---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/27/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - Using NC Switches () 2. 04:37 AM - Re: Aux power and the battery (Andrew Butler) 3. 09:13 AM - Re: METCAL tip cartridges (SteinAir, Inc.) 4. 10:20 AM - Re: Aux power and the battery (Ron Shannon) 5. 11:03 AM - Re: METCAL soldering irons (Carlos Trigo) 6. 11:55 AM - Re: METCAL soldering irons (Bob White) 7. 06:02 PM - Any Ray Allen LED Dimming Circuit ideas? (Vince-Himsl) 8. 06:28 PM - Alternator Breaker Pop (DaveG601XL) 9. 06:35 PM - Re: Using NC Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:11 PM - Just for grins (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:40 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Using NC Switches 3/27/2008 Hello Again Tom, I am disappointed that nobody on the aeroelectric list responded to your request that I forwarded to them for help on using NC switches . (See copy below) Let me take a stab at your request and if I provide bum information maybe one of the experts on the list (even Bob Nuckolls) may step in and provide correct, or better, information. There are small electrical relays, commonly called "ice cube relays" because of their size, that can be used for the purpose that you want -- providing an electrical signal when all you have available for control is a NC (normally closed) switch in your aircraft's control grip. Here is one such relay available from B&C -- I am sure that there are many others: http://www.bandc.biz/S704-1_tips.html It has a 12 volt activated coil and two contacts activated by the slug that is moved when electricity is applied to the relay coil. One of the contacts is labeled NC (normally closed) and the other is labeled NO (normally open). Status A) If there is no electricity flowing through the relay coil the relay NC contact is connected to the relay common contact and the relay NO contact is not connected to the relay common contact. Status B) When there is electricty flowing through the relay coil the relay NC contact is disconnected from the relay common contact and the relay NO contact is connected to the relay common contact. You can wire one side of the NC switch in your control grip with a wire leading to one of the relay coil contacts. Then you can wire the other relay coil contact on to aircraft ground. Then you can wire the other side of the NC switch in the control grip to a live electrical source in the aircraft. You will have created a continuous electric flow through the coil and the relay and its contacts will be in status B above. Now you determine whatever electrical signal is to be sent to the transponder in order to have it ident and wire a continuous source of that signal to the transponder through the relay common and the relay NC contacts. Because you are in status B there is no connection between the relay common connection and the relay NC contact and the transponder will not ident. When you depress the button for the NC switch in your control grip the relay will go into status A and an ident signal will be sent to the transponder as long you keep the button for the NC switch on the control grip depressed. Realize that there are some downsides to this arrangement: 1) There will be a continuous drain on your electrical system to keep the relay coil activated at all times except for the brief moments when you depress the NC switch button on the control grip. 2) If you have a wiring disconnect beween the NC switch on the control grip and the relay the transponder will receive a continuous signal to ident. There are probably more elegant electrical solutions to solving this problem and one could eliminate the two downsides listed above by using two relays to accomplish the ident (or other actions desired), but that is left as an exercise for the reader. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: I realize that HOTAS (Hands On Trottle And Stick) is appealing to some homebuilders as a high tech form of snobbery, but it ain't my cup of tea. I fly in a pretty intense radar coverage environment (the Washington DC ADIZ) and I bet that in the past several years that it has been in effect that I haven't been asked to ident more than 4 or 5 times. Not a big deal to just reach over and push the button on my transponder. ----------------------------------------- 3/12/2008 Hello Tom, You wrote: 1) "For clarification, the NC switch means that I press the button to actually cut the power. Why would this be used on an old military helicopter stick? What is the reason for cutting the power on a switch?" We used to say that having helicopter time in your pilot's logbook was like having an STD entry (it was called venereal disease back then) in your health record. So I will reluctantly admit that I did fly a helicopter (CH-46) for a year in Viet Nam. The cyclic grip had a button on it that when pressed would disconnect the electronic flight stability / attitude positioning system so that one could manually reposition the stick and the helicopter's attitude then releasing the button would reengage the electronic attitude positioning system. Maybe you have a control stick grip that does something similar. 2) "Again, is there any way I can wire it to work with my remote ident operation?" I am not the right guy to answer that question, but I am sure that by using two of the small "ice cube" type relays that ident operation could be accomplished. It might be a pretty awkward way of doing it though from an electrical viewpoint. I'll forward your question to the Matronic's aeroelectric-list and maybe one of the electrical experts there (even the great guru Bob Nuckolls) would take a shot at it. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Gibbons" Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:25 AM Subject: Electrical question On my military surplus control stick I have 4 push buttons, 2 wired normally opened (NO) and 2 wired normally closed (NC). I really do not have access to these switches so I have to make due but can I use the NC switches somehow? I have plans for comm flip/flop, nav flip/flop, and Ident for my transponder. I actually have a "hattie" switch in the middle for trim which is not hooked up. The stick is installed with the ptt and intercom trigger switches working good. All kinds of switches on this guy. Was not going to use it but hey, it felt so comfortable, why not. For clarification, the NC switch means that I press the button to actually cut the power. Why would this be used on an old military helicopter stick? What is the reason for cutting the power on a switch? Again, is there any way I can wire it to work with my remote ident operation? Tom ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:37 AM PST US From: "Andrew Butler" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aux power and the battery Thanks very much Bob. Here is the charger I bought: http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=SPEC&ModuleNo=12204&doy=27m3 #spec How does it look? Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aux power and the battery Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:19:39 -0500 At 04:38 PM 3/26/2008 +0000, you wrote: > All, I have two general queries that I would like some help on. > > 1. I have purchased an AC to 12V 5A DC power supply. I would like to use this as an ad-hoc > power for install and testing of components through the build. I was thinking of attaching a > standard male cigaratte lighter plug to the leads and then use a female recepticle to receive > and power the bus. What issues do I need to consider? What will happen if I do this while the > battery (an Odyssey PC680) is left attached to the system? 12 volts is a bit too low to be run in parallel with a battery. Generally speaking, 12v power supplies are crafted for energizing electronics. Since 12v batteries in vehicles need 13.8 minimum (14.2 better) to co-exist with a power source, the supply you have could be used for limited testing as a stand-alone source of power. > 2. I have purchased a two stage charger. Is it kohser to charge the battery through the same > female cigaratte power port? If it's an automotive "smart charger", what is it's rated capacity for charging? The BEST way to power your airplane from the AC mains is to acquire some form of smart charger. Exemplar devices can be viewed in this .pdf catalog from Schumacher. http://www.schumacherproducts.com/assets/pdf/sec_catalog.pdf I have a couple of Schumacher products, one of which is good for 25A in the recharge mode. I'll need to do some tests with it but my thinking is that devices like these could be permanently connected across your ship's battery and plugged into the wall. Their microprocessor smarts should react to keep the battery charged irrespective of how much "stuff" you test. This should work even large loads and relatively small smart chargers. Of course the battery will have to make up the difference between what say a 2A charger will put out and a 10A test load. But as soon as you shut things off, the battery charger can be trusted to do its thing and bring the battery back up to 100%. If you'd like to have a power supply that emulates "real" vehicular power, watch for 13.8 volt devices sold to power mobile electronics in the house. I used to sell the Samlex 1223 and a kit to make it emulate an alternator. You could plug it into wall, hook it to the alternator's b-lead and have it respond to the cockpit alternator control switch. Sitting in the left seat, everything on the panel worked as if you had an engine running with a 23A alternator on it. See: http://tinyurl.com/2zdt3u I've always recommended that builders not buy a new battery until the airplane was ready to fly. During construction phases, a lawn tractor battery and a plug-in-the-wall power supply would let you get everything running in the airplane without abusing a brand new flight-battery. A smart charger connected across the battery is a reasonable substitute for a high-quality power supply. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- =========== =========== =========== =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:55 AM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: METCAL tip cartridges Don't have much to add over what Bob said, except I can echo his comments. We only use Metcal here as well...tried just about every type out there and Metcal seems to have the best reliability vs functionality. I have over a dozen of them, and I would agree with him on tips. I too buy them off Ebay once and awhile because sometimes they are a deal! Cheers, Stein >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert >L. Nuckolls, III >Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:51 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: METCAL tip cartridges > > > > >At 07:19 PM 3/26/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >>I am looking for a recommendation of a couple of Metcal STTC tip >>cartridges for the MX-RM3E wand. The power supply is a PS2E-01. For >>63/37 solder, is the 600 degree tip appropriate? For soldering >fat wires, >>it seems that the STTC-045 or -145 tip would be appropriate. Not sure >>about a tip for smaller, general propose soldering. Any advice from well >>acquainted users would be welcome. >> >> > > We've used only Metcal soldering irons in the shop now for > 10 years. I have three in various locations in my facilities > and a couple more I loan out to folks who put stuff together for > me. To date, I've found no finer tool (that I can afford) for > the task. > > The Metcal catalog for STTC series tips can be downloaded > at: > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Tools/Metcal/Metcal_Tips.pdf > > The heaviest tip for fat-wire work is the #65. I've installed > terminals on 4AWG wire with this critter. It takes awhile but > it will do it. The commonly found tips in the wild are 000 hundred > (600F) or 100 series (700F). For 63/37 solder, it doesn't matter > much for most work. I'm interested in getting some really fine > 500 series tips for working some really tiny stuff. > > For general soldering tasks, a #25, 04 or 36 will serve you well. > I have a few tips like the #45 for soldering down those parts > surface mounted parts fitted with copper "cat-hair" for leads. > > > I presume you're watching the offerings on ebay. Most of > my tips came in assortments of used where some were pretty > rough but I got them cheap and enough good tips in the lot > to make it a good value. But there's some really reasonable > offerings for new, single tips. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:05 AM PST US From: "Ron Shannon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aux power and the battery FWIW, I use a variable voltage (1-14 VDC) power supply <* http://tinyurl.com/ypdhy6/>* to test run the electrical equipment. It can be run at 13.8VDC for routine operational tests, or the voltage can be progressively lowered to test low voltage monitors, etc. Ron ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:21 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: METCAL soldering irons What will happen if I buy an American (110V-60Hz) soldering iron and connect it directly (without a transformer) to an European (220V-50Hz) power socket? Do I get some smoke? Carlos ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:04 AM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: METCAL soldering irons On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:53:19 -0000 "Carlos Trigo" wrote: > > What will happen if I buy an American (110V-60Hz) soldering iron and connect > it directly (without a transformer) to an European (220V-50Hz) power socket? > Do I get some smoke? > > Carlos > Yes! Later if not sooner. I would bet on sooner. Bob W. -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:34 PM PST US From: "Vince-Himsl" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any Ray Allen LED Dimming Circuit ideas? Hello, Panel is all wired up, just some fine tuning. One item is that the Ray Allen LED trim indicators are too bright when switched to =BD brightness. I have scanned the net for a way to convert them to a linear dimming range but have found nothing. I am at point of installing a switch to turn them off except when needed. I am hoping someone has a more elegant (read cheap) solution. They=92re already mounted in the panel so chucking them is not an option. Thanks! Vince H. Idaho ' RV-8 VSB (Very Slow Built) Finish ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:36 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Breaker Pop From: "DaveG601XL" I am performing my first engine runs with a Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith 601XL. This is a PM alternator and my wiring is based on the Z16 architecture using the S704-1 alternator control and crowbar OV protection. So far everything is working just fine with one exception. Of the 10 or so engine starts I have made, twice I found the 5A alternator breaker popped. This is the breaker between the main bus and the master switch. On both occasions, the engine was at idle and I shut it down then re-started it after a few moments. It was after the start that I noticed the popped breaker. I don't know if the breaker popped on shutdown or during the re-start. In either case I was able to reset the breaker and all appeared to be OK. Anybody have any ideas on what is going on here? All the volt and amp numbers I have seen are "in the green." Do shutdown or start-ups cause nuisance pops? Thanks, DaveG -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, all major assemblies complete. Have run the engine and am starting final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173164#173164 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using NC Switches >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Gibbons" >To: "Pulsar List" >Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:25 AM >Subject: Electrical question > > >On my military surplus control stick I have 4 push buttons, 2 wired normally >opened (NO) and 2 wired normally closed (NC). I really do not have access >to these switches so I have to make due but can I use the NC switches >somehow? >I have plans for comm flip/flop, nav flip/flop, and Ident for my >transponder. I actually have a "hattie" switch in the middle for trim which >is not hooked up. The stick is installed with the ptt and intercom trigger >switches working good. All kinds of switches on this guy. Was not going to >use it but hey, it felt so comfortable, why not. >For clarification, the NC switch means that I press the button to actually >cut the power. Why would this be used on an old military helicopter stick? >What is the reason for cutting the power on a switch? Again, is there any >way I can wire it to work with my remote ident operation? > >Tom Sorry I didn't get to this. Pretty busy around here lately . . . and I've got a new modus-operandi for dealing with the 'fun' stuff. I completely clear my in-box every couple of days so that I don't get messages stacked up for weeks that have little if any prospect of getting my attention. So posting again is not a bad idea. Exactly what do you wish to do with the NC buttons. You mentioned 4 switches total, two of which are normally closed an you inferred that you might like to use them in circuits that need NO operation. The elegant solution is dependent upon what functionality you wish the switch to perform. Relays can be used but solid state is better. Let's "talk" about it an see what works best. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Just for grins Last week when I put the UltraLast cells on the hand-dandy- battery-runner-downer I had a single loose Maxell AA cell laying on the bench. I threw it on the tester at 1/6th the benchmark loads I've used to compare various brands of batteries. My benchmark testing is done at 300 mA, this cell was loaded to 50 mA. The differences in apparent capacity are pretty profound. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/300_vs_50mA_discharge_of_AA_cell.jpg A reduction of load to 50 mA allowed me to get twice the stored energy from the cells chemistry. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.