Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:20 AM - 24-Pole Relay Needed ()
2. 01:42 PM - Fat Wires & Brass vs. Copper (George Jenson)
3. 02:38 PM - Re: Fat Wires & Brass vs. Copper (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 02:40 PM - PM3000 Wiring (George Jenson)
5. 03:26 PM - Re: PM3000 Wiring (Vernon Little)
6. 03:38 PM - Re: PM3000 Wiring (Bill Denton)
7. 05:45 PM - Re: PM3000 Wiring (Sam Marlow)
8. 06:12 PM - wiring of 477 rotax (Sam Brunson)
9. 07:15 PM - Re: wiring of 477 rotax (Dale Ensing)
10. 09:11 PM - Re: wiring of 477 rotax (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 24-Pole Relay Needed |
4/7/2008
Hello Don, You can find them here:
http://www.sandia.aero/?q=system/files/MARC70Relays11-18-04.pdf
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
--------------------------------------------------
Time: 08:11:43 AM PST US
From: "Don Curry" <currydon@bellsouth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 24-Pole Relay Needed
I need a couple of 24-pole relays for an avionics project. Would anyone
have a spare MD41-248 or MD41-24P they'd be willing to sell?
Thanks,
Don
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fat Wires & Brass vs. Copper |
Bob & Listers,
I'm finishing up the contactor mounting/wiring on my RV-7 firewall and
about to make and mount the ground busses and ground pass-through.
I'm planning on 2AWG welding cable for both battery cables, the starter
cable, and the engine to firewall ground bus. Is this OK or should I use a
braided strap for the engine to firewall ground?
This leaves the Alternator B-Lead. 2AWG is overkill but convenient to buy
and use. However, would I be better off downsizing it to a smaller gauge
welding cable? I'm planning on a 60amp Plane Power alternator.
I can get brass plate and bar easily and cheaply. Is it practically /
functionally equivalent to copper for the main contactor to starter
contactor bar? Same for the bar to connect the current limiter? Van's specs
out .125 x .5 for the first and there is no spec for the second but I plan
on .063 x .5 for it. Will those work in brass?
I've already sourced two copper bars that are a bit thinner (.050) that are
perfect size for each side of the firewall for the ground busses. I'm
planning on soldering brass tabs onto them and mounting them with brass
bolts through them for the fat wires? Is this OK?
I've summarized these 5 questions below, and I appreciate the help. Other
questions following in separate threads.
George Jenson
Tucson, AZ
RV-7
Summary - 5 questions:
1. 2AWG welding cable OK for engine to firewall ground in lieu of braid?
2. 2AWG welding cable OK for 60amp PP alternator b-lead or should I downsize?
3. .125 x .5 brass bar OK for contactor to contactor run (Van's specs same
size but Copper)?
4. .063 x .5 brass bar OK for contactor to current limiter (no starter
current)?
5. .050 x .75 x 5 copper bars/straps on either side of firewall, each
soldered with brass tabs, with 3/16 brass bolts as ground setup OK?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fat Wires & Brass vs. Copper |
At 01:36 PM 4/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
><george@georgejenson.com>
>
>
>Bob & Listers,
>
>I'm finishing up the contactor mounting/wiring on my RV-7 firewall and
>about to make and mount the ground busses and ground pass-through.
>
>I'm planning on 2AWG welding cable for both battery cables, the starter
>cable, and the engine to firewall ground bus. Is this OK or should I use a
>braided strap for the engine to firewall ground?
The welding cable is sufficiently fine/flexible to
serve well as a crankcase ground jumper.
>This leaves the Alternator B-Lead. 2AWG is overkill but convenient to buy
>and use. However, would I be better off downsizing it to a smaller gauge
>welding cable? I'm planning on a 60amp Plane Power alternator.
In an RV . . . 4AWG is fine for all fat wires.
2AWG is indicated on plastic canard pushers and
some rear-battery installations in metal airplanes.
>I can get brass plate and bar easily and cheaply. Is it practically /
>functionally equivalent to copper for the main contactor to starter
>contactor bar? Same for the bar to connect the current limiter? Van's
>specs out .125 x .5 for the first and there is no spec for the second but
>I plan on .063 x .5 for it. Will those work in brass?
.063 is plenty good and brass is easier to
work with than copper which is exceedingly
soft and hard to drill.
>I've already sourced two copper bars that are a bit thinner (.050) that
>are perfect size for each side of the firewall for the ground busses. I'm
>planning on soldering brass tabs onto them and mounting them with brass
>bolts through them for the fat wires? Is this OK?
