Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:13 AM - Re: External antennas on composite plane ()
2. 05:43 AM - Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (glen matejcek)
3. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: External antennas on composite plane (Mike)
4. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (H. M. Haught Jr.)
5. 06:45 AM - Why can't the tower hear me? (Fergus Kyle)
6. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (Greg Young)
7. 08:07 AM - Re: B&C alternator 30Amps (kakydanou)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (H. M. Haught Jr.)
9. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (Dj Merrill)
10. 10:59 AM - Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (Rob Turk)
11. 01:22 PM - Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (H. M. Haught Jr.)
12. 04:43 PM - Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (Bret Smith)
13. 07:01 PM - Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (earl_schroeder@juno.com)
14. 10:31 PM - Re: Why can't the tower hear me? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: External antennas on composite plane |
Flat plate area of the airframe has nothing to do with it,
speed does. The B757 and B767 is a big plane but goes
460 kts.
bent whip Com @ 200 kts about 0.25 to 0.30 mph drag
transponder @ 200 kts about/less than 0.10 mph drag
VOR whiskers @ 200 kts double the Com antenna)
So for all three you are looking at 1 mph at 200 kts.
>Subject: Re: External antennas on composite plane (was Alternator article)
>From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>Drag is a relative thing. One or two antennas on a big 4 seater that
>won't go 200kts down low is one thing. As the airframe gets smaller
>(lower airframe flat-plate area) and the speed goes up, antenna drag
>becomes less trivial.. Plus, antennas are ugly. But, I agree that for
?most airplanes external antennas make sense unless you're looking to be
>experimental. Regards, Matt-
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Why can't the tower hear me? |
Hi All-
Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower chief to make
sure that he/she knows of the issue. If that gets no results, a letter to
the regional office. Make sure to delineate all the steps you guys have
taken to verify your own equipment ops.
You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate a NORDO
arrival. Just be sure to review the light gun signals. Also, remember to
keep you Piet under 200 KIAS ;-)
As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has provided me
with various insights. Included in those were that although they can't
upgrade equipment, they do get new leather furniture. Makes one proud of
the system.
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: External antennas on composite plane |
460 kts TAS not indicated. The indicated speed of a 757 or 767 is
360kias.
Think about it,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: External antennas on composite plane
Flat plate area of the airframe has nothing to do with it,
speed does. The B757 and B767 is a big plane but goes
460 kts.
bent whip Com @ 200 kts about 0.25 to 0.30 mph drag
transponder @ 200 kts about/less than 0.10 mph drag
VOR whiskers @ 200 kts double the Com antenna)
So for all three you are looking at 1 mph at 200 kts.
>Subject: Re: External antennas on composite plane (was Alternator
article)
>From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>Drag is a relative thing. One or two antennas on a big 4 seater that
>won't go 200kts down low is one thing. As the airframe gets smaller
>(lower airframe flat-plate area) and the speed goes up, antenna drag
>becomes less trivial.. Plus, antennas are ugly. But, I agree that for
?most airplanes external antennas make sense unless you're looking to be
>experimental. Regards, Matt-
_____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
10/2/2007 11:10 AM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Why can't the tower hear me? |
Steve -
If you decide to call the tower chief, contact me off line and I will
provide my info and approximate dates. It is probably better for one of
us rather than both to contact them, but I will be glad to provide
support.
M. Haught
glen matejcek wrote:
>
> Hi All-
>
> Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower chief to make
> sure that he/she knows of the issue. If that gets no results, a letter to
> the regional office. Make sure to delineate all the steps you guys have
> taken to verify your own equipment ops.
>
> You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate a NORDO
> arrival. Just be sure to review the light gun signals. Also, remember to
> keep you Piet under 200 KIAS ;-)
>
> As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has provided me
> with various insights. Included in those were that although they can't
> upgrade equipment, they do get new leather furniture. Makes one proud of
> the system.
