AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 03/17/08


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:12 AM - Re: Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum) (Carlos Trigo)
     2. 10:16 AM - Re: Van's Ammeter Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 10:19 AM - test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 10:44 AM - Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 10:44 AM - Re: Audio iso amp ordered, never received (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 10:45 AM - Z-19 with Z-30 and Z-31B (John McMahon)
     7. 11:01 AM - Re: KX196 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 11:15 AM - Re: Z-19 with Z-30 and Z-31B (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 12:57 PM - Re: Van's Ammeter Question (rampil)
    10. 02:37 PM - Re: Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 03:12 PM - Re: Re: Van's Ammeter Question (ECLarsen81@aol.com)
    12. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Van's Ammeter Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 07:00 PM - Re: DPDT high-current contactor needed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:12:45 AM PST US
    From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
    Subject: Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum)
    > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: segunda-feira, 17 de Mar=E7o de 2008 2:01 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum) > > > A couple of hours after I replied to this it occurred to me that > you probably were not incorporating a press-to-test light fixture > nor did you mention crowbar ov protection. I've updated the > schematics in the article to include "Ground Power Lite" without > OV protection and using a plain vanilla lamp fixture. See the > last page of: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf > > Is this more like what you needed? > > Bob . . . You=92re right on target, Bob. Thanks again (Having a good teacher and being a good pupil ' forgive my immodesty ' I had already wired it yesterday like you now designed, and it worked!!) Carlos


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:16:57 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Van's Ammeter Question
    At 06:56 AM 3/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Anyone know why Van's Ammeter gauge requires a +12V source >(independent of lighting)? Don't know for sure. I've ordered one to find out. >My hangar neighbor is building a -7 and noticed that when he keys >his ICOM his ammeter goes to 20-30 Amps on some frequencies but >only 2-3 Amps on others. > >Externally, the ammeter looks like a standard analog mechanical >gauge using an external shunt and with no technical docs provided >by Vans. > >My buddy also has RFI on his trim servo indicator (apparently quite >common) and on his Van's Manifold Pressure gauge. > >Shielded cable apparently does the trick for the servo, but I'd like >to understand the Ammeter a bit better before throwing bypass >caps and ferrites at it. Van's ammeter appears to be enhanced with internal electronics. The rudimentary meter movement is not sensitive to radio frequency interference. It's unfortunate that suppliers to the OBAM aircraft industry are so slow on the uptake for rudimentary design skills. It should NEVER be the responsibility of the installer to RFI-proof the system. On the TC side of the house, all accessories are tested in the lab and the designer is only rarely allowed to take credit for external shielding and/or filters on the interconnect cables. We see this a lot in consumer electronics where video, data and some audio cables come with some form of RFI mitigation enhancement on them. In each of these cases, the cables are pre-assembled and the end user is never expected to fabricate one that is longer or has different connectors on it. In aircraft, the installers are always expected to fabricate cables and install connectors. Installations of a product over time and many different airframes can experience a wide variety of assaults from EMC/RFI issues. As I write these words, I'm assisting an OEM with a random nuisance tripping of the fault detection system in a product that is over 20 years old and installed by the thousands in aircraft where this phenomenon has never manifested itself. However, in this new installation, a device that has been traditionally installed in the nose has been moved to the top of the vertical fin on a large a/c. This is the first time (anyone knows of) that the harness became so long and traversed so many EMC gauntlets on its way through the a/c. A review of schematics for the product revealed some ill-conceived filtering on i/o pins . . . that PASSED DO-160 conducted and radiated susceptibility tests 20+ years ago. When root cause of this problem is deduced, I'm betting that a few changes to components inside the product will fix it. But changing anything inside will raise re-certification flags with those-who-know-more-about-airplanes-than-we-do. We may well have to fabricate a filtered connector to go on the end of our interface harness. Seems the installer controls harnesses and are not part of the cert basis for the appliance. We can fix the problem with an external band-aid without having to re-qualify the appliance. The bureaucratic Catch 22 causes us to do really dumb things to work around the do-gooders. On the OBAM aircraft side of the house, suppliers of devices like trim indicators and ammeters can make indicated improvements to their products in a heartbeat without seeking anyone's permission. Problem is getting them to recognize shortcomings of their design and fix them. The TC guys will go to great lengths to avoid significant changes to the certification effort. I've seen changes to a 10-cent resistor generate thousands of dollars in re-qualification testing! (sigh) As soon as the Van's ammeter gets here, I'll see what makes it tick and report back to the group. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:19:49 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: test