Sure . . . but go with brass. Check out local
hardware/hobby stores for K&S Engineering
displays like:
http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/metal_center.asp?Title=Hobby_Merchandisers
They will stock some .032 brass sheet that is
fine for crafting the short jumper straps between
contactors, limiter mounts, etc. Make the 5/8" wide
or so and thinner. Easier to work with . . .
>I've summarized these 5 questions below, and I appreciate the help. Other
>questions following in separate threads.
>
>George Jenson
>Tucson, AZ
>RV-7
>
>Summary - 5 questions:
>1. 2AWG welding cable OK for engine to firewall ground in lieu of braid?
>2. 2AWG welding cable OK for 60amp PP alternator b-lead or should I downsize?
Go 4AWG throughout . . .
>3. .125 x .5 brass bar OK for contactor to contactor run (Van's specs same
>size but Copper)?
>4. .063 x .5 brass bar OK for contactor to current limiter (no starter
>current)?
>5. .050 x .75 x 5 copper bars/straps on either side of firewall, each
>soldered with brass tabs, with 3/16 brass bolts as ground setup OK?
Go .032 brass for all and at LEAST 5/16 or better
yet 3/8" brass bolts for fat-wire terminals. Torque
to 80+ percent of maximum for the materials and thread
sizes. Check AC43.13 for values.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Bob & Listers,
I have a used PM3000 stereo intercom for my RV-7. I am intending to wire
two stereo signals, a Garmin 496 and a 1/8" panel jack, through a 4PDT
switch into the intercom's entertainment input. This input mutes when there
is other activity and allows for pilot isolation. That is the easy part.
The more complicated part is how to handle all the mono signals:
1. Comm1 - Panel mounted, probably a Garmin 480 or a 430w
2. Comm2 - Icom A6 handheld in a panel dock
(I have a 4PDT switch for these two to switch the intercom's transmit output)
3. Nav1 - Garmin 480 or 430w
4. EIS - GRT EIS has audio, and it is the likely candidate.
5. EFIS (?) - Some EFIS's output audio so this is a possibility
6. Garmin 496 Voice Output (?) - Not sure if I need to use this if the
stereo output is attached, though I'd rather have warnings come through an
unmutable (immutable?) input and I'd like to still get 496 audio warnings
if I happen to be listening to an mp3 player.
So that's 4 for sure, 5 likely, and perhaps 6, mono signals for the PM3000,
which has one mono input. Further, the mono input of the PM3000 is supposed
to come after the Aux headset jack. That jack is supposed to be installed
between the Comm radio and the intercom, and from a SHTF perspective, that
makes great sense.
Note that I don't need nor want any of those inputs switched nor do any
need added volume controls. Simple is as simple does, and I'm a simple
(minded) guy.
My current plan is build an audio isolation amp per Bob's plans and route
the output of that into the Aux jack and then into the PM3000.
1. Is this OK or should I put the isolation amp between the Aux jack and
the PM3000 so that the primary comm goes to the Aux jack first, then to the
isolation amp? If the SHTF, I would think that having the Aux jack
immediately after Comm1 might be more betterer, though I would lose all the
other audio. If the audio iso amp is so robust as to be a likely survivor
of most failure modes, then perhaps having the Aux jack on the output side
of it but before the intercom is best. What are your thoughts?
2. If I build the isolation amp per the mono schematics (1.8 an 1.8.1)
there appear to be sufficient inputs and others can even be added (with a
little breading of Bob's circuit board). However they both show only one
input going to pin 3 of U115 and the rest going to pin 2. Does it matter or
should the number of inputs be balanced between those two pins? Or, should
they all go to pin 2 as none of the inputs are a single channel of a stereo
signal? I confess my understanding of how that circuit actually works is
minimal.
3. Is there a chance that this can all be done without the iso amp? I sorta
figured that after about 2 mono signals you pretty well need the iso amp,
but I wanted to confirm that.
Finally Bob, assuming I do need an iso amp, I'd like to order one of your
remaining circuit boards for it. Please advise how I should do so. I was a
teenage ham radio operator and worked in an two-way radio factory during my
youth so I'm very comfortable soldering and building projects.
Thanks in advance,
George Jenson
Tucson, AZ
RV-7 in progress
Message 5
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George:
I think I can help.
Today, I signed off for proto release on a new aviation audio product called
the AMX-2A Audio Mixer Amplifier.
It takes 10 monophonic audio sources, isolates and amplifies them into one
output. Sort of like Bob's isolation amplifier, but more inputs, mono only
and much smaller package.
Four of the audio inputs have volume controls to allow the adjustment of
audio levels from instruments that have no controls (e.g. Dynon EFIS). The
other six inputs are fixed level, assuming that you have source control of
the audio level from them (e.g. Comms, Traffic Monitors). All inputs are
10K ohm impedance.
