AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 02/01/08


Total Messages Posted: 21



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 06:39 AM - Re: Z Diagram Questions (bcondrey)
     3. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Maule Driver)
     5. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 12:36 PM - RYO Marker Beacon Antenna (Deems Davis)
     7. 01:08 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Mike Kimball)
     8. 01:24 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Mike Kimball)
     9. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration ()
    10. 01:53 PM - Re: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna (Mike Kimball)
    11. 01:54 PM - Re: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna (Mike Kimball)
    12. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Mike Kimball)
    13. 02:40 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Ken)
    14. 03:02 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Mike Kimball)
    15. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (steve)
    16. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Bret Smith)
    17. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Terry Watson)
    18. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
    19. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Allen Fulmer)
    20. 11:03 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
    21. 11:05 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:09:44 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Z Diagram Questions
    At 02:36 PM 1/31/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >One more question... The Z-19RB battery location is the same as for the >RV-10. Do you see any real advantage of running a #2AWG ground forward to >the forest of tab in a metal airplane rather than grounding locally? >There's plenty of conduit space space in my fuse, but would rather save >the weight as #2 is pretty heavy. I'm planning on running #2AWG forward to >the starter... > >Thanks, >Jay See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html Bob . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:39:31 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z Diagram Questions
    From: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
    Jay, I'm using a Z-14 in my RV-10. I have dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel (but with 2.25" ASI and ALT for backup). Given my absolute dependence on having juice flowing, it wasn't that much of a leap from Z-13/20 to Z-14. I have an electronic ignition on each battery bus and the panel "stuff" is split between the buses. When I did the allocations to each bus it was with consideration of what would happen "if". Given that, I can lose one bus in its entirety and still not be sweating even if I'm in the clag. Granted, if that happens I'll get on the ground and figure it out but it will be with the comfort of being able to pick which airport and approach I'll use. Looking at actual measured panel loads, it would be no big deal to downsize from a 60A main alternator to a 40A and the vacuum pad alternator from 20A to 8A. That would probably more than offset the additional cost/weight of the second battery, 2 contactors and related wire while still retaining huge redundancy. Bob #40105 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161821#161821


