---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/06/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:03 AM - Matronics List Fund Raiser - 2007 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle) 2. 01:08 AM - com antenna problem (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9o_Celis?=) 3. 05:43 AM - Re: com antenna problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:03 AM - Re: ANL 60 (Kevin Boddicker) 5. 08:22 AM - Re: ANL 60 (Matt Prather) 6. 09:48 AM - Re: com antenna problem () 7. 12:51 PM - Re: com antenna problem (jetboy) 8. 01:11 PM - Erratic Alternator Control with LR3C-28 (John Richardson) 9. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: com antenna problem (Robert Feldtman) 10. 03:14 PM - Re: ANL 60 (Kevin Boddicker) 11. 04:15 PM - Re: ANL 60 (Matt Prather) 12. 07:38 PM - IFR instrument check question (Emrath) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:48 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Matronics List Fund Raiser - 2007 List of Contributors Dear Listers, I would like to thank everyone that made a Contribution in support of the Lists this year! It was really nice to hear all great comments people had regarding the Lists! As I have said many times before, running these Lists is a labor of love. Your generosity during the List Fund Raiser underscores the great sentiments people have made regarding the Lists. If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser please feel free to do so. The great List Fund Raiser gifts will be available on the Contribution site for just a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution and get your great gift! Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of Homebuilt HELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of discounted merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated! And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2007 List of Contributors current as of 12/6/07! Have a look at this list of names as these are the people that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser! THANK YOU! http://www.matronics.com/loc/2007.html I will be shipping out all of the gifts in the next few weeks and hope to have everything out by the end of the month. In most cases, gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service. Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:11 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9o_Celis?= Subject: AeroElectric-List: com antenna problem Good morning Bob, Our RV-7A is nearing completion here in Leuven (close to Brussels-Belgium) On checking the radios, 2 SL30 with the GMA340 ASP, our com 1 has a problem when transmitting: ammeter deflects full scale (towards the + side !?) when pushing the PTT - same on both sticks. The com2 shows a normal neg ammeter deflection when tx. Switching boxes in the rack: same result. (My knowledge of electronics is very limited; before becoming an airline pilot I was a chemical engeneer.) We then switched antennas behind the instr panel and now com2 had the problem. Maybe a bad crimp on the coax connector? So therefore we opened the baggage rear panel and connected coax com1 to the belly Comant antenna 2 (com1 ant is on top of the fuselage) and now the readings were normal: neg amm deflection. Bad Comant CI 121 antenna #1? Both ant are new ones, straight out of the box. Maybe irrelevant , but using the Fluke meter, there is no short between the base and center conductor and when testing capacity, the meter tests OL. Very probably you have seen this before? I have been reading the e-mails on the list since a few months now and I was very interested in all yr comments. Hope you can help us too. Thanks. Tho Celis AeroElectric-List > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: com antenna problem At 10:05 AM 12/6/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > >Good morning Bob, > >Our RV-7A is nearing completion here in Leuven (close to Brussels-Belgium) >On checking the radios, 2 SL30 with the GMA340 ASP, our com 1 has a problem >when transmitting: ammeter deflects full scale (towards the + side !?) when >pushing the PTT - same on both sticks. The com2 shows a normal neg ammeter >deflection when tx. >Switching boxes in the rack: same result. (My knowledge of electronics is very >limited; before becoming an airline pilot I was a chemical engeneer.) >We then switched antennas behind the instr panel and now com2 had the problem. >Maybe a bad crimp on the coax connector? So therefore we opened the >baggage rear panel >and connected coax com1 to the belly Comant antenna 2 (com1 ant is on top >of the fuselage) >and now the readings were normal: neg amm deflection. Bad Comant CI 121 >antenna #1? >Both ant are new ones, straight out of the box. >Maybe irrelevant , but using the Fluke meter, there is no short between >the base and center >conductor and when testing capacity, the meter tests OL. >Very probably you have seen this before? You don't mention the type of aircraft. Composite? What kind of 'ammeter' . . . electronic? Digital display? The list of observations you've cited suggests an ammeter that is not designed to live in the high radio frequency fields that exist in and around the panels of composite aircraft. If you've checked out your antenna feedlines then this hypothesis is more likely. It's not uncommon for the interference condition to change markedly with changes of configuration. I've seen a 'problem' that went away when the mechanic was trying to demonstrate it for me . . . but came back when I left the cockpit. Seems that my body mass changed the radiation patterns in the cockpit enough to shift the condition! What kind of ammeter display do you have? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:02 AM PST US From: Kevin Boddicker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 > If you have an internally regulated alternator > do I also presume correctly that you're using > Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect > scheme? > > Bob . . . Yes I do have the b-lead contactor in line after the ANL 60. I have had no trouble with the system other than this. Happened twice. Both times after engine removal. Seems odd. The first time I thought it was the alternator, so I took the engine back off and had it checked. The tests came out fine. I think he checked the diodes, then ran it up to check for output. Again fine. After I replaced the ANL 60 things were working smoothly. I did have the engine off during annual, and to trouble with that reinstall when I fired it up. Not so this time. Thanks for your help, Kevin Boddicker Tri Q 200 N7868B 79.6 hours Luana, IA. On Dec 5, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 05:05 PM 12/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >> Bob, >> I have burned two ANL 60 series limiters in six months. I have no >> idea why. >> The circumstances were the same both times though. I had just put >> my engine back on the plane after some maintenance. After start up >> I excite the field. This has been my method to check that the >> alternator is working. Both times the LV light has remained on. >> With no indication of charging. I thought my battery might have >> been low, but putting on the charger this morning indicated not. >> Not a huge deal, but at $20 a copy it is getting old. >> Any suggestions? >> Using a 55 amp DN IR alt. with crowbar OV. > > > If you have 70+ hours on the airplane, do I presume > correctly that the system HAS functioned most of > the time without blowing the limiter? > > Normally, there's but two things that will open > this limiter. (1) hard fault on the alternator > side of the limiter. I.e. shorted diodes in > alternator or shorted wiring between alternator > and b-lead terminal or (2) battery in backwards. > or external battery connected to system is > jumper cabled in backwards. > > If you have an internally regulated alternator > do I also presume correctly that you're using > Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect > scheme? > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 From: "Matt Prather" It's an internally regulated alternator and you "excite the field".. By what means? Are you just connecting the sense line? Do you know that the ANL is blown before turning on the alternator? I wonder if it's actually being blown out by a bad ground. I can't visualize a conduction path at the moment, but possibly the b-lead represents a ground path during starter operation? Another thought.. Are you sure it's actually a 55A alternator? Would a 110A unit blow an ANL60? Maybe not given the long time constant of ANL's, and assuming a charged battery. Regards, Matt- >> If you have an internally regulated alternator >> do I also presume correctly that you're using >> Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect >> scheme? >> >> Bob . . . > > > Yes I do have the b-lead contactor in line after the ANL 60. > I have had no trouble with the system other than this. Happened > twice. Both times after engine removal. Seems odd. > The first time I thought it was the alternator, so I took the engine > back off and had it checked. The tests came out fine. I think he > checked the diodes, then ran it up to check for output. Again fine. > After I replaced the ANL 60 things were working smoothly. I did have > the engine off during annual, and to trouble with that reinstall when > I fired it up. > Not so this time. > Thanks for your help, > > Kevin Boddicker > Tri Q 200 N7868B 79.6 hours > Luana, IA. > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> >> >> At 05:05 PM 12/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: >> >>> Bob, >>> I have burned two ANL 60 series limiters in six months. I have no >>> idea why. >>> The circumstances were the same both times though. I had just put >>> my engine back on the plane after some maintenance. After start up >>> I excite the field. This has been my method to check that the >>> alternator is working. Both times the LV light has remained on. >>> With no indication of charging. I thought my battery might have >>> been low, but putting on the charger this morning indicated not. >>> Not a huge deal, but at $20 a copy it is