---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/03/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:50 AM - Is 10,000 uF enough? (ianwilson2) 2. 05:51 AM - Re: Is 10,000 uF enough? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:05 AM - Re: SL30 nav com radio (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:40 AM - Re: SL30 nav com radio (rampil) 5. 06:45 AM - Re: SL30 nav com radio (FLAGSTONE) 6. 06:52 AM - Fire wall penetration (James H Nelson) 7. 07:55 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 02/02/08 (glen matejcek) 8. 08:51 AM - Re: SL30 nav com radio (Jeffrey W. Skiba) 9. 10:07 AM - Re: SL30 nav com radio (Matt Prather) 10. 11:53 AM - Starter Woes (Peter Mather) 11. 12:39 PM - Mil-W-5088L Wire Size Calculator spreadsheet (jayb) 12. 02:05 PM - Z-13/8 Re: P/E-Mags Bus Feed (Jim Thorne) 13. 02:44 PM - Re: Starter Woes (Peter Pengilly) 14. 03:15 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Re: P/E-Mags Bus Feed (Neal George) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:36 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Is 10,000 uF enough? From: "ianwilson2" I'm (still!) working on a list of parts for my Jabiru X-Air, based on Z-20. B&C have a kit of parts (504-1) which includes the alternator disconnect relay, OVM-14 and a 10,000uF capacitor. Z-20 and Note 20, both call for a 20,000 to 50,000uF capacitor. Do you think that I would I be OK with the 10,000 capacitor in the PMOV kit, or should I order the parts independently and go with a 20,000 - 50,000 uF capacitor? Many thanks. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162151#162151 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Is 10,000 uF enough? At 03:46 AM 2/3/2008 -0800, you wrote: > >I'm (still!) working on a list of parts for my Jabiru X-Air, based on >Z-20. B&C have a kit of parts (504-1) which includes the alternator >disconnect relay, OVM-14 and a 10,000uF capacitor. Z-20 and Note 20, both >call for a 20,000 to 50,000uF capacitor. Do you think that I would I be >OK with the 10,000 capacitor in the PMOV kit, or should I order the parts >independently and go with a 20,000 - 50,000 uF capacitor? The "rule of thumb" for filtering is 1,000 uF per 1A of alternator output. This is not critical. The 10,000 uF is fine but if you want to put a bigger one on, it's okay too. Keep in mind that the Z-figures are primarily intended to illustrate architecture. They're not intended to suggest a bill of materials. If anything you find in a z-figure argues with the manufacturer's suggested parts, the manufacturer's recommendations should prevail. You may find perfectly valid reasons for mixing and matching various accessories. For example, circuit breakers and fuses are generally inter- changeable, e-mags and p-mags can be used on virtually any of the z-figures where those products will fit the engine, etc. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SL30 nav com radio At 12:56 AM 2/3/2008 -0600, you wrote: >I have a power question: >The sl30 can accept power either 14v or 28 v > >There is also a power input for Nav and com > >You CAN power just the nav line and get the nav functions to work. > >You get a message on the display that says com failure > > >However you can NOT power just the com portion as the display is blank. > >Question is: > >Can you power the com portion with 28 volts and the nav portion with 14 >volts at the same time?? > >I ask since this sl30 will be connected to a DC50 comdat coupler and EX500 >which will both be running off a booster which is taking the aircraft >normal 14 volt system to 28 to get the ex500 powered along with the dc50. > >The DC50 box stress to power the unit from the same breaker as the com >radio since transmitting with the dc50 unpowered will cause damage to the unit. > >However if I lose the booster I would still like to have the nav portion >of the sl30 if possible. > >I would think it would work but do not really want to find out the hard >way that it does not !! Your marching off into unproven territory. Since your chosen configuration for power generation and distribution is not in the bag of tricks for folks who do this for a living in TC aircraft, that combination (along with its unique failure modes) has never (to my knowledge) been explored for robustness. Unless someone here on the List has an intimate working knowledge of this products internal characteristics and limits, your most reliable and probably the only accurate source of information will come from the factory. I'm a bit confused tho . . . why not run both sides from 14V if that's the ship's main source? I've looked over a few marketing blurbs for this suite of equipments and it's not obvious to me why the nav/com cannot be operated totally from the 14 system. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:31 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SL30 nav com radio From: "rampil" The data output from the SL-30 will be to standard spec regardless of whether it is run from 14 or 28. It will be understood by any other box, even one running 400 cycle 3 phase. I would think it a very bad idea to have half the SL-30 on 14 and the other half on 28. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162172#162172 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:05 AM PST US From: "FLAGSTONE" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SL30 nav com radio Jeff: I can't answer your question but if you call Garmin at 800.525.6726 x3991, you should get to the AT install/service techs at Garmin. These are the guys that came over from Apollo when Garmin bought them. Terry, or John there could answer your question, and if they don't know they will get hold of the engineers and get the question answered for you. If you don't get them on that number call 888.442.7646, follow the prompts until you get the Garmin tech-reps and ask them to put you thru to the AT guys. I've just spent the last week with them on a complicated SL30 install and found them to be very knowledgeable and helpful. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey W. Skiba To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:56 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: SL30 nav com radio I have a power question: The sl30 can accept power either 14v or 28 v There is also a power input for Nav and com You CAN power just the nav line and get the nav functions to work. You get a message on the display that says com failure However you can NOT power just the com portion as the display is blank. Question is: Can you power the com portion with 28 volts and the nav portion with 14 volts at the same time?? I ask since this sl30 will be connected to a DC50 comdat coupler and EX500 which will both be running off a booster which is taking the aircraft normal 14 volt system to 28 to get the ex500 powered along with the dc50. The DC50 box stress to power the unit from the same breaker as the com radio since transmitting with the dc50 unpowered will cause damage to the unit. However if I lose the booster I would still like to have the nav portion of the sl30 if possible. I would think it would work but do not really want to find out the hard way that it does not !! Thanks Jeff. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fire wall penetration From: James H Nelson Thanks Bruce for the "direct to" on the fire wall pass through. Jim ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:03 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 02/02/08 HI All- I went through the same process, with virtually the same result. The only real differences are to say that I was also able to run my engine control cables through the grab bar fixtures, and that I went to the aviation safety dept of the local Lowes and bought a caulk gun sized tube of intumescent caulk to seal the works up. I think they called it fire block. As Bob has previously pointed out, this stuff will swell up and fill all sorts of gaps when heated sufficiently. It also costs a fraction of what the re-marketer with the SS cabin heat boxes charges. FWIW- > > Bill and others, > IMHO, I went thru the same thing several years ago. I changed my > heater box for the same reason. I now have stainless steel in place of > the aluminum unit. I went to the aviation section of McMaster Carr and > bought a stainless steel handicap grab bar. It was a short unit but it > worked out very nice, the flange is welded on and I used the 90* end. > This allowed me to get all the wires forward. It is amazing how many > wires go there from the instrumentation we use today. I then used two > fire shield lengths / diameters to close off the opening. I am going to > fill any remaining space with RTV copper hi-temp silicone today. I will > use safety wire to provide the remaining squeeze to seal it wiring to the > fire shield. You can see it on my web site > www.websites.expercraft.com/jimn . That may help you in the decision to > keep the unwanted stuff up front and not on your feet. > glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:26 AM PST US From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SL30 nav com radio >I have a power question: >The sl30 can accept power either 14v or 28 v > >There is also a power input for Nav and com > >You CAN power just the nav line and get the nav functions to work. > >You get a message on the display that says com failure > > >However you can NOT power just the com portion as the display is blank. > >Question is: > >Can you power the com portion with 28 volts and the nav portion with 14 >volts at the same time?? > >I ask since this sl30 will be connected to a DC50 comdat coupler and EX500 >which will both be running off a booster which is taking the aircraft >normal 14 volt system to 28 to get the ex500 powered along with the dc50. > >The DC50 box stress to power the unit from the same breaker as the com >radio since transmitting with the dc50 unpowered will cause damage to the unit. > >However if I lose the booster I would still like to have the nav portion >of the sl30 if possible. > >I would think it