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:44:24 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Z Diagram Questions
    At 02:22 PM 1/31/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >f you have a vacuum pump pad open, an 8A >alternator is a whole lot lighter than >a second 17 a.h. battery, has indefinite >service life and unlimited energy for >continued flight. > > >> I do have one and I will consider this option. ??? What consideration of physics and operational philosophy prevents you from doing this right now? How does a second battery become more attractive than an engine driven power source that is lighter, performs better (unlimited energy, practically zero maintenance) and a fraction of the cost of ownership? >Z-19 is for electrically dependent automotive >conversions that CANNOT have a second alternator. > > >> That's fairly obvious once you understand what ECU and EFI acronyms > mean... However, the diagram nicely showed a rear battery mount just like > the RV10 requires (it's nose heavy). I had a lot of confusion until > someone pointed out to me that, in general, Z diagrams were written from > the view point of airplanes that use front-mounted batteries. It's not > always easy to tell which is which as "RB" only appears in the -19 as far > as it could see. You can mount the battery(ies) in the back for ANY of the Z-figures. If you're selecting Z-19RB just because of where the battery goes, then it's not clear that you understand what the z-figures are intended to illustrate. >Z-13/8 can be used with ANY combination of ignition >systems. For the lightest weight, lowest cost of ownership >and highest reliability, Z-13/8 with one battery is your >best choice. > > >> I agree in principle that this would be the best choice. However - I > spoke with the P-Mag guys and the 6 cylinder version is -not- a shipping > product (or anytime soon either). Since vaporware isn't a good power > source, I'll build my electrical system to not preclude this as a future > upgrade. Don't understand. Conversations with Emagair have nothing to do with your architecture decision. ANY electronic ignition including Emags will operate happily from any source of 12 volts be it one of the z-figures . . . or a 12-v lantern battery. If you "agree in principal" which I presume is an acknowledgement of value for seeking the elegant solution, then what information are you working with that makes the less elegant solution more attractive? >A Lancair IVP with full up IFR panel both >sides and intended to be used in a manner that >pushes the comfort zone for all weather flight. >Since that drawing was published, I've had only >3 or 4 readers who were building that kind of >airplane with that kind of mission. > > >> Maybe, but I'm willing to bet there are more than a couple of RV10 > builders considering this route. Are you guys out there lurking? :-) Conversations with other RV10 builders have nothing to do with your architecture decision. What failures do you anticipate and under what flight conditions that you now believe Z19RB or even Z14 is a better choice than Z13/8? This is the discussion that should drive choice of architecture. >Look at the specs for an ANL published at: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL_Specs.pdf > > >> Thanks. It's a bit overwhelming how many documents are available. I'm > not complaining as it's better to know the information must be out there > than to simply "guess" and be sorry later! But that illustrates my whole point. There is a wealth of published data out there to help you make considered decisions based on understanding of simple-ideas from which repeatable experiments (useful inventions) are assembled. I totally agree that "guessing" is bad policy. But "going with the flow" may not be much better. If it's "overwhelming" to exploit these resources to augment your own understanding, then you're reduced to decision making by consensus. Problem is, those in which you place your trust may be no better informed than you choose to be. This places you in the position of doing what feels best. The result could become the equivalent of using a dump truck to tow your trash down to the curb or using a back-hoe to plant petunias. They DO get the job done but the cost of ownership is much larger than it needs to be. Know that a tiny fraction of bad days in the cockpit resulting in bent airplanes and/or people have root causes in electrical system problems. The vast majority of those events that ARE unhappy could be mitigated if not eliminated a little preventative maintenance or improved understanding. Virtually all of the dark-n-stormy night stories I read and accidents I've investigated revealed severe lack of understanding . . . a condition that is the EASIEST to avoid and MOST likely to have reduced or even prevented the scenario from going to it's unpleasant conclusion. Hundreds of thousands of TC aircraft have been successfully flown in the conditions you're anticipating for nearly 100 years. This largely event free outcome is in spite of being burdened with crummy batteries, poor preventative maintenance and generators/alternators that were not much more robust than the batteries. If you take a stock 1970 C-172 and do nothing more than add low volts warning and put in a PROPERLY MAINTAINED RG battery and top of with some understanding of system physics, I suggest that virtually ALL the dark-n-stormy night stories in which this genre'of electrical system has center stage would never have been written. Now we have alternators that run past TBO on engines, second alternators that provide unlimited endurance, and the freedom to craft architectures that optimize performance while suffering any failure of a component. As OBAM aircraft builders, we're encouraged to understand things about our airplanes that our spam-can-bound brothers are NOT required to know. This is an opportunity to take out lots of weight, cost and $time$ to maintain while boosting system reliability to numbers the TC guys will be hard pressed to achieve . . . EVER. That's what we're all here for. Not a pool of consensus in which one simply puts a dip-stick. This List is where one can find assistance in achieving lowest weight, lowest volume, lowest parts count, lowest cost of ownership, and highest system reliability based on an OPTIMAL combination of simple-ideas and repeatable- experiments. Overwhelming? Sure . . . we are ALL there too at some point in our experiences. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:39:53 AM PST US
    From: "Maule Driver" <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Z Diagram Questions
    Here is my interpretation of same: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=43554&row=12 Thanks Bob. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net> >>One more question... The Z-19RB battery location is the same as for the >>RV-10. Do you see any real advantage of running a #2AWG ground forward to >>the forest of tab in a metal airplane rather than grounding locally? >>There's plenty of conduit space space in my fuse, but would rather save >>the weight as #2 is pretty heavy. I'm planning on running #2AWG forward to >>the starter... >> >>Thanks, >>Jay > > See > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html > > Bob . . . > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:38:59 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Z Diagram Questions
    At 06:36 AM 2/1/2008 -0800, you wrote: ><bob.condrey@baesystems.com> > >Jay, > >I'm using a Z-14 in my RV-10. I have dual electronic ignitions and an all >electric panel (but with 2.25" ASI and ALT for backup). Given my absolute >dependence on having juice flowing, it wasn't that much of a leap from >Z-13/20 to Z-14. I have an electronic ignition on each battery bus and >the panel "stuff" is split between the buses. When I did the allocations >to each bus it was with consideration of what would happen "if". Given >that, I can lose one bus in its entirety and still not be sweating even if >I'm in the clag. Granted, if that happens I'll get on the ground and >figure it out but it will be with the comfort of being able to pick which >airport and approach I'll use. > >Looking at actual measured panel loads, it would be no big deal to >downsize from a 60A main alternator to a 40A and the vacuum pad alternator >from 20A to 8A. That would probably more than offset the additional >cost/weight of the second battery, 2 contactors and related wire while >still retaining huge redundancy. > >Bob #40105 A considered analysis of a repeatable experiment. Thank you. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:36:40 PM PST US
    From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
    Subject: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna
    I have been told that you can make an acceptable marker beacon antenna from a stripped piece of approx 40" coax, mounted horizontally within a fiberglass wingtip. So my questions are - 1. Is 40" the correct length? 2. Is it acceptable to strip only the outer coax covering and the shield material leaving the insulator in place which surrounds the center conductor? Deems Davis >


