---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/28/07: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:39 AM - Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru () 2. 06:11 AM - Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru (Ken) 3. 07:36 AM - Re: Icom A200-Help! (two radios, internal intercom and pin-out d (enewbold) 4. 07:51 AM - Re: Compass Requirements in Experimental Aircraft (updated) (Tim Olson) 5. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: Icom A200-Help! (two radios, internal intercom and pin-out d (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:38 AM - Re: Compass Requirements in Experimental Aircraft (updated) (Robert Feldtman) 7. 01:53 PM - Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru (Allen Fulmer) 8. 02:45 PM - Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru (mikef) 9. 03:20 PM - Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru (Scott R. Shook) 10. 03:29 PM - Lead Acid Batteries (Sam Hoskins) 11. 04:14 PM - Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru (Sam Hoskins) 12. 04:36 PM - Need a dc-to-dc converter (Jim McBurney) 13. 05:08 PM - Re: Need a dc-to-dc converter (Bob-tcw) 14. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru (Ed Anderson) 15. 06:13 PM - Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. (Dennis & Anne Glaeser) 16. 06:44 PM - Re: Need a dc-to-dc converter (PJ Seipel) 17. 07:53 PM - Backup alternator questions (MR Corder) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:53 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru 12/28/2007 Hello Allen, You posted: "QUOTE: 2) RED - 5A ECU Power. This wire provides power for the ECU, the computer that controls your engine." Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode" for the engine? A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the second flight and put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed, pilot badly injured. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------------- Time: 07:16:04 PM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru Hello Bob, Would you please take a look at the included quote from the newly released installation manual for the Eggenfellner 6 Cylinder Subaru conversion? In a nutshell, he wants a 20 amp circuit separate from the ECU and #1 Fuel Pump. Since my battery busses are located in the rear next to the batteries, should I just run another circuit (20amp fuse) along with the ECU and #1 Fuel Pump circuits? Or what do you suggest? See if my dilemma is justified after reading the following: ==================================================================== QUOTE from Egg. manual: E6-Series Engine Wiring 1) RED - 20A EFI Power. This wire provides power for your Electronic Fuel Injection system. This includes the ignition coils and fuel injector coils. This circuit is critical and must obtain power from the "Essential Equipment Bus". In other words, no matter which battery is supplying power, this circuit must remain powered. Use a 20 Amp resetable, aircraft-quality circuit breaker. Having said all this, it is not strictly necessary for this circuit to be switched on and off along with the ignition switch at all. If the ECU is powered down, then it will never trigger the coils and this circuit will sit idle, consuming no power. However, most builders will prefer to have this circuit "switched" in order to minimize the number of "always hot" circuits in the aircraft. This requires that whatever switch or relay is controlling this circuit, be capable of reliably handling the 20 Amp load. END QUOTE QUOTE: 2) RED - 5A ECU Power. This wire provides power for the ECU, the computer that controls your engine. ....................... BIG SKIP .............................. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:10 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru Power loss to any of these circuits will kill the engine. Limp Home simply means the engine has lost some sensor information and is defaulting to preset nomimal values that will keep the engine running but often with degraded performance. Some engines will run normally in certain limp modes. For example it may continue to run normally after the loss of either the crankshaft or camshaft sensor but it will not restart if shutdown. If the engine is running well, I don't recommend turning the "igniton key" off and back on in flight just because the check engine light is on. OTOH that might fix the problem if it was an intermittant sensor glitch and the engine is running poorly or has quit. Some guys claim "limp home" problems but haven't even installed the check engine light which reduces their credibility a bit. If you look at the automotive wiring, all these wires are generally bundled together with everything else so it is not critical to isolate them. I like to use twisted pairs for things like injectors and ignition coils if convenient though. I suspect that it makes more sense to isolate audio wiring if possible rather than ignition or injector wiring. Ken bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > > 12/28/2007 > > Hello Allen, > > You posted: "QUOTE: 2) RED - 5A ECU Power. This wire provides power > for the ECU, the computer that controls your engine." > > Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode" for the > engine? > > A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the