Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:39 AM - Re: Z Diagram Questions (bcondrey)
3. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Maule Driver)
5. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Z Diagram Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:36 PM - RYO Marker Beacon Antenna (Deems Davis)
7. 01:08 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Mike Kimball)
8. 01:24 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Mike Kimball)
9. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration ()
10. 01:53 PM - Re: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna (Mike Kimball)
11. 01:54 PM - Re: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna (Mike Kimball)
12. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Mike Kimball)
13. 02:40 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Ken)
14. 03:02 PM - Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation (Mike Kimball)
15. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (steve)
16. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Bret Smith)
17. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Terry Watson)
18. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
19. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Firewall penetration (Allen Fulmer)
20. 11:03 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:05 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Z Diagram Questions |
At 02:36 PM 1/31/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>One more question... The Z-19RB battery location is the same as for the
>RV-10. Do you see any real advantage of running a #2AWG ground forward to
>the forest of tab in a metal airplane rather than grounding locally?
>There's plenty of conduit space space in my fuse, but would rather save
>the weight as #2 is pretty heavy. I'm planning on running #2AWG forward to
>the starter...
>
>Thanks,
>Jay
See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Z Diagram Questions |
Jay,
I'm using a Z-14 in my RV-10. I have dual electronic ignitions and an all electric
panel (but with 2.25" ASI and ALT for backup). Given my absolute dependence
on having juice flowing, it wasn't that much of a leap from Z-13/20 to Z-14.
I have an electronic ignition on each battery bus and the panel "stuff" is
split between the buses. When I did the allocations to each bus it was with
consideration of what would happen "if". Given that, I can lose one bus in its
entirety and still not be sweating even if I'm in the clag. Granted, if that
happens I'll get on the ground and figure it out but it will be with the comfort
of being able to pick which airport and approach I'll use.
Looking at actual measured panel loads, it would be no big deal to downsize from
a 60A main alternator to a 40A and the vacuum pad alternator from 20A to 8A.
That would probably more than offset the additional cost/weight of the second
battery, 2 contactors and related wire while still retaining huge redundancy.
Bob #40105
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161821#161821
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Z Diagram Questions |
At 02:22 PM 1/31/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>f you have a vacuum pump pad open, an 8A
>alternator is a whole lot lighter than
>a second 17 a.h. battery, has indefinite
>service life and unlimited energy for
>continued flight.
>
> >> I do have one and I will consider this option.
??? What consideration of physics and operational
philosophy prevents you from doing this right
now? How does a second battery become more attractive
than an engine driven power source that is lighter,
performs better (unlimited energy, practically
zero maintenance) and a fraction of the cost of
ownership?
>Z-19 is for electrically dependent automotive
>conversions that CANNOT have a second alternator.
>
> >> That's fairly obvious once you understand what ECU and EFI acronyms
> mean... However, the diagram nicely showed a rear battery mount just like
> the RV10 requires (it's nose heavy). I had a lot of confusion until
> someone pointed out to me that, in general, Z diagrams were written from
> the view point of airplanes that use front-mounted batteries. It's not
> always easy to tell which is which as "RB" only appears in the -19 as far
> as it could see.
You can mount the battery(ies) in the back for ANY
of the Z-figures. If you're selecting Z-19RB just
because of where the battery goes, then it's
not clear that you understand what the z-figures
are intended to illustrate.
>Z-13/8 can be used with ANY combination of ignition
>systems. For the lightest weight, lowest cost of ownership
>and highest reliability, Z-13/8 with one battery is your
>best choice.
>
> >> I agree in principle that this would be the best choice. However - I
> spoke with the P-Mag guys and the 6 cylinder version is -not- a shipping
> product (or anytime soon either). Since vaporware isn't a good power
> source, I'll build my electrical system to not preclude this as a future
> upgrade.
Don't understand. Conversations with Emagair have
nothing to do with your architecture decision.
ANY electronic ignition including Emags will
operate happily from any source of 12 volts be
it one of the z-figures . . . or a 12-v lantern
battery. If you "agree in principal" which I
presume is an acknowledgement of value for
seeking the elegant solution, then what information
are you working with that makes the less elegant
solution more attractive?
