Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:02 AM - [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:35 AM - Compass Requirements for FAA ()
2. 05:59 AM - Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection ()
3. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA (Mike)
4. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Mike)
5. 06:11 AM - Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection ()
6. 06:20 AM - Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection ()
7. 07:52 AM - Operating Limitations (Compass) (The Kuffels)
8. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Randy)
10. 08:20 AM - sweat soldering fast-on tabs (sam ray)
11. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Bruce Gray)
12. 08:32 AM - Re: Operating Limitations (Compass) (Dj Merrill)
13. 09:16 AM - Re: Compass Requirements for FAA ()
14. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Randy)
15. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Ernest Christley)
16. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Randy)
17. 12:04 PM - Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (BuckWynd)
18. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Ernest Christley)
19. 02:02 PM - Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Eric Newton)
21. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Mike)
22. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (BobsV35B@aol.com)
23. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Dale Ensing)
24. 06:42 PM - Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (BuckWynd)
25. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Mike)
26. 07:04 PM - Re: Batteries.com AA Alkaline Cell Tests (Ron Quillin)
27. 08:50 PM - Re: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 11:03 PM - Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (AirMike)
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Subject: | [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt |
Dralle?
Dear Listers,
Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in
the information technology industry for nearly 25 years primarily in computer
networking design and implementation. I have also done extensive work in web
development and CGI design during that time, along with some embedded system
development as well.
I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders
from around the world. Since that time, I have added 63 other kinds of aircraft
related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such
as the Forums, Wiki, Archives and Search Engine just to name a few.
For flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here
locally. Other List-related systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network
infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter,
a local T1 Internet router, and a commercial-grade business T1 Internet
connection with full static addressing.
The computer servers found here include a quad-processor Xeon Linux server for
List web services, a dual-processor Xeon Linux system dedicated to the email processing
List functions, and another P4 Linux system serving as a remote storage
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assure the Lists are available even during a local power outage! Speaking
of power, imagine how much electricity it takes to run all of these systems. One
month last Summer, I had a staggering $1368 bill for electricity alone!
I recently upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new power
feeds and dedicated air conditioning for the room that serves as the Computer
Center for the Matronics Email Lists. Last year I added another rack to
house the MONSTER quad-processor web system that didn't quite fit into the first
rack! Here's a composite photo of the List Computer Center before the addition
of the second rack:
http://www.matronics.com/MattDralle-ListComputerCenter.jpg
As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to
providing an always-on, 24x7x365 experience for each and every Lister.
But building and running this system isn't cheap. As I've stated before, I don't
support any of these systems with commercial advertising on the Lists. It is
supported 100% through List member Contributions! That means you... and you...
and YOU!
To that end, I hold a List Fund Raiser each November and ask that members make
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Won't you please take a moment to make a Contribution to support these Lists!
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Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
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(Please include your email address on the check!)
There are some great gifts available with qualifying Contribution levels too!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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Subject: | Compass Requirements for FAA |
4/27/2007
Hello George, You wrote:
1) "See the list below. Not sure if the pagination will display properly."
Thank you for giving my table more exposure. If anyone would like a copy of
this table in Microsoft Word, properly paginated, just email me and I will
send you one as an attachment to a return email.
2) "There is a need to rewrite the FAR's."
Here is an invitation to do so.
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/pdf/E7-22346.pdf
'OC' (Owen C. Baker) Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
--------------------------------------------------
Time: 09:12:19 AM PST US
From: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
>From: The Kuffels kuffel@cyberport.net
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
Tom I hesitate to discuss on AeroElectic as well but the reason is below. If
you don't believe me call EAA legal. (see the table below) I agree good
practice
and what you can get away with are not the same. It comes down to FAA Order
8130.2F, which omits Day VFR. However ELT and transponder may still be
needed.
According to the EAA you can fly with out ANY instruments in an experimental
DAY VFR, ANY!. See the list below. Not sure if the pagination will display
properly.
>Inspection
------------ BIG SKIP ---------------------------
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Subject: | Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
11/27/2007
Hello Tom, You wrote: "The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required
for type of
flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205." No exceptions for me."
Good advice. Here is what FAA Order 8130.2F, up to date with Change 3 dated
4/18/2007 incorporated, says should be written into your aircraft's
Operating Limitations:
"153. b. (8) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless
appropriately equipped for night
and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be
operated under VFR, day only."
