---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/19/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:24 AM - Re: Battery Contactors (Noel Karppinen) 2. 01:35 AM - Re: Battery Contactors (Noel Karppinen) 3. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Battery Contactors (Peter Laurence) 4. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Battery Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:54 AM - Re: Clearance/delivery switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 05:58 AM - Re: Cesnna split switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:02 AM - Re: ANL 60 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Cesnna split switch (John Swanson) 9. 11:36 AM - Re: Cesnna split switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 04:38 PM - Audio isolation amp questions (nauga@brick.net) 11. 08:50 PM - Re: Audio isolation amp questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:08 AM PST US From: "Noel Karppinen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactors At 16:59 12/17/2007, you wrote: >>Is it normal for battery contactors to run hot, or have I >>encountered two faulty contactors? >> >>Noel Karppinen > > Do you perhaps have contactors rated for intermittent (starter) >service rather than continuous (battery) service? > >Ron Q. Hi Ron The original contactor came from Aircraft Spruce, and is one of their master relays, rated for continuous use. The other came fom a local LAME (or A&P, I believe, for all you guys in the US). Since I asked for a battery contactor, I'm pretty sure that would also be for continuous use. Noel ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:12 AM PST US From: "Noel Karppinen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactors "Richard T. Schaefer" wrote: >It's normal for them to be a little too warm to touch. The current is about right. Look at this at a 10W heater. It will get warm! _____ >>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel >>Karppinen >>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:59 PM >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactors >>I have just started wiring up a Jabiru 3300 installation, which includes a >>battery contactor. I wanted to test that the basic power wiring was OK >>before going too far with the wiring, so I connected a bench power supply to >>the input side of the contactor, and selected the battery position on the >>master switch. Everything seemed to be working correctly, except that the >>contactor became quite hot to touch once it had been on for a while. (There >>was no load on the main bus at this stage, the only current through the >>contactor was the coil current.) I removed it and replaced it with a second >>borrowed contactor, with the same result. I also took the contactors out of >>the aircraft, and checked them on the bench, and again, they became quite >>hot. Both contactors drew a coil current of about 750 mA. Thanks, Richard. That makes me feel more confident that there is no real problem. Noel Karppinen ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:36 AM PST US From: " Peter Laurence" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactors Noel Check the resistance on the coil. A continuous duty contactor will show a resistance of 10 to 18 ohms. An intermittant one will show 3 to 5 ohms Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Karppinen To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactors At 16:59 12/17/2007, you wrote: >>Is it normal for battery contactors to run hot, or have I >>encountered two faulty contactors? >> >>Noel Karppinen > > Do you perhaps have contactors rated for intermittent (starter) >service rather than continuous (battery) service? > >Ron Q.Hi Ron The original contactor came from Aircraft Spruce, and is one of their master relays, rated for continuous use. The other came fom a local LAME (or A&P, I believe, for all you guys in the US). Since I asked for a battery contactor, I'm pretty sure that would also be for continuous use. Noel 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactors At 08:32 PM 12/19/2007 +1100, you wrote: >"Richard T. Schaefer" ><schaefer@rts-services.com> wrote: > >It's normal for them to be a little too warm to touch. The current is > about right. Look at this at a 10W heater. It will get warm! > Dead on target Richard. In times past that this conversation was conducted, I went to the bench and held one of our stock battery contactors in an energized condition until its temperature stabilized. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg The effects of temperature rise were obvious too in terms of the current draw for the contactor. Room temperature current draw was on the order of 0.8 amps. But after two hours of operation . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg . . . current draw is down to about 0.56 amps. This phenomenon is a function of the positive temperature coefficient of copper wire used to wind the coil. As the device warms up, it's resistance goes up and the current goes down. In terms of a gross test of a contactor's intermittent or continuous duty status, if it's still functioning after 5 minutes of continuous operation then it MUST be a continuous duty device. The intermittent duty devices tailored for starter motor control would have spit out all their smoke after 5 minutes! It's not often that we are physically able to "feel" a piece of operating equipment and find that it's too hot to touch but it can raise concerns when the device is not OBVIOUSLY designed to run hot . . . like engines and exhaust stacks. The contactors that dissipate about 10 watts don't heat up real fast . . . but in still air they'll get pretty toasty. Bob . . . > > >>I have just started wiring up a Jabiru 3300 installation, which > includes a > >>battery contactor. I wanted to test that the basic power wiring > was OK > >>before going too far with the wiring, so I connected a bench > power supply to > >>the input side of the contactor, and selected the battery > position on the > >>master switch. Everything seemed to be working correctly, except > that the > >>contactor became quite hot to touch once it had been on for a > while. (There > >>was no load on the main bus at this stage, the only current > through the > >>contactor was the coil current.) I removed it and replaced it > with a second > >>borrowed contactor, with the same result. I also took the > contactors out of > >>the aircraft, and checked them on the bench, and again, they > became quite > >>hot. Both contactors drew a coil current of about 750 mA. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Clearance/delivery switch At 04:44 PM 12/18/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >John, >The wrap I got from Bob on this same question last week was that this >should be designed into your endurance bus. Example I use is Z19 where >you have the alternate switch for the endurance buss. Since you have >followed good design you already have a minimum of equipment on that >bus. That equipment would include one radio. > >So, switch on e-Bus, wow, you've fired up a whole 5-7 amps and key the >radio. Ready for clearance. > >If you are a real die hard, buy another small fuse bus, a switch and >have a single radio tied to that bus. If you are a real cheapo, buy and >inline fuse and wire one of the radio power lines direct to a battery. >Of course you will always need to turn that on/off. That would be a >great excuse for a 3rd radio. > >RV-7 heavy cleared to taxi. Well considered posting sir. You beat me to it! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cesnna split switch At 02:50 PM 12/18/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Can someone help me find the information I need to wire a split switch batt/ >alt into Z16 Rotax 912. I only have one buss. >Thanks >John S >CH701 rotax John, did the answer to this not come though? A few days ago this exchange was posted to the List . . . At 11:43 AM 12/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: I need help in wiring a cessna style split Master Switch Batt/Alt into Z16 Rotax system. I'm using a single buss. Not sure how to answer this. The S700-2-10 switch shown in Z-16 emulates the functions of a split-rocker switch. I.e. wiring diagrams for both switches is identical. You might check the panel of a Cessna but the switch as-mounted uses the right side rocker as the battery master and the left side as the alternator. A check with your ohmmeter would confirm that the battery side can be ON without having the alternator side ON too . . . ------------------ Are there additional questions about this problem you're trying to solve? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL 60 At 05:19 PM 12/18/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Bob and listers. >Flew today, after repositioning the B lead wire and replacing the ANL 60. >All systems worked normally!!!! >Thanks and Merry Christmas. Very good sir! Seems you've demonstrated the validity of our faith in installing such devices. This one did it's job! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:33 AM PST US From: "John Swanson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cesnna split switch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cesnna split switch > > > At 02:50 PM 12/18/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >>Can someone help me find the information I need to wire a split switch >>batt/ >>alt into Z16 Rotax 912. I only have one buss. >>Thanks >>John S >>CH701 rotax > > John, did the answer to this not come though? > A few days ago this exchange was posted > to the List . . . > > At 11:43 AM 12/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > I need help in wiring a cessna style split Master Switch Batt/Alt > into Z16 Rotax system. I'm using a single buss. > > Not sure how to answer this. The S700-2-10 > switch shown in Z-16 emulates the functions > of a split-rocker switch. I.e. wiring diagrams > for both switches is identical. > > You might check the panel of a Cessna but > the switch as-mounted uses the right side > rocker as the battery master and the left > side as the alternator. A check with your > ohmmeter would confirm that the battery side > can be ON without having the alternator > side ON too . . . > > ------------------ > > Are there additional questions about this > problem you're trying to solve? > > Bob . . . > > > Yes the terminals on my split switch are not the same as s-700-2-10 and i cannot find anything that will tell me how to wire it into Z-16 ? 