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Why can't the tower hear me? |
Cheers,
A few emails indicated unfamiliarity with radio transmission and
reception.
I ain't no expert, but Ham radio has useful lessons:
[1] A message not acknowledged was not received;
[2] A message not received was never sent;
[3] Radios are actually two units, a receiver and a transmitter, seldom
on at once.
The site of under-belly antenna might indicate a strange receiver
antenna site at the offending airfield. There are peculiar beliefs
amongst installers when it comes to siting. The site of the tower
antenna farm might just satisfy needs when the aircraft antenna is 8 feet
above ground, but not when within inches of the earth. Also, tower
folk ON OCCASION assume the qualities of a dish- washer salesman -
vast knowledge, centuries-old experience and an assumption that
pilots are new and vulnerable.
Plus, those tower antennas are out in the weather a thousand or more
times than aircraft ones, and probably get one thousandth the attention.
It might be that these two airfields share equal histories.
Ferg
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: Why can't the tower hear me? |
I've called our tower a couple of times and found them to be very cordial
and very much interested to hear from pilots. If the chief/supv is not on
then ask for the controller in charge. It's amazing what you can learn and
what they are already aware of. I called about a "trainee" who after at
least a year on duty totally lost track of only 3 airplanes (I was one of
them) while working ground. Turns out that what everyone thought was a
trainee is a burn-out 2 weeks away from mandatory retirement. They were well
aware of the problem and keeping him on duties where he couldn't hurt
anyone. Yup, makes one proud of the system.
Regards,
Greg Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of glen matejcek
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:39 AM
> To: AeroElectric-List Digest Server
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Why can't the tower hear me?
>
> --> <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>
> Hi All-
>
> Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower
> chief to make sure that he/she knows of the issue. If that
> gets no results, a letter to the regional office. Make sure
> to delineate all the steps you guys have taken to verify your
> own equipment ops.
>
> You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate
> a NORDO arrival. Just be sure to review the light gun
> signals. Also, remember to keep you Piet under 200 KIAS ;-)
>
> As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has
> provided me with various insights. Included in those were
> that although they can't upgrade equipment, they do get new
> leather furniture. Makes one proud of the system.
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator 30Amps |
Hi guys,
Good news: B&C are shipping again their 30amps gear driven alternator! Mine should
be on its way to Switzerland soon, great!
Dan
www.hb-sop.ch
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164009#164009
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Why can't the tower hear me? |
Cordiality wasn't in evidence at KOUN. I was told in no uncertain terms
that it wasn't their fault that my radio was junk, but they would give
me light signals to get me out. I tried to explain that I've had the
radio worked on a number of times and their facility was the only place
I was having any trouble, which was true at the time, and got the reply
- "If you want light signals to get out, then tell me, but don't blame
our equipment for your radio problems." I was on a telephone talking to
them from the service office - wouldn't see me face to face. They see
lots of high power stuff and cater to it - my old ratty looking Pacer
was consider "junk". I took the light signals and the radio was working
fine by the time I got to the end of the taxiway. Called up OK City
immediately after leaving the pattern, had radio check and was told
"five x five". Next time I go in, (I've got my hand held set up on an
external antenna as a backup radio ), as soon as I power down, I'm going
to call up tower for radio check on the Icom, and then do the same thing
with the handheld on rubber ducky antenna. Next day, if I have
problems, I'll try the rubber ducky antenna again, as using the external
antenna on the hand held also resulted in unreadable transmissions.
Just doesn't make sense that two different radios are having the same
problem on the same day.
M. Haught
Greg Young wrote:
>
> I've called our tower a couple of times and found them to be very cordial
> and very much interested to hear from pilots. If the chief/supv is not on
> then ask for the controller in charge. It's amazing what you can learn and
> what they are already aware of. I called about a "trainee" who after at
> least a year on duty totally lost track of only 3 airplanes (I was one of
> them) while working ground. Turns out that what everyone thought was a
> trainee is a burn-out 2 weeks away from mandatory retirement. They were well
> aware of the problem and keeping him on duties where he couldn't hurt
> anyone. Yup, makes one proud of the system.