You can read this on the FAA's own web site here:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/1ba6ee60e8779bd7862572c90063c0ac/$FILE/Order%208130.2f%20incorp%20with%20chg%203.pdf
It would appear that your FAA Inspector or DAR did not follow the FAA order
when he wrote your aircraft's Operating Limitations.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
--------------------------------------------------------
Time: 03:32:22 PM PST US
From: The Kuffels <kuffel@cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
Dj and others say:
<< experimental aircraft flying day VFR do not have to comply
with 91.205. Your Operating Limitations on your
experimental aircraft generally say something like "After
completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately
equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with
91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only". >>
My operating limitations say:
"The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required for type of
flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205." No exceptions for me.
The moral here is better check your own specific operating
limitations before thinking a generalized table is valid for you.
But remember, the question was what is legal not reasonable. My
planes always have a compass even if it's not "required".
Tom Kuffel
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA |
The new FAR=92s should read like this: For all certified experimental
aircraft fly at your own risk! And enjoy!
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
>From: The Kuffels HYPERLINK
"mailto:kuffel@cyberport.net"kuffel@cyberport.net
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
>Inspection
>
>I hesitate to get involved in a "discussion" with George
>(gmcjetpilot). He is correct about type certified aircraft
>needing a "nonstabilized magnetic compass" but homebuilts only
>needing a "Magnetic Direction Indicator" But his statement "you
>can fly without a compass at all in an experimental for VFR day.
>However for VFR night/IFR you do need a compass" is in error.
Tom I hesitate to discuss on AeroElectic as well but the reason is
below. If you don't believe me call EAA legal. (see the table below) I
agree good practice and what you can get away with are not the same. It
comes down to FAA Order 8130.2F, which omits Day VFR. However ELT and
transponder may still be needed. According to the EAA you can fly with
out ANY instruments in an experimental DAY VFR, ANY!. See the list
below. Not sure if the pagination will display properly.
I think your logic is GOOD but the FAR's are legal documents don't
always make sense, aka legal loop-holes. The FAA must follow the law.
However they have these "positions" that get inertia and become de facto
law. I am talking legal not practical or de facto positions.
Fact is the FAR's are struggling to keep up with modern EFIS GA planes.
You can lean and recive your pvt, inst ratings 100% in a Garmin 1000
airplane and its legal to fly IFR the day after your check ride in a
1978 steam gauge Cessna, or vise a verse. There is a need to rewrite the
FAR's.
MINIMUM INSTRUMENT AND EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS
FOR POWERED AMATEUR BUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT
Introduction: The table below is intended to give the builder of amateur
built experimental aircraft a ready reference for the instrument and
equipment requirements for his aircraft. The builder should note that
some items required by the FAR=92s are described in the FAR=92s as
needing
to be approved, but since there are no certification standards
established for amateur built experimental aircraft no formal individual
item approval, such as meeting a TSO (Technical Standard Order) or FAR
Part 23, is required. However certain items must interface properly with
ATC (Air Traffic Control), other aircraft, or other entities external to
the aircraft. Transponders, communication radios, exterior lighting and
ELT=92s (Emergency Locator Transmitters) are examples of such equipment.
Therefore, the builder can expect that the initial airworthiness
inspection of his aircraft will require evidence that this type of
equipment in the aircraft is acceptable to the FAA.
The Special Airworthiness Certificate issued for each amateur built
experimental aircraft includes specific Operating Limitations. Per FAA
Order 8130.2F the Operating Limitations state: =93After completion of
Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or
instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be
operated under VFR, day only.=94 The FAR=92s, FAA Order 8130.2F, and
current FAA policy have been used in constructing the below amateur
built experimental aircraft configuration requirements table.
THIS TABLE DOES NOT PROVIDE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BEST PRACTICES.
INSTALLING ONLY THE MINIMUM REQUIRED ITEMS MAY NOT BE PRUDENT OR SAFE.
By Owen C. Baker with appreciation to Richard E. Koehler.
MINIMUM INSTRUMENT AND EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS
FOR POWERED AMATEUR BUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT
DAY NIGHT DAY OR
FAR &
ITEM DESCRIPTION (See Notes Below Table) VFR VFR
NIGHT IFR
1.
91.205 (b) (1) Airspeed Indicator NR R R
2.
91.205 (b) (2) Altimeter NR R R
3.
91.205 (b) (3) Magnetic Direction Indicator NR R
R
4.
91.205 (b) (4) Tachometer for Each Engine NR R
R
5.
91.205 (b) (5) Oil Pressure Gauge for Each Engine
Using a Pressure System NR R R
6.
91.205 (b) (6) Temperature Gauge for Each
Liquid Cooled Engine NR R R
7.
91.205 (b) (7) Oil Temperature Gauge for Each
Air Cooled Engine NR R R
8.