>A Lancair IVP with full up IFR panel both
>sides and intended to be used in a manner that
>pushes the comfort zone for all weather flight.
>Since that drawing was published, I've had only
>3 or 4 readers who were building that kind of
>airplane with that kind of mission.
>
> >> Maybe, but I'm willing to bet there are more than a couple of RV10
> builders considering this route. Are you guys out there lurking? :-)
Conversations with other RV10 builders have
nothing to do with your architecture decision.
What failures do you anticipate and under what
flight conditions that you now believe Z19RB
or even Z14 is a better choice than Z13/8?
This is the discussion that should drive choice of
architecture.
>Look at the specs for an ANL published at:
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL_Specs.pdf
>
> >> Thanks. It's a bit overwhelming how many documents are available. I'm
> not complaining as it's better to know the information must be out there
> than to simply "guess" and be sorry later!
But that illustrates my whole point. There is
a wealth of published data out there to help you
make considered decisions based on understanding
of simple-ideas from which repeatable experiments
(useful inventions) are assembled. I totally agree
that "guessing" is bad policy. But "going with
the flow" may not be much better.
If it's "overwhelming" to exploit these resources
to augment your own understanding, then you're
reduced to decision making by consensus.
Problem is, those in which you place your trust
may be no better informed than you choose to
be. This places you in the position of doing
what feels best. The result could become the
equivalent of using a dump truck to tow your
trash down to the curb or using a back-hoe to
plant petunias. They DO get the job done but
the cost of ownership is much larger than it
needs to be.
Know that a tiny fraction of bad days in the
cockpit resulting in bent airplanes and/or
people have root causes in electrical system
problems. The vast majority of those events
that ARE unhappy could be mitigated if not
eliminated a little preventative maintenance
or improved understanding. Virtually all of
the dark-n-stormy night stories I read and
accidents I've investigated revealed severe
lack of understanding . . . a condition that
is the EASIEST to avoid and MOST likely to
have reduced or even prevented the scenario
from going to it's unpleasant conclusion.
Hundreds of thousands of TC aircraft have been
successfully flown in the conditions you're
anticipating for nearly 100 years. This largely
event free outcome is in spite of being burdened
with crummy batteries, poor preventative
maintenance and generators/alternators that
were not much more robust than the batteries.
If you take a stock 1970 C-172 and do nothing
more than add low volts warning and put in
a PROPERLY MAINTAINED RG battery and top
of with some understanding of system physics,
I suggest that virtually ALL the dark-n-stormy
night stories in which this genre'of electrical
system has center stage would never have been
written.
Now we have alternators that run past TBO
on engines, second alternators that provide
unlimited endurance, and the freedom to craft
architectures that optimize performance while
suffering any failure of a component. As OBAM
aircraft builders, we're encouraged to understand
things about our airplanes that our spam-can-bound
brothers are NOT required to know.
This is an opportunity to take out lots of
weight, cost and $time$ to maintain while boosting
system reliability to numbers the TC guys
will be hard pressed to achieve . . . EVER.
That's what we're all here for. Not a pool of
consensus in which one simply puts a dip-stick.
This List is where one can find assistance in
achieving lowest weight, lowest volume, lowest
parts count, lowest cost of ownership, and
highest system reliability based on an OPTIMAL
combination of simple-ideas and repeatable-
experiments.
Overwhelming? Sure . . . we are ALL there
too at some point in our experiences.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Z Diagram Questions |
Here is my interpretation of same:
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=43554&row=12
Thanks Bob.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>>One more question... The Z-19RB battery location is the same as for the
>>RV-10. Do you see any real advantage of running a #2AWG ground forward to
>>the forest of tab in a metal airplane rather than grounding locally?
>>There's plenty of conduit space space in my fuse, but would rather save
>>the weight as #2 is pretty heavy. I'm planning on running #2AWG forward to
>>the starter...
