---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/15/08: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:11 AM - Alternator / Charging issue () 2. 05:11 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Chuck Jensen) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Brett Ferrell) 4. 06:47 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Mike) 5. 06:48 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Mike) 6. 07:28 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (SteinAir, Inc.) 7. 07:59 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Chuck Jensen) 8. 08:18 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:35 AM - Re: KX-155 / KT-76A pin wiring & antennas (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:40 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Mike) 11. 08:52 AM - Re: Alternator / Charging issue (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:54 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Mike) 13. 09:19 AM - Off Subject - Barry Controls Engine Mounts (Bill Bradburry) 14. 11:09 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (John W. Cox) 15. 11:21 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 11:55 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Peter Pengilly) 17. 01:09 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 02:06 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (sam@fr8dog.net) 19. 06:45 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Henador Titzoff) 20. 07:05 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Henador Titzoff) 21. 07:42 PM - IFR GPS requirements (William Gill) 22. 08:05 PM - Re: Alternator / Charging issue (William Gill) 23. 08:17 PM - Re: IFR GPS requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:22 PM - OT-- Solar panel overvoltage (vozzen) 25. 08:49 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 01/14/08 (Jeff Page) 26. 09:12 PM - Re: OT-- Solar panel overvoltage (Ron Quillin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:37 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator / Charging issue 1/15/2008 Hello Steve, Suggest that you check the wiring, particularly the ground wire, on your voltage regulator. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ---------------------------------------------- Time: 06:36:07 PM PST US From: Steve Reeves Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator / Charging issue A while back my alternator decided to start cycling on and off every now and again, mostly when under load. It will never do it during a day flight, and only during the day when running strobes. I can induce it at night fairly easily sometimes with the navs, fuel pump, landing light, and panel lights (no strobes needed..they seem able to induce the problem by themselves). I was returning from Miss. a few nights ago and it decided to do this. I shut down the strobes and everything was fine (as usual). I turned the strobes back on and the last 30 min or so of the flight was uneventful. I installed a new B&C battery yesterday and the problem occurred again yesterday evening 1 time near the beginning of the flight, and more so on the ground after I landed and had the engine at idle power. I stayed in the pattern since I had a "known" electrical issue. Here are few things I may have forgotten to mention, and I can't be sure if this could be a cause of my problem. 2) I notice both my EI voltmeter as well as the Dynon (backup to my gyro ;) ) are reporting about 13.5V when in flight. I would assume this should be around 14.5 or so. I think before this problem it did. Funny the little things you start to notice when you actually have a problem. 3) The main problem is that if under load, the system will "shut down" the charging system intermittently and then come back online. Sometimes in a rapid (5 secs or so) succession or sometimes in more erratic unpredictable intervals. Like the flight back the other night, it acted up then stayed online for the remainder of the flight. I'll see the voltage annunciator come on and the voltage drop to 11.8 or 12...then it will go back up to 13.5. It may stay for a while...the remainder of the flight...or maybe 10 secs. It's crazy. I thought I had the alternator tested at one time and was told it was fine. I also just replaced my main solenoid (it was going bad..wouldn't connect when I turned the master on). That's fine now, but that didn't help the problem either. This problem is driving me crazy. Any and all input would be appreciated. I'm almost convinced I'm never going to find the root if this thing. Thanks again. Steve Reeves Glasair 38SR ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS From: "Chuck Jensen" Bruce, The experiences reported by others are just data bits. It's up to the recipient to determine whether the props or reported dings apply to their situation or not. One is free to discount the comments of all others. The advantage of doing so is the opportunity to relearn the same lessons they have already learned. If I recall correctly, that's why history keeps repeating itself. Certainly, because someone reports something about a product or person doesn't make it a fact or an opinion, but simply information to consider, digest and factor into one's own actions. That reporting is one of the most valuable aspects of these lists. That reporting is one of the reasons I bought dual GRT EFIS--because of the feature set, reputation of delivering on promised upgrades and excellent customer support; all of which I have found to be accurate. You are certainly welcome to ignore outside information, but one does so at their own peril and pain. Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Peters Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true! On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell < bferrell@123mail.net> wrote: bferrell@123mail.net > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. Brett www.velocityxl.com Quoting Mike < mlas@cox.net>: > > Henador, > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds > then BMA is not for you.... > > Mike > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:58 AM PST US From: Brett Ferrell Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I'm missing something here, Bruce. As I said, I HAVE owned (and still do) the product, you can see pictures of it on my website (listed below), so I'm not sure how this message is relevant. Or, were you not trying to make a relevant point?? http://www.velocityxl.com/EFIS_one.JPG B Quoting Bruce Peters : > Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You > know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to > anyone else cause it nust be true! > > On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell wrote: > > > bferrell@123mail.net> > > > > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I > > think > > that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, > > but > > I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first > > can > > mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of > > perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my > > discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. > > > > Brett > > www.velocityxl.com > > > > Quoting Mike : > > > > > > > > Henador, > > > > > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you > > > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have > > > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have > > > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read > > > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is > > > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds > > > then BMA is not for you.... > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:22 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Bruce, I have a BMA EFIS, I=92ll sell it to you for half price! What I think is funny, is that people who don=92t have one want to support it, or people who spent all the money they had are stuck with it and are forced to love it. I just want to keep people informed and keep them from make the same mistake others including myself have made. The BMA product looks good on paper. When I started looking at it I saw the problems with the original product and the second generation product. I used some of the same deduction and reasoning that has been exhibited here on this site. I said self, they should have their shit together by the third iteration and the price should be right. The whole time the product litterateur got prettier and prettier. Well it doesn=92t work! The screens freeze up, the unit crashes, most of the info coming from the probes on the engine system is not correct, the database they use is not certified(this may have changed recently), and their product support in a word sucks (It=92s the worst in the industry). Caveat emptor! Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Peters Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true! On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell wrote: "mailto:bferrell@123mail.net"bferrell@123mail.net > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. Brett HYPERLINK "http://www.velocityxl.com/" \nwww.velocityxl.com 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:46 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Chuck, Well said! Mike Ps- How=92s the GRT system treating you? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:09 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Bruce, The experiences reported by others are just data bits. It's up to the recipient to determine whether the props or reported dings apply to their situation or not. One is free to discount the comments of all others. The advantage of doing so is the opportunity to relearn the same lessons they have already learned. If I recall correctly, that's why history keeps repeating itself. Certainly, because someone reports something about a product or person doesn't make it a fact or an opinion, but simply information to consider, digest and factor into one's own actions. That reporting is one of the most valuable aspects of these lists. That reporting is one of the reasons I bought dual GRT EFIS--because of the feature set, reputation of delivering on promised upgrades and excellent customer support; all of which I have found to be accurate. You are certainly welcome to ignore outside information, but one does so at their own peril and pain. Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Peters Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true! On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell wrote: "mailto:bferrell@123mail.net"bferrell@123mail.net > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. Brett HYPERLINK "http://www.velocityxl.com/" \nwww.velocityxl.com Quoting Mike : "mailto:mlas@cox.net"mlas@cox.net> > > Henador, > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds > then BMA is not for you.... > > Mike > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:14 AM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Just Curious, how many successfull flight hours do you have behind your BMA? Cheers, Stein do not archive >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brett >Ferrell >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:44 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS > > > > >I'm missing something here, Bruce. As I said, I HAVE owned (and >still do) the >product, you can see pictures of it on my website (listed below), >so I'm not >sure how this message is relevant. Or, were you not trying to >make a relevant >point?? > >http://www.velocityxl.com/EFIS_one.JPG > >B > >Quoting Bruce Peters : > >> Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the >product! You >> know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to >> anyone else cause it nust be true! >> >> On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell wrote: >> >> > bferrell@123mail.net> >> > >> > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been >satisfied. I >> > think >> > that for the price, they offer the most capable and current >functionality, >> > but >> > I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first >> > can >> > mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have >the option of >> > perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my >> > discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. >> > >> > Brett >> > www.velocityxl.com >> > >> > Quoting Mike : >> > >> > > >> > > Henador, >> > > >> > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you >> > > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have >> > > written four posts today on this subject on two different >sites. I have >> > > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read >> > > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is >> > > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds >> > > then BMA is not for you.... >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS From: "Chuck Jensen" Mike, I'm certainly satisfied with the GRT EFIS and the "service experience." At one time, GRT was way ahead in features with ability to fly coupled approaches, maps overlays and what all....many of the things BMA promised but never delivered (and no, I don't own a BMA, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion!). The main ding on GRT was the low resolution of the display. The display was not as beautiful as a BMA, but then, it would consistently boot up and not go dark--a good tradeoff. They have responded to concern about display resolution by shipping a higher resolution display next month that is a little bigger and, no surprise, costs a little more, but they will upgrade previous units for a reasonably fair cost. The higher resolution, reported to be a good looker, should be helpful in displaying maps, obstructions, wx, airports, et al. When that many details were shown on the lo-res units, readability did become a bit of an issue. In sum, even though not bullet proof (even the certified units aren't), I believe GRT is an excellent choice and a good value for the offered feature set with excellent service to back it up. With that said, there are several competing systems that are also very good and if the price, aesthetics and features strike your fancy, they will do well for you also. With all the new choices available, life-is-good. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Chuck, Well said! Mike Ps- How=92s the GRT system treating you? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:09 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Bruce, The experiences reported by others are just data bits. It's up to the recipient to determine whether the props or reported dings apply to their situation or not. One is free to discount the comments of all others. The advantage of doing so is the opportunity to relearn the same lessons they have already learned. If I recall correctly, that's why history keeps repeating itself. Certainly, because someone reports something about a product or person doesn't make it a fact or an opinion, but simply information to consider, digest and factor into one's own actions. That reporting is one of the most valuable aspects of these lists. That reporting is one of the reasons I bought dual GRT EFIS--because of the feature set, reputation of delivering on promised upgrades and excellent customer support; all of which I have found to be accurate. You are certainly welcome to ignore outside information, but one does so at their own peril and pain. Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Peters Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true! On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell < bferrell@123mail.net> wrote: bferrell@123mail.net > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. Brett www.velocityxl.com Quoting Mike < mlas@cox.net>: > > Henador, > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds > then BMA is not for you.... > > Mike > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS At 08:31 PM 1/14/2008 -0500, you wrote: > > >I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and >I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue >Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead >and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! :-) >Sam What we're witnessing here is a "snowstorm" of anecdotal data and the attempts by many to deduce a "degree of goodness" for a product based on analysis of that data. In the TC aircraft world, we rely on repeatable experiments that put a product through a representative set of tests that benchmark performance. These tests are completely independent of the producer's talents for design, manufacturing and customer service. Complaints are valuable information but must be sorted for relevance to (1) science or (2) business model. The world's most elegant product is worthless when it cannot be supported by quality workmanship and honorable marketing. On the other hand, many a marginal and/or even dangerous product has gained a marketplace toe-hold when manufactured and promoted by persuasive individuals. Just watch late night TV for a host of examples for the later class of merchandise. We've all heard less than complimentary reports about Blue Mountain. I've received numerous stories from knowledgeable system integrators, pilots and marketing folks who had nothing but good wishes for success of this product. They wanted to sell it as a supporting system in their own airframes. All of these stories are dated. I would hope that Blue Mountain's longevity in the marketplace has more to do with IMPROVEMENTS to both their science and marketing than for an ability to squeeze, bottle and sell snake-oil. When evaluating the usefulness of anecdotal data from the field, one would do well to view that data through the filters of reasonableness. Does the data item make sense? The data items need to be sorted into two piles: (1) science and (2) production, marketing and customer service. Finally, one is well advised to deduce the story teller's intent . . . informative, humorous, persuasive or simply hurtful. If this sounds like more effort and skill than most of us are able to bring to the argument, the risk to value for participating in such discussions becomes obvious. It's an fundamental element of human nature that individuals with unhappy experiences will tend toward persuasive words intended to hurt. But without knowing the simple-ideas which support an individual's experience, the intent and value of their words is not calculable. I hope individuals who wish to contribute to the List's collective knowledge and understanding will do a bit of pre-filtering for their own words before committing them to the archives. Try to be informative as to fact and the outcomes of repeatable experiments. Avoid passing on information that was not observed/experienced first hand. Whether you support or disfavor a product or service, be specific as to the PERSONAL command of facts upon which you've based your opinion. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KX-155 / KT-76A pin wiring & antennas At 09:37 AM 1/14/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >I am attempting to install a KX-155 (no GS) and KT-76A in my Zenith CH701 >project. I have the pin wiring diagrams from Bendix/King showing what pin >does what, but I'm confused about the pin labeling. > >I referenced Bob's site at >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KX155.pdf and >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KT76A-76C-78A.pdf > >but my unit has a different number of pins. My A1 board is only 15 pins >and the A2 board is 11 pins. How are the pins labeled (1-15, a-z, >etc.). Also, what letters are skipped (I, O)? The data posted on my website was purloined from an out of print publication called "Where the wires go", the effort of an avionics technician that bothered to compile and share his personal library of knowledge. I have no way to confirm or deny the accuracy of these drawings. Obviously, if the drawing differs physically from what your particular equipment items show, then the data are suspect and probably cannot be relied upon. Suggest you visit an avionics shop on a small airport and make friends with the owner. Years ago, I was privileged to enjoy the friendship of one of the real grey-beards in avionics. He had a library of data that went all the way back to these wonderful products: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012765.JPG http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012780.JPG http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012763.JPG I used to buy, refurbish and sell these radios back in the days when I was the proud holder of a 1st Class Radio Telephone License. The radios you're wrestling with are not nearly so dated . . . but finding useful data out in the wild is becoming increasingly difficult. If you do find some information that's more useful than what I've published, I'd be pleased to receive some copies which I will scan and make available to others. >Second question: I realize the transponder antenna should not be bundled >with other wires, but is it okay to bundle the COM and NAV antenna cables >with other wires? There are no fundamentals in physics that recommend separation of wires between potentially antagonistic systems. There are two purposes for DO-160 testing against a TSO document for TC aircraft appliances. (1) make sure the device performs as advertised and (2) relieve the installer from making concessions to one system versus another system for happy coexistence in an airplane. Folks who experienced success at eliminating interference by repositioning wires have only succeeded in masking the root cause of a problem. The practice of sorting wire bundles as a prophylactic against interference problems is not an industry practice. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:50 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Chuck, That has been our experience with the GRT stuff. Not polished but works very well! I personally own two EIS systems from GRT based on all the success I have experienced helping other builders and customers. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:56 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Mike, I'm certainly satisfied with the GRT EFIS and the "service experience." At one time, GRT was way ahead in features with ability to fly coupled approaches, maps overlays and what all....many of the things BMA promised but never delivered (and no, I don't own a BMA, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion!). The main ding on GRT was the low resolution of the display. The display was not as beautiful as a BMA, but then, it would consistently boot up and not go dark--a good tradeoff. They have responded to concern about display resolution by shipping a higher resolution display next month that is a little bigger and, no surprise, costs a little more, but they will upgrade previous units for a reasonably fair cost. The higher resolution, reported to be a good looker, should be helpful in displaying maps, obstructions, wx, airports, et al. When that many details were shown on the lo-res units, readability did become a bit of an issue. In sum, even though not bullet proof (even the certified units aren't), I believe GRT is an excellent choice and a good value for the offered feature set with excellent service to back it up. With that said, there are several competing systems that are also very good and if the price, aesthetics and features strike your fancy, they will do well for you also. With all the new choices available, life-is-good. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Chuck, Well said! Mike Ps- How=92s the GRT system treating you? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:09 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Bruce, The experiences reported by others are just data bits. It's up to the recipient to determine whether the props or reported dings apply to their situation or not. One is free to discount the comments of all others. The advantage of doing so is the opportunity to relearn the same lessons they have already learned. If I recall correctly, that's why history keeps repeating itself. Certainly, because someone reports something about a product or person doesn't make it a fact or an opinion, but simply information to consider, digest and factor into one's own actions. That reporting is one of the most valuable aspects of these lists. That reporting is one of the reasons I bought dual GRT EFIS--because of the feature set, reputation of delivering on promised upgrades and excellent customer support; all of which I have found to be accurate. You are certainly welcome to ignore outside information, but one does so at their own peril and pain. Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Peters Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:33 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true! On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell wrote: "mailto:bferrell@123mail.net"bferrell@123mail.net > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. Brett HYPERLINK "http://www.velocityxl.com/" \nwww.velocityxl.com Quoting Mike : "mailto:mlas@cox.net"mlas@cox.net> > > Henador, > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds > then BMA is not for you.... > > Mike > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator / Charging issue At 09:34 PM 1/14/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >A while back my alternator decided to start cycling on and off every now >and again, mostly when under load. It will never do it during a day >flight, and only during the day when running strobes. I can induce it at >night fairly easily sometimes with the navs, fuel pump, landing light, and >panel lights (no strobes needed..they seem able to induce the problem by >themselves). I was returning from Miss. a few nights ago and it decided >to do this. I shut down the strobes and everything was fine (as >usual). I turned the strobes back on and the last 30 min or so of the >flight was uneventful. > >I installed a new B&C battery yesterday and the problem occurred again >yesterday evening 1 time near the beginning of the flight, and more so on >the ground after I landed and had the engine at idle power. I stayed in >the pattern since I had a "known" electrical issue. > >Here are few things I may have forgotten to mention, and I can't be sure >if this could be a cause of my problem. > > >2) I notice both my EI voltmeter as well as the Dynon (backup to my gyro >;) ) are reporting about 13.5V when in flight. I would assume this >should be around 14.5 or so. I think before this problem it did. Funny >the little things you start to notice when you actually have a problem. > >3) The main problem is that if under load, the system will "shut down" >the charging system intermittently and then come back online. Sometimes >in a rapid (5 secs or so) succession or sometimes in more erratic >unpredictable intervals. Like the flight back the other night, it acted up >then stayed online for the remainder of the flight. I'll see the voltage >annunciator come on and the voltage drop to 11.8 or 12...then it will go >back up to 13.5. It may stay for a while...the remainder of the >flight...or maybe 10 secs. It's crazy. > > I thought I had the alternator tested at one time and was told it > was fine. > >I also just replaced my main solenoid (it was going bad..wouldn't connect >when I turned the master on). That's fine now, but that didn't help the >problem either. > >This problem is driving me crazy. Any and all input would be appreciated. > >I'm almost convinced I'm never going to find the root if this >thing. Thanks again. I've never encountered a system problem that was not fixable. You don't say what kind of alternator. External or internally regulated? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:13 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Bob, I respect your opinion but I must make a distinction between designing systems vs. purchasing high dollar systems that you have really no practical way of modifying or changing. A system where failure is common vs. occasional. Most of the issues discussed on this site are based on simple boiler plate system design that can be tested thoroughly prior to full use. My fear is people will add these off the shelf products using the marketing as fact on units that seem to work and sometimes do for a short period of time, this leading toward a false sense of security. The bottom line is most of what is reported here is not opinion but fact of failure regard failure with out systematic data collection. For example I have experienced more then 20 hard failures of my BMA system while running side by side with a Chelton non-certified EFIS and an Advanced Flight System AF engine system with no failures at all on these unites over a period of 18 months and three hundred hours of in-flight time. Just to clarify! Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS At 08:31 PM 1/14/2008 -0500, you wrote: > > >I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and >I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue >Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead >and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! :-) >Sam What we're witnessing here is a "snowstorm" of anecdotal data and the attempts by many to deduce a "degree of goodness" for a product based on analysis of that data. In the TC aircraft world, we rely on repeatable experiments that put a product through a representative set of tests that benchmark performance. These tests are completely independent of the producer's talents for design, manufacturing and customer service. Complaints are valuable information but must be sorted for relevance to (1) science or (2) business model. The world's most elegant product is worthless when it cannot be supported by quality workmanship and honorable marketing. On the other hand, many a marginal and/or even dangerous product has gained a marketplace toe-hold when manufactured and promoted by persuasive individuals. Just watch late night TV for a host of examples for the later class of merchandise. We've all heard less than complimentary reports about Blue Mountain. I've received numerous stories from knowledgeable system integrators, pilots and marketing folks who had nothing but good wishes for success of this product. They wanted to sell it as a supporting system in their own airframes. All of these stories are dated. I would hope that Blue Mountain's longevity in the marketplace has more to do with IMPROVEMENTS to both their science and marketing than for an ability to squeeze, bottle and sell snake-oil. When evaluating the usefulness of anecdotal data from the field, one would do well to view that data through the filters of reasonableness. Does the data item make sense? The data items need to be sorted into two piles: (1) science and (2) production, marketing and customer service. Finally, one is well advised to deduce the story teller's intent . . . informative, humorous, persuasive or simply hurtful. If this sounds like more effort and skill than most of us are able to bring to the argument, the risk to value for participating in such discussions becomes obvious. It's an fundamental element of human nature that individuals with unhappy experiences will tend toward persuasive words intended to hurt. But without knowing the simple-ideas which support an individual's experience, the intent and value of their words is not calculable. I hope individuals who wish to contribute to the List's collective knowledge and understanding will do a bit of pre-filtering for their own words before committing them to the archives. Try to be informative as to fact and the outcomes of repeatable experiments. Avoid passing on information that was not observed/experienced first hand. Whether you support or disfavor a product or service, be specific as to the PERSONAL command of facts upon which you've based your opinion. Bob . . . 