Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Garmin 296 Audio Output (DaveG601XL)
2. 05:47 AM - Mic noise ()
3. 06:33 AM - Re: Garmin 296 Audio Output (Allen Fulmer)
4. 06:47 AM - Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Eric M. Jones)
5. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Panel Labeling ()
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Electrical System Reliability (and other ???) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:56 AM - Re: Garmin 296 Audio Output (Dale Ensing)
8. 09:17 AM - Re: Z-20 Adaptation (ianwilson2)
9. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:25 AM - Re: Garmin 296 Audio Output (Vernon Little)
11. 11:25 AM - Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Eric M. Jones)
12. 11:55 AM - Re: Electrical System Reliability (and other ???) (FLAGSTONE)
13. 12:59 PM - Question about Annunciating Lights (Scott R. Shook)
14. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Z-20 Adaptation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 02:53 PM - Re: Question about Annunciating Lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Panel Labeling (Brett Ferrell)
17. 03:28 PM - Re: Electrical System Reliability (and other ???) (Ken)
18. 03:53 PM - Re: Question about Annunciating Lights (B Tomm)
19. 03:53 PM - Re: Exploding Capacitors? (darinh)
20. 05:00 PM - Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Eric M. Jones)
21. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Gilles Thesee)
22. 06:10 PM - Re: Exploding Capacitors? (darinh)
23. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 06:42 PM - Re: Question about Annunciating Lights (Bret Smith)
25. 06:44 PM - Re: Electrical System Reliability (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 07:09 PM - Re: Exploding Capacitors? (dilandl)
28. 07:49 PM - Re: Shutdown reminder for switched loads on the battery bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Charlie England)
30. 08:20 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Daniel Langhout)
31. 08:24 PM - Music Input (Emrath)
32. 08:26 PM - Rebuilding Gyros (Emrath)
33. 08:52 PM - Question about Annunciating Lights (Ralph Hoover)
34. 09:25 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
35. 09:25 PM - Re: Question about Annunciating Lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
36. 09:25 PM - Re: Re: Exploding Capacitors? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Garmin 296 Audio Output |
I am installing a Garmin 296 GPS into my Zodiac 601XL build. I am also installing
a PS Engineering PM501 intercom. I am pretty much up to snuff on the NMEA
data output wires that will talk to my Dynon and Digitrack autopilot. I also
see an "alarm" wire and audio positive and negative wires and they have me a
bit confused.
The Garmin manual says the alarm wire is only for marine applications, but says
no more about it's functionality. The manual also says the audio wires are only
for automotive speaker use and are not for an intercom system.
I am guessing that when wearing headsets combined with the ambient engine noise,
I will not be able to hear the Garmin's built-in beeper when course, terrain
or airspace alerts pop up. How have others connected these GPS alerts into their
audio systems??
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156516#156516
Message 2
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1/7/2008
Hello Steve, These folks would be happy to sell you one:
http://www.headsetsinc.com/options_and_access.htm
Also the Aircraft Spruce catalog has many listed:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
-----------------------------------------------
Time: 08:58:34 AM PST US
From: "Steve" <sham@indy.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Mic noise
I am in need of two mics for a DRE 6000 and a David Clark headset. I
have a mic hungry puppy. Does anyone know a source for headset mics??
Thanks Steve Ham
Message 3
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| Subject: | Garmin 296 Audio Output |
I have pasted the contents of another email I saved from Dave Saylor dated
11/06/07 I saved that might help.
Allen
--------------------------------------------------------------------
We have the audio working as desired from the 496. It turned out to be a
very simple solution.
To recount:
It was my intention to have terrain warnings from a Garmin 496 wired to the
unswitched audio input of a Garmin GMA340 audio panel.
Garmin sells a "power/data cable" that provides wiring for audio output
along with serial data and 12VDC to power the GPS. The audio wires are
labeled "voice+" and "voice-". Garmin also sells a similar cable that
terminates in a speaker housed adjacent to a 12V plug for using in the car.
I took the speaker housing apart and confirmed that the voice+/- wires
connected to the speaker.
When we ran the voice wires into the audio panel, we got nothing. We tried
several approaches, including running the audio into DME (nothing), ADF
(nothing), though an audio transformer, though a potentiometer and through
various simple resistors (zip, zero, nada). Just dead air from the 496.
Finally, Jacek Kesy, who works at AirCrafters, discovered that when the
"voice-" wire from the GPS was disconnected from the audio panel, everything
worked perfectly. Audio must be grounding somewhere else, and the wire that
certainly seems like audio ground is actually "audio disable". Once the
voice- wire is grounded, you have to turn the 496 off and back on to get any
audio.
Here is how the final scenario is wired:
1/8" audio jack is wired to Music 1 on the audio panel. It outputs warnings
and XM audio. Music 1 is muted by intercom activity or incoming
transmissions.
As an aside, I also have a 1/8" audio jack wired through a toggle so I can
select either XM or some other source for Music 1. But that has no bearing
on the 496 audio problem.
>From the 496 power/data cable, the "voice+" wire ties to a 220 ohm resistor,
then to the unswitched audio input at the audio panel. The only other
unswitched audio input is from the EFIS. It also goes through a 220 ohm
resistor. Perhaps someone else can tell us what exactly the 220 ohm
resistors do--my understanding is that they balance the two audio signals.
I don't know what would happen without them.
So now, even though the warnings coming from Music 1 are at time muted, I
always get the EFIS warnings and the terrain warnings, as long as the audio
panel is on.
There are a bunch of setup parameters for the 496 as well on the Sound page
of the main menu. Those are all pretty intuitive and seem to mostly effect
the audio jack, not the output to the power/data cable.
So that's it. Problem solved basically by trial and error, but it's working
the way I want it to now.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>>>DaveG601XL
>>>Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 7:45 AM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 296 Audio Output
>>>
>>>
>>><david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>>
>>>I am installing a Garmin 296 GPS into my Zodiac 601XL build.
>>> I am also installing a PS Engineering PM501 intercom. I am
>>>pretty much up to snuff on the NMEA data output wires that
>>>will talk to my Dynon and Digitrack autopilot. I also see
>>>an "alarm" wire and audio positive and negative wires and
>>>they have me a bit confused.
>>>
>>>The Garmin manual says the alarm wire is only for marine
>>>applications, but says no more about it's functionality.
>>>The manual also says the audio wires are only for automotive
>>>speaker use and are not for an intercom system.
>>>
>>>I am guessing that when wearing headsets combined with the
>>>ambient engine noise, I will not be able to hear the
>>>Garmin's built-in beeper when course, terrain or airspace
>>>alerts pop up. How have others connected these GPS alerts
>>>into their audio systems??
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>--------
>>>David Gallagher
>>>601 XL, tail and wings completed,
>>>fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156516#156516
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
KABOOOM!!!!
Come on Bob.