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Jay
>
> See
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Z Diagram Questions |
At 06:36 AM 2/1/2008 -0800, you wrote:
><bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
>Jay,
>
>I'm using a Z-14 in my RV-10. I have dual electronic ignitions and an all
>electric panel (but with 2.25" ASI and ALT for backup). Given my absolute
>dependence on having juice flowing, it wasn't that much of a leap from
>Z-13/20 to Z-14. I have an electronic ignition on each battery bus and
>the panel "stuff" is split between the buses. When I did the allocations
>to each bus it was with consideration of what would happen "if". Given
>that, I can lose one bus in its entirety and still not be sweating even if
>I'm in the clag. Granted, if that happens I'll get on the ground and
>figure it out but it will be with the comfort of being able to pick which
>airport and approach I'll use.
>
>Looking at actual measured panel loads, it would be no big deal to
>downsize from a 60A main alternator to a 40A and the vacuum pad alternator
>from 20A to 8A. That would probably more than offset the additional
>cost/weight of the second battery, 2 contactors and related wire while
>still retaining huge redundancy.
>
>Bob #40105
A considered analysis of a repeatable experiment.
Thank you.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | RYO Marker Beacon Antenna |
I have been told that you can make an acceptable marker beacon antenna
from a stripped piece of approx 40" coax, mounted horizontally within a
fiberglass wingtip. So my questions are -
1. Is 40" the correct length?
2. Is it acceptable to strip only the outer coax covering and the shield
material leaving the insulator in place which surrounds the center
conductor?
Deems Davis
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation |
Holley 650 double pumper with a special plate that goes between the float
bowl and mixture plate that gives me mixture control in the cockpit. I am
also running dual electric fuel pumps with one way check valves. I have
eliminated the fuel pumps as the source.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
Sounds fine..
What kind of fuel delivery do you have? Carb or FI?
-25F? That's just silly. :)
Matt-
>
> Taylor 409 spiral wound wires. Supposed to be very good wires and good
> for
> noise suppression. I'm pretty sure I did check the noise with the antenna
> disconnected and the noise is gone. I'll recheck that when it warms up
> (-25
> F today and the near future here in Fairbanks, AK and the plane is
> outside)
> That's why I am interested in possible antenna mounting issues. Thanks.
> Keep the suggestions coming.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
> Prather
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:05 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
>
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Are you using (have you tried) spiral wound wires? I am running an old
> LSE ignition on my O-200 powered Varieze. This model of LSE has an MSD
> amplifier and a pair of MSD coils. When I installed the system I made
> custom length Moroso spiral core wires connected to Nippon Denso
> (resistor) plugs.
>
> The electronic ignition is _very_ quiet compared to the magneto.
>
> Disconnect the antenna leads from the back of the radio. If the noise is
> gone, the propagation mode is radiated...
>
> I have heard of people having noise problems when using solid core wires.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>
>> I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the
>> AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000th radio
>> noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my
>> uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using
>> an
>> MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two coils,
>> one
>> dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires and
>> resistor
>> plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one system or the
>> other which basically just switches modules and coils. I have the
>> following
>> avionics which were professionally prewired for me so all I had to do
>> was
>> hook up power, ground and antenna wires.
>>
>> Garmin 340 Audio Panel
>> King KX-165 Nav/Com
>> King 76C Transponder
>> Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI
>>
>> My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a
>> grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded,
>> along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to
>> the
>> firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the firewall
>> is
>> directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge cable. I have
>> filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the source. (I ran
>> the
>> engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and the alternator drive
>> belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I detect no noise from the
>> stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I used RG-142/400 antenna
>> wire.
>> The noise is present with or without the audio panel/intercom. I made
>> sure
>> none of the headset jacks were grounding to the airframe and the noise
>> is
>> present in all jacks. The noise is much worse on the NAV side unless
>> there
>> is voice on the NAV frequency, then the noise is about the same. The
>> comm
>> antenna is on the cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the
>> vertical
>> stab. The noise changes in pitch with engine RPM. It's a sort of whine
>> with static. My transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and
>> clear.
>>
>> The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each
>> sidewall
>> just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if I have a
>> compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax connectors
>> that
>> are nearby. I wouldn't put it past me to screw up more than one coax
>> connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the wires.
