---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/18/08: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:15 AM - AeroElectric Manual (Keith Rhea) 2. 08:05 AM - Re: DPDT high-current contactor needed (Jim McBurney) 3. 08:35 AM - Re: AeroElectric Manual (David Dalton) 4. 12:22 PM - Re: DPDT high-current contactor needed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 12:48 PM - Re: AeroElectric Manual (Charlie England) 6. 04:25 PM - (jim-bean@ATT.NET) 7. 05:49 PM - Smoke () 8. 08:50 PM - Re: Smoke (Sam Hoskins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:55 AM PST US From: Keith Rhea Subject: AeroElectric-List: AeroElectric Manual Bob: any chance of getting an manual? I have tried to order online. Thanks Keith Rhea N52VP ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:06 AM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DPDT high-current contactor needed Hi, Bob, I miswrote in my original post, and was graciously corrected off-list by bakerocb@cox.net. I should have used the term "switch" instead of "contactor", as what I envision is a dpdt switch, manually operated, that is heavy enough to carry the ~400 amps that the starter might pull when engaged. Normal operating current would be much less, just battery charge current. I would throw the switch to "start" before energizing the starter contactor, giving me 24v at the starter, then go back to "run" position when starting is complete. 0 amps make and break on the "start" side, few amps make and break on "run" side, must carry the heavy current when starter is energized. bakerocb@cox.net gave me a link to Blue Sea Systems, which may have what I need. Other suggestions are welcome, though. Oh, and DO NOT ARCHIVE. (I forgot that last post.) Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:52 AM PST US From: "David Dalton" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AeroElectric Manual I placed an order a couple weeks back also, and am still anxiously waiting for delivery. David Dalton On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Keith Rhea wrote: > > Bob: any chance of getting an manual? I have tried to order online. > > Thanks > > Keith Rhea > N52VP > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DPDT high-current contactor needed At 10:54 AM 3/18/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, Bob, > >I miswrote in my original post, and was graciously corrected off-list by >bakerocb@cox.net. I should have used the term "switch" instead of >"contactor", as what I envision is a dpdt switch, manually operated, that is >heavy enough to carry the ~400 amps that the starter might pull when >engaged. Normal operating current would be much less, just battery charge >current. I would throw the switch to "start" before energizing the starter >contactor, giving me 24v at the starter, then go back to "run" position when >starting is complete. 0 amps make and break on the "start" side, few amps >make and break on "run" side, must carry the heavy current when starter is >energized. >bakerocb@cox.net gave me a link to Blue Sea Systems, which may have what I >need. Other suggestions are welcome, though. >Oh, and DO NOT ARCHIVE. (I forgot that last post.) That's what I understood you to mean . . . and the only products I've seen to address that design goal were not manual devices . . . but custom electro-mechanical constructs. You can emulate this activity with a series of single pole, battery switches that are readily available through speed shops. Battery disconnect switches are required on most competition vehicles. As long as you throw them in the proper sequence, you won't blow any fat fuses. My best recommendation is that you use the contactor array described . . . Perhaps someone on the List has a broader experience/ knowledge than I and can make a recommendation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:22 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AeroElectric Manual My wife ordered one for my B-day about 8 days ago, & it came in 4 days later. Charlie David Dalton wrote: > I placed an order a couple weeks back also, and am still anxiously > waiting for delivery. > > David Dalton > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Keith Rhea > wrote: > > > > > Bob: any chance of getting an manual? I have tried to order online. > > Thanks > > Keith Rhea > N52VP > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:00 PM PST US From: jim-bean@ATT.NET ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:35 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Smoke Last evening I experienced smoke in the cockpit of my Kitfox--912S. First, I want to thank Bob N for convincing me of the importance of using Z16, incorporating an E-Bus circuit. Worked great and reduced the load on my "little" motorcycle battery so that I maintained > 11.5 v for the 15 min duration of my flt. It was twilight & I had Whelan strobe & nav lights on, near max elec capacity for the 912 generator. I threw on the landing lt to see what the added load would do to the system. (Probably not a smart move) Immediately the system voltage, normally runs 13v, began dropping, so I turned the landing lt off after a few seconds. I then began