Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:40 AM - Re: LED warning lights (h&jeuropa)
2. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: LED warning lights ()
3. 09:20 AM - Good wire deal . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: LED warning lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 10:56 AM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 11:16 AM - Re: Wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: LED warning lights (Emond)
8. 12:37 PM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Les Goldner)
9. 01:00 PM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Joemotis@aol.com)
10. 01:43 PM - Re: SD-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 04:24 PM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Les Goldner)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: LED warning lights |
Dave,
There is a document on the AeroElectric website that explains how to use LEDs.
Basically you need to have a current limiting resistor in series with the LED.
You'll find that "electronic switches" often have enough leakage current so that
a LED will remain illuminated somewhat even though it should be off. The solution
for that is a resistor across the LED. You should check with the manufacturer
of any device you are using to get their recommendation for how to handle
this situation. For instance if you have a B&C LR3C-14, they want a 510 ohm
resistor between terminal 3 & 5. GRT EIS wants 10K ohm across the warning
light.
I have nothing but LEDs in all my warning and status lights and they work great!
and no filament to burn out and fail!
Jim Butcher
Europa XS
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153982#153982
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Subject: | Re: LED warning lights |
Dave,
What makes you think you would treat LED's differently? Do they have a
defined voltage and a wattage? We'll then you treat them like any other
light. Yes, they generally take 1/3 as much power, but the ideology is
the same. Now, if you have the plutonium jobs, you need to mount them at
least 3 feet from major body parts.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Emond
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 3:46 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights
Hi Bob
I have gone with Z-12 architecture and I am using B&C 60amp alternator
and
their standby SB1B-14.
My Question: What is the recommended way to substitute normal 12 volt
warning lights for LED's??
Merry Christmas
Dave Emond
Message 3
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Subject: | Good wire deal . . . |
hellofadeal on 22AWG high temp Mil-w-81044 wire
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Mil-Specs/Mil-W-81044slash12.jpg
on Ebay at:
http://tinyurl.com/ys34l4
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: LED warning lights |
At 09:02 AM 12/24/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Dave,
>What makes you think you would treat LED's differently? Do they have a
>defined voltage and a wattage? We'll then you treat them like any other
>light. Yes, they generally take 1/3 as much power, but the ideology is
>the same. Now, if you have the plutonium jobs, you need to mount them at
>least 3 feet from major body parts.
Not all that is "LED" is a drop in replacement for
incandescent lamps. An LED's operating voltage is
on the order of 2 volts. Further, it's intensity
is directly controlled by how much CURRENT that's
forced through the device. Here's a generic article
on the innate perversity of the little buggers . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf
Now, there ARE manufacturers of indicating light
FIXTURES that INCLUDE some form of current setting
resistor internal to the fixture. Examples include
devices like this:
http://tinyurl.com/2c3cxw
where one should note the callout, "Orange 12V LED
with holder". This description is a bit misleading
because there's no such thing as a "12V LED". There
are only ASSEMBLIES of an LED and a RESISTOR sized
for optimum operation at some voltage . . . in this
case, 12V.
There are many more LEDs in holders that do not
contain built in resistors like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Mini-LED_Fixture.jpg
. . . which may be used in instllations like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Annunciator_1.jpg
. . . where the resistors necessary to set up proper
operating current for the LEDs are external to the
lamp fixture but part of the overall system design.
Getting back to the B&C alternator controller
products, the output stage of the warning light
system was designed to TURN A WARNING LIGHT ON
in the event power was totally removed from the
controller. To accomplish this bit of electron
herding magic, the following architecture was
crafted:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LV_Led.jpg
Note the resistor from transistor collector to
base INTERNAL to the LR-3. This causes a substantial
amount of what would otherwise be called leakage
current to flow in the transistor's collector lead
when the LR-3 is powered down.
When substituting an LED for the normal incandescent
lamp, the "leakage" current that does not produce
visible light output from an incandescent lamp will
produce substantial light output from an LED. Further,
direct substitution of an LED for the incandescent lamp
is not possible without limiting the current to the
LED as cited above. In this case, I've illustrated the
use of two, 220 ohm resistors wired to (1) limit
current in the ON state and (2) wash out the effects
of 'leakage current' in the OFF state.