>> Someone
>> told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM ground wire because
>> it
>> might be grounded through the mounting tray and the additional ground
>> might
>> set up a loop. I haven't tried that yet. I remember reading about
>> making
>> sure the antenna itself was grounded but I think I remember a cork
>> gasket
>> that went under it before mounting to the airframe. Might there be a
>> problem with the way I mounted the comm and nav antennas themselves? If
>> the
>> problem is radiated from the coils, ignition wires, or distributor I'm
>> screwed. Shielding those will be a huge problem.
>>
>> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Mike Kimball
>>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation |
A different set of spark plug wires is certainly a very simple thing to try.
Just costs money, but I think I will try the blue max wires since they are
working for you. If I still have noise, I will relocate one of the ignition
boxes to outside the firewall. If that solves the problem I will relocate
the second box outside the firewall. Nice plane! Nice engine installation!
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
Hi Mike. I have almost the exact same set up as yours, altho mine is a
stroker 347 all aluminum Ford. Both my ignition boxes are on the outside of
the firewall along side the coil switcher. I did use the high dollar blue
max racing ignition wires and I have no noise in any of my radios or
intercom. My gut feeling is the noise is in the wires, You can go to my
website and browse through the pics and see how mine is set up.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote:
I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the
AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000th radio
noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my
uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using an
MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two coils, one
dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires and resistor
plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one system or the
other which basically just switches modules and coils. I have the following
avionics which were professionally prewired for me so all I had to do was
hook up power, ground and antenna wires.
Garmin 340 Audio Panel
King KX-165 Nav/Com
King 76C Transponder
Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI
My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a
grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded,
along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to the
firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the firewall is
directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge cable. I have
filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the source. (I ran the
engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and the alternator drive
belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I detect no noise from the
stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I used RG-142/400 antenna wire.
The noise is present with or without the audio panel/intercom. I made sure
none of the headset jacks were grounding to the airframe and the noise is
present in all jacks. The noise is much worse on the NAV side unless there
is voice on the NAV frequency, then the noise is about the same. The comm
antenna is on the cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the vertical
stab. The noise changes in pitch with engine RPM. It's a sort of whine
with static. My transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and clear.
The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each sidewall
just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if I have a
compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax connectors that
are nearby. I wouldn't put it past me to screw up more than one coax
connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the wires. Someone
told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM ground wire because it
might be grounded through the mounting tray and the additional ground might
set up a loop. I haven't tried that yet. I remember reading about making
sure the antenna itself was grounded but I think I remember a cork gasket
that went under it before mounting to the airframe. Might there be a
problem with the way I mounted the comm and nav antennas themselves? If the
problem is radiated from the coils, ignition wires, or distributor I'm
screwed. Shielding those will be a huge problem.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Mike Kimball
_____________________________________________________________
Handyman Franchises. Click Here.
<http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4vCwbLVjypXFjXxKF2iwcp
pWxzzzrqwo8CqMTCsrw8RcM6Hf/>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so
cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical
contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in my basement
if anyone really wants to use them.
These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner,
but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your
family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying
something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Schlatterer
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago
using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the attachment.
I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast
steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would
actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the
steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive but would not
burn.
I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention
it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached.
Just what I was told on this list back then.
Bill S
7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same
opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It
really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during
cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of electronic ignition
noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd do it again.
I don't have mags.
Ken
>
>
>> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if sensor leads are
>> too close to high current (fat) wires.
>> Dale Ensing
>>
>
>
> Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main bus and e-bus
feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine sensors). No
really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough
current here for me to need to make a separate penetration to keep these
wires separate?
>
> Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do need to make
> 2
more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100).
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Jim McChesney
> Tucson, AZ
> RV-7A Finishing Kit
Message 10
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Subject: | RYO Marker Beacon Antenna |
Bob Archer makes one out of copper tape and it is 40 inches long.
