---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/20/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: "Shuntless" Ammeter in Diagram Z-16 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:21 AM - Re: Re: "Shuntless" Ammeter in Diagram Z-16 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:38 AM - Re: ELT antenna requirements (Palvary) 4. 07:35 AM - Re: Smoke (Glen Matejcek) 5. 09:54 AM - Re: ELT antenna requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:10 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/18/08 (John Markey) 7. 10:29 AM - alternator field current (Ron Shannon) 8. 10:47 AM - alternator field current (Ron Shannon) 9. 11:47 AM - Smoke (James H Nelson) 10. 12:01 PM - Re: alternator field current (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 01:04 PM - Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) (Vernon Little) 12. 03:33 PM - Re: Audio iso amp ordered, never received (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 04:34 PM - Re: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) (Tim Olson) 14. 05:42 PM - Tool to crimp a 90 degree Faston terminal? (Harold Lanfear) 15. 06:22 PM - Re: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:29 PM - Re: Tool to crimp a 90 degree Faston terminal? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 06:38 PM - Re: Tool to crimp a 90 degree Faston terminal? (Ernest Christley) 18. 07:07 PM - Re: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) (Ken) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: "Shuntless" Ammeter in Diagram Z-16 At 08:31 PM 3/19/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Never mind. I just reviewed Section 7 and found what I was looking >for. I'll try and rearrange the system to the 'classic battery ammeter >wiring' shown in Figure 7-11. Thanks anyway. > >Dan Ginty Dan, do you have a scanner? I'm not familiar with this ammeter and I'd like to have a copy of the installation instructions for it for my library. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: "Shuntless" Ammeter in Diagram Z-16 At 08:31 PM 3/19/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Never mind. I just reviewed Section 7 and found what I was looking >for. I'll try and rearrange the system to the 'classic battery ammeter >wiring' shown in Figure 7-11. Thanks anyway. > >Dan Ginty Dan, do you have a scanner? I'm not familiar with this ammeter and I'd like to have a copy of the installation instructions for it for my library. Scratch that request, I found it on the Internet! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:31 AM PST US From: "Palvary" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT antenna requirements I have an Ameriking AK450 ELT (121.5/243.0MHz) also in a plastic plane. The ELT antenna was broken when I got the plane so I calculated the optimal length and made a whip antenna out of welding rod. I simply soldered the rod to the center BNC conductor and insulated the section coming out of the BNC shell area. To fit the approx. 23" antenna in the space I had to bend it 90 degrees over a 2" radius, about 5" from the BNC. My biggest concern was lack of ground plane, but I was hoping the ELT itself acted as a ground plane. Even I know this is not optimal, but is it "workable"? --Jose ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:31 AM PST US From: Glen Matejcek Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Smoke Let us not forget that Lucas electric is why the Brits drink warm beer... do not archive! Glen Matejcek ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:39 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT antenna requirements At 09:27 AM 3/20/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >I have an Ameriking AK450 ELT (121.5/243.0MHz) also in a plastic plane. The >ELT antenna was broken when I got the plane so I calculated the optimal >length and made a whip antenna out of welding rod. I simply soldered the rod >to the center BNC conductor and insulated the section coming out of the BNC >shell area. To fit the approx. 23" antenna in the space I had to bend it 90 >degrees over a 2" radius, about 5" from the BNC. My biggest concern was lack >of ground plane, but I was hoping the ELT itself acted as a ground plane. >Even I know this is not optimal, but is it "workable"? Depends on what how we define "workable". The task of getting some manifestation of energy stored on the ELT's batteries to an overhead satellite is burdened with many losses and pitfalls in the conversion and conduction of energy. The batteries will deliver at 10-14 volts, the satellite will hear your ELT if the signal arrives at the 1 to 10 MICROvolt level. The weakest link in the energy conduction process is the antenna. It has no way of knowing where the satellite is so it spreads your signal all over the sky . . . and ground too. Everything you do that departs from the best-we-know-how-to-do adds another degree of uncertainty to the probability that the satellite gets a useful signal. On the other side of the coin, the probability that this piece of equipment will be a major contributor to your surviving the unplanned arrival with the earth is low. An article published in one of the journals a couple of years ago cited something much less than 10% of recovery situations where the ELT figured strongly in the success of the operation. The departures you've described from "ideal" will no doubt degrade the benchmark performance of the system. Will it make the difference between your pile of bent aluminum being found or not found? Probably not. Your failure to make good on a flight plan followed by a