doing a series of steep climbs at slow airspeed. After about five min I noticed a burning odder, thinking to myself "someone must be burning trash and I'm in the trail of smoke." After about 30 seconds I noticed smoke coming from under the instrument panel and a much stronger burning odder. I dropped the nose of the airplane--no more smoke. At that moment my GRT EIS warning lt flashed and I noticed the system voltage below 11 v. I turned on the E Bus switch and off on the main. Voltage came up--12 v I think. No odder or smoke or falling voltage. After a few minutes I decided to try the main switch again, pulling in the battery relay and alternator. Voltage began to climb above 12 v to about 12.5 v. I added strobe & nav lt again causing an immediate reversal in voltage trend and warning lt came on again as it plunged below 11 v. Again I went to E Bus an off main. I landed uneventfully. My guess is the relay over heated with the momentary excessive electrical draw (does that happen?) causing the smoke. Any Ideas? I assume I need to replace the regulator??? What would you recommend as a replacement regulator/source. Anything else?????? Thanks Frank N5929 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:01 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Smoke *Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e., say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires. It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tires leak air and the British defense establishment leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electronics leak smoke. The Theory Explained through Discussion. When wires smoke, how come the smoke is not the same color as the wire? This is not completely true. When the smoke is in the wire, it is under pressure (called voltage). The pressure difference causes the color to change from the normal color we are used to. Not unlike the blood in our veins and arteries changing color due to the oxygen content. When the smoke escapes the wire and is exposed to air, the pressure is released, and the color reverts back to what we commonly recognize as smoke. The wire then changes to the color of the smoke that escaped. I hope this helps you understand. I would only question the last sentence of that description. It has been my experience that the wire turns a color directly opposite of the smoke. Not always true, I think it must depend on the composition of the smoke in question. I should have made it a little clearer; the color the wire becomes, is directly proportional to the escape velocity of the smoke. Higher velocities generate higher heat. This heat tends to burn the wire and affect the coloring. The statement was meant to be a generalization, indicating the fact that the color of the wire does in fact change. Sorry for the miscommu nication. I was speaking of electrical smoke which is generally white. The spent smoke casing generally assumes a color somewhat near black after the smoke leaves. I can't stand it anymore! If, as you say, light bulbs suck up darkness and convert it to smoke which is transmitted (via wire) to a power source for recycling...why do car batteries go dead when lights are left on? Do car batteries (and flashlight batteries for that matter) have a limited amount of storage capability? Is it like a hard drive that gets so full that you have to double-space and then lose all data? Now you're getting it....... I thought you guys were smarter than this. Of course the battery stores the smoke. In fact it can store so much smoke that if you open the top and light a match, the resulting explosion can do serious damage. I'm sure you are aware that usually where there's smoke there's fire. If you connect the battery to a charger, the smoke is then returned to the wire (Remember, a light bulb wont work unless it is connected to a wire system) for the utility companies to use. Your hard drive analogy is a very good example. Our hardware guys might be onto something in their quest for superior wiring. I have noticed the unique method of series/parallel wiring the power strips on our systems seems to prevent the smoke from getting out of the wires. A "Smoke Loop" of sorts. In the case of the "smoked" workstation recently, you should notice that this was a conventional single power strip installation. Since color is perceived by the cone shaped receptors in our eyes, and cones require more light that their rod shaped counterparts. Is the sky blue at night? At night the process including contraction of the pupil is visual purple by which the eye adapts to conditions of increased illumination when facing 300 candle power redeflecting devices. Since there is a spectrum of light that we as humans cannot see, I support the theory that everything is going up in smoke, we just can't see it. This may explain why the neighbors dog barks for no apparent reason. I think your basic understanding of smoke systems is remarkable. However I find a flaw with your theory. The battery is a reusable storage device for smoke. therefore, one would assume that some sort of one way valve (we can call it a diode) should be needed to prevent pressure flooding back into the system while at rest. Unlike the A/C