The output can be connected into the aux audio input on an intercom. If
your intercom does not support aux inputs (Such as Sigtronics types), the
output can be wired directly into the headphone bus. Both mono and stereo
headphone buses are supported.
All of this is contained in a small package, with a 25-pin D-sub connector
(10 inputs, 2 outputs, power and 12 grounds). In fact, it's so small that
the entire unit mounts in a D-sub backshell.
I don't want to compete with Bob's isolation amplifier (after all it's his
site), but I think he offers it more as a public service than a profit
center. In that spirit, If Bob objects, I will back off.
Documentation is pending, but I can send a pinout pretty quickly.
Thanks, Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Jenson
Sent: April 7, 2008 2:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM3000 Wiring
--> <george@georgejenson.com>
Bob & Listers,
I have a used PM3000 stereo intercom for my RV-7. I am intending to wire
two stereo signals, a Garmin 496 and a 1/8" panel jack, through a 4PDT
switch into the intercom's entertainment input. This input mutes when there
is other activity and allows for pilot isolation. That is the easy part.
The more complicated part is how to handle all the mono signals: 1. Comm1 -
Panel mounted, probably a Garmin 480 or a 430w 2. Comm2 - Icom A6 handheld
in a panel dock (I have a 4PDT switch for these two to switch the intercom's
transmit output) 3. Nav1 - Garmin 480 or 430w 4. EIS - GRT EIS has audio,
and it is the likely candidate. 5. EFIS (?) - Some EFIS's output audio so
this is a possibility 6. Garmin 496 Voice Output (?) - Not sure if I need to
use this if the
stereo output is attached, though I'd rather have warnings come through an
unmutable (immutable?) input and I'd like to still get 496 audio warnings
if I happen to be listening to an mp3 player.
So that's 4 for sure, 5 likely, and perhaps 6, mono signals for the PM3000,
which has one mono input. Further, the mono input of the PM3000 is supposed
to come after the Aux headset jack. That jack is supposed to be installed
between the Comm radio and the intercom, and from a SHTF perspective, that
makes great sense.
Note that I don't need nor want any of those inputs switched nor do any
need added volume controls. Simple is as simple does, and I'm a simple
(minded) guy.
My current plan is build an audio isolation amp per Bob's plans and route
the output of that into the Aux jack and then into the PM3000.
1. Is this OK or should I put the isolation amp between the Aux jack and
the PM3000 so that the primary comm goes to the Aux jack first, then to the
isolation amp? If the SHTF, I would think that having the Aux jack
immediately after Comm1 might be more betterer, though I would lose all the
other audio. If the audio iso amp is so robust as to be a likely survivor
of most failure modes, then perhaps having the Aux jack on the output side
of it but before the intercom is best. What are your thoughts?
2. If I build the isolation amp per the mono schematics (1.8 an 1.8.1)
there appear to be sufficient inputs and others can even be added (with a
little breading of Bob's circuit board). However they both show only one
input going to pin 3 of U115 and the rest going to pin 2. Does it matter or
should the number of inputs be balanced between those two pins? Or, should
they all go to pin 2 as none of the inputs are a single channel of a stereo
signal? I confess my understanding of how that circuit actually works is
minimal.
3. Is there a chance that this can all be done without the iso amp? I sorta
figured that after about 2 mono signals you pretty well need the iso amp,
but I wanted to confirm that.
Finally Bob, assuming I do need an iso amp, I'd like to order one of your
remaining circuit boards for it. Please advise how I should do so. I was a
teenage ham radio operator and worked in an two-way radio factory during my
youth so I'm very comfortable soldering and building projects.
Thanks in advance,
George Jenson
Tucson, AZ
RV-7 in progress
Message 6
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One thing to consider...
Even though they haven't made much noise about it, about a year ago PS
Engineering added two mono auxiliary inputs to the PM3000. I don't know how
old your unit is, but you might check with PS to see if it has the auxiliary
inputs...
Bill Denton
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Jenson
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 4:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM3000 Wiring
<george@georgejenson.com>
Bob & Listers,
I have a used PM3000 stereo intercom for my RV-7. I am intending to wire
two stereo signals, a Garmin 496 and a 1/8" panel jack, through a 4PDT
switch into the intercom's entertainment input. This input mutes when there
is other activity and allows for pilot isolation. That is the easy part.