91.205 (b) (8) Manifold Pressure Gauge for
Each Altitude Engine NR R R
9. 91.205
(b) (9) Fuel Gauge Indicating Quantity of Fuel
In Each Tank NR R R
10. 91.205 (b) (10)
Landing Gear Position Indicator, If Retractable NR R
R
11.
91.205 (b) (11) Anti-Collision Light System -
(Small civil airplanes certified after 3/11/96) NR R
R
12. 91.205 (b)
(13) Approved Safety Belts With Metal to Metal
Buckles for Each Occupant (2 yrs or older) NR
R R
13. 91.205 (b) (14) Approved Shoulder Harness for Each Front
Seat - For
Small Civil Airplanes Manufactured After 7/18/78 NR R
R
14. 91.205 (b)
(15) ELT (If required by Sec. 91.207, i.e. >one seat
and >50 miles) AR AR AR
15. 91.205 (b) (16) Approved Shoulder Harness for Each Seat '
Airplanes With
9 or Less Seats Manufactured After 12/12/86 NR R
R
16. 91.205
(b) (17) Shoulder Harness for Each Seat For
Rotorcraft ' Manufactured After 9/16/92 NR R
R
17. 91.205
(c) (2) Approved Position (navigation) Lights NR R
R
18.
91.205 (c) (3) Anti-Collision Light System
(Systems installed after 8/11/71- see reference) NR R
R
19. 91.205 (c)
(5) Adequate Source of Electrical Energy for
Installed Equipment NR R R
20. 91.205
(c) (6) One Spare Set of Fuses or Three Fuses
of Each Kind
Required, Must be Accessible to Pilot In Flight NR R
R
21. 91.205 (d) (2)
Two-Way Radio Communication System and
Navigational
Equipment Appropriate to Ground Facilities Used NR NR
R
22.
91.205 (d) (3) Gyroscopic Rate of Turn Indicator
(Some Exceptions, See Reference) NR NR R
23.
91.205 (d) (4) Slip-Skid Indicator NR NR R
24.
91.205 (d) (5) Sensitive Altimeter Adjustable for
Barometric Pressure, (See FAR 91.411, Altimeter System
Inspection Required Every 24 Calendar Months) NR NR
R
25. 91.205 (d) (6)
Clock Displaying Hours, Minutes, and Seconds '
Sweep Second Pointer or Digital NR NR R
26.
91.205 (d) (7) Electrical Generator or Alternator
of Adequate Capacity NR NR R
27. 91.205 (d) (8) Gyroscopic Bank and Pitch Indicator
(Artificial Horizon) NR NR R
28.
91.205 (d) (9) Gyroscopic Direction Indicator
(Directional Gyro or Equivalent) NR NR R
29. 91.205 (e) DME Above FL 240
N/A N/A AR
30. 91.215, Transponder in Certain Airspace, (See FAR 91.413,
Inspection Required Every 24 Calendar Months) AR AR
AR
Notes:
(1) AR = As Required, NR =
Not
Required, N/A = Not Applicable, R = Required
(2) A fourth flight operation category, Day (only) Instruments, is not
included above.
ABEA Minimum Inst Requirements 7.doc 11/17/2005
_____
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you ">Try it now.
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10/2/2007 11:10 AM
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
As a pilot / mechanic / builder I have worked to certify more then a
dozen homebuilt and exhibition airplanes. This is the best advice I
have read on this site so far. Get to know your DAR or FAA rep before
they show up. It costs a lot more time and money to change inspectors
after they show up.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
In a message dated 11/25/2007 5:05:29 PM Central Standard Time,
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com writes:
Call the EAA legal department. They don't work in a vacuum, they work
with the FAA.
>>>
Debate this all you want- bottom line is that when the DAR is standing
in front of you, inspection done and paperwork sitting on the desk
awaiting a signature and he/she sez "I'm sorry, but you don't have
(blahblahblahblah) so I can't issue your certificate- but get into
compliance and make another appointment (and bring a check for another
$100 for my trouble) and I'll slip you the pink...
You folks know your airplanes inside & out- does it make any sense to
NOT get to know your DAR and what he/she expects to see on the appointed
day beforehand?
Avoid surprises- preflight your DAR...
Mark
_____
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the HYPERLINK
"http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1" \nhottest products and HYPERLINK
"http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002" \ntop money wasters of 2007.
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
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Subject: | Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
11/27/2007
Hello Matt, The answer to your question below is "sorta, yes".
My initial aircraft Operating Limitations were written without the aerobatic
permission paragraph. At my request the FAA Inspector went back to the
computer and rewrote them.