. . . a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right . . .
-Thomas Paine 1776-
The question was about using a 22,000 microfarad, 25 V capacitor. The point has
been raised that there is every reason to move this up to a 22,000 microfarad
100V or more and avoid early failures caused by load dump transients, and various
insults.
25V does not provide enough headroom in this application. There's zero reason to
skimp.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156532#156532
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Labeling |
Al,
Fantastic, thanks for posting. It is rather difficult to find good
custom aircraft shops in the NE.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AlRice
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Panel Labeling
Check out Aircraft Engravers at www.engravers.net.
--------
Al Rice
Skybolt 260
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156060#156060
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Reliability (and other ???) |
At 02:23 AM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Bob:
>
>I'm in the beginning phase of designing my electrical system. The
>following are the particulars of my setup:
>
> Aircraft Mission - IFR (IMC is a likelihood), night and remote
> backcountry operations.
> Engine - Lycoming IO-540.
> Glass Panel - One Dynon D180 EFIS/EMS and one Dynon D120 EFIS
> both with internal battery backup. They are supposed to be able
> to cross-display via Dynon's D-SAB.
> Avionics - Garmin GMA-340 Audio, SL30 Nav/Com, SL40 Com, GTX 327
> Transponder, GPS 496, Dynon AOA/Heated pitot tube. All of
> the avionics were pre-wired by Approach/FastStack using their connecting
> hub. The GPS 496 has internal batteries as well as an
> external power source. I also have a ICOM IC-A23 handheld Com/VOR that I
> always carry with me.
> Electronic Ignition - LASAR controller with dual Slick mags. One
> mag is equiped with a sensor for the LASAR system and the
> other is impulse coupled. Both are inop while the electronic system is
> operating. The system has the "Bush Kit" which is
> supposed to default to operating on the mags alone in the event of
> electrical or software failure. The controller is supposed
> to operate with voltages down to 5.5volts.
> Vacuum System - None
> Alternator/Regulator - B&C L-60 Alternator and B&C LR3C-14
> Regulator.
> Fuel Injection - Bendix style fuel injection with Airfllow
> Performance auxiliary fuel pump.
> Electrical Controls - Three axis RAC trim system, Electric
> flaps, Electric cowl flaps.
> Lighting - Dual Strobe lights, Nav Lights, Dual taxi lights, Dual
> landing lights, Dual "Type C4A" military style cockpit lights.
> Autopilot - TruTrak Digiflight II two-axis autopilot.
> Battery(s) - My intent is to use the Odyssey series battery(s).
>
>Before I go any further with the design I need to make the following
>decisions:
>
> 1. Single or Dual Alternator. If dual alternator, size of second
> alternator and type of second regulator.
> 2. Single or Dual Battery. If dual battery, isolated systems or
> combined and capacity of each battery.
> 3. Glass Panel alone or Glass Panel with back-up "Steam
> Gauges", Airspeed, Altimeter, Turn Coordinator, Compass.
>
>I have read through Sections 2, 3 and 17 of your book several times as
>well as the wiring diagrams and various articles on your site. These
>offer a great amount of information and advice which I'm sure would allow
>a knowledgeable person to make the proper decisions. However, my
>knowledge, experience and confidence are limited so I would like to
>confirm with you my interpretation of the information and get your
>confirmation/critique thereof. Here goes:
>
> The first is that designing for complete battery failure i.e. a
> dead short that would take down the whole system in
> NOT necessary. This seems to be covered well on page
> 17-11 in a paragraph that contains the following, "Last, the
> antiquated concerns for battery "failure"....RG battery
> reliability....drives the probability of gross battery failure to
> zero." However, I would like to confirm that the Odyssey
> batteries would fall under the same class as "RG battery reliability" and
> that I would NOT need to design for battery failure given my
> intended mission and battery selection. Would you concur with that??
>
> Regarding decision number #1: Your comments on several pages of
> sec. 17 clearly indicate your preference for
> dual alternators. My setup in heavily dependent on
> electrical systems for normal operations. Based on that and on
> your comments, I would opt for a second alternator
> using B&C SD-20 Alternator and B&C SB1B-14 Standby Controller. Given
> the need of a second alternator, the weight penalty between the
> 20amp and 8 amp models is 3 pounds. It would seem
> the 20amp would provide near normal operations for as
> long as it works should the primary alternator fail. Would you concur
> with that??
>
Is it your design goal to have 100% capability of
the panel with one alternator out . . . or sufficient
snort to comfortably complete the mission?
> Regarding decision number #2: This has several sub-parts.
>
> A - Your comments in sec. 17 seem to indicate that with a
> dual alternator setup as I opted for in #1, dual batteries
> with isolated systems are NOT necessary as a design point
> for in-flight electrical failure. I would like to avoid the
> dual battery contactors and the crossfeed
> contactor by using a single battery source. Would you concur with
> that?? If it makes a difference, the battery(s),
> regulators and LASAR controller will be located on the cabin side of the
> firewall.
>
>
> B - One of the mission requirements is backcountry
> operations. Given that, one my design points was the ability to
> start the plane with a completely dead primary (cranking)
> battery, say as a result of leaving the master on.
Why would you even consider that? You're obviously very
concerned about NOT having necessary things operate 100%
of the time but stacking lots of hardware on top of the
probability that a pilot walks away from the airplane leaving
things turned on is running off in the wrong direction.
The most reliable system is that which has the fewest parts.
The most reliable flight system has a minimum of options for
the pilot consider when something is not working. A simple
flashing low voltage warning light (comes with the LR3) tells
you that a master switch is ON after engine shutdown . . .
so that scenario is unworthy of consideration . . .
> That is the reason I opted for the LASAR system with the
> bush kit. However, given my configuration I would need some sort of
> standby electrical power. To that end I am
> considering two options:
>
> Option 1: Design in a permanent Non-Cranking (Aux)
> battery and bus as shown in fig. Z-35. to power the Fuel
> Pump, LASAR system, and one EFIS/EMS.
>
> Option 2: Design in an external power plug for the
> fuel pump ONLY and carry a small battery with me
> during backcountry operations
> ONLY. With my configuration I do not need the EFIS/EMS or the LASAR
> system to function to just start the
> engine. The only thing I really need is a few seconds of fuel pump
> operation to pressurize the system in order to hand
> prop the engine. If I was backcountry I would have 12 volts of battery
> power someplace anyway.
>
> My choice would be for Option 2. Would you concur
> with that???
