---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/27/07: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:02 AM - [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:35 AM - Compass Requirements for FAA () 2. 05:59 AM - Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection () 3. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA (Mike) 4. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Mike) 5. 06:11 AM - Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection () 6. 06:20 AM - Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection () 7. 07:52 AM - Operating Limitations (Compass) (The Kuffels) 8. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Randy) 10. 08:20 AM - sweat soldering fast-on tabs (sam ray) 11. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Bruce Gray) 12. 08:32 AM - Re: Operating Limitations (Compass) (Dj Merrill) 13. 09:16 AM - Re: Compass Requirements for FAA () 14. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Randy) 15. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Ernest Christley) 16. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Randy) 17. 12:04 PM - Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (BuckWynd) 18. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Ernest Christley) 19. 02:02 PM - Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Eric Newton) 21. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Mike) 22. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (BobsV35B@aol.com) 23. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Dale Ensing) 24. 06:42 PM - Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (BuckWynd) 25. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (Mike) 26. 07:04 PM - Re: Batteries.com AA Alkaline Cell Tests (Ron Quillin) 27. 08:50 PM - Re: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 11:03 PM - Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection (AirMike) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:58 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? Dear Listers, Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in the information technology industry for nearly 25 years primarily in computer networking design and implementation. I have also done extensive work in web development and CGI design during that time, along with some embedded system development as well. I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders from around the world. Since that time, I have added 63 other kinds of aircraft related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such as the Forums, Wiki, Archives and Search Engine just to name a few. For flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here locally. Other List-related systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter, a local T1 Internet router, and a commercial-grade business T1 Internet connection with full static addressing. The computer servers found here include a quad-processor Xeon Linux server for List web services, a dual-processor Xeon Linux system dedicated to the email processing List functions, and another P4 Linux system serving as a remote storage disk farm for the archives, databases, and for an on-line hard drive-based backup system with 3.2 Terra Bytes of storage! This entire system is protected by three large, commercial-grade uninterrupted power supply (UPS) systems that assure the Lists are available even during a local power outage! Speaking of power, imagine how much electricity it takes to run all of these systems. One month last Summer, I had a staggering $1368 bill for electricity alone! I recently upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new power feeds and dedicated air conditioning for the room that serves as the Computer Center for the Matronics Email Lists. Last year I added another rack to house the MONSTER quad-processor web system that didn't quite fit into the first rack! Here's a composite photo of the List Computer Center before the addition of the second rack: http://www.matronics.com/MattDralle-ListComputerCenter.jpg As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to providing an always-on, 24x7x365 experience for each and every Lister. But building and running this system isn't cheap. As I've stated before, I don't support any of these systems with commercial advertising on the Lists. It is supported 100% through List member Contributions! That means you... and you... and YOU! To that end, I hold a List Fund Raiser each November and ask that members make a small Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of this ever-expanding system. Its solely YOUR Contributions that keeps it running! Won't you please take a moment to make a Contribution to support these Lists! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 USA (Please include your email address on the check!) There are some great gifts available with qualifying Contribution levels too! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:12 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Compass Requirements for FAA 4/27/2007 Hello George, You wrote: 1) "See the list below. Not sure if the pagination will display properly." Thank you for giving my table more exposure. If anyone would like a copy of this table in Microsoft Word, properly paginated, just email me and I will send you one as an attachment to a return email. 2) "There is a need to rewrite the FAR's." Here is an invitation to do so. http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/pdf/E7-22346.pdf 'OC' (Owen C. Baker) Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." -------------------------------------------------- Time: 09:12:19 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA >From: The Kuffels kuffel@cyberport.net >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Tom I hesitate to discuss on AeroElectic as well but the reason is below. If you don't believe me call EAA legal. (see the table below) I agree good practice and what you can get away with are not the same. It comes down to FAA Order 8130.2F, which omits Day VFR. However ELT and transponder may still be needed. According to the EAA you can fly with out ANY instruments in an experimental DAY VFR, ANY!. See the list below. Not sure if the pagination will display properly. >Inspection ------------ BIG SKIP --------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:52 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection 11/27/2007 Hello Tom, You wrote: "The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required for type of flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205." No exceptions for me." Good advice. Here is what FAA Order 8130.2F, up to date with Change 3 dated 4/18/2007 incorporated, says should be written into your aircraft's Operating Limitations: "153. b. (8) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only." You can read this on the FAA's own web site here: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/1ba6ee60e8779bd7862572c90063c0ac/$FILE/Order%208130.2f%20incorp%20with%20chg%203.pdf It would appear that your FAA Inspector or DAR did not follow the FAA order when he wrote your aircraft's Operating Limitations. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." -------------------------------------------------------- Time: 03:32:22 PM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Dj and others say: << experimental aircraft flying day VFR do not have to comply with 91.205. Your Operating Limitations on your experimental aircraft generally say something like "After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only". >> My operating limitations say: "The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required for type of flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205." No exceptions for me. The moral here is better check your own specific operating limitations before thinking a generalized table is valid for you. But remember, the question was what is legal not reasonable. My planes always have a compass even if it's not "required". Tom Kuffel ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:51 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA The new FAR=92s should read like this: For all certified experimental aircraft fly at your own risk! And enjoy! Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA >From: The Kuffels HYPERLINK "mailto:kuffel@cyberport.net"kuffel@cyberport.net >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA >Inspection > >I hesitate to get involved in a "discussion" with George >(gmcjetpilot). He is correct about type certified aircraft >needing a "nonstabilized magnetic compass" but homebuilts only >needing a "Magnetic Direction Indicator" But his statement "you >can fly without a compass at all in an experimental for VFR day. >However for VFR night/IFR you do need a compass" is in error. Tom I hesitate to discuss on AeroElectic as well but the reason is below. If you don't believe me call EAA legal. (see the table below) I agree good practice and what you can get away with are not the same. It comes down to FAA Order 8130.2F, which omits Day VFR. However ELT and transponder may still be needed. According to the EAA you can fly with out ANY instruments in an experimental DAY VFR, ANY!. See the list below. Not sure if the pagination will display properly. I think your logic is GOOD but the FAR's are legal documents don't always make sense, aka legal loop-holes. The FAA must follow the law. However they have these "positions" that get inertia and become de facto law. I am talking legal not practical or de facto positions. Fact is the FAR's are struggling to keep up with modern EFIS GA planes. You can lean and recive your pvt, inst ratings 100% in a Garmin 1000 airplane and its legal to fly IFR the day after your check ride in a 1978 steam gauge Cessna, or vise a verse. There is a need to rewrite the FAR's. MINIMUM INSTRUMENT AND EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS FOR POWERED AMATEUR BUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT Introduction: The table below is intended to give the builder of amateur built experimental aircraft a ready reference for the instrument and equipment requirements for his aircraft. The builder should note that some items required by the FAR=92s are described in the FAR=92s as needing to be approved, but since there are no certification standards established for amateur built experimental aircraft no formal individual item approval, such as meeting a TSO (Technical Standard Order) or FAR Part 23, is required. However certain items must interface properly with ATC (Air Traffic Control), other aircraft, or other entities external to the aircraft. Transponders, communication radios, exterior lighting and ELT=92s (Emergency Locator Transmitters) are examples of such equipment. Therefore, the builder can expect that the initial airworthiness inspection of his aircraft will require evidence that this type of equipment in the aircraft is acceptable to the FAA. The Special Airworthiness Certificate issued for each amateur built experimental aircraft includes specific Operating Limitations. Per FAA Order 8130.2F the Operating Limitations state: =93After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.=94 The FAR=92s, FAA Order 8130.2F, and current FAA policy have been used in constructing the below amateur built experimental aircraft configuration requirements table. THIS TABLE DOES NOT PROVIDE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BEST PRACTICES. INSTALLING ONLY THE MINIMUM REQUIRED ITEMS MAY NOT BE PRUDENT OR SAFE. By Owen C. Baker with appreciation to Richard E. Koehler. MINIMUM INSTRUMENT AND EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS FOR POWERED AMATEUR BUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT DAY NIGHT DAY OR FAR & ITEM DESCRIPTION (See Notes Below Table) VFR VFR NIGHT IFR 1. 91.205 (b) (1) Airspeed Indicator NR R R 2. 91.205 (b) (2) Altimeter NR R R 3. 91.205 (b) (3) Magnetic Direction Indicator NR R R 4. 91.205 (b) (4) Tachometer for Each Engine NR R R 5. 91.205 (b) (5) Oil Pressure Gauge for Each Engine Using a Pressure System NR R R 6. 91.205 (b) (6) Temperature Gauge for Each Liquid Cooled Engine NR R R 7. 91.205 (b) (7) Oil Temperature Gauge for Each Air Cooled Engine NR R R 8. 91.205 (b) (8) Manifold Pressure Gauge for Each Altitude Engine NR R R 9. 91.205 (b) (9) Fuel Gauge Indicating Quantity of Fuel In Each Tank NR R R 10. 91.205 (b) (10) Landing Gear Position Indicator, If Retractable NR R R 11. 91.205 (b) (11) Anti-Collision Light System - (Small civil airplanes certified after 3/11/96) NR R R 12. 91.205 (b) (13) Approved Safety Belts With Metal to Metal Buckles for Each Occupant (2 yrs or older) NR R R 13. 91.205 (b) (14) Approved Shoulder Harness for Each Front Seat - For Small Civil Airplanes Manufactured After 7/18/78 NR R R 14. 91.205 (b) (15) ELT (If required by Sec. 91.207, i.e. >one seat and >50 miles) AR AR AR 15. 91.205 (b) (16) Approved Shoulder Harness for Each Seat ' Airplanes With 9 or Less Seats Manufactured After 12/12/86 NR R R 16. 91.205 (b) (17) Shoulder Harness for Each Seat For Rotorcraft ' Manufactured After 9/16/92 NR R R 17. 91.205 (c) (2) Approved Position (navigation) Lights NR R R 18. 91.205 (c) (3) Anti-Collision Light System (Systems installed after 8/11/71- see reference) NR R R 19. 91.205 (c) (5) Adequate Source of Electrical Energy for Installed Equipment NR R R 20. 91.205 (c) (6) One Spare Set of Fuses or Three Fuses of Each Kind Required, Must be Accessible to Pilot In Flight NR R R 21. 91.205 (d) (2) Two-Way Radio Communication System and Navigational Equipment Appropriate to Ground Facilities Used NR NR R 22. 91.205 (d) (3) Gyroscopic Rate of Turn Indicator (Some Exceptions, See Reference) NR NR R 23. 91.205 (d) (4) Slip-Skid Indicator NR NR R 24. 91.205 (d) (5) Sensitive Altimeter Adjustable for Barometric Pressure, (See FAR 91.411, Altimeter System Inspection Required Every 24 Calendar Months) NR NR R 25. 