---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/05/07: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:04 AM - Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (Jeff Page) 2. 06:12 AM - Re: Homebuilt Regulations (Mike) 3. 06:42 AM - Re: Recommendation against buying B & C fuse holders (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:17 AM - Re: Off to Columbus (panhandler1956) 6. 03:05 PM - ANL 60 (Kevin Boddicker) 7. 09:56 PM - Re: ANL 60 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:35 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions > The architecture is clumsy. It will "function as advertised" > but it's not a design I'm proud of and it tends to encourage > folks to "overkill" on their engine driven power sources > at the expense of $time$ and weight. Bob, I believe these comments refer specifically to Z13/20, but not Z13/8 ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:20 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Homebuilt Regulations With respect to the certification of small general aviation aircraft: The first thing you must take into account is the concept at work: The government is looking to create an aircraft that can be safely flown by someone who holds no other knowledge then basics to operate the product period. Therefore any product that has ANY interpretive method of use will not certify. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bakerocb@cox.net Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebuilt Regulations 12/3/2007 Hello Fellow Listers, I thought that this letter on AVWEB may be of interest. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------------ Homebuilt Regulations Your question this week about homebuilt regulations compels a more detailed response (QOTW, Nov. 29). The regulation and certification of small aircraft in the U.S. is seriously flawed and in some ways actually reduces safety. Burt Rutan with SpaceShipOne showed the direction we need to go. In Burt's case, an incentive in the form of a prize was offered to trigger innovative minds to come up with new solutions. It has been true for years that many people in the homebuilt community are motivated to participate not because they want to build an airplane but because they are not able to acquire the cutting-edge technology they want in an airplane elsewhere. The high regulatory barriers to certification of aircraft and aviation-related products produces new aircraft and products that cost great sums of money or the products are not available at all. Safety is reduced because new technology cannot be introduced promptly and at an appropriate cost. All the new certified diesel engines for aircraft are now produced outside the U.S. If new regulation to expand the homebuilt options is possible, it is a good place to start. But it is only a start. I recently had overhauled two Slick mags for my Cessna 140. My kids are getting their licenses in this aircraft. In one mag the coil went bad at 700 hours since new. To overhaul and replace both coils cost $1000. It will last another 700 hours! Because of regulation, no market forces exist forcing the manufacture to improve this product or permit competing products. New technology has existed for 75 years and exists in the homebuilt area but is not permitted in my aircraft. Clearly the safety of my aircraft is reduced because of the limited reliability of the available products. Any reduced regulation that permits new technology to be introduced faster and with more freedom in new and existing products is welcome and needed. The market will demand and produce innovation that increases safety and performance far in excess of what regulation will produce. In Rutan's case the prize was needed. Here the market forces exist; the only thing needed is for the regulators to get out of the way! Joe Halsmer 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Recommendation against buying B & C fuse holders At 09:02 AM 12/3/2007 -0500, you wrote: >I normally try to avoid using inline fuse holders as bad memories come >back to me from crawling under my 70's something car trying to patch one >more stupid engineering trick. > >When I came across the IFH-2 on the B & C site for $3.00 I thought I'd >give them another try. Well, they suck too. They are nothing more that two >fast on connectors set in an injection mold. Not that this is bad in >itself (they could have used a real buss base instead), but they aren't >even set strait. Both of those I bought have base connectors which sit at >least 20 off of center one way or the other. > >The reason I bought these was for testing not installation. So, after >wrestling the first fuse into the socket, I then wanted to test using >another fuse. While trying gently pulling out the first fuse to change it, >the tab on my fuse broke and it was a b&(*( to pull it out. > >Bottom line - like a lot of this stuff, take a look down the street before >jumping at the avionics wizards. Except for tefzel wire which they don't >carry (they can probably order) I found a lot of this stuff at my local >NAPA store. NAPA fuse holders, while slightly more $ are twice the quality >and you don't need a lineman's pliers to get the broken fuse tabs out. > >NAPA also carries a premium line of fast on connectors which are well >priced. Don't buy the cheapo blue/yellow jacket ones, but the red ones are >very good. And they don't charge shipping. > >The other thing I am learning is that there is no rocket science involved >here. Use the right wire, the right amperage and make pretty connections. >Leave the fancy internals up to Garmin. Thanks for the feedback here. I'm wondering where they're getting their inline holders these days. I think I was using Bussmann when that inventory was shipped up to B&C some years ago but it's problematic as to where they might come from today. I'll do a little research and see if I can identify another source with more consistent quality. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions At 07:58 AM 12/5/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 and Z-13/20 features questions >> The architecture is clumsy. It will "function as advertised" >> but it's not a design I'm proud of and it tends to encourage >> folks to "overkill" on their engine driven power sources >> at the expense of $time$ and weight. > >Bob, >I believe these comments refer specifically to Z13/20, but not Z13/8 ? >Jeff Page >Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 Absolutely. If I were building an airplane today, 13/8 would be my architecture of choice. It's my considered opinion that 13/8 offers the simplest, lightest and lowest cost approach to system reliability. I think 13/20 germinated the morning after the night before and too many beers . . . or maybe it was those halbanero peppers . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:13 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Off to Columbus From: "panhandler1956" Cool - thanks Bob! -------- Brent O. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150604#150604 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:01 PM PST US From: Kevin Boddicker Subject: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 Bob, I have burned two ANL 60 series limiters in six months. I have no idea why. The circumstances were the same both times though. I had just put my engine back on the plane after some maintenance. After start up I excite the field. This has been my method to check that the alternator is working. Both times the LV light has remained on. With no indication of charging. I thought my battery might have been low, but putting on the charger this morning indicated not. Not a huge deal, but at $20 a copy it is getting old. Any suggestions? Using a 55 amp DN IR alt. with crowbar OV. Kevin Boddicker Tri Q 200 N7868B 79.6 hours Luana, IA. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 At 05:05 PM 12/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Bob, >I have burned two ANL 60 series limiters in six months. I have no idea why. >The circumstances were the same both times though. I had just put my >engine back on the plane after some maintenance. After start up I excite >the field. This has been my method to check that the alternator is >working. Both times the LV light has remained on. With no indication of >charging. I thought my battery might have been low, but putting on the >charger this morning indicated not. Not a huge deal, but at $20 a copy it >is getting old. >Any suggestions? >Using a 55 amp DN IR alt. with crowbar OV. If you have 70+ hours on the airplane, do I presume correctly that the system HAS functioned most of the time without blowing the limiter? Normally, there's but two things that will open this limiter. (1) hard fault on the alternator side of the limiter. I.e. shorted diodes in alternator or shorted wiring between alternator and b-lead terminal or (2) battery in backwards. or external battery connected to system is jumper cabled in backwards. If you have an internally regulated alternator do I also presume correctly that you're using Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect scheme? 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