The more complicated part is how to handle all the mono signals:
1. Comm1 - Panel mounted, probably a Garmin 480 or a 430w
2. Comm2 - Icom A6 handheld in a panel dock
(I have a 4PDT switch for these two to switch the intercom's transmit
output)
3. Nav1 - Garmin 480 or 430w
4. EIS - GRT EIS has audio, and it is the likely candidate.
5. EFIS (?) - Some EFIS's output audio so this is a possibility
6. Garmin 496 Voice Output (?) - Not sure if I need to use this if the
stereo output is attached, though I'd rather have warnings come through an
unmutable (immutable?) input and I'd like to still get 496 audio warnings
if I happen to be listening to an mp3 player.
So that's 4 for sure, 5 likely, and perhaps 6, mono signals for the PM3000,
which has one mono input. Further, the mono input of the PM3000 is supposed
to come after the Aux headset jack. That jack is supposed to be installed
between the Comm radio and the intercom, and from a SHTF perspective, that
makes great sense.
Note that I don't need nor want any of those inputs switched nor do any
need added volume controls. Simple is as simple does, and I'm a simple
(minded) guy.
My current plan is build an audio isolation amp per Bob's plans and route
the output of that into the Aux jack and then into the PM3000.
1. Is this OK or should I put the isolation amp between the Aux jack and
the PM3000 so that the primary comm goes to the Aux jack first, then to the
isolation amp? If the SHTF, I would think that having the Aux jack
immediately after Comm1 might be more betterer, though I would lose all the
other audio. If the audio iso amp is so robust as to be a likely survivor
of most failure modes, then perhaps having the Aux jack on the output side
of it but before the intercom is best. What are your thoughts?
2. If I build the isolation amp per the mono schematics (1.8 an 1.8.1)
there appear to be sufficient inputs and others can even be added (with a
little breading of Bob's circuit board). However they both show only one
input going to pin 3 of U115 and the rest going to pin 2. Does it matter or
should the number of inputs be balanced between those two pins? Or, should
they all go to pin 2 as none of the inputs are a single channel of a stereo
signal? I confess my understanding of how that circuit actually works is
minimal.
3. Is there a chance that this can all be done without the iso amp? I sorta
figured that after about 2 mono signals you pretty well need the iso amp,
but I wanted to confirm that.
Finally Bob, assuming I do need an iso amp, I'd like to order one of your
remaining circuit boards for it. Please advise how I should do so. I was a
teenage ham radio operator and worked in an two-way radio factory during my
youth so I'm very comfortable soldering and building projects.
Thanks in advance,
George Jenson
Tucson, AZ
RV-7 in progress
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: PM3000 Wiring |
Put me on your list for more info, etc.
Sam Marlow
Vernon Little wrote:
>
> George:
>
> I think I can help.
>
> Today, I signed off for proto release on a new aviation audio product called
> the AMX-2A Audio Mixer Amplifier.
> It takes 10 monophonic audio sources, isolates and amplifies them into one
> output. Sort of like Bob's isolation amplifier, but more inputs, mono only
> and much smaller package.
>
> Four of the audio inputs have volume controls to allow the adjustment of
> audio levels from instruments that have no controls (e.g. Dynon EFIS). The
> other six inputs are fixed level, assuming that you have source control of
> the audio level from them (e.g. Comms, Traffic Monitors). All inputs are
> 10K ohm impedance.
>
> The output can be connected into the aux audio input on an intercom. If
> your intercom does not support aux inputs (Such as Sigtronics types), the
> output can be wired directly into the headphone bus. Both mono and stereo
> headphone buses are supported.
>
> All of this is contained in a small package, with a 25-pin D-sub connector
> (10 inputs, 2 outputs, power and 12 grounds). In fact, it's so small that
> the entire unit mounts in a D-sub backshell.
>
> I don't want to compete with Bob's isolation amplifier (after all it's his
> site), but I think he offers it more as a public service than a profit
> center. In that spirit, If Bob objects, I will back off.
>
> Documentation is pending, but I can send a pinout pretty quickly.
>
> Thanks, Vern
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
> Jenson
> Sent: April 7, 2008 2:37 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM3000 Wiring
>
>
> --> <george@georgejenson.com>
>
> Bob & Listers,
>
> I have a used PM3000 stereo intercom for my RV-7. I am intending to wire
> two stereo signals, a Garmin 496 and a 1/8" panel jack, through a 4PDT
> switch into the intercom's entertainment input. This input mutes when there
> is other activity and allows for pilot isolation. That is the easy part.