Apparently that is the proper length for 1/4 wavelength. Here is a link to
a document with information about his antennas for composite airplanes and
contact info for him. He might even be willing to talk to you about making
your own even though he'll be talking himself out of a sale.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems
Davis
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna
I have been told that you can make an acceptable marker beacon antenna
from a stripped piece of approx 40" coax, mounted horizontally within a
fiberglass wingtip. So my questions are -
1. Is 40" the correct length?
2. Is it acceptable to strip only the outer coax covering and the shield
material leaving the insulator in place which surrounds the center
conductor?
Deems Davis
>
Message 11
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|
Subject: | RYO Marker Beacon Antenna |
Forgot the link. It's http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/PRODS2.doc
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Kimball [mailto:mkimball@gci.net]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna
Bob Archer makes one out of copper tape and it is 40 inches long.
Apparently that is the proper length for 1/4 wavelength. Here is a link to
a document with information about his antennas for composite airplanes and
contact info for him. He might even be willing to talk to you about making
your own even though he'll be talking himself out of a sale.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems
Davis
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RYO Marker Beacon Antenna
I have been told that you can make an acceptable marker beacon antenna
from a stripped piece of approx 40" coax, mounted horizontally within a
fiberglass wingtip. So my questions are -
1. Is 40" the correct length?
2. Is it acceptable to strip only the outer coax covering and the shield
material leaving the insulator in place which surrounds the center
conductor?
Deems Davis
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
longg@pjm.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so
cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical
contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in my basement
if anyone really wants to use them.
These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner,
but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your
family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying
something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Schlatterer
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago
using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the attachment.
I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast
steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would
actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the
steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive but would not
burn.
I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention
it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached.
Just what I was told on this list back then.
Bill S
7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same
opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It
really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during
cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of electronic ignition
noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd do it again.
I don't have mags.
Ken
>
>
>> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if sensor leads are
>> too close to high current (fat) wires.
>> Dale Ensing
>>
>
>
> Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main bus and e-bus
feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine sensors). No
really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough
current here for me to need to make a separate penetration to keep these
wires separate?
>
> Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do need to make
> 2
more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100).
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Jim McChesney
> Tucson, AZ
> RV-7A Finishing Kit
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation |
If the noise is still there with the antennae disconnected from the
radios then I presume it really is radiated. Bob often recommends
running things off a separate battery to be certain the noise is not
conducting in on the 12 volt supply. I don't see specs for the Taylor
409 spiral wound wires. They sound like quality wires though and I
believe others have used them successfully. Is the problem ever related
to wire assembly? I wanted to make my own wires but Magnecor gave me
decent pricing and indicated they had a lot of problems with customer
assembled wires. Also I've heard a few guys say they had noise problems
with specific spark plugs such as iridium. Could radiated noise be
harmonics coming from the on off pulses in the 12 volt wiring to the
ignition coils? I can imagine that but I don't know if it is likely.
Regarding the antenna, I followed Bob's advice and did not use any
gaskets under the antenna. Made sure it contacted bare metal where the
bolts went through the skin and added some sealant around the outer
edge. Again I don't know if poor antenna grounding can cause this kind
of issue though?
If the antenna coax checks out OK with an ohm meter (continuity of core
and shield and no shorts)I'd guess the problem is unlikely to be the
coax connectors.
Mike - to help me follow this discussion - the ignition coils and joiner
are ahead of the firewall aren't they?
Ken
n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
> Hi Mike. I have almost the exact same set up as yours, altho mine is a
> stroker 347 all aluminum Ford. Both my ignition boxes are on the
> outside of the firewall along side the coil switcher. I did use the high
> dollar blue max racing ignition wires and I have no noise in any of my
> radios or intercom. My gut feeling is the noise is in the wires, You can
> go to my website and browse through the pics and see how mine is set up.
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> -- Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote:
>
> I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the
> AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000^th radio
> noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my
> uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using
> an MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two
> coils, one dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires
> and resistor plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one
> system or the other which basically just switches modules and coils. I
> have the following avionics which were professionally prewired for me so
> all I had to do was hook up power, ground and antenna wires.