There's nothing particularly magic about the selection
of 220 ohms . . . I picked it because it was adequate
to the task and readily available from Radio Shack in
a handy pak-of-5 for a dollar. See:
http://tinyurl.com/2dl6zy
Bottom line is that LED lighting products are NOT
a no-brainer, drop-in replacement for every incandescent
application. One must have a knowledge of the
design goals for the driving circuitry (such as what
that ol' fart in Wichita put in the B&C products 20
years ago!).
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane |
At 10:00 PM 12/23/2007 -0800, you wrote:
Robert,
The low-voltage buss indicator light stays on in my new
plane and I would really appreciate help to understand what to
do about it.
I just finished building a Zenith 701 with a new 100-HP Rotax
912 using your Aeroelectrics Z16 schematic. B&C did not have
the exact Alternator OV detection system shown in the schematic
and sold me their BC207-1 over and low voltage control module that
has a warning light which stays on for under and flashes for
over-voltage. The B&C web site says that the low voltage light goes
on if the Buss voltage is under 12.5V. I wired this module exactly
as shown in Z16.
I presume that you tied the OV/LV warning
light into the main bus as shown in Z16 but
wired the module in accordance with instructions
provided with the device.
I flew the plane for the first time yesterday starting with a
fully charged battery and all seemed well. On the second flight
that day I noticed that the Alternator under voltage (UV) light
came on with the engine idling when the electric fuel pump was on.
The Rotax alternators don't give you much output at
idle or taxi speeds. It's possible if not probable that
the bus voltage was indeed too low to turn out the
LV warning light.
Since I dont need the pump (fuel is gravity fed and the engine has a
mechanical pump) I just turned it off and may have advanced the throttle
beyond its high 2000-RPM idle. The UV light went out as I did this.
I was happy and did my first solo flight in the plane for a half hour
without incident.
Okay. This is pretty much what I would expect.
Today, assuming the battery was fully charged (I did not check it),
I made some adjustments to the Dynon instrument for about 30 minutes
(drawing about 1 to 2-amps), and started the engine for a few more
go-arounds in the pattern. The engine stared immediately so I guess
the battery was charged . However, the low-voltage light came on as
soon as I started-up and would not go off, even after a 10-minutes
warm-up, much of it above idle RPM, with almost nothing electric turned
on. When I taxied back to the hanger and shut down (with the UV
light still on) my battery voltage read 12.3V (this is a new battery).
Get a voltmeter and put it on the bus while you're
observing the Under-Voltage warning light. So far, the
observations you've reported seem pretty common. PM
alternators on the Rotax engines are, first of all,
small. The BIG guy on the 912 is an 18A machine and
then ONLY at cruise RPM. If you ran accessories on your
battery for a time, then it's going to take some time
to replace that energy . . . and it's not going to happen
fast except AFTER engine RPMs are raised to flight ops
levels.
There are probably a lot of things I need to check to isolate the problem
and need advice as to how to go about doing this. What is the most likely
cause? What should I check first and second, third and how do I check them.
Here are some of my (probably dumb) more specific questions:
For the moment, I don't see that your system is
performing in an unexpected manner. It's designed
in limitations for alternator output at low engine
RPM would account for what you've observed.
Is this a definite problem or will the this under voltage light come
on as described above when there are no problems? There are two
fuselinks attached to the Alternator OV/UV module. If one of these
blew or got disconnected would it cause this problem? Since this
is easy to check, I plan to look into this first.
Is it possible that the problem is in the voltage regulator? How do
you check this out and determine if the regulator and not the
alternator is the cause?
Im not certain how to check the alternator or AC voltage. First,
is this a likely source of the problem? Second, if so how do I check
the alternator output? If the alternator is bad I probably will have
to remove the engine and find a real repairman to fix it, so I hope
the problem lies elsewhere.
Any help would really be appreciated.
Let us begin with the reasonable assumption that you
don't have a problem. Put a smart battery charger
on the battery and get it topped off. Then go fly
the airplane. Doesn't your Dynon have a voltage display
on it?
I would expect the Low Volts warning to stay lit
until some time after takeoff. You can tell if the
alternator is working by watching the voltmeter.
At ramp idle and with electro-whizzies turned ON,
bus voltage will be decidedly less than 13.0 volts.
As soon as you power up for takeoff, the bus voltage
should rise . . . not high enough perhaps to turn
out the light, but if the alternator is working at
all, bus voltage should come up with engine RPM.