Then he put in a ridiculous restriction that the aircraft had to be tested
for aerobatics in some locally established aerobatic competition practice
boxes that were far too small for anything other than a competition
aerobatic aircraft to maneuver within.
Again at my request he eliminated that aerobatic box requirement and
expanded my test area so that I could do the testing well away from airways.
I also recently observed an FAA inspection of an RV-7 wherein the head
inspector was training some new inspectors. One of the new inspectors had
prepared the Operating Limitations and had forgotten to include one of the
required paragraphs and that was not discovered until the actual inspection.
They went back to the computer and rewrote the Operating Limitations.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
------------------------------------------------
Time: 07:26:31 PM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Has anyone tried to have the wording of their op-lims changed (or
customized) before they were issues (when it might arguably be easier to
accomplish)? Maybe even talk to the DAR before he comes out and ask him
how they are going to be worded..
Regards,
Matt-
Message 6
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Subject: | Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
11/27/2007
Hello Bruce, I would suggest that the contents of the Operating Limitations
are dictated by FAA Order 8130.2F. Available here:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
The FSDO, the FAA Inspectors, and the DAR's should be in compliance with
that order.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
---------------------------------------------
Time: 08:34:47 PM PST US
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
The contents of the OP Limits are dictated by the local FSDO, and except for
some minor points cannot be changed by the ABDAR without approval from the
FSDO.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
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Subject: | Operating Limitations (Compass) |
bakerocb wrote:
<< FAA Order 8130.2F, up to date with Change 3 dated 4/18/2007
incorporated, says should be written .. It would appear that your
FAA Inspector or DAR did not follow the FAA order when he wrote
your aircraft's Operating Limitations. >>
Mine were written in 1996, who knows what the standards were
then. It's nice the limitations for my new homebuilt should be
more liberal. Fact remains, once they are issued, that's what
you must abide with. It's sometimes possible to get the
limitations changed but since I always comply with 91.205 anyway
it's more trouble than it's worth.
Lesson remains, check your own operating limitations. Nothing
else supersedes them unless the FAA specifically says so.
Tom Kuffel
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
Amen!
The magnetic Gyro in my Dynon backed up with my GNS430 and trutrak autopilo
t was more than adequate for Mr FSDO...I.e no compass required...I just cal
led him up defore the day to confirm.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
In a message dated 11/25/2007 5:05:29 PM Central Standard Time, gmcjetpilot
@yahoo.com writes:
Call the EAA legal department. They don't work in a vacuum, they work with
the FAA.
>>>
Debate this all you want- bottom line is that when the DAR is standing in f
ront of you, inspection done and paperwork sitting on the desk awaiting a s
ignature and he/she sez "I'm sorry, but you don't have (blahblahblahblah) s
o I can't issue your certificate- but get into compliance and make another
appointment (and bring a check for another $100 for my trouble) and I'll sl
ip you the pink...
You folks know your airplanes inside & out- does it make any sense to NOT g
et to know your DAR and what he/she expects to see on the appointed day bef
orehand?
Avoid surprises- preflight your DAR...
Mark
________________________________
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products<http://money.a
ol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001> and top money
wasters<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID
=aoltop00030000000002> of 2007.
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up
more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With
all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building another
bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will
be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing it
in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to
the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is
relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By
some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be
wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick release
mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds as
though your method will work well for you.
But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will
protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may want
to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would
mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably be
of no consequence.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
>>
>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most
>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one
>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could
>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I
>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass
>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to
> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the
> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage
> compartment 8*)
>
> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like
> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg
>
> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down
> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball
> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so
> might as well make it an ornament.
>
>
> --
> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | sweat soldering fast-on tabs |
I'm with you guys on only making what is necessary-
these projects take way too long as it is! I'm
building an RV8, which doesn't have a lot of firewall
space avaialable outside the forward baggage area,
that is also close to the battery, and stays clear of
the rudder pedals. I came up with a clever way to use
Bob's grounding system, but it requires making a
special single row of fast-on tabs. I'll have 6
fast-on tab pairs, which will be plently since I can
rely on Bob's new Instrument Panel Ground using D-subs
to handle the bulk of the wires. One of my design
goals is not to use the baggage compartments for
wiring and electrical systems overflow so I can have
maximum baggage space. Looks like I'll be able to pull
it off and also have a good grounding system. Thank
you for your all your help!
Sam Ray
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't
have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG every
15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out the
windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would not
take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your
nose cowling.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
<brinker@suddenlinkmail.com>
I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up
more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With
all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building another
bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will
be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing it
in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to
the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is
relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By
some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be
wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick release
mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds as
though your method will work well for you.