>
>
>
> Garmin 340 Audio Panel
>
> King KX-165 Nav/Com
>
> King 76C Transponder
>
> Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI
>
>
>
> My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a
> grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded,
> along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to
> the firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the
> firewall is directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge
> cable. I have filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the
> source. (I ran the engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and
> the alternator drive belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I
> detect no noise from the stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I
> used RG-142/400 antenna wire. The noise is present with or without the
> audio panel/intercom. I made sure none of the headset jacks were
> grounding to the airframe and the noise is present in all jacks. The
> noise is much worse on the NAV side unless there is voice on the NAV
> frequency, then the noise is about the same. The comm antenna is on the
> cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the vertical stab. The noise
> changes in pitch with engine RPM. Its a sort of whine with static. My
> transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and clear.
>
>
>
> The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each
> sidewall just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if
> I have a compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax
> connectors that are nearby. I wouldnt put it past me to screw up more
> than one coax connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the
> wires. Someone told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM
> ground wire because it might be grounded through the mounting tray and
> the additional ground might set up a loop. I havent tried that yet. I
> remember reading about making sure the antenna itself was grounded but I
> think I remember a cork gasket that went under it before mounting to the
> airframe. Might there be a problem with the way I mounted the comm and
> nav antennas themselves? If the problem is radiated from the coils,
> ignition wires, or distributor Im screwed. Shielding those will be a
> huge problem.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Mike Kimball
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation |
Yes. The coils and joiner are on the engine side of the firewall.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Noise Chevy V8 installation
If the noise is still there with the antennae disconnected from the
radios then I presume it really is radiated. Bob often recommends
running things off a separate battery to be certain the noise is not
conducting in on the 12 volt supply. I don't see specs for the Taylor
409 spiral wound wires. They sound like quality wires though and I
believe others have used them successfully. Is the problem ever related
to wire assembly? I wanted to make my own wires but Magnecor gave me
decent pricing and indicated they had a lot of problems with customer
assembled wires. Also I've heard a few guys say they had noise problems
with specific spark plugs such as iridium. Could radiated noise be
harmonics coming from the on off pulses in the 12 volt wiring to the
ignition coils? I can imagine that but I don't know if it is likely.
Regarding the antenna, I followed Bob's advice and did not use any
gaskets under the antenna. Made sure it contacted bare metal where the
bolts went through the skin and added some sealant around the outer
edge. Again I don't know if poor antenna grounding can cause this kind
of issue though?
If the antenna coax checks out OK with an ohm meter (continuity of core
and shield and no shorts)I'd guess the problem is unlikely to be the
coax connectors.
Mike - to help me follow this discussion - the ignition coils and joiner
are ahead of the firewall aren't they?
Ken
n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
> Hi Mike. I have almost the exact same set up as yours, altho mine is a
> stroker 347 all aluminum Ford. Both my ignition boxes are on the
> outside of the firewall along side the coil switcher. I did use the high
> dollar blue max racing ignition wires and I have no noise in any of my
> radios or intercom. My gut feeling is the noise is in the wires, You can
> go to my website and browse through the pics and see how mine is set up.
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> -- Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote:
>
> I have just joined the list today although I have made good use of the
> AeroElectric website for a long time. I have probably the 3000^th radio
> noise question for the list but mine might be more uncommon due to my
> uncommon installation. I have a Chevy V8 on a Murphy Super Rebel, using
> an MSD dual electronic ignition system. Two ignition modules, two
> coils, one dual pickup distributor, one set of unshielded ignition wires
> and resistor plugs. There is a switch in the cockpit for choosing one
> system or the other which basically just switches modules and coils. I
> have the following avionics which were professionally prewired for me so
> all I had to do was hook up power, ground and antenna wires.
