---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/24/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:40 AM - Re: LED warning lights (h&jeuropa) 2. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: LED warning lights () 3. 09:20 AM - Good wire deal . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: LED warning lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:56 AM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 11:16 AM - Re: Wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: LED warning lights (Emond) 8. 12:37 PM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Les Goldner) 9. 01:00 PM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Joemotis@aol.com) 10. 01:43 PM - Re: SD-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 04:24 PM - Re: Low voltage problem in a new plane (Les Goldner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights From: "h&jeuropa" Dave, There is a document on the AeroElectric website that explains how to use LEDs. Basically you need to have a current limiting resistor in series with the LED. You'll find that "electronic switches" often have enough leakage current so that a LED will remain illuminated somewhat even though it should be off. The solution for that is a resistor across the LED. You should check with the manufacturer of any device you are using to get their recommendation for how to handle this situation. For instance if you have a B&C LR3C-14, they want a 510 ohm resistor between terminal 3 & 5. GRT EIS wants 10K ohm across the warning light. I have nothing but LEDs in all my warning and status lights and they work great! and no filament to burn out and fail! Jim Butcher Europa XS N241BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153982#153982 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights From: Dave, What makes you think you would treat LED's differently? Do they have a defined voltage and a wattage? We'll then you treat them like any other light. Yes, they generally take 1/3 as much power, but the ideology is the same. Now, if you have the plutonium jobs, you need to mount them at least 3 feet from major body parts. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Emond Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 3:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights Hi Bob I have gone with Z-12 architecture and I am using B&C 60amp alternator and their standby SB1B-14. My Question: What is the recommended way to substitute normal 12 volt warning lights for LED's?? Merry Christmas Dave Emond ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good wire deal . . . hellofadeal on 22AWG high temp Mil-w-81044 wire http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Mil-Specs/Mil-W-81044slash12.jpg on Ebay at: http://tinyurl.com/ys34l4 Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights At 09:02 AM 12/24/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Dave, >What makes you think you would treat LED's differently? Do they have a >defined voltage and a wattage? We'll then you treat them like any other >light. Yes, they generally take 1/3 as much power, but the ideology is >the same. Now, if you have the plutonium jobs, you need to mount them at >least 3 feet from major body parts. Not all that is "LED" is a drop in replacement for incandescent lamps. An LED's operating voltage is on the order of 2 volts. Further, it's intensity is directly controlled by how much CURRENT that's forced through the device. Here's a generic article on the innate perversity of the little buggers . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf Now, there ARE manufacturers of indicating light FIXTURES that INCLUDE some form of current setting resistor internal to the fixture. Examples include devices like this: http://tinyurl.com/2c3cxw where one should note the callout, "Orange 12V LED with holder". This description is a bit misleading because there's no such thing as a "12V LED". There are only ASSEMBLIES of an LED and a RESISTOR sized for optimum operation at some voltage . . . in this case, 12V. There are many more LEDs in holders that do not contain built in resistors like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Mini-LED_Fixture.jpg . . . which may be used in instllations like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Annunciator_1.jpg . . . where the resistors necessary to set up proper operating current for the LEDs are external to the lamp fixture but part of the overall system design. Getting back to the B&C alternator controller products, the output stage of the warning light system was designed to TURN A WARNING LIGHT ON in the event power was totally removed from the controller. To accomplish this bit of electron herding magic, the following architecture was crafted: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LV_Led.jpg Note the resistor from transistor collector to base INTERNAL to the LR-3. This causes a substantial amount of what would otherwise be called leakage current to flow in the transistor's collector lead when the LR-3 is powered down. When substituting an LED for the normal incandescent lamp, the "leakage" current that does not produce visible light output from an incandescent lamp will produce substantial light output from an LED. Further, direct substitution of an LED for the incandescent lamp is not possible without limiting the current to the LED as cited above. In this case, I've illustrated the use of two, 220 ohm resistors wired to (1) limit current in the ON state and (2) wash out the effects of 'leakage current' in the OFF state. There's nothing particularly magic about the selection of 220 ohms . . . I picked it because it was adequate to the task and readily available from Radio Shack in a handy pak-of-5 for a dollar. See: http://tinyurl.com/2dl6zy Bottom line is that LED lighting products are NOT a no-brainer, drop-in replacement for every incandescent application. One must have a knowledge of the design goals for the driving circuitry (such as what that ol' fart in Wichita put in the B&C products 20 years ago!). Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane At 10:00 PM 12/23/2007 -0800, you wrote: Robert, The low-voltage buss indicator light stays on in my new plane and I would really appreciate help to understand what to do about it. I just finished building a Zenith 701 with a new 100-HP Rotax 912 using your Aeroelectrics Z16 schematic. B&C did not have the exact Alternator OV detection system shown in the schematic and sold me their BC207-1 over and low voltage control module that has a warning light which stays on for under and flashes for over-voltage. The B&C web site says that the low voltage light goes on if the Buss voltage is under 12.5V. I wired this module exactly as shown in Z16. I presume that you tied the OV/LV warning light into the main bus as shown in Z16 but wired the module in accordance with instructions provided with the device. I flew the plane for the first time yesterday starting with a fully charged battery and all seemed well. On the second flight that day I noticed that the Alternator under voltage (UV) light came on with the engine idling when the electric fuel pump was on. The Rotax alternators don't give you much output at idle or taxi speeds. It's possible if not probable that the bus voltage was indeed too low to turn out the LV warning light. Since I dont need the pump (fuel is gravity fed and the engine has a mechanical pump) I just turned it off and may have advanced the throttle beyond its high 2000-RPM idle. The UV light went out as I did this. I was happy and did my first solo flight in the plane for a half hour without incident. Okay. This is pretty much what I would expect. Today, assuming the battery was fully charged (I did not check it), I made some adjustments to the Dynon instrument for about 30 minutes (drawing about 1 to 2-amps), and started the engine for a few more go-arounds in the pattern. The engine stared immediately so I guess the battery was charged . However, the low-voltage light came on as soon as I started-up and would not go off, even after a 10-minutes warm-up, much of it above idle RPM, with almost nothing electric turned on. When I taxied back to the hanger and shut down (with the UV light still on) my battery voltage read 12.3V (this is a new battery). Get a voltmeter and put it on the bus while you're observing the Under-Voltage warning light. So far, the observations you've reported seem pretty common. PM alternators on the Rotax engines are, first of all, small. The BIG guy on the 912 is an 18A machine and then ONLY at cruise RPM. If you ran accessories on your battery for a time, then it's going to take some time to replace that energy . . . and it's not going to happen fast except AFTER engine RPMs are raised to flight ops levels. There are probably a lot of things I need to check to isolate the problem and need advice as to how to go about doing this. What is the most likely cause? What should I check first and second, third and how do I check them. Here are some of my (probably dumb) more specific questions: For the moment, I don't see that your system is performing in an unexpected manner. It's designed in limitations for alternator output at low engine RPM would account for what you've observed. Is this a definite problem or will the this under voltage light come on as described above when there are no problems? There are two fuselinks attached to the Alternator OV/UV module. If one of these blew or got disconnected would it cause this problem? Since this is easy to check, I plan to look into this first. Is it possible that the problem is in the voltage regulator? How do you check this out and determine if the regulator and not the alternator is the cause? Im not certain how to check the alternator or AC voltage. First, is this a likely source of the problem? Second, if so how do I check the alternator output? If the alternator is bad I probably will have to remove the engine and find a real repairman to fix it, so I hope the problem lies elsewhere. Any help would really be appreciated. Let us begin with the reasonable assumption that you don't have a problem. Put a smart battery charger on the battery and get it topped off. Then go fly the airplane. Doesn't your Dynon have a voltage display on it? I would expect the Low Volts warning to stay lit until some time after takeoff. You can tell if the alternator is working by watching the voltmeter. At ramp idle and with electro-whizzies turned ON, bus voltage will be decidedly less than 13.0 volts. As soon as you power up for takeoff, the bus voltage should rise . . . not high enough perhaps to turn out the light, but if the alternator is working at all, bus voltage should come up with engine RPM. I'm betting the light will go out after a time sufficient for the alternator to top off the battery. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:20 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire At 09:54 AM 10/4/2007 -0700, you wrote: >======= > > Allow me to suggest that M22759 Tefzel from the popular > suppliers to the OBAM aircraft industry is the finest > wire we've used in GA aircraft to date, is widely available > and reasonably priced. Praying over the Concise Dictionary > for Wire is probably not a good use of your time beyond > expanding your intellectual horizons on the universe of > wire types. > > Bob . . . > > >======= > >Is that the stuff that is "Flammable producing copious amount of Dense >toxic smoke (96%+ density) when it burns rendering it virtually impossible >for flight crew to see their flight instruments." ? > >Not that I would be able to afford/obtain anything better, but I'm >guessing now that's why my flight instructor told me that if I have an >electrical fire in-air. that I have a poor chance of making it to the ground. Your instructor's statement was about as useful as commenting on your ability to survive an encounter with your propeller or live through a loss of a wing. Yes, there are characteristics of virtually EVERY material used in the fabrication and operation of the airplane that pose some hazard to property and body if containment within the designed operating envelope is lost. An obvious case would be gallons of fuel that become a real nuisance if (1) allowed to get loose and (2) become ignited. More subtle examples might include substitution of hardware store wagon bolts for the Grade 8 devices that are normally used to hold critical parts in assembly. The evolution of failures that progress to the point of becoming an in-flight fire are the same for any fire. You need (1) an energy source to start combustion. You need (2) a material that will oxidize readily at the temperatures of open flame and (3) a continuous source of oxygen to support ongoing combustion. The BIG variable in this equation is (1) energy sources that start things off. Obviously, we want to accomplish due diligence in craftsmanship . . . select materials and install/maintain them in a manner that reduces risk. We do this by putting circuit breakers and/or fuses in series with wires that are at-risk for making smoke. But this doesn't include ALL wires. I'll cite dozens of discussions over the years concerning the value of having current limiters in the battery and starter feed paths. A thing that's easy to control is the oxidizing characteristic of materials used in the project. Many millions of person-hours have been invested in the study of materials suited to the task (adequate performance) minimizing if not eliminating that material's ability to propagate a fire. Tefzel has been used in tens of thousands of airframes for decades with great service life and resistance to hazard escalation when the wires are participants in a malfunction of of some portion of the electrical system. Take care lest you fall victim to folks who seem to relish application of data (perhaps questionable) taken out of context and extrapolating it into ideas of hysteria- provoking significance. Far too many folks in our culture seem to enjoy this pastime. Some have refined the practice to professional status and make quite a good living at it. >Michael >RV-7a panel building with tefzel It's a fine wire. Fly it in confidence and good health my friend. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:19 PM PST US From: "Emond" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights Bob Thanks for answering. Dave Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:51 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED warning lights > > > At 09:02 AM 12/24/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >> >>Dave, >>What makes you think you would treat LED's differently? Do they have a >>defined voltage and a wattage? We'll then you treat them like any other >>light. Yes, they generally take 1/3 as much power, but the ideology is >>the same. Now, if you have the plutonium jobs, you need to mount them at >>least 3 feet from major body parts. > > Not all that is "LED" is a drop in replacement for > incandescent lamps. An LED's operating voltage is > on the order of 2 volts. Further, it's intensity > is directly controlled by how much CURRENT that's > forced through the device. Here's a generic article > on the innate perversity of the little buggers . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf > > Now, there ARE manufacturers of indicating light > FIXTURES that INCLUDE some form of current setting > resistor internal to the fixture. Examples include > devices like this: > > http://tinyurl.com/2c3cxw > > where one should note the callout, "Orange 12V LED > with holder". This description is a bit misleading > because there's no such thing as a "12V LED". There > are only ASSEMBLIES of an LED and a RESISTOR sized > for optimum operation at some voltage . . . in this > case, 12V. > > There are many more LEDs in holders that do not > contain built in resistors like this: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Mini-LED_Fixture.jpg > > . . . which may be used in instllations like this: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Annunciator_1.jpg > > . . . where the resistors necessary to set up proper > operating current for the LEDs are external to the > lamp fixture but part of the overall system design. > > Getting back to the B&C alternator controller > products, the output stage of the warning light > system was designed to TURN A WARNING LIGHT ON > in the event power was totally removed from the > controller. To accomplish this bit of electron > herding magic, the following architecture was > crafted: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LV_Led.jpg > > Note the resistor from transistor collector to > base INTERNAL to the LR-3. This causes a substantial > amount of what would otherwise be called leakage > current to flow in the transistor's collector lead > when the LR-3 is powered down. > > When substituting an LED for the normal incandescent > lamp, the "leakage" current that does not produce > visible light output from an incandescent lamp will > produce substantial light output from an LED. Further, > direct substitution of an LED for the incandescent lamp > is not possible without limiting the current to the > LED as cited above. In this case, I've illustrated the > use of two, 220 ohm resistors wired to (1) limit > current in the ON state and (2) wash out the effects > of 'leakage current' in the OFF state. > > There's nothing particularly magic about the selection > of 220 ohms . . . I picked it because it was adequate > to the task and readily available from Radio Shack in > a handy pak-of-5 for a dollar. See: > > http://tinyurl.com/2dl6zy > > Bottom line is that LED lighting products are NOT > a no-brainer, drop-in replacement for every incandescent > application. One must have a knowledge of the > design goals for the driving circuitry (such as what > that ol' fart in Wichita put in the B&C products 20 > years ago!). > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:49 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane Thanks Bob, You don't know how much this helped. I read your book and came to one of your weekend sessions but am still a total novice when it comes to understanding these systems. Have a great Christmas, Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 10:55 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane > > --> > > At 10:00 PM 12/23/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > Robert, > > The low-voltage buss indicator light stays on in my new plane > and I would really appreciate help to understand what to do about it. > > I just finished building a Zenith 701 with a new 100-HP Rotax > 912 using your Aeroelectric's Z16 schematic. B&C did not have > the exact Alternator OV detection system shown in the > schematic and sold me their BC207-1 over and low voltage > control module that has a warning light which stays on for > under and flashes for over-voltage. The B&C web site says > that the low voltage light goes on if the Buss voltage is > under 12.5V. I wired this module exactly as shown in Z16. > > I presume that you tied the OV/LV warning > light into the main bus as shown in Z16 but > wired the module in accordance with instructions > provided with the device. > > > I flew the plane for the first time yesterday starting with a > fully charged battery and all seemed well. On the second > flight that day I noticed that the Alternator under voltage > (UV) light came on with the engine idling when the electric > fuel pump was on. > > The Rotax alternators don't give you much output at > idle or taxi speeds. It's possible if not probable that > the bus voltage was indeed too low to turn out the > LV warning light. > > Since I don't need the pump (fuel is gravity fed and the > engine has a mechanical pump) I just turned it off and may > have advanced the throttle beyond its high 2000-RPM idle. The > UV light went out as I did this. > I was happy and did my first solo flight in the plane for a > half hour without incident. > > Okay. This is pretty much what I would expect. > > Today, assuming the battery was fully charged (I did not > check it), I made some adjustments to the Dynon instrument > for about 30 minutes (drawing about 1 to 2-amps), and started > the engine for a few more go-arounds in the pattern. The > engine stared immediately so I guess the battery was charged > . However, the low-voltage light came on as soon as I > started-up and would not go off, even after a 10-minutes > warm-up, much of it above idle RPM, with almost nothing > electric turned on. When I taxied back to the hanger and shut > down (with the UV light still on) my battery voltage read > 12.3V (this is a new battery). > > Get a voltmeter and put it on the bus while you're > observing the Under-Voltage warning light. So far, the > observations you've reported seem pretty common. PM > alternators on the Rotax engines are, first of all, > small. The BIG guy on the 912 is an 18A machine and > then ONLY at cruise RPM. If you ran accessories on your > battery for a time, then it's going to take some time > to replace that energy . . . and it's not going to happen > fast except AFTER engine RPMs are raised to flight ops > levels. > > There are probably a lot of things I need to check to isolate > the problem and need advice as to how to go about doing this. > What is the most likely cause? What should I check first and > second, third. and how do I check them. > Here