    Wondering if the server is asleep . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:44:07 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum)
    At 01:53 AM 3/16/2008 +0000, you wrote: ><trigo@mail.telepac.pt> > >Listers > >I installed a Piper-type male socket to my airplane, to have the possibility >of a ground start in case of a low battery cranking difficulty. >As recommended by this List experts, I connected the socket to the battery >through a continuous duty contactor (aka Master Relay or Battery solenoid), >the S701-1 from B&C, controlled by a SPST switch, which grounds the >contactor when thrown to ON. > >Now what I want to do is to put a green enunciator light in my panel, which >illuminates when that switch is ON and the contactor is closed to allow the >ground start procedure, to remind me to switch it Off after finishing that >procedure. > >I have tried some wiring of the warning light to the switch, but I cannot >make it work properly. Can somebody please enlighten me how to wire it? Carlos, A couple of hours after I replied to this it occurred to me that you probably were not incorporating a press-to-test light fixture nor did you mention crowbar ov protection. I've updated the schematics in the article to include "Ground Power Lite" without OV protection and using a plain vanilla lamp fixture. See the last page of: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf Is this more like what you needed? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:44:13 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Audio iso amp ordered, never received
    At 07:19 PM 3/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: ><dhyde01@earthlink.net> > >First, to all, Bob Nuckolls included, I apologize for bringing this up >here, but I don't see any alternative. >Bob, I ordered an audio isolation amp board from you in December and paid >using Paypal. You said you were >planning on updating the board but would pull one and send it to me. I've >sent messages through the message >area, e-mails using the address in your responses to my questions before >ordering, and a request for info on the >Aeroelectric list. I've gotten no response or recognition that you've >received any of my attempts at communication. > >So: Can you let me know what's going on with my order? I wouldn't mind >the wait if I knew something was happening >at your end but that just hasn't been the case. My apologies. I HAVE 20 some boards around here somewhere. After your request came in I modified the artwork to include some later enhancements and ordered boards. They came in with some other boards and I've misplaced them. I've had so many irons in the fire the past few months that my shop is presently in a stage II train wreck. They're not lost, I just don't know where I "filed" them. I've just ordered another batch. They should be here Wednesday morning. I'll get your board out Wednesday afternoon via priority mail. I wasn't planning on resurrecting this product but when I find the first batch, I'll have "plenty" on hand. I guess I'll have to put it back up on the website! In the mean time, things re starting to spool down a bit on the 20hr/wk (yeah right!) consulting job. Weather is getting warmer and I'd really like to get the alternator drive stand in the garage running as well as cleanup/organize the shop! Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:45:03 AM PST US
    From: "John McMahon" <blackoaks@gmail.com>
    Subject: Z-19 with Z-30 and Z-31B
    I connected my Piper style socket to a brass bus bar which will connect my two 12 v. batteries on the aircraft side of the contactors. I was doing this to keep the batteries isolated from each other unless both battery contactors were closed. This would allow charging either or both batteries or only powering aircraft systems from the ground power plug. If I understand correctly, that would not be a good idea because powering aircraft systems without a battery on line is a bad idea. Any pros or cons to this? On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > At 01:53 AM 3/16/2008 +0000, you wrote: > > ><trigo@mail.telepac.pt> > > > >Listers > > > >I installed a Piper-type male socket to my airplane, to have the > possibility > >of a ground start in case of a low battery cranking difficulty. > >As recommended by this List experts, I connected the socket to the > battery > >through a continuous duty contactor (aka Master Relay or Battery > solenoid), > >the S701-1 from B&C, controlled by a SPST switch, which grounds the > >contactor when thrown to ON. > > > >Now what I want to do is to put a green enunciator light in my panel, > which > >illuminates when that switch is ON and the contactor is