system, the smoke system is collecting darkness at the headlights and converting it to smoke. This causes the system to fill up. The battery can contain much higher pressures and volumes than the wires. If this pressure exceeds the capacity of the wire, it will cause a rupture as you described. The rupture can be controlled by a sacrificial device known as a fuse. Bu t this still doesn't eliminate the problem. Perhaps a two way valve (zener diode) is used to allow a small amount of pressure to return to the system, and partially equalize. I find this theory unlikely though, due to the increase in the force required to start the pump (which is now under pressure) working again... The smoke continues circulating through the system, due to the pressure differential in the battery (smoke pressure/vacuum reservoir). When the reservoir becomes depleted, the pressure simply equalizes everywhere in the system (similar to an A/C system when it's turned off) and stuff just wont work. Notice the relations: Work (W) = Force (F) x Distance (D); Force (F) = total difference in pressure (Dp) x Area (A). Therefore, the work done in a pressure system is: Dp x A x D. If the pressure differential (Dp) is reduced to zero then W = 0 x A x D = 0. The smoke only escapes the wires when a path is created b etween the pressure differential areas (@ either the reservoir or the pump) that has too little restriction. When this happens, the smoke travels through the wires so fast that the friction between the smoke and the outer walls of the wiring heats the wires until they rupture. The smoke continues to escape until its pressure is equalized with the atmosphere, or until the conduit that provides the path between pressure areas is severed. When this happens, the sudden drop in pressure allows the wires to "collapse" slightly and, being soo hot, as the edges of the ruptures and severed ends touch, the material becomes fused, sealing the system and retaining the remaining smoke. Don't forget, when the system is at rest, all the valves, (switches and relays) are closed, keeping the pressure areas separated. When restarting the pump, as long as everything is OK, the smoke pressure is equal on both sides of the pump and there is no net force on the pump when it begins operating again. Also, within the pump there are pressure/volume actuated one-way valves with restrictors built in, arranged in such a way that they keep excess smoke volume recirculating through an integral smoke loop, which maintains the pressure within manageable limits. The excess smoke, created by the light/smoke converters (headlights and other darkness absorbing devices), is changed back to darkness and dissipated in small unit concentrations so its dark effect is not locally observed. The smoke pump impeller (stator), converts smoke into magnetic flux which does work on the engine. Some of the excess work energy is dissipated through the cooling system and exhaust in the form of heat, while the remaining work energy is converted back to smoke and distributed evenly in small concentrations as you drive. This maintains the total quantity of smoke in the system at an average that does not change over time.* On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 7:43 PM, wrote: > > Last evening I experienced smoke in the cockpit of my Kitfox--912S. > > First, I want to thank Bob N for convincing me of the importance of > using Z16, incorporating an E-Bus circuit. Worked great and reduced the > load on my "little" motorcycle battery so that I maintained > 11.5 v for > the 15 min duration of my flt. > > It was twilight & I had Whelan strobe & nav lights on, near max elec > capacity for the 912 generator. I threw on the landing lt to see what > the added load would do to the system. (Probably not a smart move) > Immediately the system voltage, normally runs 13v, began dropping, so I > turned the landing lt off after a few seconds. > > I then began doing a series of steep climbs at slow airspeed. After > about five min I noticed a burning odder, thinking to myself "someone > must be burning trash and I'm in the trail of smoke." After about 30 > seconds I noticed smoke coming from under the instrument panel and a > much stronger burning odder. I dropped the nose of the airplane--no > more smoke. > > At that moment my GRT EIS warning lt flashed and I noticed the system > voltage below 11 v. I turned on the E Bus switch and off on the main. > Voltage came up--12 v I think. No odder or smoke or falling voltage. > > After a few minutes I decided to try the main switch again, pulling in > the battery relay and alternator. Voltage began to climb above 12 v to > about 12.5 v. I added strobe & nav lt again causing an immediate > reversal in voltage trend and warning lt came on again as it plunged > below 11 v. Again I went to E Bus an off main. I landed uneventfully. > > My guess is the relay over heated with the momentary excessive > electrical draw (does that happen?) causing the smoke. Any Ideas? I > assume I need to replace the regulator??? What would you recommend as a > replacement regulator/source. Anything else?????? > > Thanks > > Frank > N5929 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.