>
> C - Odyssey offers several batteries ranging in
> capacity form 14 to 28AH, in cranking power from 535 to
> 925CCA and in weight from 12.0 to 26.0 lbs. In
> the unlikely event of the same flight failure of both
> alternator/regulator systems opted for in #1, and
> according to the method used on page 17-6, any of the batteries would
> satisfy the requirements of my E-bus. However, I am
> not so sure about starting power for normal operations. My engine is
> fuel injected and high compression. My space
> limitations would preclude me from installing the 28AH/925CCA/26lb
> battery. That would leave two preferred
> batteries; The PC545 (14AH/545CCA/12.6lbs) and the PC680
> (17AH/680CCA/15.4lbs). If necessary I could install
> two of either the PC545 or PC680 batteries wired together to act as
> one. My first preference would be a single PC680,
> second would be two of the PC545's and lastly two of the PC680's.
>
> Here I would simply ask for your recommendation as to
> which way to go??.
>
> Regarding decision #3: Well this started out to be a long and
> involved question but as I was typing out my reasoning
> and explanation, I made the decision to opt for the back up
> gauges. I intend to file IFR for trips and that means at some point
> I will probably be in IMC and there is just no way that I am
> going into IMC without them. Thanks for helping me get that
> one out of the way. Its been bothering me for months.
>
>There are a couple of other questions I have:
>
> On page 17-10 you say, "When you trade generators for
> alternators, loss of a battery contactor may well precipitate total loss
> of electrical power. Alternators, don't run well without a
> battery". Yet when I look at Figs 17-2,3,4,5,6, and 8, all of them place
> the Alt field switches on the main bus with the contactor in the path to
> the battery. If I understand your statement correctly, it seems that if
> you loose a single contactor in any except fig 17-5 & 6, Dual Batteries,
> you would lose all charging systems. Shouldn't there be a pathway to
> energize the Alt fields thru the E bus in case of a contactor
> failure. Is my reasoning correct?? It looks like Fig Z-13/20 does that
> for the Aux Alt only and Fig Z-12 doesn't for either Alt. Is that
> correct?? Wouldn't you want to be able to energize both Alt systems from
> the E-bus in case of contactor failure with a single battery??? Or
> alternatively, what about two contactors for a single battery??? They're
> cheap enough??? Would that work???
The z-figures are crafted to offer comfortable continued
flight to intended destination while having suffered the
failure of one piece of the DC power generation and distribution
system.
>
> I really don't understand what P-leads are or the difference
> between P-mags and E-mags. What do I have with the LASAR system???
A lot of unnecessarily complex and expensive hardware.
> I looked but couldn't find any articles to explain mag operation or
> what they are. Could you point be to the proper article???
I'm not sure it would benefit you to delve into the technical
merits of the various ignition systems at this point. You're
getting wrapped around too many axles at the same time.
Unless you're anticipating replacing the Lasar system with
something else based on new knowledge, the I'll suggest you
go with what you have.
If I were building your airplane, I'd figure out a way to
make Z-13 work. The Lasar system doesn't need extra-ordinarily
reliable electrical energy . . . that's why it was designed
that way . . . which is true of the PMag as well. But Z-14
can and does offer the ultimate in overall system reliability
and versatility for keeping plenty of stuff on the panel
working in spite of one and in some cases two failures of
equipment on one tank full of fuel.
It's my recommendation that you go with Z-14 as published
and start filling out your load analysis forms for all the
busses. Go to my website and search on "load analysis". Then
print out copies of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/LoadAnalysis.pdf
for each of the four buses and decide what items will
be fed from each bus.
I presume that you presently fly the same kinds of missions
in a type certificated aircraft. Know that ANY of the choices
offered in the Z-figures will offer you a "step up" from
that which is already flown in hundreds of thousands of
spam-cans for nearly 100 years. Electrical system failures
as the precipitating event in a disaster are an exceedingly
tiny portion of root cause.
Don't spend a lot of time worrying this. Your craftsmanship
is going to have a stronger influence on success than selection
of parts and/or architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 296 Audio Output |
David Gallagher,
I didn't think the 296 provides audio when in Aviation mode. At least mine
did not...to my knowledge. I am using the same power/data cord for my 396 so
perhaps the audio wires are for other xx6's.
Dale Ensing
-list@matronics.com>.
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 296 Audio Output
> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>
> I am installing a Garmin 296 GPS into my Zodiac 601XL build. I am also
> installing a PS Engineering PM501 intercom. I am pretty much up to snuff
> on the NMEA data output wires that will talk to my Dynon and Digitrack
> autopilot. I also see an "alarm" wire and audio positive and negative
> wires and they have me a bit confused.
>
> The Garmin manual says the alarm wire is only for marine applications, but
> says no more about it's functionality. The manual also says the audio
> wires are only for automotive speaker use and are not for an intercom
> system.
>
> I am guessing that when wearing headsets combined with the ambient engine
> noise, I will not be able to hear the Garmin's built-in beeper when
> course, terrain or airspace alerts pop up. How have others connected
> these GPS alerts into their audio systems??
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> 601 XL, tail and wings completed,
> fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156516#156516
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Z-20 Adaptation |
Thanks Bob. On the battery front, my question was aimed more at what electrical
stuff would I be safe putting on the engine side of the firewall, rather than
the battery itself.
Could you also please clarify for me exactly what part you had in mind for the
crowbar OV module connected to the DC master switch in Z-20?
Many thanks.
Ian Wilson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156548#156548
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
At 06:43 AM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>KABOOOM!!!!
>
>Come on Bob.
>
>. . . a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
> appearance of being right . . .
>
> -Thomas Paine 1776-
>
>The question was about using a 22,000 microfarad, 25 V capacitor. The
>point has been raised that there is every reason to move this up to a
>22,000 microfarad 100V or more and avoid early failures caused by load
>dump transients, and various insults.
>
>25V does not provide enough headroom in this application. There's zero
>reason to skimp.
Really? Isn't that the reason we put ov
protection in place that trips out at 16+
volts? The capacitor is no more vulnerable
than say a radio.
In 20 years of writing for the OBAM aircraft
community, I've had one guy suffer a capacitor
failure on a Rotax powered Kitfox. He wired it
in backwards. The capacitor didn't blow up, it
opened the pressure relief valve in the top
and oozed ugly gooey stuff.
Are you telling us that the makers of these
devices are failing to tell us about the
hazards of misapplication or mistreatment
of their product? The battery guys put pressure
relief valves in their products too. It is
reasonable to suppose there's a well considered
reason for that?
Yes, I've blown up an aluminum electrolytic
but it too was in backwards and that was in 1956.
Let us take care lest we elevate an exceedingly
remote hazard to levels unworthy of learned
discussion.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Garmin 296 Audio Output |
I've played around with this in aviation mode. I connected one of the audio
output signals into my audio system, and obtained voice alerts.
Unfortunately, the only alerts are for power fail and when you set the
volume. Nothing else. I'm hoping Garmin will add aviation voice alerts in
future... But Garmin is not big on feature enhancements. It may have
something to do with liability.
As for the alarm output, I've played around but cannot get it operating in
aviation mode.
