolls.bob@cox.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Regulator Op
ckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>> > At 08:38 AM 11/19/2007 -0700, you wr
ote:> > >Because of the 70 amp rating I didn't realize my options were so w
ide open.> >Thanks for the replies,> >> >Vern Smith> > Unlike generators .
. . the regulator is NOT affected> by the size of the alternator. I've inst
alled the LR3> series regulators on alternators from 35 to 105 amps> with g
ood results.>
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE
!
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_1120
07
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker |
In addition to other concerns, if they are push on connections, I'd
would not expect them to stand up to 60+ amps very long. Can you even
get push on connectors for awg 6 wire?
Ken
Tim Lewis wrote:
> Over the years I've looked without success for a pullable 60 Amp
> breaker. The other day I noticed one in a friend's Glastar (an early
> two-weeks-to-taxi pathfinder). I crawled under the panel, jotted down
> the part number, and found several sources on the net. The part
> number is 413-K14-LN2, made by ETA. I bought one from Pacific Coast
> Avionics (part number "ETA-60". They have a 75 Amp version, too.
>
> Use with caution, of course. Pulling the breaker when the alternator
> is putting out significant current can ruin the alternator (V =
> L*di/dt, I suppose).
>
>--
>Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
>RV-6A N47TD -- 900 hrs
>RV-10 #40059 under construction
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Pullable 60 Amp Breaker |
The breaker uses a 3/8" screw (huge flat head) on both lugs.
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 975 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Ken wrote:
>
> In addition to other concerns, if they are push on connections, I'd
> would not expect them to stand up to 60+ amps very long. Can you even
> get push on connectors for awg 6 wire?
> Ken
>
> Tim Lewis wrote:
>
>> Over the years I've looked without success for a pullable 60 Amp
>> breaker. The other day I noticed one in a friend's Glastar (an early
>> two-weeks-to-taxi pathfinder). I crawled under the panel, jotted
>> down the part number, and found several sources on the net. The part
>> number is 413-K14-LN2, made by ETA. I bought one from Pacific Coast
>> Avionics (part number "ETA-60". They have a 75 Amp version, too.
>>
>> Use with caution, of course. Pulling the breaker when the alternator
>> is putting out significant current can ruin the alternator (V =
>> L*di/dt, I suppose).
>>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Voltmeter / Ampmeter |
At 10:13 AM 11/19/2007 -0800, you wrote:
><mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
>
>I was looking thru the infamous aeroelectric download and saw a real nice
>little ampmeter/voltmeter. It looked like a small meter. Does anyone know
>what it is and where I can find one?
>Don
I have one left, but I'd rather not sell it to you.
The instrument shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/loadvolt.jpg
was a custom device crafted for the AeroElectric Connection
to support a product we sold for about a year. Unfortunately,
the supplier of the instrument was unwilling to support
warranty on their product and I was experiencing about 10%
failure rates. I had originally committed to purchase 100
instruments to go with this product:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9021/9021-704F.pdf
Unfortunately, we had a falling out over quality and
we never sold more than the first batch of 25.
We got back into the analog instrument market with
availability of a high quality instrument that
became the core for this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007-120-1_Loadmeter.jpg
I've flirted with the idea of adding an expanded scale
voltmeter as companion to the loadmeter. Did a prototype
a couple of years ago:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Expanded_Scale_VM_Proto.jpg
I even tried duplicating the functionality of the earlier volt-
loadmeter by squeezing both voltmeter and loadmeter scales onto
the same scale plate . . . it gets pretty tiny and not easy
to read. It is a nice instrument. 1.75" square with pivot and
jewel movement. For the moment, the only product I'm prepared to
offer is the loadmeter.
Bob . . .
>--------
>Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
> Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
> I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals
> for assistance in this thing we call life.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147141#147141
>
>
>--
>11/18/2007 5:15 PM
>
>
>incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 14
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|
Subject: | Re: Radio interlock |
>From: Jeff Page <jpx@qenesis.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio interlock
>
>I had interesting plans to install my com antennas on each wing to
>keep them farther apart. The idea was that two pilots could each use
>one of the radios simultaneously - say to talk with ATC and FSS (as
>opposed to merely monitoring the second channel).
Do you really need it? I fly two crew planes and we rarely if ever are chatting
on two radios at the some time, even though we have 4 radios.
I think one antenna on top of the plane and bottom would be a better separation
than wing tips. G
---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
Message 15
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Subject: | Voltmeter / Ampmeter |
Don,
I have a matching pair, volt/ampmeter and a dual fuel indicator which reads
header and main.
I will be able to get the details tomorrow.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mosquito56
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2007 4:13 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltmeter / Ampmeter
<mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
I was looking thru the infamous aeroelectric download and saw a real nice
little ampmeter/voltmeter. It looked like a small meter. Does anyone know
what it is and where I can find one?
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for
assistance in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147141#147141
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Re: Z13/8 over current protection |
> >Perhaps the fuselink shown between the endurance bus and the alternate
> >feed switch might provide more encompassing protection located between
> >the main power bus and the diode ?
>
> ?? the purpose of this link is to protect the wire
> between the battery bus and the switch. Moving it
> someplace else would not help that wire . . .
To me, it would seem that the wire between the Battery Bus and E-Bus
Alternate Feed switch is protected by the 7A fuse from the Battery Bus ?
If a short to ground occurred in that wire, and the 7A Battery Bus
fuse blows, then the source of power becomes the Main Power
Distribution Bus if the E-Bus Alternate Switch is closed. The
fuselink as shown blows.
If the fuselink is moved to between the Diode and the Main Power
Distribution Bus, the fuselink would still blow, but would also
protect the wires connecting the diode - those have no protection at
all as shown ?
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Radio interlock |
Thanks for the numerous replies and comments to my question concerning
transmitting simultaneously with two radios.
Unanimously everyone said it can be made to work, with the usual
caveats of mounting the antennas with sufficient spacing, etc.
I was also pointed to commercial audio panels that offer this configuration.
So I am back to planning this and will report back in a couple of
years when my airplane is flying to indicate how it all worked out.
Meanwhile, there is a particular avionics tech's advice I will be
ignoring from here on !
Thanks !
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
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