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:08:20 PM PST US
    From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
    Subject: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
    Holley 650 double pumper with a special plate that goes between the float bowl and mixture plate that gives me mixture control in the cockpit. I am also running dual electric fuel pumps with one way check valves. I have eliminated the fuel pumps as the source. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:38 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation Sounds fine.. What kind of fuel delivery do you have? Carb or FI? -25F? That's just silly. :) Matt- > > Taylor 409 spiral wound wires. Supposed to be very good wires and good > for > noise suppression. I'm pretty sure I did check the noise with the antenna > disconnected and the noise is gone. I'll recheck that when it warms up > (-25 > F today and the near future here in Fairbanks, AK and the plane is > outside) > That's why I am interested in possible antenna mounting issues. Thanks. > Keep the suggestions coming. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt > Prather > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:05 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation > > <mprather@spro.net> > > Hi Mike, > > Are you using (have you tried) spiral wound wires? I am running an old > LSE ignition on my O-200 powered Varieze. This model of LSE has an MSD > amplifier and a pair of MSD coils. When I installed the system I made > custom length Moroso spiral core wires connected to Nippon Denso > (resistor) plugs. > > The electronic ignition is _very_ quiet compared to the magneto. > > Disconnect the antenna leads from the back of the radio. If the noise is > gone, the propagation mode is radiated... > > I have heard of people having noise problems when using solid core wires. > > > Regards, > > Matt- > > >> I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the >> AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000th radio >> noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my >> uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using >> an >> MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two coils, >> one >> dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires and >> resistor >> plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one system or the >> other which basically just switches modules and coils. I have the >> following >> avionics which were professionally prewired for me so all I had to do >> was >> hook up power, ground and antenna wires. >> >> Garmin 340 Audio Panel >> King KX-165 Nav/Com >> King 76C Transponder >> Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI >> >> My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a >> grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded, >> along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to >> the >> firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the firewall >> is >> directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge cable. I have >> filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the source. (I ran >> the >> engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and the alternator drive >> belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I detect no noise from the >> stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I used RG-142/400 antenna >> wire. >> The noise is present with or without the audio panel/intercom. I made >> sure >> none of the headset jacks were grounding to the airframe and the noise >> is >> present in all jacks. The noise is much worse on the NAV side unless >> there >> is voice on the NAV frequency, then the noise is about the same. The >> comm >> antenna is on the cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the >> vertical >> stab. The noise changes in pitch with engine RPM. It's a sort of whine >> with static. My transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and >> clear. >> >> The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each >> sidewall >> just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if I have a >> compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax connectors >> that >> are nearby. I wouldn't put it past me to screw up more than one coax >> connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the wires. >> Someone >> told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM ground wire because >> it >> might be grounded through the mounting tray and the additional ground >> might >> set up a loop. I haven't tried that yet. I remember reading about >> making >> sure the antenna itself was grounded but I think I remember a cork >> gasket >> that went under it before mounting to the airframe. Might there be a >> problem with the way I mounted the comm and nav antennas themselves? If >> the >> problem is radiated from the coils, ignition wires, or distributor I'm >> screwed. Shielding those will be a huge problem. >> >> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Mike Kimball >> > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:24:42 PM PST US
    From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
    Subject: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
    A different set of spark plug wires is certainly a very simple thing to try. Just costs money, but I think I will try the blue max wires since they are working for you. If I still have noise, I will relocate one of the ignition boxes to outside the firewall. If that solves the problem I will relocate the second box outside the firewall. Nice plane! Nice engine installation! Mike _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation Hi Mike. I have almost the exact same set up as yours, altho mine is a stroker 347 all aluminum Ford. Both my ignition boxes are on the outside of the firewall along side the coil switcher. I did use the high dollar blue max racing ignition wires and I have no noise in any of my radios or intercom. My gut feeling is the noise is in the wires, You can go to my website and browse through the pics and see how mine is set up. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote: I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000th radio noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using an MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two coils, one dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires and resistor plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one system or the other which basically just switches modules and coils. I have the following avionics which were professionally prewired for me so all I had to do was hook up power, ground and antenna wires. Garmin 340 Audio Panel King KX-165 Nav/Com King 76C Transponder Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded, along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to the firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the firewall is directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge cable. I have filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the source. (I ran the engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and the alternator drive belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I detect no noise from the stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I used RG-142/400 antenna wire. The noise is present with or without the audio panel/intercom. I made sure none of the headset jacks were grounding to the airframe and the noise is present in all jacks. The noise is much worse on the NAV side unless there is voice on the NAV frequency, then the noise is about the same. The comm antenna is on the cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the vertical stab. The noise changes in pitch with engine RPM. It's a sort of whine with static. My transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and clear. The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each sidewall just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if I have a compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax connectors that are nearby. I wouldn't put it past me to screw up more than one coax connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the wires. Someone told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM ground wire because it might be grounded through the mounting tray and the additional ground might set up a loop. I haven't tried that yet. I remember reading about making sure the antenna itself was grounded but I think I remember a cork gasket that went under it before mounting to the airframe. Might there be a problem with the way I mounted the comm and nav antennas themselves? If the problem is radiated from the coils, ignition wires, or distributor I'm screwed. Shielding those will be a huge problem. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Mike Kimball _____________________________________________________________ Handyman Franchises. Click Here. <http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4vCwbLVjypXFjXxKF2iwcp pWxzzzrqwo8CqMTCsrw8RcM6Hf/>