But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will
protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may want
to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would
mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably be
of no consequence.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
>>
>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most
>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one
>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could
>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I
>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass
>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to
> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the
> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage
> compartment 8*)
>
> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like
> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg
>
> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down
> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball
> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so
> might as well make it an ornament.
>
>
> --
> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>
>
Message 12
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|
Subject: | Re: Operating Limitations (Compass) |
The Kuffels wrote:
>
> Mine were written in 1996, who knows what the standards were then.
> It's nice the limitations for my new homebuilt should be more
> liberal. Fact remains, once they are issued, that's what you must
> abide with. It's sometimes possible to get the limitations changed
> but since I always
Hi Tom,
You are in luck! It is very easy to get your Op Lims updated to the
latest incarnation (or at least it was for me). My Glasair Op Lims were
written in 1983, and all it took was a trip to the local FSDO and they
gave me an updated set. No inspection necessary, just some paperwork.
I called ahead of time, explained what I wanted to do, and setup an appt
to have it done. No hassles at all.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA |
Is your EFIS mag heading GOOD or NOT.
I don't like games like getting a Walmart car compass and than taking it out.
Put it in if you are worried or need to because THE MAN said so and you don't
want to argue.
I never could get a wet compass to work well in a RV with the roll cage and small
seperation to engine, engine mount and other wires. I even tried Degaussing
the steel roll bar. With a self powered EFIS & GPS do I really need a wet compass
for VFR day? Do you need to back up your MAGNETIC EFIS heading?
Truth is the FAA is struggling with GPS and EFIS in the FARS. The FAA has non-regulatory
"Guidance", Policy, AIM, NPRM, AC, Orders, TSOs and its hard to keep
track of. Many are "reglatory in nature". Great than make them FAR's. They
need to update the FAR's to deal with the glass cockpit in GA planes. G
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
>Inspection
>
>At 11:02 AM 11/26/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>
> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments
most
> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install
one
> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one
could
> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place.
I
> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the
compass
> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
>> Sounds good to me. Cuts way down on the
>> need for "A glass of Jack and an aspirin
>> sandwich."
---------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
I will not have a DG I will have an EFIS with magnemometer. I
don't think anyone would argue with you of the nessesity of a compass with a
DG. The thing is that the far's are rather sketchy. As can be seen by the
arguments this thread has caused. One could be ramp checked in different
local's and each FAA inspector may have his opinion on how to read the FAR
also. I do agree that the compass will not take up much viewing area when
dash mounted but why permanantly mount one when it will be used very little
if at all.
Basicly all I am driving at is that if in doubt a simple easy to
build quick release dash mount might be the way to go. There is no way of
changing a mind that has been made up but there are ways to compromise. Each
to his own. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Personnaly I think
this simple subject has been beaten to death. Put a fork in me and roll me
over I'm done.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
>
> I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't
> have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG
> every
> 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out
> the
> windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would
> not
> take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your
> nose cowling.
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
> <brinker@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up
> more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With
> all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building
> another
> bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will
> be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing
> it
>
> in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to
> the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is
> relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By
> some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be
> wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick
> release
>
> mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds
> as
>
> though your method will work well for you.
> But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
> dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will
> protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may
> want
>
> to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would
> mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably
> be
> of no consequence.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
>
>> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>>
>> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most
>>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one
>>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could
>>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I
>>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass
>>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
>>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
>>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
>> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to
>> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the
>> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage
>> compartment 8*)
>>
>> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like
>> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg
>>
>> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down
>> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball
>> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so
>> might as well make it an ornament.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
Randy wrote:
> But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of
> the dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since
> it will protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future
> device you may want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that
> also but figured I would mention. If you have plenty of left over
> panel space this would probably be of no consequence.
>
Good point, Randy. Everyone's situation is different.
The underside of my panel looks like this:
http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelUnderside.jpg
The front side looks like:
http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelComplete.jpg
I already have the GPS antennae slid into a pocket there. I found a
compass at Autozone for $9 last night. It actually has compensators to
adjust it. It's about 1.5" high and 2" square. Only about 1" will need
to protrude above the panel, and the rest could well fit between a
couple other instruments.
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
Ernest you are building a very interesting plane. I'll
bet you will have a hard time with a quick arrival or departure at the small
airports with the inquisitive airport bums. lol
Very nice job on the panel. If I need advise on building
with resin I know who to contact.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
> Randy wrote:
>> But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
>> dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will
>> protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may
>> want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I
>> would mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would
>> probably be of no consequence.
>>
> Good point, Randy. Everyone's situation is different.