decision by someone to go looking for you is more likely to initiate any sort of rescue action. Then, if search aircraft also happen to carry receivers and direction finding equipment for ELT frequencies, then even your degraded performance MIGHT be of some assistance in finding you sooner . . . if ever. If you're putting much faith in the utility of this device to make the difference between surviving or not, then one of the more sophisticated devices is called for. One that transmits your last known GPS position. You can also consider an internal antenna like this: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/antennasystems.php At the very least, put a ground plane under the antenna you described above. I posted a recommended process on adding ground planes to plastic antennas to the List yesterday. Alternatively, making your ELT a hand-held device with a full length, telescoping antenna gets around a lot of installation hassles. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:23 AM PST US From: John Markey Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/18/08 Sam, I think I am beginning to understand how airplanes work. If I extrapolate [dangerous, I know, but humor me], then gasoline must be a natural storage device of wind energy, and the engines on our planes simply liberate the wind stored in the gasoline. Is this correct? If so, does it then follow that the reason some of us need bigger engines is because we naturally have more stored wind which the larger engine is more able to convert? Your views are appreciated in advance, John Markey Glasair II-FT _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:01 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Smoke *Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." -- Thomas Jefferson --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:35 AM PST US From: Ron Shannon Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator field current I'm building a dual alternator, single battery Z-12 and am trying to figure out the running current loads of the alternator field circuits. Of course, I see that a 5A fuse is recommended, however, I'd like to know what is the normal current on this circuit. Ron ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:51 AM PST US From: Ron Shannon Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator field current I'm building a dual alternator, single battery Z-12 and am trying to figure out the running current loads of the alternator field circuits. Of course, I see that a 5A fuse is recommended, however, what is the normal current on this circuit? Ron ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Smoke From: James H Nelson Ah yes, Lucas, the folks who invented darkness Jim ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator field current At 10:42 AM 3/20/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm building a dual alternator, single battery Z-12 and am trying to >figure out the running current loads of the alternator field circuits. >Of course, I see that a 5A fuse is recommended, however, what is the >normal current on this circuit? These are not normally considered to be part of the ship's running loads. It's assumed that an alternator will be required to carry its own excitation requirements. Therefore, an alternator rated for say 60A is really expected to supply 60 amps IN ADDITION to energy needed to excite the field. So use 3A as a max, 1A as average and then don't add it into your load analysis. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:52 PM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) A friend had a Plane Power alternator fail after his first flight. Apparently, he left the Master "on" (in ALT position) for 30-40 minutes while he was working on the plane, and after that he noticed that his ALT Field enable fuse was blown. It happened to a replacement fuse as well. I checked the wiring right to the alternator-- no fault with it unplugged. I can't measure any shorts to ground on the Alternator pins. My theory is the the internal voltage regulator overheated and failed short. My theory is that it would overheat because there was no airflow and was providing maximum field current for a long time. Has anyone else experienced this or have an alternate diagnosis? Thanks, Vern Little ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio iso amp ordered, never received At 07:19 PM 3/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > > >So: Can you let me know what's going on with my order? I wouldn't mind >the wait if I knew something was happening >at your end but that just hasn't been the case. Dave, the boards just arrived. I'm putting your board first class mail. I've also refunded your money for the board. You've suffered enough over this project! There are some changes to the board that don't affect the parts you'll need to install. There are some extra holes for speaker-out load resistors (not often needed) that you won't use. I'll try to get the data package updated to the new board and put the DIY project back up on the website! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:58 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) I'm not sure if the theory is good or bad, but I can say that I've left my master on for a very very long time before....many hours, as opposed to those 30-40 minutes, and I've never seen anything like that. I suppose the regulator or something could have gone bad, but I'd also check real well for any wiring errors. First off though, I'd call them and see what they say...they'll know better than most people, and I bet they take care of it right away. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying Vernon Little wrote: > > A friend had a Plane Power alternator fail after his first flight. > > Apparently, he left the Master "on" (in ALT position) for 30-40 minutes > while he was working on the plane, and after that he noticed that his ALT > Field enable fuse was blown. It happened to a replacement fuse as well. > > I checked the wiring right to the alternator-- no fault with it unplugged. > I can't measure any shorts to ground on the Alternator pins. > > My theory is the the internal voltage regulator overheated and failed short. > My theory is that it would overheat because there was no airflow and was > providing maximum field current for a long time. > > Has anyone else experienced this or have an alternate diagnosis? > > Thanks, Vern Little > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:04 PM PST US From: "Harold Lanfear" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tool to crimp a 90 degree Faston terminal? I have a need to use a few 90 degree 1/4" Faston Terminal ( I believe they are also called "Flags") but can't figure out what tool is used to crimp the wires. It doesn't appear there is any way to use the standard dies for other insulated crimp terminals. Anybody know what works? Thanks much, Harold Lanfear ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) At 01:00 PM 3/20/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > >A friend had a Plane Power alternator fail after his first flight. > >Apparently, he left the Master "on" (in ALT position) for 30-40 minutes >while he was working on the plane, and after that he noticed that his ALT >Field enable fuse was blown. It happened to a replacement fuse as well. > >I checked the wiring right to the alternator-- no fault with it unplugged. >I can't measure any shorts to ground on the Alternator pins. > >My theory is the the internal voltage regulator overheated and failed short. >My theory is that it would overheat because there was no airflow and was >providing maximum field current for a long time. > >Has anyone else experienced this or have an alternate diagnosis? It's a plausible theory. The only schematics for regulators I've been able to study take a sample of the AC from the alternator's stator windings and won't turn the field on unless there is a detected motion of the rotor. But I don't know that all regulators do that . . . in particular, those used in Plane Power's products. A phone call to them should reinforce or wash out your hypothesis. They've been courteous and quite forthcoming with useful information when I've had occasion to communicate with them. If the regulator doesn't shut down during engine-off ops, then it full-fields the alternator. I wouldn't expect this to overheat the regulator . . . but it might have cooked insulation in the field windings and cause a short there. This is one of several reasons why the Z-figures are configured to allow pilot/mechanic control of field excitation both in flight and on the ground. Separate but interlocked Battery and Alternator switches configured to emulate the infamous split-rocker switch. Give PlanePower a call and let us know what they have to say. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tool to crimp a 90 degree Faston terminal? At 08:37 PM 3/20/2008 -0400, you wrote: >I have a need to use a few 90 degree 1/4" Faston Terminal ( I believe >they are also called "Flags") but can't figure out what tool is used to >crimp the wires. It doesn't appear there is any way to use the standard >dies for other insulated crimp terminals. Anybody know what works? Push comes to shove, use the hardware store crimp tool for insulated terminals. Put the super mash on the wire grip, be more gentle on the insulation grip. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/Two_Shot_Crimp_Tool.jpg Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:43 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tool to crimp a 90 degree Faston terminal? Harold Lanfear wrote: > I have a need to use a few 90 degree 1/4" Faston Terminal ( I believe they are also called "Flags") but can't figure out what tool is used to crimp the wires. It doesn't appear there is any way to use the standard dies for other insulated crimp terminals. Anybody know what works? > > Thanks much, > Harold Lanfear > I used a standard B crimper. -- http://www.ronpaultimeline.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:38 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Plane Power Alternator Failure (brand new) Would not surprise me Vern. My wee ND IR alternator draws a couple of amps and heats up quite noticeably with the engine off and the IGN terminal (and B+ lead) connected to the battery. Fortunately the OV relay lets me disconnect it by opening the alternator control switch. Ken Vernon Little wrote: > > A friend had a Plane Power alternator fail after his first flight. > > Apparently, he left the Master "on" (in ALT position) for 30-40 minutes > while he was working on the plane, and after that he noticed that his ALT > Field enable fuse was blown. It happened to a replacement fuse as well. > > I checked the wiring right to the alternator-- no fault with it unplugged. > I can't measure any shorts to ground on the Alternator pins. > > My theory is the the internal voltage regulator overheated and failed short. > My theory is that it would overheat because there was no airflow and was > providing maximum field current for a long time. > > Has anyone else experienced this or have an alternate diagnosis? > > Thanks, Vern Little > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.