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:37:53 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in my basement if anyone really wants to use them. These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner, but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schlatterer Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the attachment. I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive but would not burn. I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached. Just what I was told on this list back then. Bill S 7a -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of electronic ignition noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd do it again. I don't have mags. Ken > > >> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if sensor leads are >> too close to high current (fat) wires. >> Dale Ensing >> > > > Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main bus and e-bus feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine sensors). No really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough current here for me to need to make a separate penetration to keep these wires separate? > > Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do need to make > 2 more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100). > > Thanks, > > -------- > Jim McChesney > Tucson, AZ > RV-7A Finishing Kit


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:53:27 PM PST US
    From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
    Subject: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna
    Bob Archer makes one out of copper tape and it is 40 inches long. Apparently that is the proper length for 1/4 wavelength. Here is a link to a document with information about his antennas for composite airplanes and contact info for him. He might even be willing to talk to you about making your own even though he'll be talking himself out of a sale. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna I have been told that you can make an acceptable marker beacon antenna from a stripped piece of approx 40" coax, mounted horizontally within a fiberglass wingtip. So my questions are - 1. Is 40" the correct length? 2. Is it acceptable to strip only the outer coax covering and the shield material leaving the insulator in place which surrounds the center conductor? Deems Davis >


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:54:04 PM PST US
    From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
    Subject: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna
    Forgot the link. It's http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/PRODS2.doc Mike -----Original Message----- From: Mike Kimball [mailto:mkimball@gci.net] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna Bob Archer makes one out of copper tape and it is 40 inches long. Apparently that is the proper length for 1/4 wavelength. Here is a link to a document with information about his antennas for composite airplanes and contact info for him. He might even be willing to talk to you about making your own even though he'll be talking himself out of a sale. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna I have been told that you can make an acceptable marker beacon antenna from a stripped piece of approx 40" coax, mounted horizontally within a fiberglass wingtip. So my questions are - 1. Is 40" the correct length? 2. Is it acceptable to strip only the outer coax covering and the shield material leaving the insulator in place which surrounds the center conductor? Deems Davis >