>
> The more complicated part is how to handle all the mono signals: 1. Comm1 -
> Panel mounted, probably a Garmin 480 or a 430w 2. Comm2 - Icom A6 handheld
> in a panel dock (I have a 4PDT switch for these two to switch the intercom's
> transmit output) 3. Nav1 - Garmin 480 or 430w 4. EIS - GRT EIS has audio,
> and it is the likely candidate. 5. EFIS (?) - Some EFIS's output audio so
> this is a possibility 6. Garmin 496 Voice Output (?) - Not sure if I need to
> use this if the
> stereo output is attached, though I'd rather have warnings come through an
> unmutable (immutable?) input and I'd like to still get 496 audio warnings
> if I happen to be listening to an mp3 player.
>
> So that's 4 for sure, 5 likely, and perhaps 6, mono signals for the PM3000,
> which has one mono input. Further, the mono input of the PM3000 is supposed
> to come after the Aux headset jack. That jack is supposed to be installed
> between the Comm radio and the intercom, and from a SHTF perspective, that
> makes great sense.
>
> Note that I don't need nor want any of those inputs switched nor do any
> need added volume controls. Simple is as simple does, and I'm a simple
> (minded) guy.
>
> My current plan is build an audio isolation amp per Bob's plans and route
> the output of that into the Aux jack and then into the PM3000.
>
> 1. Is this OK or should I put the isolation amp between the Aux jack and
> the PM3000 so that the primary comm goes to the Aux jack first, then to the
> isolation amp? If the SHTF, I would think that having the Aux jack
> immediately after Comm1 might be more betterer, though I would lose all the
> other audio. If the audio iso amp is so robust as to be a likely survivor
> of most failure modes, then perhaps having the Aux jack on the output side
> of it but before the intercom is best. What are your thoughts?
>
> 2. If I build the isolation amp per the mono schematics (1.8 an 1.8.1)
> there appear to be sufficient inputs and others can even be added (with a
> little breading of Bob's circuit board). However they both show only one
> input going to pin 3 of U115 and the rest going to pin 2. Does it matter or
> should the number of inputs be balanced between those two pins? Or, should
> they all go to pin 2 as none of the inputs are a single channel of a stereo
> signal? I confess my understanding of how that circuit actually works is
> minimal.
>
> 3. Is there a chance that this can all be done without the iso amp? I sorta
> figured that after about 2 mono signals you pretty well need the iso amp,
> but I wanted to confirm that.
>
> Finally Bob, assuming I do need an iso amp, I'd like to order one of your
> remaining circuit boards for it. Please advise how I should do so. I was a
> teenage ham radio operator and worked in an two-way radio factory during my
> youth so I'm very comfortable soldering and building projects.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> George Jenson
> Tucson, AZ
> RV-7 in progress
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | wiring of 477 rotax |
I need a little help!!! I have a used rotax 447 with single carb. There are three
wire looms coming out of case. #1 has a yellow wire, and a yellow wire with
black stripe on it. #2 has a green wire, and a green wire with black stripe
on it. #3 has two black wires, and one brown wire. I need to know where these
wires should be hooked up. There is only a pull starter, and no lights.
I need to know how to wire it to run and how to wire in a tach. Also I think
is puts out some voltage when running that may be used somewhere. Please Help????
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175378#175378
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: wiring of 477 rotax |
Sam, I have the info but it is in my hangar. If no one else gets the info to
you by tomorrow I'll send it to you.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Brunson" <samscycles@juno.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: wiring of 477 rotax
> <samscycles@juno.com>
>
> I need a little help!!! I have a used rotax 447 with single carb. There
> are three wire looms coming out of case. #1 has a yellow wire, and a
> yellow wire with black stripe on it. #2 has a green wire, and a green
> wire with black stripe on it. #3 has two black wires, and one brown wire.
> I need to know where these wires should be hooked up. There is only a
> pull starter, and no lights. I need to know how to wire it to run and how
> to wire in a tach. Also I think is puts out some voltage when running
> that may be used somewhere. Please Help????
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175378#175378
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: wiring of 477 rotax |
At 06:09 PM 4/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I need a little help!!! I have a used rotax 447 with single carb. There
>are three wire looms coming out of case. #1 has a yellow wire, and a
>yellow wire with black stripe on it. #2 has a green wire, and a green
>wire with black stripe on it. #3 has two black wires, and one brown
>wire. I need to know where these wires should be hooked up. There is
>only a pull starter, and no lights. I need to know how to wire it to run
>and how to wire in a tach. Also I think is puts out some voltage when
>running that may be used somewhere. Please Help????
>
You can find a number of Rotax data packages at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Rotax/
In particular, the information you want is in
the 503 series installation manual:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Rotax/Rotax_503_installation_manual.pdf
If you're wanting only the electrical system, download:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Rotax/Rotax_503_Electrical.pdf
Bob . . .
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( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
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