Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:07 AM - Re: Garmin396/SL40 interface (Dale Ensing)
2. 09:00 AM - Re: Batteries in Series (Rick Lindstrom)
3. 10:40 AM - Re: Batteries in Series (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:45 AM - Re: AUX BAttery Charging (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 10:54 AM - Re: [OT] boat wiring specificity (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:13 PM - Re: Batteries in Series (Jim McBurney)
7. 12:57 PM - Re: Batteries in Series (paulmillner)
8. 01:00 PM - Re: Batteries in Series (paulmillner)
9. 01:44 PM - Re: AUX BAttery Charging (Richard T. Schaefer)
10. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: Batteries in Series (Richard T. Schaefer)
11. 03:51 PM - Re: Low voltage indicator for LR3 (Jeff Page)
12. 04:51 PM - Re: Batteries in Series (paulmillner)
13. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: Low voltage indicator for LR3 (Cassius Smith)
14. 05:49 PM - Re: NEARLY ready for first flight (Cassius Smith)
15. 06:29 PM - Re: Batteries in Series (Ron Quillin)
16. 07:46 PM - Re: Batteries in Series (paulmillner)
17. 10:14 PM - Re: Re: Batteries in Series (Richard T. Schaefer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin396/SL40 interface |
Yes, I know it is not literally a VHF transmission, (poor choice of word by
me) but Garmin uses that terminology in their setup page.....at least in
the 396.
I am going to load the latest Garmin software into the 296 today as Vernon
Little suggest.
BTW since I asked the original question about the value of loading the VHF
frequencies from the GPS to the Com, I have completed the wiring in my 6A.
It works and I think I am going to love it.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim McBurney" <jmcburney@pobox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin396/SL40 interface
> <jmcburney@pobox.com>
>
> Dale,
>
> the output you're loking for isn't a VHF signal. The GPS is sending a
> data
> signal to the receiver to tell it what freq. to tune. Probably a serial
> data port.
>
> Blue skies and tailwinds
>
> Jim
> CH-801
> DeltaHawk diesel
> Augusta GA
> 90% done, 90% left
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
Air conditioning!
Wuss.
Rick Lindstrom
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Paul Millner [OAK]" <paulmillner@compuserve.com>
>Sent: Feb 23, 2008 3:38 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batteries in Series
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I enjoyed reading your recent discussion of paralleling batteries.
>
>Instead, I'm wondering about converting one of my two alternators to 24
>volt (28 volt, whatever nominal voltage you prefer!) to charge two 12
>volt batteries in series. That will allow me to install the air
>conditioner (!) I want, which only comes in a 24 volt version. I'd
>leave the ship at 12 volts, and power those loads from the inter-battery
>connection.
>
>I'd connect the remaining 12 volt alternator to that "lower" battery as
>well.
>
>Let's say the 12 volt battery is offline and the 28 volt alternator is
>cranking away... the "upper" battery will eventually get fully
>charged... the upper batter will then just be a wet piece of wire (kind
>of) to the 12 volt load? Or would there be a problem with the lower
>battery not getting charged enough, or the upper batter overcharged?
>
>Paul, making my head hurt mode
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
At 03:38 PM 2/23/2008 -0800, you wrote:
><paulmillner@compuserve.com>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I enjoyed reading your recent discussion of paralleling batteries.
>
>Instead, I'm wondering about converting one of my two alternators to 24
>volt (28 volt, whatever nominal voltage you prefer!) to charge two 12 volt
>batteries in series. That will allow me to install the air conditioner
>(!) I want, which only comes in a 24 volt version. I'd leave the ship at
>12 volts, and power those loads from the inter-battery connection.
>
>I'd connect the remaining 12 volt alternator to that "lower" battery as well.
>
>Let's say the 12 volt battery is offline and the 28 volt alternator is
>cranking away... the "upper" battery will eventually get fully charged...
>the upper batter will then just be a wet piece of wire (kind of) to the 12
>volt load? Or would there be a problem with the lower battery not getting
>charged enough, or the upper batter overcharged?
>
>Paul, making my head hurt mode
This is an intuitively attractive idea but
fraught with many potholes in the physics
of implementation.