getting old. >>> Any suggestions? >>> Using a 55 amp DN IR alt. with crowbar OV. >> >> >> If you have 70+ hours on the airplane, do I presume >> correctly that the system HAS functioned most of >> the time without blowing the limiter? >> >> Normally, there's but two things that will open >> this limiter. (1) hard fault on the alternator >> side of the limiter. I.e. shorted diodes in >> alternator or shorted wiring between alternator >> and b-lead terminal or (2) battery in backwards. >> or external battery connected to system is >> jumper cabled in backwards. >> >> If you have an internally regulated alternator >> do I also presume correctly that you're using >> Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect >> scheme? >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: com antenna problem From: Hey Bob, between the lines - it's an RV-7A, you know, one of those slower metal jobs - sorry. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:42 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: com antenna problem --> At 10:05 AM 12/6/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > >Good morning Bob, > >Our RV-7A is nearing completion here in Leuven (close to >Brussels-Belgium) On checking the radios, 2 SL30 with the GMA340 ASP, >our com 1 has a problem when transmitting: ammeter deflects full scale >(towards the + side !?) when pushing the PTT - same on both sticks. The >com2 shows a normal neg ammeter deflection when tx. Switching boxes in >the rack: same result. (My knowledge of electronics is very limited; >before becoming an airline pilot I was a chemical engeneer.) We then >switched antennas behind the instr panel and now com2 had the problem. >Maybe a bad crimp on the coax connector? So therefore we opened the >baggage rear panel and connected coax com1 to the belly Comant antenna >2 (com1 ant is on top of the fuselage) >and now the readings were normal: neg amm deflection. Bad Comant CI 121 >antenna #1? >Both ant are new ones, straight out of the box. >Maybe irrelevant , but using the Fluke meter, there is no short between >the base and center >conductor and when testing capacity, the meter tests OL. >Very probably you have seen this before? You don't mention the type of aircraft. Composite? What kind of 'ammeter' . . . electronic? Digital display? The list of observations you've cited suggests an ammeter that is not designed to live in the high radio frequency fields that exist in and around the panels of composite aircraft. If you've checked out your antenna feedlines then this hypothesis is more likely. It's not uncommon for the interference condition to change markedly with changes of configuration. I've seen a 'problem' that went away when the mechanic was trying to demonstrate it for me . . . but came back when I left the cockpit. Seems that my body mass changed the radiation patterns in the cockpit enough to shift the condition! What kind of ammeter display do you have? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:14 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: com antenna problem From: "jetboy" May need to put a clip-on ferrite over the ammeter sense wires, at both ends or at cockpit bulkhead. Get the ferrites from a electronics or computer store. 13 to 20 mm size should do. Quite enough RF gets into the cabin of metal A/C, to upset the electronic gauges. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150847#150847 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:38 PM PST US From: "John Richardson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Erratic Alternator Control with LR3C-28 I wonder if anyone else using the LR3C-28 and the Kelly Aerospace 100 A gear driven alternator (common on new TCM IO-550N) has experienced erratic overcharging when electrical load is low? Not enough overcharge to trip the over voltage circuit, but enough to cause the bus voltage to reach 30.5 V in spikes from the normal 28.5 V. This erratic voltage surging only occurs at engine RPM over about 2100 and when electrical load is below about 10 A. Here's just a brief run-down of the couple things I've looked at. I've replaced ground wires, circuit breakers, re-crimped all ring terminals and measured voltages on the regulator during flight. In looking at the "field" terminal of the LR3C (pin 4) with an oscilloscope in flight, I see an average voltage of about 5 to 6 volts but I also see 25 volt spikes occurring almost all the time with spacing anywhere from about 10 milliseconds to about 100 milliseconds. These spikes go away when electrical load is increased and field voltage raises above 10 V. At low engine RPM, less than 1200, the charging system is stable independent of load. If this subtle electrical problem is familiar to you and you have an idea what might be going on, I'd appreciate a reply. Thanks John Richardson Lancair Legacy, 30 hours flying ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:22 PM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: com antenna problem Palomar engineering sells ferrites for hams bobf On 12/6/07, jetboy wrote: > > > May need to put a clip-on ferrite over the ammeter sense wires, at both > ends or at cockpit bulkhead. Get the ferrites from a electronics or computer > store. 