>
> The underside of my panel looks like this:
> http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelUnderside.jpg
>
> The front side looks like:
> http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelComplete.jpg
>
> I already have the GPS antennae slid into a pocket there. I found a
> compass at Autozone for $9 last night. It actually has compensators to
> adjust it. It's about 1.5" high and 2" square. Only about 1" will need
> to protrude above the panel, and the rest could well fit between a couple
> other instruments.
>
>
> --
> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>
>
Message 17
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Subject: | Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions |
It's that time in my building process where I'm making the big decisions regarding
the electrical system. At this point I like the idea of a 20-amp aux alternator
in addition to the main alternator. I want to see if I've got my design
concepts straight here. Maybe someone can help.
1. What is the main benefit of a Z-13/20 over a Z-12 system? Is it that with a
Z-12, you must manually load-shed your system in the event of a main alternator
failure? Both designs have 20-amp aux alternators, both have one main battery,
and both have E-buses. The biggest difference I can see is that the Z-13/20
has an SPDT "E-Bus Alt Master" switch controlling an E-bus contactor, while the
Z-12 merely has a switch powering the E-bus from the main battery.
2. This one might help me answer the previous question for myself: On the Z-13/20
system, is the "E-bus Alt Master" switch intended to remain off until needed,
or does it stay on during normal ops, allowing the 20A alternator to pick up
the E-bus load after a failure of the main alternator?
3. Although my planned E-bus load is approximately 10A right now, I'd definitely
consider lowering it below 8A, and use a SD-8 PM alternator and the Z-13/8 design,
if the complexity and weight were big enough of an issue. While perusing
the two designs side-by-side, I could not help but notice that the 8A alternator
requires the use of a voltage regulator, a 20-50uF capacitor, an over-voltage
module, a contactor and the related connectors and wiring for these items.
The 20A alternator requires just an LR-3 controller, apparently. Is the weight
savings of the 8A alternator worth the tradeoff in less individual components
and wiring that is apparently required for a 20A one? I can't find the weights
of these items anywhere.
Thanks to the members of this list for a great learning resource!
--------
Buck Wyndham
RV-8 N18XL (working on fuselage & systems)
Northern Illinois
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148911#148911
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
Randy wrote:
> <brinker@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> Ernest you are building a very interesting plane.
> I'll bet you will have a hard time with a quick arrival or departure
> at the small airports with the inquisitive airport bums. lol
> Very nice job on the panel. If I need advise on
> building with resin I know who to contact.
>
Thank you, but be aware that I'm careful not to take to many closeups of
my resin work. 8*)
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions |
At 12:02 PM 11/27/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>It's that time in my building process where I'm making the big decisions
>regarding the electrical system. At this point I like the idea of a 20-amp
>aux alternator in addition to the main alternator. I want to see if I've
>got my design concepts straight here. Maybe someone can help.
>
>1. What is the main benefit of a Z-13/20 over a Z-12 system? Is it that
>with a Z-12, you must manually load-shed your system in the event of a
>main alternator failure? Both designs have 20-amp aux alternators, both
>have one main battery, and both have E-buses. The biggest difference I can
>see is that the Z-13/20 has an SPDT "E-Bus Alt Master" switch controlling
>an E-bus contactor, while the Z-12 merely has a switch powering the E-bus
>from the main battery.
First, why are you considering the SD20 in the first
place. How do you plan to use your airplane and what
equipment do you plan to install that drives a
10+ amps ebus loads?
>2. This one might help me answer the previous question for myself: On the
>Z-13/20 system, is the "E-bus Alt Master" switch intended to remain off
>until needed, or does it stay on during normal ops, allowing the 20A
>alternator to pick up the E-bus load after a failure of the main alternator?
>
>3. Although my planned E-bus load is approximately 10A right now, I'd
>definitely consider lowering it below 8A, and use a SD-8 PM alternator and
>the Z-13/8 design, if the complexity and weight were big enough of an
>issue. While perusing the two designs side-by-side, I could not help but
>notice that the 8A alternator requires the use of a voltage regulator, a
>20-50uF capacitor, an over-voltage module, a contactor and the related
>connectors and wiring for these items. The 20A alternator requires just an
>LR-3 controller, apparently. Is the weight savings of the 8A alternator
>worth the tradeoff in less individual components and wiring that is
>apparently required for a 20A one? I can't find the weights of these items
>anywhere.
I'm having trouble imagining any ENDURANCE-bus load
that makes addition of 6 pounds and ~$700 to build
costs an attractive notion.
Let's talk about that before we dissect architectures.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
My Dynon EFIS has a separate, remote magnetic compass that feeds it heading
info. My feeling is - No need for another magnetic compass when you already
have one.