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:35:41 PM PST US
    From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:35 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in my basement if anyone really wants to use them. These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner, but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schlatterer Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the attachment. I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive but would not burn. I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached. Just what I was told on this list back then. Bill S 7a -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of electronic ignition noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd do it again. I don't have mags. Ken > > >> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if sensor leads are >> too close to high current (fat) wires. >> Dale Ensing >> > > > Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main bus and e-bus feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine sensors). No really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough current here for me to need to make a separate penetration to keep these wires separate? > > Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do need to make > 2 more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100). > > Thanks, > > -------- > Jim McChesney > Tucson, AZ > RV-7A Finishing Kit


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:40:41 PM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
    If the noise is still there with the antennae disconnected from the radios then I presume it really is radiated. Bob often recommends running things off a separate battery to be certain the noise is not conducting in on the 12 volt supply. I don't see specs for the Taylor 409 spiral wound wires. They sound like quality wires though and I believe others have used them successfully. Is the problem ever related to wire assembly? I wanted to make my own wires but Magnecor gave me decent pricing and indicated they had a lot of problems with customer assembled wires. Also I've heard a few guys say they had noise problems with specific spark plugs such as iridium. Could radiated noise be harmonics coming from the on off pulses in the 12 volt wiring to the ignition coils? I can imagine that but I don't know if it is likely. Regarding the antenna, I followed Bob's advice and did not use any gaskets under the antenna. Made sure it contacted bare metal where the bolts went through the skin and added some sealant around the outer edge. Again I don't know if poor antenna grounding can cause this kind of issue though? If the antenna coax checks out OK with an ohm meter (continuity of core and shield and no shorts)I'd guess the problem is unlikely to be the coax connectors. Mike - to help me follow this discussion - the ignition coils and joiner are ahead of the firewall aren't they? Ken n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > Hi Mike. I have almost the exact same set up as yours, altho mine is a > stroker 347 all aluminum Ford. Both my ignition boxes are on the > outside of the firewall along side the coil switcher. I did use the high > dollar blue max racing ignition wires and I have no noise in any of my > radios or intercom. My gut feeling is the noise is in the wires, You can > go to my website and browse through the pics and see how mine is set up. > > do not archive > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > -- Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote: > > I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the > AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000^th radio > noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my > uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using > an MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two > coils, one dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires > and resistor plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one > system or the other which basically just switches modules and coils. I > have the following avionics which were professionally prewired for me so > all I had to do was hook up power, ground and antenna wires. > > > > Garmin 340 Audio Panel > > King KX-165 Nav/Com > > King 76C Transponder > > Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI > > > > My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a > grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded, > along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to > the firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the > firewall is directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge > cable. I have filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the > source. (I ran the engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and > the alternator drive belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I > detect no noise from the stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I > used RG-142/400 antenna wire. The noise is present with or without the > audio panel/intercom. I made sure none of the headset jacks were > grounding to the airframe and the noise is present in all jacks. The > noise is much worse on the NAV side unless there is voice on the NAV > frequency, then the noise is about the same. The comm antenna is on the > cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the vertical stab. The noise > changes in pitch with engine RPM. Its a sort of whine with static. My > transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and clear. > > > > The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each > sidewall just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if > I have a compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax > connectors that are nearby. I wouldnt put it past me to screw up more > than one coax connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the > wires. Someone told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM > ground wire because it might be grounded through the mounting tray and > the additional ground might set up a loop. I havent tried that yet. I > remember reading about making sure the antenna itself was grounded but I > think I remember a cork gasket that went under it before mounting to the > airframe. Might there be a problem with the way I mounted the comm and > nav antennas themselves? If the problem is radiated from the coils, > ignition wires, or distributor Im screwed. Shielding those will be a > huge problem. > > > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Mike Kimball >