second flight > and put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed, pilot > badly injured. > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather > and understand knowledge." > > ------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! (two radios, internal intercom and pin-out d From: "enewbold" The first link to the diagrams doesn't work. Could you please repost it? I'm installing the A200 and badly need some assistance with the wiring. Thanks very much, Ed in Ohio Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154716#154716 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:55 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Compass Requirements in Experimental Aircraft (updated) Another builder asked me to forward this because he's on vacation, but wanted to join in the thread: "But another very important issue regarding magnetism is that the steel parts in the plane can pick up residual magnetism from permanent magnets and it can be a real problem to sniff out and get rid of with a magnaflux (I think he means degaussing -Tim) tool. I believe a I made a complete posting regarding this in the RV10-list archive. But even the helical steel coil in scat tubing is capable of causing totally eronous compass readings. I had this occur when we re-did the instrument panel in our glastar. I even avoid using magnetic tip tools now that I've seen how difficult it can be to solve the residual magnetism problem. -bob newman Tim Olson wrote: > > So one of the morals to the story is that magnetic base antennas > have no place in an airplane. They won't just screw with your > nearby compass but can screw with your much more sensitive EFIS > magnetometer as well. Any antenna with a magnet should be cut > apart and have it's magnet yanked...if you're going to use it > in the plane. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! (two radios, internal intercom and pin-out d At 07:34 AM 12/28/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >The first link to the diagrams doesn't work. Could you please repost it? >I'm installing the A200 and badly need some assistance with the wiring. > >Thanks very much, >Ed in Ohio I published a suite of suggested wiring information on the A200 at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/Icom-ICA200_Wiring_Diagrams.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/Icom_ICA200_Installation_Manual.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:27 AM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Compass Requirements in Experimental Aircraft (updated) NExt time you start your airplane, watch the compass as you crank. You will be surprised at the way it swings in reaction to the high current loads from the battery to the starter. And that can magnetize local ferrous structures - thus the need to "swing" the compass on a recurrent basis to catch induced "new" errors. Most importantly - use the compass to make sure you are on the right runway as final before take off checklist item.............. a crash a couple years ago due to wrong runway! Secondly - most of us use our GPS to set our DG anyway - not the compass. I've enjoyed the back and forth about the need for a compass in experimentals - My glastar has one, so I am covered. bobf On 12/28/07, Tim Olson wrote: > > > Another builder asked me to forward this because he's on > vacation, but wanted to join in the thread: > > "But another very important issue regarding magnetism is that the steel > parts in the plane can pick up residual magnetism from permanent magnets > and it can be a real problem to sniff out and get rid of with a > magnaflux (I think he means degaussing -Tim) tool. I believe a I made > a complete posting regarding this in the RV10-list archive. But even > the helical steel coil in scat tubing is capable of causing totally > eronous compass readings. I had this occur when we re-did the > instrument panel in our glastar. I even avoid using magnetic tip tools > now that I've seen how difficult it can be to solve the residual > magnetism problem. > > -bob newman > > > Tim Olson wrote: > > > > So one of the morals to the story is that magnetic base antennas > > have no place in an airplane. They won't just screw with your > > nearby compass but can screw with your much more sensitive EFIS > > magnetometer as well. Any antenna with a magnet should be cut > > apart and have it's magnet yanked...if you're going to use it > > in the plane. > > > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:04 PM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru Not sure about a "limp home" mode? Allen >>>Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode" >>>for the engine? >>> >>>A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the >>>second flight and >>>put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed, >>>pilot badly >>>injured. >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:06 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru From: "mikef" Regular automobile engine controller units often have this 'limp home mode'. They detect things that might be detrimental to the car engine, and reduce the RPM output, etc. (high H2O temp, low oil pressure,...) You can pull over and call a tow truck. Obviously this is not a good thing flying. As I understand it, many of the add-on electronic fuel injection systems specifically for cars do not have this 'feature' either, or at least allow you to disable it. The two systems that I am familiar with specifically for flying, the RotaryAviation EC2 and the SDS systems do not have this mode. A reason I choose to go this route in the first place. Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154796#154796 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:13 PM PST US From: "Scott R. Shook" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru If I recall correctly, Jan and Gary have both said that the Egg Subaru does not have a low power limp home mode. They STRONGLY suggest having the Engine (ECU and EFI) as well as the fuel pumps powered by an essential bus that you can isolate. On page 51 of the installation manual, there is a pretty simple diagram showing how the essential bus gets isolated. Two batteries, two continuous duty relays (Main and Aux), and two battery switches. The e-bus power connection is upstream of the CD relay and 'always hot', isolated by a double throw switch downstream. Personally, I am going to be using a combination of Z19RB and the layout from Eggenfellner. However, my electrical is still in design mode. Scott R. Shook RV-7A (Building) N696JS (Reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer Sent: Friday, 28 December, 2007 14:51 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru Not sure about a "limp home" mode? Allen >>>Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode" >>>for the engine? >>> >>>A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the >>>second flight and >>>put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed, >>>pilot badly >>>injured. >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:48 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries FYI - audio cast from today's AvWeb *AVIATION CONSUMER REVEALS "WHY AIRCRAFT BATTERIES DON'T LAST" * Usually it's because the owner or operator let them discharge too deeply or too often, according to Concorde's Skip Koss, who discussed battery technology and longevity with *Aviation Consumer*'s Paul Bertorelli. In its January issue, the magazine features an in-depth comparison of aircraft batteries, with some surprising results. Click here to listen. *(11.8 MB, 12:55)* *Sam * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:40 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru This discussion is interesting to me, also. I will be installing the upcoming RWA EC3 controller (first production of new rev to be fiirst released in late February). This controller features redundancy by building two ignition/EFI controllers intone box. I have added a second high pressure pump for additional redundancy. I am working on Z-19RB, and as I was designing the switching for any combination of Main/Endurance & A/B controller & main/backup pump, the installation got pretty cumbersome. There must be a simpler way to go. Sam Hoskins On Dec 28, 2007 5:18 PM, Scott R. Shook wrote: > > If I recall correctly, Jan and Gary have both said that the Egg Subaru > does > not have a low power limp home mode. > > They STRONGLY suggest having the Engine (ECU and EFI) as well as the fuel > pumps powered by an essential bus that you can isolate. On page 51 of the > installation manual, there is a pretty simple diagram showing how the > essential bus gets isolated. Two batteries, two continuous duty relays > (Main > and Aux), and two battery switches. The e-bus power connection is > upstream > of the CD relay and 'always hot', isolated by a double throw switch > downstream. > > Personally, I am going to be using a combination of Z19RB and the layout > from Eggenfellner. However, my electrical is still in design mode. > > Scott R. Shook > RV-7A (Building) > N696JS (Reserved) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen > Fulmer > Sent: Friday, 28 December, 2007 14:51 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors > on > Egg. Subaru > > > > Not sure about a "limp home" mode? > > Allen > > >>>Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode" > >>>for the engine? > >>> > >>>A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the > >>>second flight and > >>>put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed, > >>>pilot badly > >>>injured. > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > -- Sam Hoskins www.MistakeProofing.Net www.MistakeProofing.net/blog/ 618-967-0016 ph. 312-212-4086 fax ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:15 PM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a dc-to-dc converter Hi, List, I'm building a Zenith CH-801 and am planning on using a DeltaHawk diesel engine. DeltaHawk uses a 24v starter but the flap and trim motors and the strobes require a 14v system. Does anyone know where I can get a 24 to 12v converter that can provide 5A continuous and 10A intermittent? I'm averse to using a tap on the battery string (2 batteries of 12v each) as I've had really bad experience doing that without an equalizer, and those things are really heavy. Suggestions are appreciated! Thanks Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel 90% done 90% left ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:09 PM PST US From: "Bob-tcw" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a dc-to-dc converter Jim, Although not a general purpose DC-DC converter, but for the common trim systems such as the Ray-Allen servo based systems the Safety-Trim intelligent controller takes care of this requirement of operating from 28 Volts but driving servos only rated for 14 volts. The Safety-Trim servo controller as an input voltage range of 10-30 volts and has a maximum output voltage of 14 volts. We've had a few customers chose our product with same application of the DeltaHawk diesel and Ray allen trim servos. -Best regards, Bob Newman TCW Technologies www.tcwtech.