are some of my (probably dumb) more specific questions: > > For the moment, I don't see that your system is > performing in an unexpected manner. It's designed > in limitations for alternator output at low engine > RPM would account for what you've observed. > > Is this a definite problem or will the this under voltage > light come on as described above when there are no problems? > There are two fuselinks attached to the Alternator OV/UV > module. If one of these blew or got disconnected would it > cause this problem? Since this is easy to check, I plan to > look into this first. > > Is it possible that the problem is in the voltage regulator? > How do you check this out and determine if the regulator and > not the alternator is the cause? > > I'm not certain how to check the alternator or AC voltage. > First, is this a likely source of the problem? Second, if so > how do I check the alternator output? If the alternator is > bad I probably will have to remove the engine and find a > "real" repairman to fix it, so I hope the problem lies elsewhere. > > Any help would really be appreciated. > > Let us begin with the reasonable assumption that you > don't have a problem. Put a smart battery charger > on the battery and get it topped off. Then go fly > the airplane. Doesn't your Dynon have a voltage display > on it? > > I would expect the Low Volts warning to stay lit > until some time after takeoff. You can tell if the > alternator is working by watching the voltmeter. > At ramp idle and with electro-whizzies turned ON, > bus voltage will be decidedly less than 13.0 volts. > > As soon as you power up for takeoff, the bus voltage > should rise . . . not high enough perhaps to turn > out the light, but if the alternator is working at > all, bus voltage should come up with engine RPM. > > I'm betting the light will go out after a time sufficient > for the alternator to top off the battery. > > Bob . . . > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:22 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane In a message dated 12/23/2007 10:05:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lgold@quantum-associates.com writes: When I taxied back to the hanger and shut down (with the UV light still on) my battery voltage read 12.3V (this is a new battery). So, have you checked voltage on the buss with the engine running? Maybe the device is accurate and you really are in a UV situation. Joe Motis Do not archive. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 At 09:30 AM 12/24/2007 +1100, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob, > >I have a couple of questions regarding your diagram for SD8 alternator self >excitation (Z-18). > >You call out 12 AWG wiring between the dynamo and the regulator but the >dynamo already has a run of 16AWG attached to it by B&C. Everywhere else in >the diagram you specify 14 AWG. I assume you wish to minimise voltage drop >to the regulator? The only issue is that I don't have any 12 AWG wire. >What would you think is the maximum length of 14AWG that could be used here >and/or what are your design intentions as far as voltage drop? The 12AWG was called out for Canard Pushers with alternator in tail and battery up front. 14AWG is fine for what you want to do. >I have ordered a 5A cct breaker for the SD8 previously. Is it OK to >substitute the 20AWG to the breaker for 18 AWG and use 5A cct breaker rather >than 2A? Sure. >Lastly, does anyone have pictures of their installation particularly the >mountings of diodes and resistors? The 2k7 resistors supplied to me are in >ceramic casing due to their power ratings. I am concerned about vibration >as the legs are very thin. Yeah . . . resistors are generally designed to solder to an etched circuit board. I picked the 3W devices to get a robust package. The actual power dissipated in these resistors is quite small. Put a ring terminal on each end of the resistor mounted on the capacitor. Cut leads so that the resistor can be dressed down against the end of the capacitor and spotted in place with a dab of E6000 (ShooGoo). See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_SelfExcite_B.jpg The resistor on the rectifier can be similarly fitted with terminals. One end can go to the rectifier's (-) terminal and the other end to the rectifier mounting screw. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_SelfExcite_A.jpg Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:21 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane Joe, I will not be able to get to the plane for a week, but you can be certain i will check the voltage as soon as i can. (I think my Dynon shows voltage and current). I guess anything higher than 12.5V is Ok but am not certain of this. Regards, Les _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joemotis@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low voltage problem in a new plane In a message dated 12/23/2007 10:05:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lgold@quantum-associates.com writes: When I taxied back to the hanger and shut down (with the UV light still on) my battery voltage read 12.3V (this is a new battery). So, have you checked voltage on the buss with the engine running? Maybe the device is accurate and you really are in a UV situation. Joe Motis Do not archive. _____ See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.