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:02:45 PM PST US
    From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
    Subject: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
    Yes. The coils and joiner are on the engine side of the firewall. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation If the noise is still there with the antennae disconnected from the radios then I presume it really is radiated. Bob often recommends running things off a separate battery to be certain the noise is not conducting in on the 12 volt supply. I don't see specs for the Taylor 409 spiral wound wires. They sound like quality wires though and I believe others have used them successfully. Is the problem ever related to wire assembly? I wanted to make my own wires but Magnecor gave me decent pricing and indicated they had a lot of problems with customer assembled wires. Also I've heard a few guys say they had noise problems with specific spark plugs such as iridium. Could radiated noise be harmonics coming from the on off pulses in the 12 volt wiring to the ignition coils? I can imagine that but I don't know if it is likely. Regarding the antenna, I followed Bob's advice and did not use any gaskets under the antenna. Made sure it contacted bare metal where the bolts went through the skin and added some sealant around the outer edge. Again I don't know if poor antenna grounding can cause this kind of issue though? If the antenna coax checks out OK with an ohm meter (continuity of core and shield and no shorts)I'd guess the problem is unlikely to be the coax connectors. Mike - to help me follow this discussion - the ignition coils and joiner are ahead of the firewall aren't they? Ken n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > Hi Mike. I have almost the exact same set up as yours, altho mine is a > stroker 347 all aluminum Ford. Both my ignition boxes are on the > outside of the firewall along side the coil switcher. I did use the high > dollar blue max racing ignition wires and I have no noise in any of my > radios or intercom. My gut feeling is the noise is in the wires, You can > go to my website and browse through the pics and see how mine is set up. > > do not archive > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > -- Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote: > > I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the > AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000^th radio > noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my > uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using > an MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two > coils, one dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires > and resistor plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one > system or the other which basically just switches modules and coils. I > have the following avionics which were professionally prewired for me so > all I had to do was hook up power, ground and antenna wires. > > > > Garmin 340 Audio Panel > > King KX-165 Nav/Com > > King 76C Transponder > > Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI > > > > My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a > grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded, > along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to > the firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the > firewall is directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge > cable. I have filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the > source. (I ran the engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and > the alternator drive belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I > detect no noise from the stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I > used RG-142/400 antenna wire. The noise is present with or without the > audio panel/intercom. I made sure none of the headset jacks were > grounding to the airframe and the noise is present in all jacks. The > noise is much worse on the NAV side unless there is voice on the NAV > frequency, then the noise is about the same. The comm antenna is on the > cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the vertical stab. The noise > changes in pitch with engine RPM. It's a sort of whine with static. My > transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and clear. > > > > The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each > sidewall just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if > I have a compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax > connectors that are nearby. I wouldn't put it past me to screw up more > than one coax connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the > wires. Someone told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM > ground wire because it might be grounded through the mounting tray and > the additional ground might set up a loop. I haven't tried that yet. I > remember reading about making sure the antenna itself was grounded but I > think I remember a cork gasket that went under it before mounting to the > airframe. Might there be a problem with the way I mounted the comm and > nav antennas themselves? If the problem is radiated from the coils, > ignition wires, or distributor I'm screwed. Shielding those will be a > huge problem. > > > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Mike Kimball >


    Message 15


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    Time: 03:34:53 PM PST US
    From: steve <stevea@svpal.org>
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    These are what I installed. Buy direct from EPM or get them through Aircraft Spruce. http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html The idea here is to buy time to shut off the fuel and get the airplane on the ground in the event of an in flight engine fire. Aluminum, plastic, brass, and zinc/aluminum (conduit fittings) will fail catastrophically well below the temperature at which gasoline burns. Steel (stainless or non-stainless) will withstand that temperature much longer, allowing for a better chance at surviving the situation. It is called a "firewall" for a reason. Steve A RV-6A Mike Kimball wrote: > > Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings? > > Mike


    Message 16


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    Time: 03:38:25 PM PST US
    From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb@tds.net>
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    Mike, Here is one example. Hopefully this discussion will shake out some other "less expensive" options. http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html Bret Smith RV-9A N16BL Blue Ridge, Ga www.FlightInnovations.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Kimball Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings? Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:35 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in my basement if anyone really wants to use them. These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner, but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schlatterer Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the attachment. I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive but would not burn. I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached. Just what I was told on this list back then. Bill S 7a -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of electronic ignition noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd do it again. I don't have mags. Ken > > >> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if sensor leads are >> too close to high current (fat) wires. >> Dale Ensing >> > > > Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main bus and e-bus feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine sensors). No really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough current here for me to need to make a separate penetration to keep these wires separate? > > Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do need to make > 2 more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100). > > Thanks, > > -------- > Jim McChesney > Tucson, AZ > RV-7A Finishing Kit