I'm betting the light will go out after a time sufficient
for the alternator to top off the battery.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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At 09:54 AM 10/4/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>=======
>
> Allow me to suggest that M22759 Tefzel from the popular
> suppliers to the OBAM aircraft industry is the finest
> wire we've used in GA aircraft to date, is widely available
> and reasonably priced. Praying over the Concise Dictionary
> for Wire is probably not a good use of your time beyond
> expanding your intellectual horizons on the universe of
> wire types.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>=======
>
>Is that the stuff that is "Flammable producing copious amount of Dense
>toxic smoke (96%+ density) when it burns rendering it virtually impossible
>for flight crew to see their flight instruments." ?
>
>Not that I would be able to afford/obtain anything better, but I'm
>guessing now that's why my flight instructor told me that if I have an
>electrical fire in-air. that I have a poor chance of making it to the ground.
Your instructor's statement was about as
useful as commenting on your ability to
survive an encounter with your propeller
or live through a loss of a wing. Yes,
there are characteristics of virtually EVERY
material used in the fabrication and operation
of the airplane that pose some hazard to property
and body if containment within the designed
operating envelope is lost. An obvious case
would be gallons of fuel that become a real
nuisance if (1) allowed to get loose and (2)
become ignited. More subtle examples might
include substitution of hardware store
wagon bolts for the Grade 8 devices that
are normally used to hold critical parts
in assembly.
The evolution of failures that progress to the
point of becoming an in-flight fire are the
same for any fire. You need (1) an energy source
to start combustion. You need (2) a material that
will oxidize readily at the temperatures of
open flame and (3) a continuous source of
oxygen to support ongoing combustion.
The BIG variable in this equation is (1)
energy sources that start things off.
Obviously, we want to accomplish due diligence
in craftsmanship . . . select materials and
install/maintain them in a manner that
reduces risk. We do this by putting
circuit breakers and/or fuses in series
with wires that are at-risk for making
smoke. But this doesn't include ALL
wires. I'll cite dozens of discussions over
the years concerning the value of having
current limiters in the battery and starter
feed paths.
A thing that's easy to control is the
oxidizing characteristic of materials used
in the project. Many millions of person-hours
have been invested in the study of materials
suited to the task (adequate performance)
minimizing if not eliminating that material's
ability to propagate a fire.
Tefzel has been used in tens of thousands of
airframes for decades with great service life
and resistance to hazard escalation when
the wires are participants in a malfunction of
of some portion of the electrical system.
Take care lest you fall victim to folks who
seem to relish application of data (perhaps
questionable) taken out of context and
extrapolating it into ideas of hysteria-
provoking significance. Far too many folks
in our culture seem to enjoy this pastime.
Some have refined the practice to professional
status and make quite a good living at it.
>Michael
>RV-7a panel building with tefzel
It's a fine wire. Fly it in confidence and
good health my friend.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: LED warning lights |
Bob
Thanks for answering.
Dave
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights
> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 09:02 AM 12/24/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>
>>Dave,
>>What makes you think you would treat LED's differently? Do they have a
>>defined voltage and a wattage? We'll then you treat them like any other
>>light. Yes, they generally take 1/3 as much power, but the ideology is
>>the same. Now, if you have the plutonium jobs, you need to mount them at
>>least 3 feet from major body parts.
>
> Not all that is "LED" is a drop in replacement for
> incandescent lamps. An LED's operating voltage is
> on the order of 2 volts. Further, it's intensity
> is directly controlled by how much CURRENT that's
> forced through the device. Here's a generic article
> on the innate perversity of the little buggers . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf
>
> Now, there ARE manufacturers of indicating light
> FIXTURES that INCLUDE some form of current setting
> resistor internal to the fixture. Examples include
> devices like this:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2c3cxw
>
> where one should note the callout, "Orange 12V LED
> with holder". This description is a bit misleading
> because there's no such thing as a "12V LED". There
> are only ASSEMBLIES of an LED and a RESISTOR sized
> for optimum operation at some voltage . . . in this
> case, 12V.
>
> There are many more LEDs in holders that do not
> contain built in resistors like this:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Mini-LED_Fixture.jpg
>
> . . . which may be used in instllations like this:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Annunciator_1.jpg
>
> . . . where the resistors necessary to set up proper
> operating current for the LEDs are external to the
> lamp fixture but part of the overall system design.