91.205 (d) (6) Clock Displaying Hours, Minutes, and Seconds ' Sweep Second Pointer or Digital NR NR R 26. 91.205 (d) (7) Electrical Generator or Alternator of Adequate Capacity NR NR R 27. 91.205 (d) (8) Gyroscopic Bank and Pitch Indicator (Artificial Horizon) NR NR R 28. 91.205 (d) (9) Gyroscopic Direction Indicator (Directional Gyro or Equivalent) NR NR R 29. 91.205 (e) DME Above FL 240 N/A N/A AR 30. 91.215, Transponder in Certain Airspace, (See FAR 91.413, Inspection Required Every 24 Calendar Months) AR AR AR Notes: (1) AR = As Required, NR = Not Required, N/A = Not Applicable, R = Required (2) A fourth flight operation category, Day (only) Instruments, is not included above. ABEA Minimum Inst Requirements 7.doc 11/17/2005 _____ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you ">Try it now. "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:20 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection As a pilot / mechanic / builder I have worked to certify more then a dozen homebuilt and exhibition airplanes. This is the best advice I have read on this site so far. Get to know your DAR or FAA rep before they show up. It costs a lot more time and money to change inspectors after they show up. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection In a message dated 11/25/2007 5:05:29 PM Central Standard Time, gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com writes: Call the EAA legal department. They don't work in a vacuum, they work with the FAA. >>> Debate this all you want- bottom line is that when the DAR is standing in front of you, inspection done and paperwork sitting on the desk awaiting a signature and he/she sez "I'm sorry, but you don't have (blahblahblahblah) so I can't issue your certificate- but get into compliance and make another appointment (and bring a check for another $100 for my trouble) and I'll slip you the pink... You folks know your airplanes inside & out- does it make any sense to NOT get to know your DAR and what he/she expects to see on the appointed day beforehand? Avoid surprises- preflight your DAR... Mark _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the HYPERLINK "http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000 1" \nhottest products and HYPERLINK "http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto p00030000000002" \ntop money wasters of 2007. "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:42 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection 11/27/2007 Hello Matt, The answer to your question below is "sorta, yes". My initial aircraft Operating Limitations were written without the aerobatic permission paragraph. At my request the FAA Inspector went back to the computer and rewrote them. Then he put in a ridiculous restriction that the aircraft had to be tested for aerobatics in some locally established aerobatic competition practice boxes that were far too small for anything other than a competition aerobatic aircraft to maneuver within. Again at my request he eliminated that aerobatic box requirement and expanded my test area so that I could do the testing well away from airways. I also recently observed an FAA inspection of an RV-7 wherein the head inspector was training some new inspectors. One of the new inspectors had prepared the Operating Limitations and had forgotten to include one of the required paragraphs and that was not discovered until the actual inspection. They went back to the computer and rewrote the Operating Limitations. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------ Time: 07:26:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection From: "Matt Prather" Has anyone tried to have the wording of their op-lims changed (or customized) before they were issues (when it might arguably be easier to accomplish)? Maybe even talk to the DAR before he comes out and ask him how they are going to be worded.. Regards, Matt- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:06 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection 11/27/2007 Hello Bruce, I would suggest that the contents of the Operating Limitations are dictated by FAA Order 8130.2F. Available here: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet The FSDO, the FAA Inspectors, and the DAR's should be in compliance with that order. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." --------------------------------------------- Time: 08:34:47 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection The contents of the OP Limits are dictated by the local FSDO, and except for some minor points cannot be changed by the ABDAR without approval from the FSDO. Bruce www.Glasair.org ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:27 AM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: AeroElectric-List: Operating Limitations (Compass) bakerocb wrote: << FAA Order 8130.2F, up to date with Change 3 dated 4/18/2007 incorporated, says should be written .. It would appear that your FAA Inspector or DAR did not follow the FAA order when he wrote your aircraft's Operating Limitations. >> Mine were written in 1996, who knows what the standards were then. It's nice the limitations for my new homebuilt should be more liberal. Fact remains, once they are issued, that's what you must abide with. It's sometimes possible to get the limitations changed but since I always comply with 91.205 anyway it's more trouble than it's worth. Lesson remains, check your own operating limitations. Nothing else supersedes them unless the FAA specifically says so. Tom Kuffel ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:49 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Amen! The magnetic Gyro in my Dynon backed up with my GNS430 and trutrak autopilo t was more than adequate for Mr FSDO...I.e no compass required...I just cal led him up defore the day to confirm. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection In a message dated 11/25/2007 5:05:29 PM Central Standard Time, gmcjetpilot @yahoo.com writes: Call the EAA legal department. They don't work in a vacuum, they work with the FAA. >>> Debate this all you want- bottom line is that when the DAR is standing in f ront of you, inspection done and paperwork sitting on the desk awaiting a s ignature and he/she sez "I'm sorry, but you don't have (blahblahblahblah) s o I can't issue your certificate- but get into compliance and make another appointment (and bring a check for another $100 for my trouble) and I'll sl ip you the pink... You folks know your airplanes inside & out- does it make any sense to NOT g et to know your DAR and what he/she expects to see on the appointed day bef orehand? Avoid surprises- preflight your DAR... Mark ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:41 AM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building another bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing it in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick release mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds as though your method will work well for you. But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably be of no consequence. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > > brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: >> >> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most >> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one >> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could >> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I >> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass >> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse >> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". >> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. > The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to > install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the > fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage > compartment 8*) > > I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like > http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg > > I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down > into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball > above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so > might as well make it an ornament. > > > -- > 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:07 AM PST US From: sam ray Subject: AeroElectric-List: sweat soldering fast-on tabs I'm with you guys on only making what is necessary- these projects take way too long as it is! I'm building an RV8, which doesn't have a lot of firewall space avaialable outside the forward baggage area, that is also close to the battery, and stays clear of the rudder pedals. I came up with a clever way to use Bob's grounding system, but it requires making a special single row of fast-on tabs. I'll have 6 fast-on tab pairs, which will be plently since I can rely on Bob's new Instrument Panel Ground using D-subs to handle the bulk of the wires. One of my design goals is not to use the baggage compartments for wiring and electrical systems overflow so I can have maximum baggage space. Looks like I'll be able to pull it off and also have a good grounding system. Thank you for your all your help! Sam Ray Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:44 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG every 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out the windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would not take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your nose cowling. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building another bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing it in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick release mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds as though your method will work well for you. But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably be of no consequence. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > > brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: >> >> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most >> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one >> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could >> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I >> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass >> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse >> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". >> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. > The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to > install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the > fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage > compartment 8*) > > I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like > http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg > > I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down > into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball > above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so > might as well make it an ornament. > > > -- > 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Operating Limitations (Compass) From: Dj Merrill The Kuffels wrote: > > Mine were written in 1996, who knows what the standards were then. > It's nice the limitations for my new homebuilt should be more > liberal. Fact remains, once they are issued, that's what you must > abide with. It's sometimes possible to get the limitations changed > but since I always Hi Tom, You are in luck! It is very easy to get your Op Lims updated to the latest incarnation (or at least it was for me). My Glasair Op Lims were written in 1983, and all it took was a trip to the local FSDO and they gave me an updated set. No inspection necessary, just some paperwork. I called ahead of time, explained what I wanted to do, and setup an appt to have it done. No hassles at all. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ http://deej.net/sportsman/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:35 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Is your EFIS mag heading GOOD or NOT. I don't like games like getting a Walmart car compass and than taking it out. Put it in if you are worried or need to because THE MAN said so and you don't want to argue. I never could get a wet compass to work well in a RV with the roll cage and small seperation to engine, engine mount and other wires. I even tried Degaussing the steel roll bar. With a self powered EFIS & GPS do I really need a wet compass for VFR day? Do you need to back up your MAGNETIC EFIS heading? Truth is the FAA is struggling with GPS and EFIS in the FARS. The FAA has non-regulatory "Guidance", Policy, AIM, NPRM, AC, Orders, TSOs and its hard to keep track of. Many are "reglatory in nature". Great than make them FAR's. They need to update the FAR's to deal with the glass cockpit in GA planes. G >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA >Inspection > >At 11:02 AM 11/26/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most > experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one > that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could > just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I > don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass > to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse > something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". > This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. >> Sounds good to me. Cuts way down on the >> need for "A glass of Jack and an aspirin >> sandwich." --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:41 AM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection I will not have a DG I will have an EFIS with magnemometer. I don't think anyone would argue with you of the nessesity of a compass with a DG. The thing is that the far's are rather sketchy. As can be seen by the arguments this thread has caused. One could be ramp checked in different local's and each FAA inspector may have his opinion on how to read the FAR also. I do agree that the compass will not take up much viewing area when dash mounted but why permanantly mount one when it will be used very little if at all. Basicly all I am driving at is that if in doubt a simple easy to build quick release dash mount might be the way to go. There is no way of changing a mind that has been made up but there are ways to compromise. Each to his own. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Personnaly I think this simple subject has been beaten to death. Put a fork in me and roll me over I'm done. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Gray" Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:24 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't > have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG > every > 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out > the > windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would > not > take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your > nose cowling. > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > > > I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up > more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With > all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building > another > bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will > be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing > it > > in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to > the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is > relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By > some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be > wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick > release > > mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds > as > > though your method will work well for you. > But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the > dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will > protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may > want > > to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would > mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably > be > of no consequence. > > Randy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernest Christley" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > >> >> >> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: >>> >>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most >>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one >>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could >>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I >>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass >>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse >>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". >>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. >> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to >> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the >> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage >> compartment 8*) >> >> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like >> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg >> >> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down >> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball >> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so >> might as well make it an ornament. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM >> >> > > > -- > 11/26/2007 9:08 PM > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:55 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Randy wrote: > But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of > the dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since > it will protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future > device you may want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that > also but figured I would mention. If you have plenty of left over > panel space this would probably be of no consequence. > Good point, Randy. Everyone's situation is different. The underside of my panel looks like this: http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelUnderside.jpg The front side looks like: http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelComplete.jpg I already have the GPS antennae slid into a pocket there. I found a compass at Autozone for $9 last night. It actually has compensators to adjust it. It's about 1.5" high and 2" square. Only about 1" will need to protrude above the panel, and the rest could well fit between a couple other instruments. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:41 AM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Ernest you are building a very interesting plane. I'll bet you will have a hard time with a quick arrival or departure at the small airports with the inquisitive airport bums. lol Very nice job on the panel. If I need advise on building with resin I know who to contact. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:00 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > > Randy wrote: >> But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the >> dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will >> protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may >> want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I >> would mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would >> probably be of no consequence. >> > Good point, Randy. Everyone's situation is different. > > The underside of my panel looks like this: > http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelUnderside.jpg > > The front side looks like: > http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelComplete.jpg > > I already have the GPS antennae slid into a pocket there. I found a > compass at Autozone for $9 last night. It actually has compensators to > adjust it. It's about 1.5" high and 2" square. Only about 1" will need > to protrude above the panel, and the rest could well fit between a couple > other instruments. > > > -- > 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions From: "BuckWynd" It's that time in my building process where I'm making the big decisions regarding the electrical system. At this point I like the idea of a 20-amp aux alternator in addition to the main alternator. I want to see if I've got my design concepts straight here. Maybe someone can help. 1. What is the main benefit of a Z-13/20 over a Z-12 system? Is it that with a Z-12, you must manually load-shed your system in the event of a main alternator failure? Both designs have 20-amp aux alternators, both have one main battery, and both have E-buses. The biggest difference I can see is that the Z-13/20 has an SPDT "E-Bus Alt Master" switch controlling an E-bus contactor, while the Z-12 merely has a switch powering the E-bus from the main battery. 