would work but do not really want to find out the hard >way that it does not !! I'm a bit confused tho . . . why not run both sides from 14V if that's the ship's main source? I've looked over a few marketing blurbs for this suite of equipments and it's not obvious to me why the nav/com cannot be operated totally from the 14 system. Bob. . . The #1 reason I want to run 2 voltages is that if the DC50 data coupler device for the AVidyne ex500 (they share one VHF antenna) looses power it states it will be Damaged if the com radio (sl30) tries to transmit without the DC50 powered. Hence run the sl30 com portion from the same power booster that runs the DC50 (per dc50 install manual), so that if the dc50 looses power the SL30 also does hence protecting any damage to the DC50. I will try to call the AT guys at Garmin latter this week to see if the sl30 can be powered in this fashion safely (thanks for the tip Mark) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SL30 nav com radio From: "Matt Prather" It would be relatively easy to setup a relay to provide power to the SL30. The 28V bus provides the control signal for the relay - driving the coil. The relay switching the 14V feed to the COM. If 28V power is lost, the relay opens, disabling the COM portion of the radio. Since COM functionality isn't really a safety of flight issue, I wouldn't be concerned about the added parts count associated with having an extra relay in the circuit. You could also (instead) use 28V to control a relay in line with the PTT circuit on the COM portion of the radio. Drive the power input to the COM portion straight through with 14V. Then even after loss of 28V power you could still safely receive on the COM - the transmitter would be disabled - possibly useful. Matt- > > >>I have a power question: > >>The sl30 can accept power either 14v or 28 v >> >>There is also a power input for Nav and com >> >>You CAN power just the nav line and get the nav functions to work. >> >>You get a message on the display that says com failure >> >> >>However you can NOT power just the com portion as the display is blank. >> >>Question is: >> >>Can you power the com portion with 28 volts and the nav portion with 14 >>volts at the same time?? >> >>I ask since this sl30 will be connected to a DC50 comdat coupler and >> EX500 >>which will both be running off a booster which is taking the aircraft >>normal 14 volt system to 28 to get the ex500 powered along with the dc50. >> >>The DC50 box stress to power the unit from the same breaker as the com >>radio since transmitting with the dc50 unpowered will cause damage to the > unit. >> >>However if I lose the booster I would still like to have the nav portion >>of the sl30 if possible. >> >>I would think it would work but do not really want to find out the hard >>way that it does not !! > > I'm a bit confused tho . . . why not run both > sides from 14V if that's the ship's main source? > I've looked over a few marketing blurbs for this > suite of equipments and it's not obvious to me > why the nav/com cannot be operated totally > from the 14 system. > > Bob. . . > > The #1 reason I want to run 2 voltages is that if the DC50 data coupler > device for the AVidyne ex500 (they share one VHF antenna) looses power it > states it will be Damaged if the com radio (sl30) tries to transmit > without > the DC50 powered. > > Hence run the sl30 com portion from the same power booster that runs the > DC50 (per dc50 install manual), so that if the dc50 looses power the SL30 > also does hence protecting any damage to the DC50. > > I will try to call the AT guys at Garmin latter this week to see if the > sl30 > can be powered in this fashion safely > (thanks for the tip Mark) > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:31 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Woes Hi all I've got a Magnaflite MZ6222 starter on my IO-320, Odyessy PC680 battery, #2 welding cable from battery to master contactor and to firewall earth (15" and 12" respectively), 14" copper braid from firewall earth to sump bolt at rear of engine, 6" copper bus bar from master contactor to starter contactor, 24" #4 Tefzel from starter contactor to starter and am having problems as follows. The engine has very good compressions and a new bottom end so is tight but easy enough to turn over by hand. Symptoms are that the starter finds it very hard to get the engine over the first compression even when the engine is warm, but when turning rotates the prop very very fast. The prop is wood so very little flywheel effect. The starter was "as new" second hand and has no obvious faults. Questions: Are these symptoms typical of magnaflites in general or could mine be faulty? If so what is a decent starter (must be short version as the fuel feed from the injector to the flow divider runs behind the starter) that doesn't need engine mods or rewiring. Alternatively how can I diagnose if I'm losing voltage somewhere and/or check the starter? All connections are checked and good and runs as short as possible. Any