>
>
>
> Garmin 340 Audio Panel
>
> King KX-165 Nav/Com
>
> King 76C Transponder
>
> Centruy NSD360A non-slaved HSI
>
>
>
> My battery is grounded in the back directly to the airframe. I have a
> grounding block on the firewall where all of the avionics are grounded,
> along with most other things although one ignition module is grounded to
> the firewall in a different location. The grounding block on the
> firewall is directly connected to the engine block with a large gauge
> cable. I have filters on the alternator but the alternator is not the
> source. (I ran the engine with the alternator solonoid switch open and
> the alternator drive belt removed. Still have the same noise.) I
> detect no noise from the stobes. The radio power wire is filtered. I
> used RG-142/400 antenna wire. The noise is present with or without the
> audio panel/intercom. I made sure none of the headset jacks were
> grounding to the airframe and the noise is present in all jacks. The
> noise is much worse on the NAV side unless there is voice on the NAV
> frequency, then the noise is about the same. The comm antenna is on the
> cabin top and the nav antenna is on top of the vertical stab. The noise
> changes in pitch with engine RPM. It's a sort of whine with static. My
> transmissions are reported by the tower as loud and clear.
>
>
>
> The ignition modules are mounted inside the cockpit, one on each
> sidewall just behind the firewall. I can only see this as the source if
> I have a compromise in both the comm and nav antenna wires or coax
> connectors that are nearby. I wouldn't put it past me to screw up more
> than one coax connector but I was pretty careful installing them on the
> wires. Someone told me that I might try disconnecting the NAV/COMM
> ground wire because it might be grounded through the mounting tray and
> the additional ground might set up a loop. I haven't tried that yet. I
> remember reading about making sure the antenna itself was grounded but I
> think I remember a cork gasket that went under it before mounting to the
> airframe. Might there be a problem with the way I mounted the comm and
> nav antennas themselves? If the problem is radiated from the coils,
> ignition wires, or distributor I'm screwed. Shielding those will be a
> huge problem.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Mike Kimball
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
These are what I installed. Buy direct from EPM or get them through
Aircraft Spruce.
http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
The idea here is to buy time to shut off the fuel and get the airplane
on the ground in the event of an in flight engine fire. Aluminum,
plastic, brass, and zinc/aluminum (conduit fittings) will fail
catastrophically well below the temperature at which gasoline burns.
Steel (stainless or non-stainless) will withstand that temperature much
longer, allowing for a better chance at surviving the situation.
It is called a "firewall" for a reason.
Steve A
RV-6A
Mike Kimball wrote:
>
> Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings?
>
> Mike
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Mike,
Here is one example. Hopefully this discussion will shake out some other
"less expensive" options.
http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
longg@pjm.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so
cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical
contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in my basement if
anyone really wants to use them.
These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner, but if
you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your family
sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying something actually
made for the firewall for a few dollars more?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Schlatterer
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago using
the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the attachment.
I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast steel
compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would actually burn
very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the steel tube/forged
fittings which were much more expensive but would not burn.
I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention it.
Pictures of the rejected fittings attached.
Just what I was told on this list back then.
Bill S
7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same opening
which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It really doesn't
matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during cranking. At idle on
the ground I can hear a bit of electronic ignition noise from one ignition.
No alternator noise at all so I'd do it again.
I don't have mags.
Ken
>
>
>> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if sensor leads are
>> too close to high current (fat) wires.
>> Dale Ensing
>>
>
>
> Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main bus and e-bus
feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine sensors). No
really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough current
here for me to need to make a separate penetration to keep these wires
separate?
>
> Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do need to make
> 2
more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100).
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Jim McChesney
> Tucson, AZ
> RV-7A Finishing Kit
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
This is what I used and I like them. I bought the middle size, hoping that
two of them would be big enough and that it would be cheaper than the bigger
ones. Hindsight says that the biggest ones would have been better for me.
Terry
RV-8A
Wiring
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
These are what I installed. Buy direct from EPM or get them through
Aircraft Spruce.
http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
The idea here is to buy time to shut off the fuel and get the airplane
on the ground in the event of an in flight engine fire. Aluminum,
plastic, brass, and zinc/aluminum (conduit fittings) will fail
catastrophically well below the temperature at which gasoline burns.
Steel (stainless or non-stainless) will withstand that temperature much
longer, allowing for a better chance at surviving the situation.
It is called a "firewall" for a reason.
Steve A
RV-6A
Mike Kimball wrote:
>
> Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings?