2 also if i just use 1 buss do i wire it to the hot side of the battery contactor or just wire the master switch hot? Thank you John S CH701 Rotax 912 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cesnna split switch At 11:18 AM 12/19/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:57 AM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cesnna split switch > > >> >> >>At 02:50 PM 12/18/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>Can someone help me find the information I need to wire a split switch batt/ >>>alt into Z16 Rotax 912. I only have one buss. >>>Thanks >>>John S >>>CH701 rotax >> >> John, did the answer to this not come though? >> A few days ago this exchange was posted >> to the List . . . >> >>At 11:43 AM 12/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>I need help in wiring a cessna style split Master Switch Batt/Alt >>into Z16 Rotax system. I'm using a single buss. >> >>Not sure how to answer this. The S700-2-10 >>switch shown in Z-16 emulates the functions >>of a split-rocker switch. I.e. wiring diagrams >>for both switches is identical. >> >>You might check the panel of a Cessna but >>the switch as-mounted uses the right side >>rocker as the battery master and the left >>side as the alternator. A check with your >>ohmmeter would confirm that the battery side >>can be ON without having the alternator >>side ON too . . . >> >>------------------ >> >> Are there additional questions about this >> problem you're trying to solve? >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >>Yes >the terminals on my split switch are not the same as s-700-2-10 and i cannot >find anything that will tell me how to wire it into Z-16 If you're looking for a pictorial substitution of the Cessna master switch, I'll have to have the Cessna switch in hand. If you'll mail yours to me with $2 cash for return shipping, I'll do a "comic book" illustration that will show how to do the substitution. >? 2 also if i just use 1 buss do i wire it to the hot side of the battery >contactor or >just wire the master switch hot? ?? Neither one . . . assuming I understand your words. If you don't want the e-bus, you simply eliminate all of the wiring beginning at the fusible link on the battery contactor, the e-bus alternate feed swtch, the e-bus structure and the normal feedpath diode. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:57 PM PST US From: "nauga@brick.net" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Audio isolation amp questions I've ordered the audio amp PCB from AEC but have a few questions based on reading rev J of the writeup. I'd like to use this board to sum 3-4 mono inouts and two stereo inputs. At the most basic level I understand the function of the board but get a little confused looking at the schematic. On the stereo schematic, page 1.7, both inputs to the left signal amp (LM316) are labelled pin 3. Is the upper pin #2 and the lower #3 or vice versa? Which leads to...... On the diagram where additional inputs are shown (p 1.8.1), am I correct in assuming that an additional stereo input could be added by adding appropriate resistor/capacitor networks (and dummy load as required) into pin 3 of both amps (or pins 3 right and 2 left depending on the answer above)? Or maybe the first question should be: Is rev J the most current version? Thanks in advance, Dave 'Nauga' Hyde ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:53 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio isolation amp questions At 04:37 PM 12/19/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > >I've ordered the audio amp PCB from AEC but have a few questions based on >reading rev J of the writeup. >I'd like to use this board to sum 3-4 mono inouts and two stereo >inputs. At the most basic level I understand >the function of the board but get a little confused looking at the >schematic. On the stereo schematic, page 1.7, >both inputs to the left signal amp (LM316) are labelled pin 3. Is the >upper pin #2 and the lower #3 or vice versa? >Which leads to...... >On the diagram where additional inputs are shown (p 1.8.1), am I correct >in assuming that an additional stereo input >could be added by adding appropriate resistor/capacitor networks (and >dummy load as required) into pin 3 of both amps >(or pins 3 right and 2 left depending on the answer above)? > >Or maybe the first question should be: Is rev J the most current version? No, I've updated one page of the data package to correct the issues you've cited . . . and added a parts layout view for the ECB you purchased (I still need to find them . . . they're around here somewhere!). See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/Audio_Iso_P1p7_K.pdf The whole data package needs some attention with respect to obsolete parts on Digikey but don't have time right now. Your interpretation of what's needed to add more inputs is, I believe, correct. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.