Eric Newton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
>
> I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't
> have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG
> every
> 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out
> the
> windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would
> not
> take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your
> nose cowling.
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
> <brinker@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up
> more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With
> all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building
> another
> bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will
> be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing
> it
>
> in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to
> the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is
> relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By
> some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be
> wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick
> release
>
> mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds
> as
>
> though your method will work well for you.
> But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
> dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will
> protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may
> want
>
> to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would
> mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably
> be
> of no consequence.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
>
>> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>>
>> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most
>>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one
>>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could
>>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I
>>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass
>>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
>>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
>>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
>> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to
>> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the
>> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage
>> compartment 8*)
>>
>> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like
>> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg
>>
>> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down
>> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball
>> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so
>> might as well make it an ornament.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
What's a DG?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
<Bruce@glasair.org>
I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you
don't
have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG
every
15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out
the
windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would
not
take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by
your
nose cowling.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
<brinker@suddenlinkmail.com>
I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take
up
more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either.
With
all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building
another
bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation
will
be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about
storing it
in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach
to
the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is
relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach.
By
some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not
be
wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick
release
mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it
sounds as
though your method will work well for you.
But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it
will
protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may
want
to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I
would
mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably
be
of no consequence.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
>>
>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments
most
>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install
one
>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one
could
>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place.
I
>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the
compass
>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having
to
> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the
> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the
baggage
> compartment 8*)
>
> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like
> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg
>
> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess
down
> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball
> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so
> might as well make it an ornament.
>
>
> --
> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>
>
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
Good Evening mlas,
I don't know if you have your tongue in your cheek, but I am confident he
was referring to a Directional Gyroscope
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 11/27/2007 7:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,
mlas@cox.net writes:
What's a DG?
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
Directional gyro.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:23 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
>
> What's a DG?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
> Gray
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:25 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
> <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you
> don't
> have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG
> every
> 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out
> the
> windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would
> not
> take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by
> your
> nose cowling.
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
> <brinker@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take
> up
> more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either.
> With
> all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building
> another
> bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation
> will
> be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about
> storing it
>
> in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach
> to
> the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is
> relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach.
> By
> some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not
> be
> wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick
> release
>
> mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it
> sounds as
>
> though your method will work well for you.
> But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the
>
> dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it
> will
> protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may
> want
>
> to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I
> would
> mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably
> be
> of no consequence.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@nc.rr.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
> Inspection
>
>
>> <echristley@nc.rr.com>
>>
>> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments
> most
>>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install
> one
>>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one
> could
>>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place.
> I
>>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the
> compass
>>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse
>>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing".
>
>>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy.
>> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having
> to
>> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the
>> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the
> baggage
>> compartment 8*)
>>
>> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like
>> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg
>>
>> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess
> down
>> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball
>> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so
>> might as well make it an ornament.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 10/2/2007 11:10 AM
>
>
> 10/2/2007 11:10 AM
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions |
nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net wrote:
> First, why are you considering the SD20 in the first
> place. How do you plan to use your airplane and what
> equipment do you plan to install that drives a
> 10+ amps ebus loads?
> I'm having trouble imagining any ENDURANCE-bus load
> that makes addition of 6 pounds and ~$700 to build
> costs an attractive notion.
>
> Let's talk about that before we dissect architectures.
>
Hi Bob,
To answer your questions, I'm considering installing an SD20 because, frankly,
a). it's available and b). I'm comfortable with a bit of "overkill" when it comes
to electrical power generation. Cost is simply not an issue, and weight-saving,
while important to me, is secondary to building a robust electrical system.
(As an aside, I'm saving over 30 pounds from a "stock" RV-8 by using a lightweight
composite prop and lightweight aluminum landing gear. Other improvements
will save even more weight.)
My airplane will be used for a lot of day VFR, but also some fairly regular IFR
cross-country, and occassional night flying. It wil be highly-electrical dependent,
with dual GRT EFIS displays, a backup Dynon D-10A, a Garmin 430, a Garmin
SL-30, a Garmin 330 transponder, a PMA9000 audio panel, and a Trutrak Digiflight
II VSVG autopilot. Not all of these items are on the E-bus, of course,
but some are.
My concept of the E-bus (and I do NOT mind calling it an Essential Bus -- it does
not scare me or exude a negative connotation -- it's what every sophisticated
airplane I've flown in 28 years calls it) is to cover the loads of the aircraft's
important avionics and some carefully selected accessories while I comfortably
divert to a suitable airport where maintenance can be undertaken. I do
not necessarily want to continue to my planned destination -- that goes against
my personal ideas of safety. (That topic is a whole other thread which I do
not want to get into here...)