>
> Getting back to the B&C alternator controller
> products, the output stage of the warning light
> system was designed to TURN A WARNING LIGHT ON
> in the event power was totally removed from the
> controller. To accomplish this bit of electron
> herding magic, the following architecture was
> crafted:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LV_Led.jpg
>
> Note the resistor from transistor collector to
> base INTERNAL to the LR-3. This causes a substantial
> amount of what would otherwise be called leakage
> current to flow in the transistor's collector lead
> when the LR-3 is powered down.
>
> When substituting an LED for the normal incandescent
> lamp, the "leakage" current that does not produce
> visible light output from an incandescent lamp will
> produce substantial light output from an LED. Further,
> direct substitution of an LED for the incandescent lamp
> is not possible without limiting the current to the
> LED as cited above. In this case, I've illustrated the
> use of two, 220 ohm resistors wired to (1) limit
> current in the ON state and (2) wash out the effects
> of 'leakage current' in the OFF state.
>
> There's nothing particularly magic about the selection
> of 220 ohms . . . I picked it because it was adequate
> to the task and readily available from Radio Shack in
> a handy pak-of-5 for a dollar. See:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2dl6zy
>
> Bottom line is that LED lighting products are NOT
> a no-brainer, drop-in replacement for every incandescent
> application. One must have a knowledge of the
> design goals for the driving circuitry (such as what
> that ol' fart in Wichita put in the B&C products 20
> years ago!).
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Low voltage problem in a new plane |
Thanks Bob,
You don't know how much this helped. I read your book and came to one of
your weekend sessions but am still a total novice when it comes to
understanding these systems.
Have a great Christmas,
Les
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 10:55 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane
>
> --> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 10:00 PM 12/23/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> The low-voltage buss indicator light stays on in my new plane
> and I would really appreciate help to understand what to do about it.
>
> I just finished building a Zenith 701 with a new 100-HP Rotax
> 912 using your Aeroelectric's Z16 schematic. B&C did not have
> the exact Alternator OV detection system shown in the
> schematic and sold me their BC207-1 over and low voltage
> control module that has a warning light which stays on for
> under and flashes for over-voltage. The B&C web site says
> that the low voltage light goes on if the Buss voltage is
> under 12.5V. I wired this module exactly as shown in Z16.
>
> I presume that you tied the OV/LV warning
> light into the main bus as shown in Z16 but
> wired the module in accordance with instructions
> provided with the device.
>
>
> I flew the plane for the first time yesterday starting with a
> fully charged battery and all seemed well. On the second
> flight that day I noticed that the Alternator under voltage
> (UV) light came on with the engine idling when the electric
> fuel pump was on.
>
> The Rotax alternators don't give you much output at
> idle or taxi speeds. It's possible if not probable that
> the bus voltage was indeed too low to turn out the
> LV warning light.
>
> Since I don't need the pump (fuel is gravity fed and the
> engine has a mechanical pump) I just turned it off and may
> have advanced the throttle beyond its high 2000-RPM idle. The
> UV light went out as I did this.
> I was happy and did my first solo flight in the plane for a
> half hour without incident.
>
> Okay. This is pretty much what I would expect.
>
> Today, assuming the battery was fully charged (I did not
> check it), I made some adjustments to the Dynon instrument
> for about 30 minutes (drawing about 1 to 2-amps), and started
> the engine for a few more go-arounds in the pattern. The
> engine stared immediately so I guess the battery was charged
> . However, the low-voltage light came on as soon as I
> started-up and would not go off, even after a 10-minutes
> warm-up, much of it above idle RPM, with almost nothing
> electric turned on. When I taxied back to the hanger and shut
> down (with the UV light still on) my battery voltage read
> 12.3V (this is a new battery).
>
> Get a voltmeter and put it on the bus while you're
> observing the Under-Voltage warning light. So far, the
> observations you've reported seem pretty common. PM
> alternators on the Rotax engines are, first of all,
> small. The BIG guy on the 912 is an 18A machine and
> then ONLY at cruise RPM. If you ran accessories on your
> battery for a time, then it's going to take some time
> to replace that energy . . . and it's not going to happen
> fast except AFTER engine RPMs are raised to flight ops
> levels.
>
> There are probably a lot of things I need to check to isolate
> the problem and need advice as to how to go about doing this.
> What is the most likely cause? What should I check first and
> second, third. and how do I check them.