BTW, I tied the audio output Voice+ into the headset bus of a Sigtronics
SPA-400 intercom using a Vx Aviation AMX-1A audio mixer(www.vx-aviation.com)
Alternatively, you could do the same with a 510 ohm resistor.
Vern Little
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DaveG601XL
Sent: January 7, 2008 5:45 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 296 Audio Output
--> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
I am installing a Garmin 296 GPS into my Zodiac 601XL build. I am also
installing a PS Engineering PM501 intercom. I am pretty much up to snuff on
the NMEA data output wires that will talk to my Dynon and Digitrack
autopilot. I also see an "alarm" wire and audio positive and negative wires
and they have me a bit confused.
The Garmin manual says the alarm wire is only for marine applications, but
says no more about it's functionality. The manual also says the audio wires
are only for automotive speaker use and are not for an intercom system.
I am guessing that when wearing headsets combined with the ambient engine
noise, I will not be able to hear the Garmin's built-in beeper when course,
terrain or airspace alerts pop up. How have others connected these GPS
alerts into their audio systems??
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156516#156516
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
. . . a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right . . .
-Thomas Paine 1776-
> Really? Isn't that the reason we put ov protection in place that trips out at
16+ volts?
Any decent overvoltage module does not trip out in time to prevent OV damage to
the capacitor during load dump. Let's not depend on the OV protection to save
out poorly specified capacitor. Really Bob....!
> The capacitor is no more vulnerable than say a radio.
A radio has some sophisticated voltage clamping on its input. So you are wrong.
> In 20 years of writing for the OBAM aircraft community, I've had one guy suffer
a capacitor failure on a Rotax powered Kitfox. He wired it
> in backwards. The capacitor didn't blow up, it opened the pressure relief valve
in the top and oozed ugly gooey stuff.
In my 40 years of writing about and studying electronics, I've seen hundreds of
capacitor failures. Most of the big electrolytics failed internally by having
greatly reduced capacitance or excessive resistive loads or a variety of other
problems that did not involve explosions. Really Bob....!
> Are you telling us that the makers of these devices are failing to tell us about
the hazards of misapplication or mistreatment of their product? The battery
guys put pressure relief valves in their products too. It is reasonable to suppose
there's a well considered reason for that?
What are you ranting about? I have no clue.
> Yes, I've blown up an aluminum electrolytic but it too was in backwards and that
was in 1956. Let us take care lest we elevate an exceedingly remote hazard
to levels unworthy of learned discussion.
> Bob . . .
What is you problem, Bob? Why not just say..."Yes, that is probably right." Your
version of a "learned discussion" eludes me. Backing up and taking another think
at an issue would not decrease my respect for you.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156567#156567
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Reliability (and other ???) |
Bob:
You're right. Ignorance is bliss. Z-14 it is.
Thanks.
Mark
Message 13
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| Subject: | Question about Annunciating Lights |
I have a really great idea for the panel of our RV and I wanted to solicit
some help from the liters out there. We are using the dual screen AFS-3500
for our panel and I wanted to create an annunciator panel to sit next to the
AFS in a vertical config. Here is my idea.
Picture if you will a dual screen AFS setup in an RV-7A panel with a radio
stack just slightly right of the middle. Just to the left of the radio
stack and just to the right of the pilot side AFS is an annunciator panel
with the following dimensions: 7" tall and 1.5" wide. There are
approximately 12 individual annunciated items (pick what you want). The
visible part of the annunciator panel itself is a reverse engraved acrylic
installed in the panel.
Here is the problem:
I am looking for a method or product to "cage" the LED lighting for each
individual annunciator. So when one lights up, you do not get bleed over
light into an annunciator above or below the one that is lit.
I have the wiring, connectors and case already laid out on paper and that is
not my problem and this is not the issue; my only stumbling block is a way
to 'cage' the lights behind the acrylic panel that is visible.
Does anyone out there know of a company or have an idea of a product to use
to accomplish the caging of the lights only?
Scott R. Shook
RV-7A (Building)
N696JS (Reserved)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Z-20 Adaptation |
At 09:14 AM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob. On the battery front, my question was aimed more at what
>electrical stuff would I be safe putting on the engine side of the
>firewall, rather than the battery itself.
EVERYONE would rather you didn't install their
stuff under the cowl but nothing we build these
days is at-risk for taking up residence next
door to the engine.
>Could you also please clarify for me exactly what part you had in mind for
>the crowbar OV module connected to the DC master switch in Z-20?
There are articles on the website to craft your
own. I'm aware of dozens of successful DIY projects.
Or you can purchase ready made from B&C at
http://bandc.biz Look for "OVM-14"
Also, I believe Eric Jones has one or more OV
protection products that would be adaptable to
your task.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Question about Annunciating Lights |
At 11:53 AM 1/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>I have a really great idea for the panel of our RV and I wanted to solicit
>some help from the liters out there. We are using the dual screen
>AFS-3500 for our panel and I wanted to create an annunciator panel to sit
>next to the AFS in a vertical config. Here is my idea&
>
>Picture if you will a dual screen AFS setup in an RV-7A panel with a radio
>stack just slightly right of the middle. Just to the left of the radio
>stack and just to the right of the pilot side AFS is an annunciator panel
>with the following dimensions: 7 tall and 1.5 wide. There are
>approximately 12 individual annunciated items (pick what you want). The
>visible part of the annunciator panel itself is a reverse engraved acrylic
>installed in the panel.
>
>Here is the problem:
>
>I am looking for a method or product to cage the LED lighting for each
>individual annunciator. So when one lights up, you do not get bleed over
>light into an annunciator above or below the one that is lit.
>
>I have the wiring, connectors and case already laid out on paper and that
>is not my problem and this is not the issue; my only stumbling block is a
>way to cage the lights behind the acrylic panel that is visible.
>
>Does anyone out there know of a company or have an idea of a product to
>use to accomplish the caging of the lights only?
Get access to a milling machine and carve out an
"egg crate" structure to go between the back of
your panel overlay and the etched circuit board
holding the LEDS.
I just added a mortise drill to my woodworking toys
in Medicine Lodge. This thing cuts square holes.
In fact, the machine I bought is now on sale at
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=35570
It seems that some reasonably machinable plastic
or hard fiber material could be "machined" with
this simple tool to achieve what you want.
The one I did for a customer was an aluminum pattern
from which silicone rubber molds were cast. The molds
were then used to vacuum cast epoxy forms that made up
the egg-crate structure for the lamp pockets, front
panel escutcheon, pocket for engraved overlay for
legends and etched circuit board on the back.
This tool cost a couple of grand to but it was
used to make a fist full of nice parts.