13 to 20 mm size should do. Quite enough RF gets into the cabin of > metal A/C, to upset the electronic gauges. > > Ralph > > -------- > Ralph - CH701 / 2200a > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150847#150847 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:25 PM PST US From: Kevin Boddicker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 Kevin Boddicker Tri Q 200 N7868B hours Luana, IA. On Dec 6, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Matt Prather wrote: > > > It's an internally regulated alternator and you "excite the > field".. By > what means? Are you just connecting the sense line? I have a split rocker "ala Cessna". After start up I "turn on" excite the field. > > Do you know that the ANL is blown before turning on the alternator? I > wonder if it's actually being blown out by a bad ground. I can't > visualize a conduction path at the moment, but possibly the b-lead > represents a ground path during starter operation? > > Another thought.. Are you sure it's actually a 55A alternator? > Would a > 110A unit blow an ANL60? Maybe not given the long time constant of > ANL's, > and assuming a charged battery. It is a 55A DN alt. converted from a Geo Metro. I "think I have it figured out. Not sure yet. I think the B-lead at the alt contactor is so close to the alum sheet that covers the firewall, or may be touching. If that is so the current could be able to go to ground via the firewall, forrest of tabs, ground lug to engine. I thought this last summer when I had the trouble, but could not find any sign of an arc. The termination is covered with black shrink tube, but it has some cracks in it. I do remember it getting close to the firewall as I tightened it last Sunday night. I also recall moving it away from the FW last summer and not letting it get close this fall after engine reinstall. I will check it out ASAP and let the group know. May be a while it is snowing here, and the forecast calls for more. The runway has been close since Saturday due to ice. Any comments are welcome. Thanks, Kevin > > >>> If you have an internally regulated alternator >>> do I also presume correctly that you're using >>> Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect >>> scheme? >>> >>> Bob . . . >> >> >> Yes I do have the b-lead contactor in line after the ANL 60. >> I have had no trouble with the system other than this. Happened >> twice. Both times after engine removal. Seems odd. >> The first time I thought it was the alternator, so I took the engine >> back off and had it checked. The tests came out fine. I think he >> checked the diodes, then ran it up to check for output. Again fine. >> After I replaced the ANL 60 things were working smoothly. I did have >> the engine off during annual, and to trouble with that reinstall when >> I fired it up. >> Not so this time. >> Thanks for your help, >> >> Kevin Boddicker >> Tri Q 200 N7868B 79.6 hours >> Luana, IA. >> >> >> On Dec 5, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> At 05:05 PM 12/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: >>> >>>> Bob, >>>> I have burned two ANL 60 series limiters in six months. I have no >>>> idea why. >>>> The circumstances were the same both times though. I had just put >>>> my engine back on the plane after some maintenance. After start up >>>> I excite the field. This has been my method to check that the >>>> alternator is working. Both times the LV light has remained on. >>>> With no indication of charging. I thought my battery might have >>>> been low, but putting on the charger this morning indicated not. >>>> Not a huge deal, but at $20 a copy it is getting old. >>>> Any suggestions? >>>> Using a 55 amp DN IR alt. with crowbar OV. >>> >>> >>> If you have 70+ hours on the airplane, do I presume >>> correctly that the system HAS functioned most of >>> the time without blowing the limiter? >>> >>> Normally, there's but two things that will open >>> this limiter. (1) hard fault on the alternator >>> side of the limiter. I.e. shorted diodes in >>> alternator or shorted wiring between alternator >>> and b-lead terminal or (2) battery in backwards. >>> or external battery connected to system is >>> jumper cabled in backwards. >>> >>> If you have an internally regulated alternator >>> do I also presume correctly that you're using >>> Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect >>> scheme? >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 From: "Matt Prather" Sounds like you might have it.. Can you grind the bolt down any and still get the not and lug on it? Or dent the firewall a bit with some kind of round tool (a socket of some sort). Regards, Matt- > > Kevin Boddicker > Tri Q 200 N7868B hours > Luana, IA. > > > On Dec 6, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Matt Prather wrote: > >> >> >> It's an internally regulated alternator and you "excite the >> field".. By >> what means? Are you just connecting the sense line? > > I