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:36 AM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Subject - Barry Controls Engine Mounts I have 4 new in box Barry Controls mounts. They are Barry Controls part number 94150-41. They are for the Lancair O-235, O-320, or O-360 per the Aircraft Spruce catalog. They sell them for $104.95 each. AeroCraftParts (Lancair) sells them for $95 each plus shipping in each case. You can have mine for $50 each and I will pay shipping. They have a CD of 0346. (Construction Date of 46th week of 2003) Tech support at BM says that they have a shelf life of 10 years. If you need to replace your mounts now or in the near future, you will not find a better deal. Thanks, Bill B ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS From: "John W. Cox" Brent, I think you might be missing something. Many are reading these posts and wondering the viability of a specific product. Greg does a sizzling hot job on a web page to promote his products (Marketing wise)but I have heard static for three years on service, tech support and product reliability. It is always great to hear of people who are happy. Knowing if they have 10 hours or 600 on the system helps establish a benchmark. I have a close friend that bought the highest end BMA four years ago for a tandem seat project rebuild. Two years ago, Greg said the equipment (New and in the box) was value-less and the sub-manufacturers had gone south. The owner had to pay twice and the aircraft is still yet to fly. These discussions tap on an important discussion point as firms such as AFS court larger suitors and companies like OP Technologies sell out to bigger fish. My question remains "Who will be here in three years and which products are well supported for the Experimental Build market. EFIS is grand but a shakeout is inevitable. John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I'm missing something here, Bruce. As I said, I HAVE owned (and still do) the product, you can see pictures of it on my website (listed below), so I'm not sure how this message is relevant. Or, were you not trying to make a relevant point?? http://www.velocityxl.com/EFIS_one.JPG B Quoting Bruce Peters : > Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You > know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to > anyone else cause it nust be true! > > On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell wrote: > > > bferrell@123mail.net> > > > > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I > > think > > that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, > > but > > I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first > > can > > mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of > > perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my > > discretion. They are certainly not for everyone. > > > > Brett > > www.velocityxl.com > > > > Quoting Mike : > > > > > > > > Henador, > > > > > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you > > > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have > > > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have > > > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read > > > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is > > > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds > > > then BMA is not for you.... > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS At 09:53 AM 1/15/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >I respect your opinion but I must make a distinction between designing >systems vs. purchasing high dollar systems that you have really no >practical way of modifying or changing. A system where failure is >common vs. occasional. Most of the issues discussed on this site are >based on simple boiler plate system design that can be tested thoroughly >prior to full use. My fear is people will add these off the shelf >products using the marketing as fact on units that seem to work and >sometimes do for a short period of time, this leading toward a false >sense of security. The bottom line is most of what is reported here is >not opinion but fact of failure regard failure with out systematic data >collection. For example I have experienced more then 20 hard failures >of my BMA system while running side by side with a Chelton non-certified >EFIS and an Advanced Flight System AF engine system with no failures at >all on these unites over a period of 18 months and three hundred hours >of in-flight time. Just to clarify! > >Mike I don't see where I've argued with you. Your data are first-hand, unarguable facts which should given due attention by folks who are making up their own minds as to how the best investment of $time$ is made for their project. I didn't intend to come down for or against Blue Mountain. The preponderance of evidence in the marketplace is decidedly not in their favor. My hope is that folks learn sift the clouds of floobydust that invariably arise when searching out useful data. This is especially important when the equipment is part of a closed loop stabilization and navigation system. Doing a reliable display based on rate sensors as opposed to gyros is an exceedingly non-trivial software task. Not only is there a need for robust sensing, interpretation, calculation for valid display, there's an equally critical task for sensing and notification of crew when the display is not valid. I've been intimately involved in programs that replaced iron gyros with laser rate sensors for the autopilots in 0.5M to 4.0M targets which maneuvered at up to 10Gs! I've watched those processes. We expended manpower and taxpayer dollars that would make most of the low-cost EFIS OBAM aircraft systems look like crystal sets. So in no way do I want to trivialize anyone's offering of hard data. I do want to encourage folks to make decisions based on hard data and to sift that data from information that is more emotional noise than data. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:33 AM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Henador, It has nothing to do with military experience, it has to do with the experience of the designer with systems that have flown and acquired time in an airborne environment. That environment is very different from a lab or a car. There are some useful and useless questions to ask, Useless: How many colors on the display Useful: What is the update rate of the display when using the full color palate? Useless: How fast is the processor? Useful: What is the latency from the air data or attitude sensor sensing a parameter to it being displayed when the system is displaying its most complex page? If more than 100ms you will notice the lag, it will be more difficult to fly the airplane than with a faster system). Useless: How fast does the internal data bus run at, what is the update rate of the screen? Useful: How many times a second does the flight data get updated on the screen when displaying the most complex page? If less than 20Hz (preferably 40 or 60Hz) you will notice jumpiness in the display. Useless: What language did you use for coding? Useful: What precautions did you take with the software and hardware designs to ensure accurate and reliable data is always presented to the pilot, and that any data that is unreliable or stale is not displayed? The point is airplane guys usually understand what is required from a system to allow a pilot to properly fly the airplane, what kind of dynamic response is desireable, and where to optimise the system at the design stage. Electronics guys might be tempted to use a better resolution screen, but not consider updates rates or latency in the basic systems architecture. Errors at the design stage are difficult to overcome during testing and development. Any company who claims you should buy their product because it has a big display that shows lots of data doesn't understand the task that display will have to perform! If they claim that the basic flight data is updated much more quickly than the graphics intensive map or terrain data, then that would make much more sense. It is really difficult for the average homebuilder to get a good assessment of the real world performance that might be offered by any particular EFIS or similar. There are very few comparative evaluations. One of the only factors is the skill and background of the folks who designed and built the equipment. Peter PS If anyone can answer the above questions for Blue Mountain (or any other EFIS) I, for one, would be interested. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff Sent: 15 January 2008 01:17 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Peter, Your view seems biased to me. You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes. I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products. That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism. I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows. They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys. If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc. These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly. It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not. Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 3:25:57 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I work in military avionics (I started out as an aerodynamicist); my view is that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFIS and autopilot products than electronics guys who move into airplanes. Ask about the background of the company who built the product and make a decision accordingly. I have no direct experience of BMA products, but their representatives at the various airshows did not talk enough 'airplane' for me. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sully Sent: 14 January 2008 04:20 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I wanted to find out if anyone has recent experience with performance and support from Blue Mountain. I have an opportunity to buy a EFIS/One from someone who hasn't been satisfied, but most of the negative posts I've seen, seem to be several months old. Any current info will appreciated. Sully -------- Sully RV-7 In-work Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157917#157917 Looking for last minute shopping deals? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS At 07:52 PM 1/15/2008 +0000, you wrote: > > >Henador, > >It has nothing to do with military experience, it has to do with the >experience of the designer with systems that have flown and acquired >time in an airborne environment. That environment is very different from >a lab or a car. > >There are some useful and useless questions to ask, > >Useless: How many colors on the display >Useful: What is the update rate of the display when using the full color >palate? >Useless: How fast is the processor? >Useful: What is the latency from the air data or attitude sensor sensing >a parameter to it being displayed when the system is displaying its most >complex page? If more than 100ms you will notice the lag, it will be >more difficult to fly the airplane than with a faster system). >Useless: How fast does the internal data bus run at, what is the update >rate of the screen? >Useful: How many times a second does the flight data get updated on the >screen when displaying the most complex page? If less than 20Hz >(preferably 40 or 60Hz) you will notice jumpiness in the display. >Useless: What language did you use for coding? >Useful: What precautions did you take with the software and hardware >designs to ensure accurate and reliable data is always presented to the >pilot, and that any data that is unreliable or stale is not displayed? > >The point is airplane guys usually understand what is required from a >system to allow a pilot to properly fly the airplane, what kind of >dynamic response is desireable, and where to optimise the system at the >design stage. Electronics guys might be tempted to use a better >resolution screen, but not consider updates rates or latency in the >basic systems architecture. Errors at the design stage are difficult to >overcome during testing and development. > >Any company who claims you should buy their product because it has a big >display that shows lots of data doesn't understand the task that display >will have to perform! If they claim that the basic flight data is >updated much more quickly than the graphics intensive map or terrain >data, then that would make much more sense. > >It is really difficult for the average homebuilder to get a good >assessment of the real world performance that might be offered by any >particular EFIS or similar. There are very few comparative evaluations. >One of the only factors is the skill and background of the folks who >designed and built the equipment. > >Peter Exactly! To your list of questions I would add: Has your product been designed to comply with design goals set forth in DO-160? If so, which levels and which chapters? Have any tests been conducted to confirm compliance? Does your product feature any form of data integrity monitoring? Does the software monitor internally or externally developed data for reasonableness? If any item becomes suspect, how is it handled in displays to the pilot? Are there provisions for useful if degraded performance if some feature of normal operations is no longer reliable? Are there any maneuvers that exceed the sensor/software ability to deduce true conditions? If the system falls out of bed, how fast and under what conditions might the user expect the system to get stood up again? There are probably more questions but these came to mind first. Peter is right, the average homebuilder should not be expected to know enough to ask such questions or understand the answers. But these ARE questions that should be addressed in detail in the product's published specifications, installation and service data. No details as to circuit design, software or even sources of components need be revealed. All these questions go to the designer's ability to do the job right and the manufacturer's ability and willingness to support it. The capable and honorable supplier will have no problems with answering them. These are exactly the kind of questions I'm expected to answer for clients . . . clients who couldn't care less about the gee-whiz and do care a lot about delivering to customer's expectations at a price he/she is pleased to pay. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:59 PM PST US From: "sam@fr8dog.net" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS No, my apologies, just tired of of vendors that stretch the truth, to sell there junk. You can find the answer to your questions if you read between the lines here on this fourm. These are the people that have been at your crossroads in life and taken both roads, at one time or another. Sam ---- Henador Titzoff wrote: ============ Sam, the advice on this list sometimes gets pretty ridiculous, like telling me to buy an EFIS that I don't need. What are you, some kind of control freak? Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: "sam@fr8dog.net" Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:31:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! :-) Sam ---- Henador Titzoff wrote: ============ Peter, Your view seems biased to me. You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes. I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products. That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism. I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows. They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys. If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc. These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly. It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not. Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 3:25:57 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I work in military avionics (I started out as an aerodynamicist); my view is that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFIS and autopilot products than electronics guys who move into airplanes. Ask about the background of the company who built the product and make a decision accordingly. I have no direct experience of BMA products, but their representatives at the various airshows did not talk enough 'airplane' for me. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sully Sent: 14 January 2008 04:20 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I wanted to find out if anyone has recent experience with performance and support from Blue Mountain. I have an opportunity to buy a EFIS/One from someone who hasn't been satisfied, but most of the negative posts I've seen, seem to be several months old. Any current info will appreciated. Sully -------- Sully RV-7 In-work Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:59 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Sam, you are a noble man. I must apologize to you, also. Well, you aren't the only one who's tired of vendors who don't deliver and when they do, they deliver crapp product. I believe we all are. The reason I've been abrupt with you and Peter is because I believe that both of you misread what I initially said. Nowhere in my response did I say that I wanted an EFIS. And nowhere did I defend or condone BMA products. What I simply said is that Peter is biased being a military guy and saying that only airplane guys know how to design autopilot and EFISs. Being a military guy has nothing to do with it unless you want to pay 85% slouches and 15% good guys to get the job done. Later on he makes the same mistake you made and tells me to blow off the advice of the people on this list and go buy BMA products. Again, I never said I wanted to buy BMA products nor do I condone them, because I have no direct experience with them. I plainly say that I do not have direct experience with them, but that I have seen BMA guys at airshows, and they seem to know what they're talking about. Anybody can talk good shiite, because they are salespeople and have static displays to show. This is true of any company. The only way to evaluate a good product is to try it out under normal and extended operating conditions. Nothing beats experience. What you hear on this email list is, as Bob said, lots of anecdotal data, no -prefiltering of data, and some good stuff. Often times, when people post to this and other lists, their intentions are to either sale, sale, sale what they bought regardless of how good or bad it is, or condemn, condemn, condemn for several reasons, some being questionable. P.S. I'm perfectly happy with the equipment I have. If I ever decide to move up in the EFIS world, I will ride shotgun in people's planes who have such equipment, then make up my own mind. I know enough EFIS owners already, and they all talk great about what they have (sale, sale, sale). Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: "sam@fr8dog.net" Cc: Henador Titzoff Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:02:22 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS No, my apologies, just tired of of vendors that stretch the truth, to sell there junk. You can find the answer to your questions if you read between the lines here on this fourm. These are the people that have been at your crossroads in life and taken both roads, at one time or another. Sam ---- Henador Titzoff wrote: ============ Sam, the advice on this list sometimes gets pretty ridiculous, like telling me to buy an EFIS that I don't need. What are you, some kind of control freak? Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: "sam@fr8dog.net" Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:31:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! :-) Sam ---- Henador Titzoff wrote: ============ Peter, Your view seems biased to me. You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes. I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products. That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism. I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows. They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys. If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc. These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly. It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not. Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 3:25:57 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I work in military avionics (I started out as an aerodynamicist); my view is that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFIS and autopilot products than electronics guys who move into airplanes. Ask about the background of the company who built the product and make a decision accordingly. I have no direct experience of BMA products, but their representatives at the various airshows did not talk enough 'airplane' for me. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sully Sent: 14 January 2008 04:20 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I wanted to find out if anyone has recent experience with performance and support from Blue Mountain. I have an opportunity to buy a EFIS/One from someone who hasn't been satisfied, but most of the negative posts I've seen, seem to be several months old. Any current info will appreciated. Sully -------- Sully RV-7 In-work Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:24 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Mike, I know you're not trying to be rude, but please go back and read what I said again. Nowhere does it say that I am in the market for an EFIS, BMA or whatever. Nowhere does it say that I am condoning BMA products. I did say that I've talked to their salespeople at airshows, and they seem to know what they're talking about. This does NOT amount to my condoning their products. Anybody can talk a good talk. My post was to contradict Peter about military guys and why companies get in trouble and nothing else. Have a wonderful evening, Mike and Peter and Sam. Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: Mike Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:41:50 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Henador, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds then BMA is not for you.... Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 6:17 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Peter, Your view seems biased to me. You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes. I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products. That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism. I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows. They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys. If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc. These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly. It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not. Henador ----- Original Message ---- From: Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 3:25:57 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I work in military avionics (I started out as an aerodynamicist); my view is that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFIS and autopilot products than electronics guys who move into airplanes. Ask about the background of the company who built the product and make a decision accordingly. I have no direct experience of BMA products, but their representatives at the various airshows did not talk enough 'airplane' for me. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sully Sent: 14 January 2008 04:20 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS I wanted to find out if anyone has recent experience with performance and support from Blue Mountain. I have an opportunity to buy a EFIS/One from someone who hasn't been satisfied, but most of the negative posts I've seen, seem to be several months old. Any current info will appreciated. Sully -------- Sully RV-7 In-work Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:46 PM PST US From: "William Gill" Subject: AeroElectric-List: IFR GPS requirements Hello All, I have a Bendix-King KLN 94 GPS (IFR certified unit) in an RV-7. During discussions with an FAA inspector, I was told that I was not allowed to use this unit for IFR use until I completed a 337 form with a field approval, and completed the required test flight. I was not aware that the experimental ships had to jump through the same hoops as the Type Certificated aircraft. Can this possibly be true? I welcome all input on this subject. Bill RV-7 Lee's Summit, MO ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:20 PM PST US From: "William Gill" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator / Charging issue Hello Steve, The 13.5 volt output appears to be too low, possibly due to a bad diode. The intermittent nature also could be due to excessive leakage from one or more of the other diodes when the alternator gets hot. It might be wise to take it to an alternator overhaul shop to be checked vs. the local auto parts establishment. What type of alternator do you have? Any cooling via blast tube? Please let us know what you find. Thanks. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Reeves Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator / Charging issue A while back my alternator decided to start cycling on and off every now and again, mostly when under load. It will never do it during a day flight, and only during the day when running strobes. I can induce it at night fairly easily sometimes with the navs, fuel pump, landing light, and panel lights (no strobes needed..they seem able to induce the problem by themselves). I was returning from Miss. a few nights ago and it decided to do this. I shut down the strobes and everything was fine (as usual). I turned the strobes back on and the last 30 min or so of the flight was uneventful. I installed a new B&C battery yesterday and the problem occurred again yesterday evening 1 time near the beginning of the flight, and more so on the ground after I landed and had the engine at idle power. I stayed in the pattern since I had a "known" electrical issue. Here are few things I may have forgotten to mention, and I can't be sure if this could be a cause of my problem. 2) I notice both my EI voltmeter as well as the Dynon (backup to my gyro ;) ) are reporting about 13.5V when in flight. I would assume this should be around 14.5 or so. I think before this problem it did. Funny the little things you start to notice when you actually have a problem. 3) The main problem is that if under load, the system will "shut down" the charging system intermittently and then come back online. Sometimes in a rapid (5 secs or so) succession or sometimes in more erratic unpredictable intervals. Like the flight back the other night, it acted up then stayed online for the remainder of the flight. I'll see the voltage annunciator come on and the voltage drop to 11.8 or 12...then it will go back up to 13.5. It may stay for a while...the remainder of the flight...or maybe 10 secs. It's crazy. I thought I had the alternator tested at one time and was told it was fine. I also just replaced my main solenoid (it was going bad..wouldn't connect when I turned the master on). That's fine now, but that didn't help the problem either. This problem is driving me crazy. Any and all input would be appreciated. I'm almost convinced I'm never going to find the root if this thing. Thanks again. Steve Reeves Glasair 38SR ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: IFR GPS requirements At 09:39 PM 1/15/2008 -0600, you wrote: >Hello All, > > >I have a Bendix-King KLN 94 GPS (IFR certified unit) in an RV-7. During >discussions with an FAA inspector, I was told that I was not allowed to >use this unit for IFR use until I completed a 337 form with a field >approval, and completed the required test flight. I was not aware that the >experimental ships had to jump through the same hoops as the Type >Certificated aircraft. Can this possibly be true? I welcome all input on >this subject. It would be interesting to see who he recommends for an IA to sign this off! Assuming you can get it submitted, it would be interesting to watch what happens to the document once it hit the appropriate offices for approval and filing. 337's are the equivalent of a one-time STC against a particular certificated airframe. The guys here tell me to install it, go fly it, satisfy yourself that it is functioning as advertised and be done with it. Be cautious about getting into any serious discussions with a bureaucrat. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:35 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT-- Solar panel overvoltage From: "vozzen" Sorry to drift off topic, but chalk it up to Remote Hangar Power-Supply Project. I've got a couple solar (PV) panels, each rated 48 watt, 3 amp @ 16 volts, 18-19 volts open circuit. Problem is that I bought an inverter that has a 15.5 high-voltage cutoff, so no worky for 110a/c. My question(s): If I got a "Solar Charge Controller", designed to limit charge into batteries, could I use it to supply the inverter ?? And how about a 12-v. resistive load, or pump/fan motors, (no inverter) that would pull down the voltage at max draw ?? ... assuming the charge controller could handle the current. Any other ideas for regulating 16 v down to a usable 13-14 (for 6 A.) Thanks in advance for any advice. --Richard V., 601xl in a cold shop in KC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=158464#158464 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:07 PM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 01/14/08 David, I have a different model PSE intercom in my Cessna. It has a failover mode that connects the radio directly to the headset when the intercom power is off. When you turn it on, some relays click and the intercom inserts itself into the radio to headset circuitry. So with the power off, you cannot measure a short. Try measuring for a short between the headset, mic and ptt leads to ground and see if you mis-wired something. PSE has great tech support. I spent quite a while talking with a tech named Brad when I had a weird incompatibility issue with the intercom and my headset. They will take your unit back for test and trade, but check all your wiring first. Just disconnect the connector at the back of the unit and search for grounds that are not supposed to be. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > Time: 05:43:02 AM PST US > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercom Troubleshooting Help Needed > From: "DaveG601XL" > > I put power to my PS Engineering PM501 intercom last night for the > first time and > have a problem that has me at a dead-end. When I powered it up, the > fuse blow > immediately. I metered the power lead to ground and got infinite resistance > which tells me that there are no dead shorts in the wiring. I moved > the power > circuit to a breaker, just to eliminate the fuse from contention, and it also > popped. Again, no short to ground with the meter. When the unit is switched > off, power can be applied and the breaker will stay latched. This > also appears > to tells me that there are no dead shorts in the wiring. It is only when > turned on that it blows. Is this a problem inside the box that I may not be > able to troubleshoot, let alone fix? Any thoughts on what my > options are here, > maybe something I have overlooked? > > David Gallagher > 601 XL, tail and wings completed, > fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT-- Solar panel overvoltage From: Ron Quillin At 20:16 1/15/2008, you wrote: > >Sorry to drift off topic, but chalk it up to Remote Hangar >Power-Supply Project. > >I've got a couple solar (PV) panels, each rated 48 watt, 3 amp @ 16 >volts, 18-19 volts open circuit. Problem is that I bought an >inverter that has a 15.5 high-voltage cutoff, so no worky for 110a/c. >My question(s): >If I got a "Solar Charge Controller", designed to limit charge into >batteries, could I use it to supply the inverter ?? > > And how about a 12-v. resistive load, or pump/fan motors, (no > inverter) that would pull down the voltage at max draw ?? ... > assuming the charge controller could handle the current. > >Any other ideas for regulating 16 v down to a usable 13-14 (for 6 A.) > >Thanks in advance for any advice. >--Richard V., 601xl in a cold shop in KC Why not just dump them into a battery and the inverter in parallel? Ron Q. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.