>
> Regards,
> Greg Young
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
>> Behalf Of glen matejcek
>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:39 AM
>> To: AeroElectric-List Digest Server
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Why can't the tower hear me?
>>
>> --> <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Hi All-
>>
>> Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower
>> chief to make sure that he/she knows of the issue. If that
>> gets no results, a letter to the regional office. Make sure
>> to delineate all the steps you guys have taken to verify your
>> own equipment ops.
>>
>> You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate
>> a NORDO arrival. Just be sure to review the light gun
>> signals. Also, remember to keep you Piet under 200 KIAS ;-)
>>
>> As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has
>> provided me with various insights. Included in those were
>> that although they can't upgrade equipment, they do get new
>> leather furniture. Makes one proud of the system.
>>
>> glen matejcek
>> aerobubba@earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Why can't the tower hear me? |
H. M. Haught Jr. wrote:
> Just doesn't make sense that two different radios are having the same
> problem on the same day.
At KLEB I can't talk to the tower on any radio if I am in front of
the big hangar. If I taxi out 20-30 feet then it is a clear signal.
You might both be correct - it is neither your radios or the tower
radios, but simply a "radio dead zone" on one part of the taxiway on the
ground due to interference of some sort. Radio wave propagation can be
an interesting beast.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Why can't the tower hear me? |
Just a thought on this.. Maybe your radio is actually transmitting a bit off
frequency. Most radio's including those of other pilots are designed to
operate at 25kHz channel space. If you are off by a few kHz they will still
hear you load and clear.
However, the tower might already be equipped with 8.33kHz radio's. They use
narrow channels to accomodate more frequencies, but this also means that a
few kHz off really puts you near the edge of their channel. This can result
in a situation where everyone with 25kHz equipment hears you just fine, but
those with newer 8.33kHz radios can hardly hear you.
Have your radio checked out for frequency accuracy, every maintenance shop
with a decent freqency counter can tell you if this is the issue.
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Ruse" <steve@wotelectronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:39 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why can't the tower hear me?
> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
>
> I fly an open cockpit experimental (Pietenpol). My radio is a Vertex
> Standard VXA-150 (handheld), powered by an external 8AH/12v battery. I
> have an antenna mounted on a ground plane on the belly, in front of the
> gear. I have no problems communicating air to air with other planes, I
> have actually maintained contact air-air with friends at distances over
> 125NM. My calls were reported as loud and clear. I was based at a class
> D airport (KFTW) for about one year, and never had trouble with the tower
> there.
>
> Two years ago, I moved to a new area, near a class D airport that I
> occasionally go to (KOUN in Norman, OK). I often have trouble being
> understood by the tower, even though all pilots indicate that my
> transmissions are loud and clear. Last weekend I tried to enter the
> class D, but both times I called, the tower responded saying that my
> transmissions were "scratchy and unintelligable". I was about 6NM away
> and could actually see the tower. I immediately switched to another
> frequency, and heard traffic on the CTAF at KGYI, about 95NM away. I
> called them and asked for a radio check. That pilot replied that I was
> loud and clear. Not wanting to bother the tower or cause trouble in
> their airspace, I turned away before entering.
>
> I am baffled by this. What would cause me to be unintelligable to the
> KOUN tower repeatedly, when no one else has trouble understanding me,
> even at long distances? I was on a heading for the tower, and I know my
> transmission strength in that direction (forward) is good. AND it was
> only six miles away.
>
> My only theory is that the tower doesn't like the wind noise in my
> mic...but I have a noise cancelling mic, with a leather wind-blocking mic
> cover, AND other pilots report my transmissions as clear.
>
> Any thoughts on what might cause this would be appreciated. It is
> difficult to trouble shoot because I have to bother the tower to
> replicate the problem.