ideas/suggestions gratefully received Best regards Peter ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mil-W-5088L Wire Size Calculator spreadsheet From: "jayb" PRetty handy wire size calculator spreadsheet is attached. Has anyone used it before? I've been playing around with it some and it looks to be pretty accurate. There may be a newer version, but I haven't yet been able to locate the author (Scott Dahlgren) to ask... Regards, Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162223#162223 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wire_size_107.xls ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:51 PM PST US From: "Jim Thorne" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 RE: P/E-Mags Bus Feed Looking carefully at the drawing the inset in the lower right side shows the P-Mag fed from the "Main Bus" and the E-Mag fed through the S700-2-10 switch from the "Battery Bus". Then if you look at the upper left hand part of the drawing at the "Main Battery Bus" you see both the right and left ignitions coming off this bus. I think my question is this...Is the "Battery Bus" and the "Main Bus" nomenclature in the lower right inset really the "Main Battery Bus" and not the Battery Bus and the Main Power Distribution Bus? Probably a dumb question for anyone than has done more electrical work than changing a light bulb. Do not archive. Jim Thorne RV7A CHD ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:43 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter Woes Peter, Sounds like your starter is at fault. Skytec have a very good trouble shooting page on their website (http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm), but I suspect you will be in for a new starter. You could always fit a Skytec or B&C starter for around $500 + all the usual. If you go the Skytec route, be aware that their latest "straight" offering (I think the 149-NL) is longer than the others (HT, PM or LS models), so you will need to ensure you have sufficient room. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather Sent: 03 February 2008 19:46 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Woes Hi all I've got a Magnaflite MZ6222 starter on my IO-320, Odyessy PC680 battery, #2 welding cable from battery to master contactor and to firewall earth (15" and 12" respectively), 14" copper braid from firewall earth to sump bolt at rear of engine, 6" copper bus bar from master contactor to starter contactor, 24" #4 Tefzel from starter contactor to starter and am having problems as follows. The engine has very good compressions and a new bottom end so is tight but easy enough to turn over by hand. Symptoms are that the starter finds it very hard to get the engine over the first compression even when the engine is warm, but when turning rotates the prop very very fast. The prop is wood so very little flywheel effect. The starter was "as new" second hand and has no obvious faults. Questions: Are these symptoms typical of magnaflites in general or could mine be faulty? If so what is a decent starter (must be short version as the fuel feed from the injector to the flow divider runs behind the starter) that doesn't need engine mods or rewiring. Alternatively how can I diagnose if I'm losing voltage somewhere and/or check the starter? All connections are checked and good and runs as short as possible. Any ideas/suggestions gratefully received Best regards Peter ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:13 PM PST US From: "Neal George" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 RE: P/E-Mags Bus Feed Jim - The Battery Bus and the Main Bus are indeed two separate circuits. The EMag is an electrically dependent ignition - lose or remove electrical power and it quits sparking. Conversely, PMag is NOT electrically dependent - once above about 900 RPM, it makes it's own power via a small internal alternator. Bob's philosophy has been to connect electrically dependent ignitions directly to the Battery Bus, so that in the event of smoke or other electrical misbehavior, one can throw the Master OFF and not lose the engine. Hanging the EMag off the Battery Bus ensures that it will continue to make sparks with the Master OFF. Neal George RV-7 N8ZG Canopy & Cowling _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 RE: P/E-Mags Bus Feed Looking carefully at the drawing the inset in the lower right side shows the P-Mag fed from the "Main Bus" and the E-Mag fed through the S700-2-10 switch from the "Battery Bus". Then if you look at the upper left hand part of the drawing at the "Main Battery Bus" you see both the right and left ignitions coming off this bus. I think my question is this...Is the "Battery Bus" and the "Main Bus" nomenclature in the lower right inset really the "Main Battery Bus" and not the Battery Bus and the Main Power Distribution Bus? Probably a dumb question for anyone than has done more electrical work than changing a light bulb. Do not archive. Jim Thorne RV7A CHD ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.