The only time that a battery benefits the
operation of the 28v system is to support
inrush currents for getting the compressor
motor going. If the 28v alternator only
runs the AC compressor motor, then I'm thinking
you could craft a controller/regulator that would
let the alternator drive the motor directly without
a battery. This pre-supposes that the compressor
motor will soft-start at torque levels that
do not exceed the upper limits of the alternator's
magnetics.
I think this is the case. It would be relatively
easy to demonstrate on a drive stand before
going after the controller/regulator design.
Given that you have a mechanical connection
to the engine to drive a dedicated alternator,
the obvious elegant solution is to drive the
compressor from this location and eliminate
an alternator, a regulator/controller, a
compressor drive motor and possibly a second
battery.
Believe me, we pondered this question multiple
times at Beech for about 40 years . . . and
the slickest way to do it is put the compressor
right on the engine.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: AUX BAttery Charging |
At 10:52 AM 2/23/2008 +1100, you wrote:
>
>Thanks to Bob, Matt and Max for your replies.
>
>Bob the AUX Batt is just being used to power the EFIS during engine
>cranking. I lose the EFIS initialization and have to sit in the one spot
>for 2 mins after engine start for the GYRO's to align. It is also a last
>ditch power source for the SBY ADI (TRUTRACK) in case every thing turns to poo.
>
>I have the Z13/8. One main batt and 35 AMP ALT and the B & C 8 AMP ALT.
Then your concerns for supporting the ADI with
a second battery are overkill. 13/8 is exceedingly
unlikely to leave you with a dark panel.
>I think I will try and optimise the setup I have. The wires to and from
>the diode are less than 12 inches. I had see your AUX BATT drawing but
>wanted to try and keep this as simple as possible, providing it works of
>course.
Then parallel a second, small battery with the main
battery a-la Z-35 . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z35A.pdf
Power your protected electro-whizzies from
the Aux Battery Bus. Leave it's master switch
OFF until after the engine is started. The
S704-1 relay is only a 100 mA load and not
a major no-value-added load during alternator
out operations . . . which you're not going to
experience anyway with two alternators. Dump
the diode and fuse.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: [OT] boat wiring specificity |
At 04:19 PM 2/22/2008 +0100, you wrote:
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Bob and all,
>
>A buddy just asked me some advice about the electrical circuit of the 22
>ft sailing boat he is building for a transatlantic race this summer.
>He intends to use lithium batteries and fuel cells to power a navigation
>unit, autopilot, LED navigation lights, one VHF, SSB and a basic GPS.
>As several listers here may have experience with ocean racing, would
>anyone give opinions as to the main differences with aviation wiring
>techniques ?
Energy management tasks for either environment are
the same. Materials used might benefit from
judicious selection to accommodate the wet and salty
environment. Obviously, things not yet blessed
by the aviation community for use aboard a/c could
be considered aboard a boat . . . with reservations.
Yeah, there's plenty of water around to fight fires
and yeah, temporary distractions of the pilot due
to systems crises is perhaps lower risk.
But in my own mind, being hundreds to thousands of
miles from terrafirm on water is no less hazardous
than being 1000 feet above terrafirma on air.
I think I would treat the two design tasks with
similar caution, quest for robustness, and requirements
for failure tolerance.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
Paul (and List),
Drawing 12v from the center of a 12+12v string won't work, at least not for
long. We tried that on an MCI bus at our church -- a small 12v load
FLATTENED the battery it was connected across, even though the 28v regulator
was holding solid and the other battery was fully charged. We finally found
a battery equalizer from MCI and it solved the problem. See
http://www.powerdesigners.com/powercheq.htm for an equalizer suitable for a
plane.
Blue skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
Augusta GA
90% done, 90% left
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
>> fraught with many potholes in the physics of implementation
Bob,
I see Jim's note about the failure of a series battery loaded at the center tap.
What are the physics that allow the series to appear to have 28 volts while
the lower battery is flat?
Paul
--------
Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165980#165980
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
>> We finally found a battery equalizer from MCI and it solved the problem.
Not sure what an MCI bus is, Jim, but thanks for the data point and the point out
of the equalizer site. Looks like the equalizer can handle 2 amps, so if your
tiny load is that or less, on average, the lower battery can stay charged...
but I'm not sure I understand how the series battery could appear to be charged
to 24 volts with the lower battery flat?