>
> Steve Ruse
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Why can't the tower hear me? |
Rob - This isn't Steve, but I've had problems with KOUN too, as I've
posted here.
Last week a local radio tech and I checked nearly every frequency with a
counter - checked from each extreme range, in the center, and then on
either side of the two frequencies that were giving me problems. Radio
was right on frequency with practically no deviation. Even checked my
handheld, both with rubber duckie antenna and the external mounted
antenna. All of them were right on spec. Planning a trip back to KOUN
in a couple of weeks, and intend to be ready for them!! I just cannot
find a single thing wrong with either of my radios. But if there is
something there, I want to correct the problem.
M. Haught
Rob Turk wrote:
>
> Just a thought on this.. Maybe your radio is actually transmitting a
> bit off frequency. Most radio's including those of other pilots are
> designed to operate at 25kHz channel space. If you are off by a few
> kHz they will still hear you load and clear.
>
> However, the tower might already be equipped with 8.33kHz radio's.
> They use narrow channels to accomodate more frequencies, but this also
> means that a few kHz off really puts you near the edge of their
> channel. This can result in a situation where everyone with 25kHz
> equipment hears you just fine, but those with newer 8.33kHz radios can
> hardly hear you.
>
> Have your radio checked out for frequency accuracy, every maintenance
> shop with a decent freqency counter can tell you if this is the issue.
>
> Rob
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse"
> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:39 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why can't the tower hear me?
>
>
>> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
>>
>> I fly an open cockpit experimental (Pietenpol). My radio is a Vertex
>> Standard VXA-150 (handheld), powered by an external 8AH/12v
>> battery. I have an antenna mounted on a ground plane on the belly,
>> in front of the gear. I have no problems communicating air to air
>> with other planes, I have actually maintained contact air-air with
>> friends at distances over 125NM. My calls were reported as loud and
>> clear. I was based at a class D airport (KFTW) for about one year,
>> and never had trouble with the tower there.
>>
>> Two years ago, I moved to a new area, near a class D airport that I
>> occasionally go to (KOUN in Norman, OK). I often have trouble being
>> understood by the tower, even though all pilots indicate that my
>> transmissions are loud and clear. Last weekend I tried to enter the
>> class D, but both times I called, the tower responded saying that my
>> transmissions were "scratchy and unintelligable". I was about 6NM
>> away and could actually see the tower. I immediately switched to
>> another frequency, and heard traffic on the CTAF at KGYI, about 95NM
>> away. I called them and asked for a radio check. That pilot
>> replied that I was loud and clear. Not wanting to bother the tower
>> or cause trouble in their airspace, I turned away before entering.
>>
>> I am baffled by this. What would cause me to be unintelligable to
>> the KOUN tower repeatedly, when no one else has trouble understanding
>> me, even at long distances? I was on a heading for the tower, and I
>> know my transmission strength in that direction (forward) is good.
>> AND it was only six miles away.
>>
>> My only theory is that the tower doesn't like the wind noise in my
>> mic...but I have a noise cancelling mic, with a leather
>> wind-blocking mic cover, AND other pilots report my transmissions as
>> clear.
>>
>> Any thoughts on what might cause this would be appreciated. It is
>> difficult to trouble shoot because I have to bother the tower to
>> replicate the problem.
>>
>> Steve Ruse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Why can't the tower hear me? |
Sounds to me like the tower controller and the radio shop repairman have
quite a gimmick going ;)
Bret Smith
ASN 1A3
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. M.
Haught Jr.
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why can't the tower hear me?
--> <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
Rob - This isn't Steve, but I've had problems with KOUN too, as I've posted
here.
Last week a local radio tech and I checked nearly every frequency with a
counter - checked from each extreme range, in the center, and then on
either side of the two frequencies that were giving me problems. Radio was
right on frequency with practically no deviation. Even checked my handheld,
both with rubber duckie antenna and the external mounted antenna. All of
them were right on spec. Planning a trip back to KOUN in a couple of weeks,
and intend to be ready for them!! I just cannot find a single thing wrong
with either of my radios. But if there is something there, I want to
correct the problem.