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McBurney" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a dc-to-dc converter > > > Hi, List, > > I'm building a Zenith CH-801 and am planning on using a DeltaHawk diesel > engine. DeltaHawk uses a 24v starter but the flap and trim motors and the > strobes require a 14v system. Does anyone know where I can get a 24 to > 12v > converter that can provide 5A continuous and 10A intermittent? I'm averse > to using a tap on the battery string (2 batteries of 12v each) as I've had > really bad experience doing that without an equalizer, and those things > are > really heavy. Suggestions are appreciated! > > Thanks > > Jim > CH-801 > DeltaHawk diesel > 90% done 90% left > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:25 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru Mike, I have flow with the Real World Concepts EC2 Fuel Injection controller for close to 5 years now. You are correct it does not have any features which would automatically shut down the engine or reduce power- such as the over temp protection shut down in some automobile CPUs. It does have two completely separate and redundant computing systems (Controller A and Controller B) which can be selected by flipping a switch. So that means you could play with the fuel map setting of one controller and should you manage to stop the engine (hard to do but certainly possible) , you can simply switch to the other controller (which hopefully you have left with a runnable fuel map {:>)). There have been some experimenters with alternative engines early on which found out about the automobile CPU "protective" features at a most awkward time - but, I believe most are now aware of that potential hazard. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "mikef" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru > > Regular automobile engine controller units often have this 'limp home > mode'. They detect things that might be detrimental to the car engine, and > reduce the RPM output, etc. (high H2O temp, low oil pressure,...) You can > pull over and call a tow truck. > > Obviously this is not a good thing flying. As I understand it, many of the > add-on electronic fuel injection systems specifically for cars do not have > this 'feature' either, or at least allow you to disable it. The two > systems that I am familiar with specifically for flying, the > RotaryAviation EC2 and the SDS systems do not have this mode. A reason I > choose to go this route in the first place. > > Mike > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154796#154796 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:19 PM PST US From: "Dennis & Anne Glaeser" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. My Egg-Subaru electrical system has a hot bus for each battery, and each one powers the ECU, Ignition, and a fuel pump (dual parallel systems). I uploaded my engine system diagram to the photos section of the Eggenfeller Yahoo List (Dennis Glaeser - RV-7A - the one showing a battery box). I'm not a big fan of the 4P3T switch shown in the installation manual (expensive and SPOF). Dennis Glaeser ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:41 PM PST US From: PJ Seipel Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a dc-to-dc converter Take a look at http://www.astroncorp.com/dcdc.shtml and http://www.radiooutfitter.com/n241224/astron/p124057.html These were recommended to me when I was looking at Deltahawk. PJ Seipel RV-10 #40032 do not archive Jim McBurney wrote: > > Hi, List, > > I'm building a Zenith CH-801 and am planning on using a DeltaHawk diesel > engine. DeltaHawk uses a 24v starter but the flap and trim motors and the > strobes require a 14v system. Does anyone know where I can get a 24 to 12v > converter that can provide 5A continuous and 10A intermittent? I'm averse > to using a tap on the battery string (2 batteries of 12v each) as I've had > really bad experience doing that without an equalizer, and those things are > really heavy. Suggestions are appreciated! > > Thanks > > Jim > CH-801 > DeltaHawk diesel > 90% done 90% left > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:19 PM PST US From: MR Corder Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup alternator questions I have the B&C 8 amp backup alternator along with a main Plane Power 60 amp unit. When I have them both on line, it seems like the voltage jumps around a lot. Suspect the two voltage regulators are "fighting" each other as voltage is stable with either unit running by itself. Is this a problem ? I'd like to leave the backup unit offline and only bring it online when the primary unit goes away. However, since both warning lights are taken to Ground to light up, I can't figure out a circuit which would allow this mode of operation. Any suggestions ? -- Regards, m ____________________________ mike.corder@sbcglobal.net Cell 831-239-0915 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.