For a one-of-a-kind project, you might consider
the mortise cutter as a good starting point. I'll
play with this idea a bit when I get back to the
shop. I've got a lot of walnut and oak that might
just be hard enough and machineable enough to
do the job.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Labeling |
Depending on what you specifically want, these guys are good too, I had them to
my breaker panel.
http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/
Brett
Quoting longg@pjm.com:
>
> Al,
> Fantastic, thanks for posting. It is rather difficult to find good
> custom aircraft shops in the NE.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> AlRice
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:37 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Panel Labeling
>
>
>
> Check out Aircraft Engravers at www.engravers.net.
>
> --------
> Al Rice
> Skybolt 260
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156060#156060
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Reliability (and other ???) |
FWIW I run two small 9AH batteries with Z-14. With an electrically
dependent engine running on a battery bus it is not overly difficult to
leave something running on a battery bus. My Low voltage warnings are
not active unless the EIS is powered off the main bus so it does not
warn if a light or battery bus item is left on. While it was definitely
not a design goal and I'm not recommending it - it is a benefit of Z-14
with equal size batteries that either one of those little Dekka
batteries will indeed start the engine. Closing the x-feed relay will
charge the other battery. A little hard on the dead battery for sure but
I've seen no evidence of overheating or outgassing while doing the
above. Mind you my largest alternator is 40 amps and it puts out less
than that on the ground and even less when other loads are subtracted.
Z-14 architecture has pleased me with unexpected benefits a couple of
times now.
A friend with a misbehaving electrical system would have really liked a
Z-14 recently when we were a long way from home or spare parts...
Ken
>> B - One of the mission requirements is backcountry
>> operations. Given that, one my design points was the ability to
>> start the plane with a completely dead primary (cranking)
>> battery, say as a result of leaving the master on.
>
> Why would you even consider that? You're obviously very
> concerned about NOT having necessary things operate 100%
> of the time but stacking lots of hardware on top of the
> probability that a pilot walks away from the airplane leaving
> things turned on is running off in the wrong direction.
>
> The most reliable system is that which has the fewest parts.
> The most reliable flight system has a minimum of options for
> the pilot consider when something is not working. A simple
> flashing low voltage warning light (comes with the LR3) tells
> you that a master switch is ON after engine shutdown . . .
> so that scenario is unworthy of consideration . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Question about Annunciating Lights |
Got a picture?
Why do you need 12 enunciators? Doesn't the AFS do this already?
I did just a few using legend lights from aircraft spruce. I modified some
spare bulbs I had already and made them into led bulbs. You can also buy
pre-made led bulbs in this format. works good. Attached is a picture of
the final result.
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott R.
Shook
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about Annunciating Lights
I have a really great idea for the panel of our RV and I wanted to solicit
some help from the liters out there. We are using the dual screen AFS-3500
for our panel and I wanted to create an annunciator panel to sit next to the
AFS in a vertical config. Here is my idea.
Picture if you will a dual screen AFS setup in an RV-7A panel with a radio
stack just slightly right of the middle. Just to the left of the radio
stack and just to the right of the pilot side AFS is an annunciator panel
with the following dimensions: 7" tall and 1.5" wide. There are
approximately 12 individual annunciated items (pick what you want). The
visible part of the annunciator panel itself is a reverse engraved acrylic
installed in the panel.
Here is the problem:
I am looking for a method or product to "cage" the LED lighting for each
individual annunciator. So when one lights up, you do not get bleed over
light into an annunciator above or below the one that is lit.
I have the wiring, connectors and case already laid out on paper and that is
not my problem and this is not the issue; my only stumbling block is a way
to 'cage' the lights behind the acrylic panel that is visible.
Does anyone out there know of a company or have an idea of a product to use
to accomplish the caging of the lights only?
Scott R. Shook
RV-7A (Building)
N696JS (Reserved)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
Eric,
I appreciate you comments but they seem to be a bit condescending toward Bob.
Is there a reason for that? If I indeed need to upsize my capacitor then I would
like to hear constructive debate on the matter. Everything I have read (which
granted is not much) on capacitors has stated that you want to size a capacitor
to twice the system voltage to be safe. In my case, I am at 13.8 +/- so
25 V is just under twice. Is 100 Volts overkill? My 25 V capacitor was supplied
by Kitfox and that is what all Kitfox aircraft are flying on as far as I
know.
I just want a reliable system and rely on you guys that know more about electronics
than I do to provide comments and assistance. If all we do is attack one
another, it makes it hard for us less electronically educated to make a good
decision.
For now, I am going to stick with the capacitor I have unless someone has a constructive
and good reason not to.
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156617#156617
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
> Eric, I appreciate you comments but they seem to be a bit condescending toward
Bob. Is there a reason for that?
I am not sure condescending is the word. And YES.
> Is 100 Volts overkill?
100V is not overkill, because load dumps are specified by most standards as 40V
(DO160)--the automotive load dump standard voltages are much higher. Any component
you use that attempts to filter the alternator needs "load-dump capability".
You could use a 18V Transorb (etc.) to prevent the overvoltage at the cap.
Then you could get away with a 25V cap, but this would be my second choice.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump
> My 25 V capacitor was supplied by Kitfox and that is what all Kitfox aircraft
are flying on as far as I know.
I don't deny that it would work. But electrolytic caps have a finite lifetime,
and they don't always give and indication that they failed. So why not do it right?
> I just want a reliable system and rely on you guys that know more about electronics
than I do to provide comments and assistance. If all we do is attack one
another, it makes it hard for us less electronically educated to make a good
decision.
There are major philosophical differences at play here--
Eric's Game: "Latest and Greatest...Hell this is EXPERIMENTAL after all!"
Bob's Game: "Safe and reliable...we've been doing it this way since 1956!"
There is probably some comfortable place between these two viewpoints.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156624#156624
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
darinh a crit :
> Everything I have read (which granted is not much) on capacitors has stated that
you want to size a capacitor to twice the system voltage to be safe. In my
case, I am at 13.8 +/- so 25 V is just under twice. Is 100 Volts overkill?
Darin,
I believe the rationale for the 100 volts is that in case of a runaway
regulator, the alternatror is capable of throwing up to 100 V at the
ship's circuit.
I have been considering this issue from the beginning, after the bench
tests we performed with a Rotax alternator and regulator.
Another way would be to adopt the latest Z16 architecture, when the OV
modules ensures total disconnection of the alternator from the aircraft.
I recently wired a Rotax 912 aircraft with this "newer" Z16, while our
own project still retains the "older" design, with the possibility that
the 25 V capacitor burt or something in case of overvoltage. I still
have to decide whether I change the capacitor to 100 V or change the
architecture.
Nevertheless, the aircraft has been flying for 3 years to date.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
Eric,
Thanks for the info. Your explanation makes sense and I would much prefer to do
it "right" or better from the get go.
Giles,
I am want to install OV protection on my airplane but don't know exactly how.