So there you have it -- I guess I'm attracted to a 20-amp alternator because it
exists; because installing one would allow me a margin of "comfortable operability"
without utilizing my main battery's capacity one iota while I'm diverting
to a suitable airport; and because cost is not part of the equation.
So what remains in the equation are weight, complexity (number of parts, wires
and connectors), and reliability.
If you need to have a complete list of my E-bus loads, I'll certainly post them
here in a day or so when I return home and consult my notebook...
Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate all input on this matter.
Buck
--------
Buck Wyndham
RV-8 N18XL (working on fuselage & systems)
Northern Illinois
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148988#148988
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
It was answer A. :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA
Inspection
Good Evening mlas,
I don't know if you have your tongue in your cheek, but I am confident
he was referring to a Directional Gyroscope
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 11/27/2007 7:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,
mlas@cox.net writes:
What's a DG?
_____
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the HYPERLINK
"http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1" \nhottest products and HYPERLINK
"http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002" \ntop money wasters of 2007.
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
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Subject: | Re: Batteries.com AA Alkaline Cell Tests |
At 07:26 11/24/2007, you wrote:
>Typically, these "low cost" cells can be had for
>20 to 25-cents per cell. The cost per watt-hour
>for all devices tested to date have been relatively
>attractive.
Another source to check out...
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/campaigns/campaigntemplate.asp?CampaignID=389&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=WEM1506C
or
http://tinyurl.com/24oj9b
For a selection from TigerDirect.
RonQ.
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions |
At 06:41 PM 11/27/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net wrote:
> > First, why are you considering the SD20 in the first
> > place. How do you plan to use your airplane and what
> > equipment do you plan to install that drives a
> > 10+ amps ebus loads?
>
>
> > I'm having trouble imagining any ENDURANCE-bus load
> > that makes addition of 6 pounds and ~$700 to build
> > costs an attractive notion.
> >
> > Let's talk about that before we dissect architectures.
> >
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>To answer your questions, I'm considering installing an SD20 because,
>frankly, a). it's available and b). I'm comfortable with a bit of
>"overkill" when it comes to electrical power generation. Cost is simply
>not an issue, and weight-saving, while important to me, is secondary to
>building a robust electrical system. (As an aside, I'm saving over 30
>pounds from a "stock" RV-8 by using a lightweight composite prop and
>lightweight aluminum landing gear. Other improvements will save even more
>weight.)
>
>My airplane will be used for a lot of day VFR, but also some fairly
>regular IFR cross-country, and occassional night flying. It wil be
>highly-electrical dependent, with dual GRT EFIS displays, a backup Dynon
>D-10A, a Garmin 430, a Garmin SL-30, a Garmin 330 transponder, a PMA9000
>audio panel, and a Trutrak Digiflight II VSVG autopilot. Not all of these
>items are on the E-bus, of course, but some are.
Which ones are and what are their en-route
current requirements?
>My concept of the E-bus (and I do NOT mind calling it an Essential Bus --
>it does not scare me or exude a negative connotation -- it's what every
>sophisticated airplane I've flown in 28 years calls it) is to cover the
>loads of the aircraft's important avionics and some carefully selected
>accessories while I comfortably divert to a suitable airport where
>maintenance can be undertaken. I do not necessarily want to continue to my
>planned destination -- that goes against my personal ideas of safety.
>(That topic is a whole other thread which I do not want to get into here...)
>
>So there you have it -- I guess I'm attracted to a 20-amp alternator
>because it exists; because installing one would allow me a margin of
>"comfortable operability" without utilizing my main battery's capacity one
>iota while I'm diverting to a suitable airport; and because cost is not
>part of the equation.
>
>So what remains in the equation are weight, complexity (number of parts,
>wires and connectors), and reliability.
>
>If you need to have a complete list of my E-bus loads, I'll certainly post
>them here in a day or so when I return home and consult my notebook...
Hmmmm . . . if you really want the SD-20, then
go with Z-12. Z-13/20 sucks and I'm taking it out
at the next revision. It wasn't a very good idea
in the first place. . . In fact, I think I'll
take it out of Appendix Z now.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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Subject: | Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection |
While I agree with a lot of what you say, I must say that I once has a total electrical
failure and my PAI vertical card compass sure came in handy to fly the
reciprocal backs to Carson City from the middle of the Nevada desert
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Q/B Kit - Doors/windows/fiberglass stuff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149018#149018
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