> Here are some of my (probably dumb) more specific questions:
>
> For the moment, I don't see that your system is
> performing in an unexpected manner. It's designed
> in limitations for alternator output at low engine
> RPM would account for what you've observed.
>
> Is this a definite problem or will the this under voltage
> light come on as described above when there are no problems?
> There are two fuselinks attached to the Alternator OV/UV
> module. If one of these blew or got disconnected would it
> cause this problem? Since this is easy to check, I plan to
> look into this first.
>
> Is it possible that the problem is in the voltage regulator?
> How do you check this out and determine if the regulator and
> not the alternator is the cause?
>
> I'm not certain how to check the alternator or AC voltage.
> First, is this a likely source of the problem? Second, if so
> how do I check the alternator output? If the alternator is
> bad I probably will have to remove the engine and find a
> "real" repairman to fix it, so I hope the problem lies elsewhere.
>
> Any help would really be appreciated.
>
> Let us begin with the reasonable assumption that you
> don't have a problem. Put a smart battery charger
> on the battery and get it topped off. Then go fly
> the airplane. Doesn't your Dynon have a voltage display
> on it?
>
> I would expect the Low Volts warning to stay lit
> until some time after takeoff. You can tell if the
> alternator is working by watching the voltmeter.
> At ramp idle and with electro-whizzies turned ON,
> bus voltage will be decidedly less than 13.0 volts.
>
> As soon as you power up for takeoff, the bus voltage
> should rise . . . not high enough perhaps to turn
> out the light, but if the alternator is working at
> all, bus voltage should come up with engine RPM.
>
> I'm betting the light will go out after a time sufficient
> for the alternator to top off the battery.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane |
In a message dated 12/23/2007 10:05:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
lgold@quantum-associates.com writes:
When I taxied back to the hanger and shut down (with the UV light still on)
my battery voltage read 12.3V (this is a new battery).
So, have you checked voltage on the buss with the
engine running? Maybe the device is accurate and you really
are in a UV situation.
Joe Motis
Do not archive.
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 10
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At 09:30 AM 12/24/2007 +1100, you wrote:
><richard@talbots.net.au>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I have a couple of questions regarding your diagram for SD8 alternator self
>excitation (Z-18).
>
>You call out 12 AWG wiring between the dynamo and the regulator but the
>dynamo already has a run of 16AWG attached to it by B&C. Everywhere else in
>the diagram you specify 14 AWG. I assume you wish to minimise voltage drop
>to the regulator? The only issue is that I don't have any 12 AWG wire.
>What would you think is the maximum length of 14AWG that could be used here
>and/or what are your design intentions as far as voltage drop?
The 12AWG was called out for Canard Pushers with
alternator in tail and battery up front. 14AWG is
fine for what you want to do.
>I have ordered a 5A cct breaker for the SD8 previously. Is it OK to
>substitute the 20AWG to the breaker for 18 AWG and use 5A cct breaker rather
>than 2A?
Sure.
>Lastly, does anyone have pictures of their installation particularly the
>mountings of diodes and resistors? The 2k7 resistors supplied to me are in
>ceramic casing due to their power ratings. I am concerned about vibration
>as the legs are very thin.
Yeah . . . resistors are generally designed to
solder to an etched circuit board. I picked
the 3W devices to get a robust package. The
actual power dissipated in these resistors
is quite small.
Put a ring terminal on each end of the resistor
mounted on the capacitor. Cut leads so that the
resistor can be dressed down against the end of
the capacitor and spotted in place with a dab
of E6000 (ShooGoo). See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_SelfExcite_B.jpg
The resistor on the rectifier can be similarly
fitted with terminals. One end can go to the
rectifier's (-) terminal and the other end to
the rectifier mounting screw. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_SelfExcite_A.jpg
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Low voltage problem in a new plane |
Joe,
I will not be able to get to the plane for a week, but you can be certain i
will check the voltage as soon as i can. (I think my Dynon shows voltage
and current). I guess anything higher than 12.5V is Ok but am not certain of
this.
Regards,
Les
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Joemotis@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane
In a message dated 12/23/2007 10:05:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
lgold@quantum-associates.com writes:
When I taxied back to the hanger and shut down (with the UV light still on)
my battery voltage read 12.3V (this is a new battery).
So, have you checked voltage on the buss with the
engine running? Maybe the device is accurate and you really
are in a UV situation.
Joe Motis
Do not archive.
_____
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