I have looked at Bob's OV modules and Eric has some on his site as well. Is this
something I can simply install anywhere in the power distribution system or
does it need to be strategically placed like on the alt. field line? I am thinking
that I would like to put it on my main buss to monitor voltage there unless
this won't work. The question is...how does it "disconnect" the alternator
power supply. Forgive me if this is a novice question, but I am a novice
when it comes to electronics.
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156637#156637
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
At 11:20 AM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
> > The capacitor is no more vulnerable than say a radio.
>
>
>A radio has some sophisticated voltage clamping on its input. So you are
>wrong.
Hmmm . . . if you check the archives, you'll find places
where I was chastised for not acknowledging a not-to-exceed
value of 16.0 volts for some popular radios. While radios
qualified to DO-160 are not at risk when paired with
contemporary OV protection techniques, the OBAM community
is buying a hardware that is not. A DO-160 qualified, 14v
radio is tested to stand off 20 volts for 1 second.
How about 20 volts for 3 seconds . . . 5 seconds? I'll
suggest that there may be fully qualified radios that passed
the 20v-for-one-second-test that are still at risk for failure
when subjected to voltages well under the limits for a 25-volt
rated capacitor.
> > In 20 years of writing for the OBAM aircraft community, I've had one
> guy suffer a capacitor failure on a Rotax powered Kitfox. He wired it in
> backwards. The capacitor didn't blow up, it opened the pressure relief
> valve in the top and oozed ugly gooey stuff.
>
>In my 40 years of writing about and studying electronics, I've seen
>hundreds of capacitor failures. Most of the big electrolytics failed
>internally by having greatly reduced capacitance or excessive resistive
>loads or a variety of other problems that did not involve explosions.
>Really Bob....!
Yes. Capacitors fail. Capacitors have a service life.
I recommend that the computer grade electrolytics featured
in my designs be replaced every 5 years or so just a
a preventative maintenance effort. But please recall
that the topic of this thread is "exploding capacitors".
My response was a simple assertion that the risks for
hazardous failure (explosion) are exceedingly low.
I'll further assert that contemporary OV protection
philosophies and techniques are adequate to protect both
a 20-volts-for-1-second-radio and a 25-volts-for-hours-
capacitor.
> > Are you telling us that the makers of these devices are failing to tell
> us about the hazards of misapplication or mistreatment of their product?
> The battery guys put pressure relief valves in their products too. It is
> reasonable to suppose there's a well considered reason for that?
>
>What are you ranting about? I have no clue.
I'm not ranting. It's a question built upon an
observation:
Why have a pressure relief valve? Do they
make things run longer, cooler, faster . . . or
do you suppose they are intended to mitigate
risk of explosion?
> > Yes, I've blown up an aluminum electrolytic but it too was in backwards
> and that was in 1956. Let us take care lest we elevate an exceedingly
> remote hazard to levels unworthy of learned discussion.
>
>What is you problem, Bob? Why not just say..."Yes, that is probably
>right." Your version of a "learned discussion" eludes me. Backing up and
>taking another think at an issue would not decrease my respect for you.
I do not sift my responses through the filter
of seeking anyone's approval or respect. Thus far, your
arguments are weak on supporting simple-ideas.
From the time an OV event begins in a contemporary
TC aircraft system until the time the runaway
alternator is brought under control is on the
order of 10-30 milliseconds with a maximum excursion
that is far less than the 25-volt rating of the
recommended capacitor. Yes, there are combinations
of failures that can trash the capacitor . . . but
the same failure will take fists full of radios with it.
If you have no argument with this statement,
then upon what alternative simple-idea do you
suggest that a capacitor be greatly more robust
than the radios which get power from the same
system?
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Question about Annunciating Lights |
Bob, Good luck getting your mortising bit to cut through hard woods. These
things are made for softer woods but if you keep the cutter edges sharp they
will do a much better job. They ALL must be honed when you get them new...
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about Annunciating Lights
--> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
At 11:53 AM 1/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>I have a really great idea for the panel of our RV and I wanted to
>solicit some help from the liters out there. We are using the dual
>screen AFS-3500 for our panel and I wanted to create an annunciator
>panel to sit next to the AFS in a vertical config. Here is my idea&
>
>Picture if you will a dual screen AFS setup in an RV-7A panel with a
>radio stack just slightly right of the middle. Just to the left of the
>radio stack and just to the right of the pilot side AFS is an
>annunciator panel with the following dimensions: 7 tall and 1.5 wide.
>There are approximately 12 individual annunciated items (pick what you
>want). The visible part of the annunciator panel itself is a reverse
>engraved acrylic installed in the panel.
>
>Here is the problem:
>
>I am looking for a method or product to cage the LED lighting for each
>individual annunciator. So when one lights up, you do not get bleed
>over light into an annunciator above or below the one that is lit.
>
>I have the wiring, connectors and case already laid out on paper and
>that is not my problem and this is not the issue; my only stumbling
>block is a way to cage the lights behind the acrylic panel that is visible.
>
>Does anyone out there know of a company or have an idea of a product to
>use to accomplish the caging of the lights only?
Get access to a milling machine and carve out an
"egg crate" structure to go between the back of
your panel overlay and the etched circuit board
holding the LEDS.
I just added a mortise drill to my woodworking toys
in Medicine Lodge. This thing cuts square holes.
In fact, the machine I bought is now on sale at
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=35570
It seems that some reasonably machinable plastic
or hard fiber material could be "machined" with
this simple tool to achieve what you want.
The one I did for a customer was an aluminum pattern
from which silicone rubber molds were cast. The molds
were then used to vacuum cast epoxy forms that made up
the egg-crate structure for the lamp pockets, front
panel escutcheon, pocket for engraved overlay for
legends and etched circuit board on the back.
This tool cost a couple of grand to but it was
used to make a fist full of nice parts.
For a one-of-a-kind project, you might consider
the mortise cutter as a good starting point. I'll
play with this idea a bit when I get back to the
shop. I've got a lot of walnut and oak that might
just be hard enough and machineable enough to
do the job.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Reliability |
At 10:36 PM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Bob:
>
>You're right. Ignorance is bliss.
Gee, I hope not. May I suggest that confidence is
bliss. That confidence is best achieved from some
level of personal understanding . . . but we cannot
all be experts at everything. So at some point, we
move forward based on observations of outcome for
repeatable experiments.
I don't buy Firestone tires because this is the
only brand of tire that I've personally experienced
two catastrophic failures at turnpike speeds. Admittedly,
both experiences were 30+ years ago . . . but at some
time later, there was a big recall of Firestones on
Ford products.
This doesn't mean all Firestones are bad, but
personal experience combined with observed successes
by other folk suggests that I'm well advised to
patronize alternative brands. Now, I don't know squat
about how either good tires or bad tires are assembled
and it would not be a good use of my $time$ to look into
the details of the matter.