Paul
--------
Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165982#165982
Message 9
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| Subject: | AUX BAttery Charging |
This is a function of the internal resistance of the battery.
A good battery will draw more current.
This is a bad idea to charge this in this manner.
It's OK to use this to maintain the battery. But if you use the battery you
should remove it and charge it on a regular charger and then re-install it
to the circuit.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jack.byrne@bigpond.com
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: AUX BAttery Charging
All.
I have a 4AMP/HR battery as an AUX battery for my EFIS.
I am charging it via the main bus.
Bus-5amp fuse-diode-aux bat. 18G wire
The Diode has the #'s 339 and IN5400 on it.
The 5 amp fuse blows!
How can I get around this. I am assuming the AUX bat is drawing a greater
current if it gets depleted a resonable amount and this is blowing th fuse.
Do I need to increase the size of the wire and fuse?
What is the max AMPs that will be drawn by the AUX bat?
Thanks
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
As a battery get's old it's internal resistance increases.
The bad battery is just going to get warm when you apply the 28 volt across
both batteries. It will drop the voltage as an I*R loss.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
paulmillner
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries in Series
<paulmillner@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>> We finally found a battery equalizer from MCI and it solved the problem.
Not sure what an MCI bus is, Jim, but thanks for the data point and the
point out of the equalizer site. Looks like the equalizer can handle 2
amps, so if your tiny load is that or less, on average, the lower battery
can stay charged... but I'm not sure I understand how the series battery
could appear to be charged to 24 volts with the lower battery flat?
Paul
--------
Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165982#165982
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Low voltage indicator for LR3 |
Hmmm. I am planning a circuit that will light that same LED when the
master or auxiliary contactor is engaged when the engine isn't running
(eg. left on after flight). They neglected to mention this bias
resistor when I called to ask about the circuitry inside. This will
change my design somewhat.
Do you know what the resistor value is ?
Thanks !
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
> At 07:20 PM 2/23/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>> My notes from talking with someone at B&C is that pin 5 is a FET
>> output protected by a 1N4752 zener (which is 33V). Where does the
>> leakage come from ?
>> Jeff Page
>> Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
> If you study the schematic cited below, you'll see a resistor
> connected from collector to base (or drain to gate if fet)
> that generates an artificial leakage.
>
> This leakage is overcome by the hard pull-down on the
> LV warn comparator but insufficient to illuminate an
> incandescent lamp. The purpose of that leakage is to
> cause a steady illumination of the LV warn lamp should
> power to the LV warn circuitry within the LR-3 be lost.
> The leakage will partially bias the lamp drive and cause
> the lamp to glow steady.
>
> This design goal gets in the way of allowing an LED
> to go completely dark. The tiny leakage current that
> produced no light on an incandescent lamp produces
> significant light in the LED. Hence, the load resistor
> to make an LED look like an incandescent.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
>> As a battery gets old its internal resistance increases.
The bad battery is just going to get warm when you apply the 28 volt across both
batteries. It will drop the voltage as an I*R loss.
Isn't that EXACTLY what you want to see happen? Drop 12 volts across the "upper"
battery to impose 12 volts on the lower battery that's feeding a 12 volt load.
Is it your position, then, that this would work with new batteries but not with
old batteries? That doesn't seem intuitive.
Paul
--------
Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166019#166019
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Low voltage indicator for LR3 |
I used a 470 ohm 1/2 W resistor (5 for $0.99 at Radio Shack) for our
installation.
Works great. LED is off most of the time; flashes when battery is
initially turned on.
-----------------
"With the possible exception of the equator, everything begins
somewhere."
C. S. Lewis
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low voltage indicator for LR3
> From: Jeff Page <jpx@Qenesis.com>
> Date: Sun, February 24, 2008 5:46 pm
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
> Hmmm. I am planning a circuit that will light that same LED when the
> master or auxiliary contactor is engaged when the engine isn't running
> (eg. left on after flight). They neglected to mention this bias
> resistor when I called to ask about the circuitry inside. This will
> change my design somewhat.
> Do you know what the resistor value is ?
> Thanks !
> Jeff Page
> Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
> > At 07:20 PM 2/23/2008 -0500, you wrote:
> >> My notes from talking with someone at B&C is that pin 5 is a FET
> >> output protected by a 1N4752 zener (which is 33V). Where does the
> >> leakage come from ?