closed to allow > the > >ground start procedure, to remind me to switch it Off after finishing > that > >procedure. > > > >I have tried some wiring of the warning light to the switch, but I cannot > >make it work properly. Can somebody please enlighten me how to wire it? > > > Carlos, > > A couple of hours after I replied to this it occurred to me that > you probably were not incorporating a press-to-test light fixture > nor did you mention crowbar ov protection. I've updated the > schematics in the article to include "Ground Power Lite" without > OV protection and using a plain vanilla lamp fixture. See the > last page of: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf > > Is this more like what you needed? > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > -- John McMahon Lancair Super ES, S/N 170, N9637M (Reserved)


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:01:42 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: KX196
    At 05:38 AM 3/13/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >I have sort of an electrical problem/issue and I was wondering if you >could give me some guidance. I have a pristine Bendix King KLX 100 GPS >Portable Nav Com that I want to use primarily to listen to air traffic >while in my hangar. It runs fine on the eight AA batteries required but I >want to use AC in the hangar and/or DC in my car to power it. It doesn't >have the factory cords. So I called Bendix King and they want 350 for the >AC cord and 150 for the DC cord the total of which is more than the unit >itself is worth. I was wondering if there was some way for me to figure >out which type of AC and DC cords I could use say from Radio Shack or some >other supplier to get the job done. > >As I'm sure you know some AC cords are 9v some 12v with different outputs >from 500millamps on up. The DC cords also come in varieties. My owner's >manual doesn't say much on what is required for AC or DC power. Is there >any way for me to figure this out based on the batteries used to power the >unit, (8 AA's) or is there some other resource that could assist me? What does the external power connector look like on the radio? Does it look like the external power jacks found on most consumer electronics? See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Power/Coaxial_DC_Power.jpg If so, it's only necessary to find the appropriate "wall wart" power supply and mating connector. If not this form factor, take a picture of the external power port on your radio and send it to me. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:15:38 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Z-19 with Z-30 and Z-31B
    At 10:39 AM 3/17/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > I connected my Piper style socket to a brass bus bar which will connect > my two 12 v. batteries on the aircraft side of the contactors. I was > doing this to keep the batteries isolated from each other unless both > battery contactors were closed. This would allow charging either or both > batteries or only powering aircraft systems from the ground power plug. > If I understand correctly, that would not be a good idea because powering > aircraft systems without a battery on line is a bad idea. Any pros or > cons to this? There's been much discussion on this over the years. Generally speaking in the TC world, ground power is not considered a battery charging tool. In fact, it's not recommended that the pilot use ground power to get an engine started with a dead battery . . . ground power is to ASSIST the battery for difficult starts, i.e. cold weather or long cranking cycles for turbine engines, and ground maintenance. You can use what ever philosophy you're comfortable with. My reason for the architecture shown is that first, a pilot has absolute control over incoming power. Second, ground power can be applied, turned on and verified for polarity and proper voltage before the battery master is closed thus connecting the ground power/battery combination to the aircraft's systems. For your situation, being able to charge only one of the two batteries should not be a problem very often during your ownership of the airplane. On the other hand, when that kid standing out in the cold wind, back to you is flipping switches on that WWII surplus gasoline driven generator, it would be nice if YOU were the final arbiter of when ground power is actually applied to your airplane's electrical system. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:57:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Van's Ammeter Question
    From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
    Thanks Bob, It's hard to imagine why they would need an "enhancement" to the rudimentary meter movement since they are so widely used in this shunt current (voltage) range without. Also, the price of the meter from Van's suggests they are just custom labeling a automotive movement. Well, we will see thanks to Bob's generosity! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170457#170457


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:37:35 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Ground Start enunciator light (Addendum)