2. This one might help me answer the previous question for myself: On the Z-13/20 system, is the "E-bus Alt Master" switch intended to remain off until needed, or does it stay on during normal ops, allowing the 20A alternator to pick up the E-bus load after a failure of the main alternator? 3. Although my planned E-bus load is approximately 10A right now, I'd definitely consider lowering it below 8A, and use a SD-8 PM alternator and the Z-13/8 design, if the complexity and weight were big enough of an issue. While perusing the two designs side-by-side, I could not help but notice that the 8A alternator requires the use of a voltage regulator, a 20-50uF capacitor, an over-voltage module, a contactor and the related connectors and wiring for these items. The 20A alternator requires just an LR-3 controller, apparently. Is the weight savings of the 8A alternator worth the tradeoff in less individual components and wiring that is apparently required for a 20A one? I can't find the weights of these items anywhere. Thanks to the members of this list for a great learning resource! -------- Buck Wyndham RV-8 N18XL (working on fuselage & systems) Northern Illinois Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148911#148911 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:46 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Randy wrote: > > > Ernest you are building a very interesting plane. > I'll bet you will have a hard time with a quick arrival or departure > at the small airports with the inquisitive airport bums. lol > Very nice job on the panel. If I need advise on > building with resin I know who to contact. > Thank you, but be aware that I'm careful not to take to many closeups of my resin work. 8*) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions At 12:02 PM 11/27/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >It's that time in my building process where I'm making the big decisions >regarding the electrical system. At this point I like the idea of a 20-amp >aux alternator in addition to the main alternator. I want to see if I've >got my design concepts straight here. Maybe someone can help. > >1. What is the main benefit of a Z-13/20 over a Z-12 system? Is it that >with a Z-12, you must manually load-shed your system in the event of a >main alternator failure? Both designs have 20-amp aux alternators, both >have one main battery, and both have E-buses. The biggest difference I can >see is that the Z-13/20 has an SPDT "E-Bus Alt Master" switch controlling >an E-bus contactor, while the Z-12 merely has a switch powering the E-bus >from the main battery. First, why are you considering the SD20 in the first place. How do you plan to use your airplane and what equipment do you plan to install that drives a 10+ amps ebus loads? >2. This one might help me answer the previous question for myself: On the >Z-13/20 system, is the "E-bus Alt Master" switch intended to remain off >until needed, or does it stay on during normal ops, allowing the 20A >alternator to pick up the E-bus load after a failure of the main alternator? > >3. Although my planned E-bus load is approximately 10A right now, I'd >definitely consider lowering it below 8A, and use a SD-8 PM alternator and >the Z-13/8 design, if the complexity and weight were big enough of an >issue. While perusing the two designs side-by-side, I could not help but >notice that the 8A alternator requires the use of a voltage regulator, a >20-50uF capacitor, an over-voltage module, a contactor and the related >connectors and wiring for these items. The 20A alternator requires just an >LR-3 controller, apparently. Is the weight savings of the 8A alternator >worth the tradeoff in less individual components and wiring that is >apparently required for a 20A one? I can't find the weights of these items >anywhere. I'm having trouble imagining any ENDURANCE-bus load that makes addition of 6 pounds and ~$700 to build costs an attractive notion. Let's talk about that before we dissect architectures. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:14 PM PST US From: "Eric Newton" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection My Dynon EFIS has a separate, remote magnetic compass that feeds it heading info. My feeling is - No need for another magnetic compass when you already have one. Eric Newton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Gray" Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:24 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't > have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG > every > 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out > the > windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would > not > take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your > nose cowling. > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > > > I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up > more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With > all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building > another > bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will > be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing > it > > in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to > the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is > relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By > some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be > wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick > release > > mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds > as > > though your method will work well for you. > But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the > dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will > protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may > want > > to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would > mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably > be > of no consequence. > > Randy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernest Christley" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > >> >> >> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: >>> >>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most >>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one >>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could >>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I >>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass >>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse >>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". >>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. >> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to >> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the >> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage >> compartment 8*) >> >> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like >> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg >> >> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down >> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball >> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so >> might as well make it an ornament. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:57 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection What's a DG? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:25 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG every 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out the windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would not take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your nose cowling. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. With all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building another bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation will be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing it in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick release mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds as though your method will work well for you. But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably be of no consequence. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > > brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: >> >> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most >> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one >> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could >> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I >> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass >> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse >> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". >> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. > The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having to > install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the > fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the baggage > compartment 8*) > > I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like > http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg > > I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down > into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball > above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so > might as well make it an ornament. > > > -- > 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:33 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Good Evening mlas, I don't know if you have your tongue in your cheek, but I am confident he was referring to a Directional Gyroscope Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 11/27/2007 7:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, mlas@cox.net writes: What's a DG? **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:17 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Directional gyro. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:23 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection > > What's a DG? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce > Gray > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:25 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > > > I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you > don't > have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG > every > 15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out > the > windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would > not > take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by > your > nose cowling. > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:05 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > > > I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take > up > more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either. > With > all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building > another > bracket is a small thing to me. From what I gather your installation > will > be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about > storing it > > in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach > to > the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is > relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. > By > some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not > be > wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick > release > > mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it > sounds as > > though your method will work well for you. > But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the > > dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it > will > protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may > want > > to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I > would > mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably > be > of no consequence. > > Randy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernest Christley" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:41 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA > Inspection > > >> >> >> brinker@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: >>> >>> The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments > most >>> experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install > one >>> that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one > could >>> just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. > I >>> don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the > compass >>> to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse >>> something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". > >>> This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. >> The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think. It is having > to >> install it in the first place. If you've already gone through the >> fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the > baggage >> compartment 8*) >> >> I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project. One like >> http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg >> >> I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess > down >> into, right even with the bottom of the globe part. Just a half ball >> above the dash. It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so >> might as well make it an ornament. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:28 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions From: "BuckWynd" nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net wrote: > First, why are you considering the SD20 in the first > place. How do you plan to use your airplane and what > equipment do you plan to install that drives a > 10+ amps ebus loads? > I'm having trouble imagining any ENDURANCE-bus load > that makes addition of 6 pounds and ~$700 to build > costs an attractive notion. > > Let's talk about that before we dissect architectures. > Hi Bob, To answer your questions, I'm considering installing an SD20 because, frankly, a). it's available and b). I'm comfortable with a bit of "overkill" when it comes to electrical power generation. Cost is simply not an issue, and weight-saving, while important to me, is secondary to building a robust electrical system. (As an aside, I'm saving over 30 pounds from a "stock" RV-8 by using a lightweight composite prop and lightweight aluminum landing gear. Other improvements will save even more weight.) My airplane will be used for a lot of day VFR, but also some fairly regular IFR cross-country, and occassional night flying. It wil be highly-electrical dependent, with dual GRT EFIS displays, a backup Dynon D-10A, a Garmin 430, a Garmin SL-30, a Garmin 330 transponder, a PMA9000 audio panel, and a Trutrak Digiflight II VSVG autopilot. Not all of these items are on the E-bus, of course, but some are. My concept of the E-bus (and I do NOT mind calling it an Essential Bus -- it does not scare me or exude a negative connotation -- it's what every sophisticated airplane I've flown in 28 years calls it) is to cover the loads of the aircraft's important avionics and some carefully selected accessories while I comfortably divert to a suitable airport where maintenance can be undertaken. I do not necessarily want to continue to my planned destination -- that goes against my personal ideas of safety. (That topic is a whole other thread which I do not want to get into here...) So there you have it -- I guess I'm attracted to a 20-amp alternator because it exists; because installing one would allow me a margin of "comfortable operability" without utilizing my main battery's capacity one iota while I'm diverting to a suitable airport; and because cost is not part of the equation. So what remains in the equation are weight, complexity (number of parts, wires and connectors), and reliability. If you need to have a complete list of my E-bus loads, I'll certainly post them here in a day or so when I return home and consult my notebook... Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate all input on this matter. Buck -------- Buck Wyndham RV-8 N18XL (working on fuselage & systems) Northern Illinois Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148988#148988 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:15 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection It was answer A. :-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:44 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection Good Evening mlas, I don't know if you have your tongue in your cheek, but I am confident he was referring to a Directional Gyroscope Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 11/27/2007 7:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, mlas@cox.net writes: What's a DG? _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the HYPERLINK "http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000 1" \nhottest products and HYPERLINK "http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto p00030000000002" \ntop money wasters of 2007. "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries.com AA Alkaline Cell Tests From: Ron Quillin At 07:26 11/24/2007, you wrote: >Typically, these "low cost" cells can be had for >20 to 25-cents per cell. The cost per watt-hour >for all devices tested to date have been relatively >attractive. Another source to check out... http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/campaigns/campaigntemplate.asp?CampaignID=389&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=WEM1506C or http://tinyurl.com/24oj9b For a selection from TigerDirect. RonQ. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions At 06:41 PM 11/27/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > >nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net wrote: > > First, why are you considering the SD20 in the first > > place. How do you plan to use your airplane and what > > equipment do you plan to install that drives a > > 10+ amps ebus loads? > > > > I'm having trouble imagining any ENDURANCE-bus load > > that makes addition of 6 pounds and ~$700 to build > > costs an attractive notion. > > > > Let's talk about that before we dissect architectures. > > > > >Hi Bob, > >To answer your questions, I'm considering installing an SD20 because, >frankly, a). it's available and b). I'm comfortable with a bit of >"overkill" when it comes to electrical power generation. Cost is simply >not an issue, and weight-saving, while important to me, is secondary to >building a robust electrical system. (As an aside, I'm saving over 30 >pounds from a "stock" RV-8 by using a lightweight composite prop and >lightweight aluminum landing gear. Other improvements will save even more >weight.) > >My airplane will be used for a lot of day VFR, but also some fairly >regular IFR cross-country, and occassional night flying. It wil be >highly-electrical dependent, with dual GRT EFIS displays, a backup Dynon >D-10A, a Garmin 430, a Garmin SL-30, a Garmin 330 transponder, a PMA9000 >audio panel, and a Trutrak Digiflight II VSVG autopilot. Not all of these >items are on the E-bus, of course, but some are. Which ones are and what are their en-route current requirements? >My concept of the E-bus (and I do NOT mind calling it an Essential Bus -- >it does not scare me or exude a negative connotation -- it's what every >sophisticated airplane I've flown in 28 years calls it) is to cover the >loads of the aircraft's important avionics and some carefully selected >accessories while I comfortably divert to a suitable airport where >maintenance can be undertaken. I do not necessarily want to continue to my >planned destination -- that goes against my personal ideas of safety. >(That topic is a whole other thread which I do not want to get into here...) > >So there you have it -- I guess I'm attracted to a 20-amp alternator >because it exists; because installing one would allow me a margin of >"comfortable operability" without utilizing my main battery's capacity one >iota while I'm diverting to a suitable airport; and because cost is not >part of the equation. > >So what remains in the equation are weight, complexity (number of parts, >wires and connectors), and reliability. > >If you need to have a complete list of my E-bus loads, I'll certainly post >them here in a day or so when I return home and consult my notebook... Hmmmm . . . if you really want the SD-20, then go with Z-12. Z-13/20 sucks and I'm taking it out at the next revision. It wasn't a very good idea in the first place. . . In fact, I think I'll take it out of Appendix Z now. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:57 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection From: "AirMike" While I agree with a lot of what you say, I must say that I once has a total electrical failure and my PAI vertical card compass sure came in handy to fly the reciprocal backs to Carson City from the middle of the Nevada desert -------- OSH '08 or Bust Q/B Kit - Doors/windows/fiberglass stuff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149018#149018 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.