have a split rocker "ala Cessna". After start up I "turn on" excite > the field. >> >> Do you know that the ANL is blown before turning on the alternator? I >> wonder if it's actually being blown out by a bad ground. I can't >> visualize a conduction path at the moment, but possibly the b-lead >> represents a ground path during starter operation? >> >> Another thought.. Are you sure it's actually a 55A alternator? >> Would a >> 110A unit blow an ANL60? Maybe not given the long time constant of >> ANL's, >> and assuming a charged battery. > > It is a 55A DN alt. converted from a Geo Metro. > I "think I have it figured out. Not sure yet. I think the B-lead at > the alt contactor is so close to the alum sheet that covers the > firewall, or may be touching. If that is so the current could be able > to go to ground via the firewall, forrest of tabs, ground lug to > engine. I thought this last summer when I had the trouble, but could > not find any sign of an arc. The termination is covered with black > shrink tube, but it has some cracks in it. I do remember it getting > close to the firewall as I tightened it last Sunday night. I also > recall moving it away from the FW last summer and not letting it get > close this fall after engine reinstall. I will check it out ASAP and > let the group know. May be a while it is snowing here, and the > forecast calls for more. > The runway has been close since Saturday due to ice. > Any comments are welcome. > Thanks, > Kevin >> >> >> >>>> If you have an internally regulated alternator >>>> do I also presume correctly that you're using >>>> Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect >>>> scheme? >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> Yes I do have the b-lead contactor in line after the ANL 60. >>> I have had no trouble with the system other than this. Happened >>> twice. Both times after engine removal. Seems odd. >>> The first time I thought it was the alternator, so I took the engine >>> back off and had it checked. The tests came out fine. I think he >>> checked the diodes, then ran it up to check for output. Again fine. >>> After I replaced the ANL 60 things were working smoothly. I did have >>> the engine off during annual, and to trouble with that reinstall when >>> I fired it up. >>> Not so this time. >>> Thanks for your help, >>> >>> Kevin Boddicker >>> Tri Q 200 N7868B 79.6 hours >>> Luana, IA. >>> >>> >>> On Dec 5, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At 05:05 PM 12/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bob, >>>>> I have burned two ANL 60 series limiters in six months. I have no >>>>> idea why. >>>>> The circumstances were the same both times though. I had just put >>>>> my engine back on the plane after some maintenance. After start up >>>>> I excite the field. This has been my method to check that the >>>>> alternator is working. Both times the LV light has remained on. >>>>> With no indication of charging. I thought my battery might have >>>>> been low, but putting on the charger this morning indicated not. >>>>> Not a huge deal, but at $20 a copy it is getting old. >>>>> Any suggestions? >>>>> Using a 55 amp DN IR alt. with crowbar OV. >>>> >>>> >>>> If you have 70+ hours on the airplane, do I presume >>>> correctly that the system HAS functioned most of >>>> the time without blowing the limiter? >>>> >>>> Normally, there's but two things that will open >>>> this limiter. (1) hard fault on the alternator >>>> side of the limiter. I.e. shorted diodes in >>>> alternator or shorted wiring between alternator >>>> and b-lead terminal or (2) battery in backwards. >>>> or external battery connected to system is >>>> jumper cabled in backwards. >>>> >>>> If you have an internally regulated alternator >>>> do I also presume correctly that you're using >>>> Z-24 with b-lead contactor as the ov disconnect >>>> scheme? >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:27 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: AeroElectric-List: IFR instrument check question Here's a question from a fellow member in our local EAA Chapter. "Garmin has finally released new software for its 500W and 400W navigators. I had it installed today in my 430W and 530W. With this release, my GPSs are now certified as a sole source navigation device. One benefit of this is that my alternate airports can have only GPS approaches. A question I have is do I still need to do the 30-day accuracy checks on my VOR receivers? I assume the answer is no unless I plan to use my VOR receivers for navigation. I can't remember the last time I did that and have no plans to do so in the future. I've always used the GPS even when flying on airways. At Smyrna (MQY) it's not a big deal since there is a VOT on the field and it's usually working. There are lots of airports though that don't have a VOT and you can't receive the VOR on the ground. In that case you can't launch into IMC unless you have done an accuracy check. Presumably I'm now exempt from that if my GPS is functioning. Anyone know the answer?" 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