I'll suggest that your $time$ is best invested in
exploitation of repeatable experiments . . . whether
in TC or OBAM aircraft. This is how ignorance is
reduced to a non-hazardous condition.
Bob . . .
> Z-14 it is.
Good choice. It will perform as advertised.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
At 04:57 PM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
> > Eric, I appreciate you comments but they seem to be a bit condescending
> toward Bob. Is there a reason for that?
>
>
>I am not sure condescending is the word. And YES.
>
>
> > Is 100 Volts overkill?
>
>
>100V is not overkill, because load dumps are specified by most
>standards as 40V (DO160)--the automotive load dump standard voltages are
>much higher. Any component you use that attempts to filter the alternator
>needs "load-dump capability". You could use a 18V Transorb (etc.) to
>prevent the overvoltage at the cap. Then you could get away with a 25V
>cap, but this would be my second choice.
>
>See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump
The load dump characterized by the folks
who design DC power generation systems is
generated by (1) sudden removal all loads
from the alternator including the battery and
(2) the use of a wound-field alternator-regulator
combination common to those systems.
We're discussing PM alternators and their
regulator which are an entirely different
breed of critter.
My study of some common rectifier/regulator
products combined with my experience for having
designed a couple leads be to assert that sudden
removal of all loads, including battery from a
hard-working PM alternator will not produce
the load dump event discussed.
> > I just want a reliable system and rely on you guys that know more about
> electronics than I do to provide comments and assistance. If all we do is
> attack one another, it makes it hard for us less electronically educated
> to make a good decision.
>
>
>There are major philosophical differences at play here--
This isn't about philosophy, it's about the simple
ideas and the repeatable experiment. Others have
joined discussions on this List predicting all manner
of dire consequences for a host of un-demonstrated
concerns that argued with things we already knew and
understood.
If you believe my deductions to be incorrect, nobody
would be more pleased to know the truth than I.
This isn't about Eric's "philosophy" pitted against
Bob's "philosophy", it's about the numbers. You're
just as capable of doing the science as anyone else
here. Make my day, show me where I'm wrong.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
All of this discussion about capacitor sizing brings up a question in my mind about
the Z-25 (self exciting) arrangement for the SD-8. In this case, the alternator
is not really being "shut down" by the OV module but merely disconnected
from the buss. The capacitor is still being subjected to whatever the now
unloaded SD-8 can muster. The Z-25 figure shows a 15-50V capacitor so does this
imply that the SD-8 won't muster more than 50V?
--------
Dan Langhout
Madison, AL
RV-7 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156660#156660
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Shutdown reminder for switched loads on the battery |
bus
At 01:22 PM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>FWIW I run two small 9AH batteries with Z-14. With an electrically
>dependent engine running on a battery bus it is not overly difficult to
>leave something running on a battery bus. My Low voltage warnings are not
>active unless the EIS is powered off the main bus so it does not warn if a
>light or battery bus item is left on. While it was definitely not a design
>goal and I'm not recommending it - it is a benefit of Z-14 with equal size
>batteries that either one of those little Dekka batteries will indeed
>start the engine. Closing the x-feed relay will charge the other battery.
>A little hard on the dead battery for sure but I've seen no evidence of
>overheating or outgassing while doing the above. Mind you my largest
>alternator is 40 amps and it puts out less than that on the ground and
>even less when other loads are subtracted. Z-14 architecture has pleased
>me with unexpected benefits a couple of times now.
>
>A friend with a misbehaving electrical system would have really liked a
>Z-14 recently when we were a long way from home or spare parts...
>
>Ken
One could install a low volts warning light to
watch switched, battery bus loads and drive the
warning from the downstream side of the control
switch. When the system is first powered up before
engine start, the light would come on and flash
if one or more battery bus loads is energized.
But as soon as the alternator picks up the bus,
the light would go out.
The same light would serve to remind the pilot
to shut down battery bus driven loads after the
engine is stopped or the alternator is shut down.
The circuit could be fitted with a cancel button
to stop the flashing in the event that an alternator
fails and the systems are now running battery only.
I can see how this might be accomplished with a
single lamp fixture with a built in PTT feature.
The lamp would annunciate the ON condition for
any battery bus supported load coincident with
low voltage. The PTT switch could be used to signal
the system to cancel flashing.
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
Eric M. Jones wrote:
> <emjones@charter.net>
>
>
>> Eric, I appreciate you comments but they seem to be a bit
>> condescending toward Bob. Is there a reason for that?
>
>
> I am not sure condescending is the word. And YES.
>
>
>> Is 100 Volts overkill?
>
>
> 100V is not overkill, because load dumps are specified by most
> standards as 40V (DO160)--the automotive load dump standard voltages
> are much higher. Any component you use that attempts to filter the
> alternator needs "load-dump capability". You could use a 18V Transorb
> (etc.) to prevent the overvoltage at the cap. Then you could get away
> with a 25V cap, but this would be my second choice.
>
> See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump
>
>
>> My 25 V capacitor was supplied by Kitfox and that is what all
>> Kitfox aircraft are flying on as far as I know.
>
>
> I don't deny that it would work. But electrolytic caps have a finite
> lifetime, and they don't always give and indication that they failed.
> So why not do it right?
>
>
>> I just want a reliable system and rely on you guys that know more
>> about electronics than I do to provide comments and assistance. If
>> all we do is attack one another, it makes it hard for us less
>> electronically educated to make a good decision.
>
>
> There are major philosophical differences at play here--
>
> Eric's Game: "Latest and Greatest...Hell this is EXPERIMENTAL after
> all!" Bob's Game: "Safe and reliable...we've been doing it this way
> since 1956!"
>
> There is probably some comfortable place between these two
> viewpoints.
>
> -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net
>
Eric, you do some cool stuff & you've got some useful ideas, but your
assessment of 'Bob's game' is absurd on its face. Anyone with brain
activity much above the plant level who's followed this list for more
than a week knows that's just a lie.
Any time I see someone try to prop up their reputation by running
down someone else personally, I've got to question their confidence in
their own position.
Charlie
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
All of this discussion about capacitor sizing brings up a question in my
mind about the Z-25 (self exciting) arrangement for the SD-8. In this
case, the alternator is not really being "shut down" by the OV module
but merely disconnected from the buss. The capacitor is still being
subjected to whatever the now unloaded SD-8 can muster. The Z-25 figure
shows a 15-50V capacitor so does this imply that the SD-8 won't muster
more than 50V?
Dan Langhout
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 11:20 AM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>> > The capacitor is no more vulnerable than say a radio.
>>
>>
>> A radio has some sophisticated voltage clamping on its input. So you
>> are wrong.
>
> Hmmm . . . if you check the archives, you'll find places
> where I was chastised for not acknowledging a not-to-exceed
> value of 16.0 volts for some popular radios. While radios
> qualified to DO-160 are not at risk when paired with
> contemporary OV protection techniques, the OBAM community
> is buying a hardware that is not. A DO-160 qualified, 14v
> radio is tested to stand off 20 volts for 1 second.