M. Haught
Rob Turk wrote:
> --> <matronics@rtist.nl>
>
> Just a thought on this.. Maybe your radio is actually transmitting a
> bit off frequency. Most radio's including those of other pilots are
> designed to operate at 25kHz channel space. If you are off by a few
> kHz they will still hear you load and clear.
>
> However, the tower might already be equipped with 8.33kHz radio's.
> They use narrow channels to accomodate more frequencies, but this also
> means that a few kHz off really puts you near the edge of their
> channel. This can result in a situation where everyone with 25kHz
> equipment hears you just fine, but those with newer 8.33kHz radios can
> hardly hear you.
>
> Have your radio checked out for frequency accuracy, every maintenance
> shop with a decent freqency counter can tell you if this is the issue.
>
> Rob
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse"
> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:39 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why can't the tower hear me?
>
>
>> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
>>
>> I fly an open cockpit experimental (Pietenpol). My radio is a Vertex
>> Standard VXA-150 (handheld), powered by an external 8AH/12v
>> battery. I have an antenna mounted on a ground plane on the belly,
>> in front of the gear. I have no problems communicating air to air
>> with other planes, I have actually maintained contact air-air with
>> friends at distances over 125NM. My calls were reported as loud and
>> clear. I was based at a class D airport (KFTW) for about one year,
>> and never had trouble with the tower there.
>>
>> Two years ago, I moved to a new area, near a class D airport that I
>> occasionally go to (KOUN in Norman, OK). I often have trouble being
>> understood by the tower, even though all pilots indicate that my
>> transmissions are loud and clear. Last weekend I tried to enter the
>> class D, but both times I called, the tower responded saying that my
>> transmissions were "scratchy and unintelligable". I was about 6NM
>> away and could actually see the tower. I immediately switched to
>> another frequency, and heard traffic on the CTAF at KGYI, about 95NM
>> away. I called them and asked for a radio check. That pilot replied
>> that I was loud and clear. Not wanting to bother the tower or cause
>> trouble in their airspace, I turned away before entering.
>>
>> I am baffled by this. What would cause me to be unintelligable to
>> the KOUN tower repeatedly, when no one else has trouble understanding
>> me, even at long distances? I was on a heading for the tower, and I
>> know my transmission strength in that direction (forward) is good.
>> AND it was only six miles away.
>>
>> My only theory is that the tower doesn't like the wind noise in my
>> mic...but I have a noise cancelling mic, with a leather wind-blocking
>> mic cover, AND other pilots report my transmissions as clear.
>>
>> Any thoughts on what might cause this would be appreciated. It is
>> difficult to trouble shoot because I have to bother the tower to
>> replicate the problem.
>>
>> Steve Ruse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Why can't the tower hear me? |
-- "Bret Smith" <smithhb@tds.net> wrote:
Sounds to me like the tower controller and the radio shop repairman have
quite a gimmick going ;)
Way to go Bret! I had not thought of that possibility.
Make a deal with the tower.. if there is a problem the pilot pays, if no problem
is found, the tower pays! Wait a minute. That should apply to lawyers too!!
Do not archive.
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Why can't the tower hear me? |
In a message dated 02/14/2008 6:46:17 PM Central Standard Time,
smithhb@tds.net writes:
Planning a trip back to KOUN in a couple of weeks,
and intend to be ready for them!!
>>
Perhaps a slip of the tongue, such as "KOUN tower, Piper 12345, 7 miles
south, 3000 feet, landing KOUN" and see if they respond. "Piper 12345 announce
3
mile left base for XX" "Uhh, tower this is EXPERIMENTAL 12345, 7 south
inbound- sorry for the mixup, I was in the Cherokee last time I came through."
Maybe they just don't like Piets?
Mark
do not archive
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