    Message 17


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    Time: 04:06:18 PM PST US
    From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    This is what I used and I like them. I bought the middle size, hoping that two of them would be big enough and that it would be cheaper than the bigger ones. Hindsight says that the biggest ones would have been better for me. Terry RV-8A Wiring -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration These are what I installed. Buy direct from EPM or get them through Aircraft Spruce. http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html The idea here is to buy time to shut off the fuel and get the airplane on the ground in the event of an in flight engine fire. Aluminum, plastic, brass, and zinc/aluminum (conduit fittings) will fail catastrophically well below the temperature at which gasoline burns. Steel (stainless or non-stainless) will withstand that temperature much longer, allowing for a better chance at surviving the situation. It is called a "firewall" for a reason. Steve A RV-6A Mike Kimball wrote: > > Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings? > > Mike


    Message 18


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    Time: 06:34:34 PM PST US
    From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    In a message dated 02/01/2008 3:40:03 PM Central Standard Time, longg@pjm.com writes: I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical contractors? OK folks- I've been watching this pass-thru stuff for quite a while now (years, in fact) and while building my plane, solved the issue to my satisfaction with the following: _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5006_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5006) _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5007_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5007) _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5517_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5517) For use by a fellow builder, I've had additional copies of this made in the size shown and slightly larger to accomodate fatter/more wires, and the extra parts I had cut have been hanging on the wall of my shop for some time, looking for a home. I had no intention of "marketing" this, but if there is any interest, I'd gladly send what I have to those interested, provided my costs were covered. I have theorized some improvements and might even consider going into production if y'all think it would be useful. I could provide fotos of the newer installation to those interested. It ain't rocket science, it just works... >From The PossumWorks in TN, Mark Phillips, RV-6A N51PW "Mojo" (she's a good girl!) _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/) **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48)


    Message 19


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    Time: 07:58:13 PM PST US
    From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Firewall penetration
    For some reason this link hasn't worked for the last few days from Vansairforce.net but I have just recently bought one of their stainless firewall penetrations. They only have 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" i.d. versions. Kind of pricey but will certainly do the job. Also just ordered a similar 0.90 i.d. firewall penetration from SafeAir1 at http://www.safeair1.com/index.htm. Allen Fulmer RV7 Wiring and plumbing >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Mike >>>Kimball >>>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:26 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration >>> >>> >>><mkimball@gci.net> >>> >>>Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings? >>> >>>Mike >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>>longg@pjm.com >>>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:35 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration >>> >>> >>>I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so >>>cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical >>>contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in >>>my basement >>>if anyone really wants to use them. >>> >>>These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner, >>>but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your >>>family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying >>>something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On >>>Behalf Of Bill >>>Schlatterer >>>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration >>> >>> >>>Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago >>>using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the >>>attachment. >>>I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast >>>steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would >>>actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the >>>steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive >>>but would not >>>burn. >>> >>>I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention >>>it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached. >>> >>>Just what I was told on this list back then. >>> >>>Bill S >>>7a >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On >>>Behalf Of Ken >>>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM >>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration >>> >>> >>>FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same >>>opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It >>>really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during >>>cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of >>>electronic ignition >>>noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd >>>do it again. >>>I don't have mags. >>>Ken >>>> >>>> >>>>> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if >>>sensor leads are >>>>> too close to high current (fat) wires. >>>>> Dale Ensing >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main >>>bus and e-bus >>>feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine >>>sensors). No >>>really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough >>>current here for me to need to make a separate penetration >>>to keep these >>>wires separate? >>>> >>>> Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do >>>need to make >>>> 2 >>>more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100). >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Jim McChesney >>>> Tucson, AZ >>>> RV-7A Finishing Kit >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:03:20 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
    Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. 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You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive


    Message 21


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    Time: 11:05:33 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
    Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive




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