>
> Mike
Message 18
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|
Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
In a message dated 02/01/2008 3:40:03 PM Central Standard Time, longg@pjm.com
writes:
I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so
cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical
contractors?
OK folks- I've been watching this pass-thru stuff for quite a while now
(years, in fact) and while building my plane, solved the issue to my satisfaction
with the following:
_http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5006_
(http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5006)
_http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5007_
(http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5007)
_http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5517_
(http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5517)
For use by a fellow builder, I've had additional copies of this made in the
size shown and slightly larger to accomodate fatter/more wires, and the extra
parts I had cut have been hanging on the wall of my shop for some time, looking
for a home. I had no intention of "marketing" this, but if there is any
interest, I'd gladly send what I have to those interested, provided my costs were
covered. I have theorized some improvements and might even consider going
into production if y'all think it would be useful. I could provide fotos of the
newer installation to those interested.
It ain't rocket science, it just works...
>From The PossumWorks in TN,
Mark Phillips, RV-6A N51PW "Mojo" (she's a good girl!)
_http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_
(http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/)
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
Message 19
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|
Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
For some reason this link hasn't worked for the last few days from
Vansairforce.net but I have just recently bought one of their stainless
firewall penetrations. They only have 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" i.d. versions.
Kind of pricey but will certainly do the job.
Also just ordered a similar 0.90 i.d. firewall penetration from SafeAir1 at
http://www.safeair1.com/index.htm.
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Wiring and plumbing
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On
>>>Behalf Of Mike
>>>Kimball
>>>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:26 PM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
>>>
>>>
>>><mkimball@gci.net>
>>>
>>>Anybody have a web link to the proper penetration fittings?
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>>longg@pjm.com
>>>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:35 PM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
>>>
>>>
>>>I understand the experimental mentality and all, but this crap is so
>>>cheap-o. Are we left to salvaging conduit fittings from electrical
>>>contractors? I have tons of these things in coffee cans in
>>>my basement
>>>if anyone really wants to use them.
>>>
>>>These clamps are right at home running conduit to my air-conditioner,
>>>but if you do a risk analysis of using them on the firewall with your
>>>family sitting behind them, what value would you place on buying
>>>something actually made for the firewall for a few dollars more?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>Behalf Of Bill
>>>Schlatterer
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:34 PM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
>>>
>>>
>>>Just FWIW, I posted a similar firewall penetration a couple years ago
>>>using the cheap pot metal electrical connectors shown in the
>>>attachment.
>>>I was cautioned to AVOID any of the fittings that were made of cast
>>>steel compounds (gray looking pot metal material) because they would
>>>actually burn very well under modest flame. Was told to ONLY use the
>>>steel tube/forged fittings which were much more expensive
>>>but would not
>>>burn.
>>>
>>>I did not put a torch on them to find out but thought I might mention
>>>it. Pictures of the rejected fittings attached.
>>>
>>>Just what I was told on this list back then.
>>>
>>>Bill S
>>>7a
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>Behalf Of Ken
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:52 AM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
>>>
>>>
>>>FWIW I ran everything including starter fat wire through the same
>>>opening which is a hardware store steel towel rack/grab bar elbow. It
>>>really doesn't matter if an engine sensor is misreading a bit during
>>>cranking. At idle on the ground I can hear a bit of
>>>electronic ignition
>>>noise from one ignition. No alternator noise at all so I'd
>>>do it again.
>>>I don't have mags.
>>>Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Be aware of possible impact on engine sensor data if
>>>sensor leads are
>>>>> too close to high current (fat) wires.
>>>>> Dale Ensing
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hadn't thought of this. I had planned on running my main
>>>bus and e-bus
>>>feed lines through this pass through (along with all engine
>>>sensors). No
>>>really fat wires (like starter or B-lead) but would there be enough
>>>current here for me to need to make a separate penetration
>>>to keep these
>>>wires separate?
>>>>
>>>> Really appreciate all the input so far. If I actually do
>>>need to make
>>>> 2
>>>more penetrations then maybe this is worthwhile ($7 vs $100).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Jim McChesney
>>>> Tucson, AZ
>>>> RV-7A Finishing Kit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Message 20
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|
Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 21
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|
Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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