    At 09:44 PM 3/16/2008 -0500, you wrote: ><willslau@comcast.net> > >On a related note: >The instructions for modifying the receptacle call for a propane torch or >"large soldering iron". How large an iron? I ask because I incinerated the >phenolic insulator when I tried to solder it with my propane torch, and have >just ordered a replacement receptacle to try again. If I preheat the bolt in >the oven, would a Weller 100/140 soldering gun have enough oomph? If not, >????. No. Go to Home Depot or Lowes and see if you can find a Bernzomatic ST100T micro torch. This is my all time favorite although I don't find it described on the Bernszomatic website. It may be discontinued. In any case, you need a micro-torch not unlike those shown at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Gas_Tools/ Harbor Freight has some butane micro-torches as do many hardware stores. I think Walmart stocks one too. Ace Hardware stores have: http://tinyurl.com/2tgatp Also, use 63/37 alloy solder. This stuff melts at 361F and flows nicely below 400. There's a rubber-bumper on the end of the receptacle center-pin. Pull this off for soldering operations and replace it after the pin cools. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:12:34 PM PST US
    From: ECLarsen81@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Van's Ammeter Question
    The instruments themselves are manufactured by ISS for Van's, and now Cheif and Aircraft Spruce both sell the same item with different faceplates. I did open the case to take a peek and it had a small circuit board with SM parts all over it. You'll have fun with it Bob. I gleaned all this when I ordered one from spruce for a customer of mine, it didn't come with instructions but had 4 pins on the back, so I called spruce. The saleperson there gave me the number to an engineer at ISS who was very unhappy I interupted his day. I did get the instructions from van's site and a few weeks later a friend ordered one for his homebuilt from spruce. This time it came with the Van's instructions. so the engineer must have got it resolved in that direction. So far as I know, niether installation has had problems so I'd be curious as well. Ed Larsen (43G) Larsen Airpark **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:10:17 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Van's Ammeter Question
    At 06:08 PM 3/17/2008 -0400, you wrote: > The instruments themselves are manufactured by ISS for Van's, and now > Cheif and Aircraft Spruce both sell the same item with different faceplates. > I did open the case to take a peek and it had a small circuit board with > SM parts all over it. You'll have fun with it Bob. > I gleaned all this when I ordered one from spruce for a customer of > mine, it didn't come with instructions but had 4 pins on the back, so I > called spruce. The saleperson there gave me the number to an engineer at > ISS who was very unhappy I interupted his day. I did get the instructions > from van's site and a few weeks later a friend ordered one for his > homebuilt from spruce. This time it came with the Van's instructions. so > the engineer must have got it resolved in that direction. > So far as I know, niether installation has had problems so I'd be > curious as well. > Ed Larsen > (43G) Larsen Airpark Thank you for sharing this. It's what I would have guessed that it has some form of electronics. When you have an instrument with this mechanical span (approx 270 degrees) you either use a stepper motor or a moving magnet suspended in quadrature coils. You can buy a motor driven instrument for $40 so it must be a moving magnet device. There are a number of integrated circuits designed to drive a 2-coil instrument motor . . . many transistors capable of responding to VHF radios. Do you have a name and phone number for the engineer at ISS? Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:00:20 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: DPDT high-current contactor needed
    At 10:02 PM 3/16/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, Listers, > >I need a manually operated double pole double throw contactor that will >carry (not make or break) up to 400 amps. I'm building a 14v system, but my >engine requires 24v to spin the starter. My plan is to install 2 batteries. >Normal configuration will be parallel for charging and normal running, but >switching one battery into a series configuration for starting. Actual >starting will be with a starter contactor, so the dpdt contactor won't make >or break the starting current. Any thoughts on where I could find such a >contactor? The last time I saw a series-parallel battery controller it was a about half the size of a breadbox, weighed about 10 pounds and cost a couple of grand. Of course, this was an electrically engaged/disengaged device. It was a WWII era design. I think a Hartman product. Not part of their current bag of tricks that I could see . . . http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/hartman.asp I'm unaware of any manually operated device for this purpose. On the TC side of the house, we go to a LOT of effort to avoid a need for such agility in battery management. Here's a drawing I did for a client some years ago to address a similar requirement. He didn't need 400A so the Stancore/White-Rogers contactors would suffice. If this approach works for you, you'll need to consider some heavier devices. Perhaps Type 124? http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/Catalog_2006/Pg_054_55.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------




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