> >> Jeff Page
> >> Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
> >
> > If you study the schematic cited below, you'll see a resistor
> > connected from collector to base (or drain to gate if fet)
> > that generates an artificial leakage.
> >
> > This leakage is overcome by the hard pull-down on the
> > LV warn comparator but insufficient to illuminate an
> > incandescent lamp. The purpose of that leakage is to
> > cause a steady illumination of the LV warn lamp should
> > power to the LV warn circuitry within the LR-3 be lost.
> > The leakage will partially bias the lamp drive and cause
> > the lamp to glow steady.
> >
> > This design goal gets in the way of allowing an LED
> > to go completely dark. The tiny leakage current that
> > produced no light on an incandescent lamp produces
> > significant light in the LED. Hence, the load resistor
> > to make an LED look like an incandescent.
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | NEARLY ready for first flight |
470 ohms 1/2 W resistor between pins 3 and 5, heat shrink insulated,
that did the trick.
My son's project is now flying off the Phase I hours; LED low voltage
indicator works great.
THANKS ALL!
-----------------
"With the possible exception of the equator, everything begins
somewhere."
C. S. Lewis
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: NEARLY ready for first flight
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
> Date: Thu, February 21, 2008 5:40 pm
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
> At 10:22 PM 2/20/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Cassius,
> >
> >I used an LED also and it is always lit. It flashes for low volt. Bob
> >published, somewhere on his website, a diagram for adding a couple of
> >resistors to make it not glow all the time, but I have not got around to
> >doing the fix. I guess I just got used to thinking of it as a low volt
> >sensor armed light.
>
> LEDs and incandescent lamps are not directly interchangeable
> in this application. You need to add a resistor to the LR-3
> terminals to get the LED to masquerade as an incandescent
> device. I think 470 ohm, 1/2 watt between terminals 3 and
> 5 of the LR3. This applies to LEDs with built in resistors
> that turn them into 12v devices.
>
> If you're assembling your own LED indicator from scratch
> then you need both a series AND a parallel resistor. Here's
> one of several approaches that would work:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LV_Led.jpg
>
> Bob. . .
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
At 15:38 2/23/2008, you wrote:
>Let's say the 12 volt battery is offline and the 28 volt alternator
>is cranking away... the "upper" battery will eventually get fully
>charged... the upper batter will then just be a wet piece of wire
>(kind of) to the 12 volt load? Or would there be a problem with the
>lower battery not getting charged enough, or the upper batter overcharged?
I'm not sure I've seen mentioned just what type battery is in use.
But I suggest, at least for a flooded cell battery, that each cell is
isolated from it's neighbors, that is it is a single ~1.5 volt
unit. If that premise is accurate, just how is a charging system to
know the physical packaging of the 12 cells it is charging? One
package x 12 or two packages x 6 each... Dead, weak or otherwise
'different' cells are just that, no matter where in the series of
cells they occur, and the charging system couldn't care less.
Ron Q.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
>> Dead, weak or otherwise 'different' cells are just that, no matter where in
the series of cells they occur, and the charging system couldn't care less.
The difference, Ron, is that we're serving some 12 volt load from the "middle"
of the battery... which is a bit of a cell equalization challenge.
Paul
--------
Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166052#166052
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Batteries in Series |
When every you try to charge two batteries in series that are not similar
(Size, Capacity, Discharge State, Overall Condition ... all the same) you
often get improper charging. This is because the current needed to charge
each battery to the charged level is different, but since they are in series
they will be getting the same current. As you try to pump more current
through the good battery you get a full 12V from the good battery plus it's
IR loss which will cause a lower than needed voltage on the battery that
needs to be charged. Hence it will deteriorate over time.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
paulmillner
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 6:47 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries in Series
<paulmillner@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>> As a battery gets old its internal resistance increases.
The bad battery is just going to get warm when you apply the 28 volt across
both batteries. It will drop the voltage as an I*R loss.
Isn't that EXACTLY what you want to see happen? Drop 12 volts across the
"upper" battery to impose 12 volts on the lower battery that's feeding a 12
volt load.
Is it your position, then, that this would work with new batteries but not
with old batteries? That doesn't seem intuitive.
Paul
--------
Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166019#166019
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