> How about 20 volts for 3 seconds . . . 5 seconds? I'll
> suggest that there may be fully qualified radios that passed
> the 20v-for-one-second-test that are still at risk for failure
> when subjected to voltages well under the limits for a 25-volt
> rated capacitor.
>
>> > In 20 years of writing for the OBAM aircraft community, I've had
>> one guy suffer a capacitor failure on a Rotax powered Kitfox. He
>> wired it in backwards. The capacitor didn't blow up, it opened the
>> pressure relief valve in the top and oozed ugly gooey stuff.
>>
>> In my 40 years of writing about and studying electronics, I've seen
>> hundreds of capacitor failures. Most of the big electrolytics failed
>> internally by having greatly reduced capacitance or excessive
>> resistive loads or a variety of other problems that did not involve
>> explosions. Really Bob....!
>
> Yes. Capacitors fail. Capacitors have a service life.
> I recommend that the computer grade electrolytics featured
> in my designs be replaced every 5 years or so just a
> a preventative maintenance effort. But please recall
> that the topic of this thread is "exploding capacitors".
> My response was a simple assertion that the risks for
> hazardous failure (explosion) are exceedingly low.
> I'll further assert that contemporary OV protection
> philosophies and techniques are adequate to protect both
> a 20-volts-for-1-second-radio and a 25-volts-for-hours-
> capacitor.
>
>> > Are you telling us that the makers of these devices are failing to
>> tell us about the hazards of misapplication or mistreatment of their
>> product? The battery guys put pressure relief valves in their
>> products too. It is reasonable to suppose there's a well considered
>> reason for that?
>>
>> What are you ranting about? I have no clue.
>
> I'm not ranting. It's a question built upon an
> observation:
>
> Why have a pressure relief valve? Do they
> make things run longer, cooler, faster . . . or
> do you suppose they are intended to mitigate
> risk of explosion?
>
>> > Yes, I've blown up an aluminum electrolytic but it too was in
>> backwards and that was in 1956. Let us take care lest we elevate an
>> exceedingly remote hazard to levels unworthy of learned discussion.
>>
>> What is you problem, Bob? Why not just say..."Yes, that is probably
>> right." Your version of a "learned discussion" eludes me. Backing up
>> and taking another think at an issue would not decrease my respect
>> for you.
>
> I do not sift my responses through the filter
> of seeking anyone's approval or respect. Thus far, your
> arguments are weak on supporting simple-ideas.
>
> From the time an OV event begins in a contemporary
> TC aircraft system until the time the runaway
> alternator is brought under control is on the
> order of 10-30 milliseconds with a maximum excursion
> that is far less than the 25-volt rating of the
> recommended capacitor. Yes, there are combinations
> of failures that can trash the capacitor . . . but
> the same failure will take fists full of radios with it.
>
> If you have no argument with this statement,
> then upon what alternative simple-idea do you
> suggest that a capacitor be greatly more robust
> than the radios which get power from the same
> system?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 31
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Well, here's a data point. I have my Garmin Audio panel set up to accept
music input from my Ipod using a 1/8" stereo jack. I've hooked up the line
optional ground line for High Gain (pin J2-15, if you must know). The
system works as advertised and as other's have noted, the sound isn't like
your HiFI but better than nothing in my David Clarks. However, when I turn
on the ANR, it makes a Hugh difference in both sound quality - more bass-
and it boosts the volume. Neither effects were anticipated. Anyone have
any ideas as to why this is happening, it is a good thing!
Marty in Brentwood TN
Message 32
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| Subject: | Rebuilding Gyros |
I've a couple of Electric Gyros (AI and DG) that need new bearings. For an
experimental I'm under the impression I can work on these instruments
myself. Has anyone else done this and know a source for the bearings?
Suggestions on who might be considered to do the overhaul without a yellow
tag would also be appreciated.
Marty in Brentwood. RV-6A finishing.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Question about Annunciating Lights |
Scott,
You could try thin brass stock (hobby shop). It is easily bent and
soldered. I used some LED lighted push buttons that I'm not sure that I
like. The panel is a small radio width panel at the top of my stack so
It may get rebuilt but not before I fly!!
"I have a really great idea for the panel of our RV and I wanted to
solicit some help from the liters out there. We are using the dual
screen AFS-3500 for our panel and I wanted to create an annunciator
panel to sit next to the AFS in a vertical config."
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
At 06:07 PM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Eric,
>
>Thanks for the info. Your explanation makes sense and I would much prefer
>to do it "right" or better from the get go.
>
>Giles,
>
>I am want to install OV protection on my airplane but don't know exactly
>how. I have looked at Bob's OV modules and Eric has some on his site as
>well. Is this something I can simply install anywhere in the power
>distribution system or does it need to be strategically placed like on the
>alt. field line? I am thinking that I would like to put it on my main
>buss to monitor voltage there unless this won't work. The question
>is...how does it "disconnect" the alternator power supply. Forgive me if
>this is a novice question, but I am a novice when it comes to electronics.
The Z-figures were crafted to offer the most strategic
locations for inserting OV protection. I'll suggest that
you pick a Z-figure that most closely meets your design
goals for cost and performance and then see what
might be fixed to match your design goals completely.
Bob . . .
Message 35
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| Subject: | Question about Annunciating Lights |
At 08:53 PM 1/7/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Bob, Good luck getting your mortising bit to cut through hard woods. These
>things are made for softer woods but if you keep the cutter edges sharp they
>will do a much better job. They ALL must be honed when you get them new...
I've had pretty good performance in walnut but I've not
yet explored the tools/talents to keep them sharp.
I'm thinking a machining-friendly plastic like Delrin
would be a good starting point. I've got some scraps
to try on the next trip.
Bob . . .
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Exploding Capacitors? |
At 07:07 PM 1/7/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>All of this discussion about capacitor sizing brings up a question in my
>mind about the Z-25 (self exciting) arrangement for the SD-8. In this
>case, the alternator is not really being "shut down" by the OV module but
>merely disconnected from the buss. The capacitor is still being subjected
>to whatever the now unloaded SD-8 can muster. The Z-25 figure shows a
>15-50V capacitor so does this imply that the SD-8 won't muster more than 50V?
In an un-restrained (failed regulator) all of the
14v PM alternators are capable of output voltages
in excess of 25 volts. That's why we consider
adding ov protection that keeps the event low in
magnitude and short lived.
But as long as there's a battery on line,
alternators of any size are incapable of boosting
voltage at a rate faster than what the ov protection
systems are designed to mitigate.
At Revision 12, all of the PM alternator drawings
will be updated to place OV disconnect in the AC
output lines of the alternator as depicted in Z-16.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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