Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: Mechanical question ()
2. 07:57 AM - Key Switch (Edward Christian)
3. 08:15 AM - Artex Batteries (Jim Piavis)
4. 08:27 AM - Re: navaid devices (Jim McBurney)
5. 08:45 AM - Re: Key Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 09:52 AM - Re: Hope someone can point me in the right direction for troubleshooting. (Dan Morrow)
7. 10:15 AM - Re: Hope someone can point me in the right direction for troubleshooting. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
8. 12:56 PM - Re: Key Switch (Richard Dudley)
9. 02:24 PM - Throttle Servo (Jay Caldwell)
10. 02:45 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 02:50 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (Ed Anderson)
12. 02:51 PM - Re: ELT Antenna for Fiberglass aircraft (any aircraft) ()
13. 03:09 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (BobsV35B@aol.com)
14. 03:09 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 04:25 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (Matt Prather)
16. 05:14 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (Ed Anderson)
17. 05:25 PM - Re: Throttle Servo (Richard Girard)
18. 10:45 PM - Re: Mechanical question (John Swartout)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Mechanical question |
The simple and elegant solution is to use a dab of epoxy. I will stick
to anything. Position the holder such that you can get the top off to
service the fuse. If you want to buy something take a look at click-bond
products. They have a fastener for everything you could ever want to tie
down in your airplane. Warning - they are not exactly cheap.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical question
John,
The Buss fuse holders that I used had recessed holes suitable for number
8
machine screws. The local hardware store aircraft section supplied
screws of
correct length.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:43 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical question
> <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Does anyone have a nice, elegant method for mounting on a flat surface
> the
> in-line automotive-type fuse-holder sold by B&C? It has no built-in
> mounting tab or any such thing.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 7:24 AM
>
>
Message 2
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Does someone have a Z-11 diagram with a keyed ACS type switch (Off/L/R/
Start)? Redoing panel and using some old components - I know it is not
optimum.
Ed
Message 3
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Anyone know the best source for an Artex ELT battery replacement? I need on
e for an ME406.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: navaid devices |
I just read this post, and put in a call to Navaid Devices. They aren't
answering their telephone, so it may be true. Bummer! I was about to order
their product.
Blue skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
Augusta GA
90% done, 90% left
Message 5
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At 10:53 AM 4/25/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><edchristian@knology.net>
>
>Does someone have a Z-11 diagram with a keyed ACS type switch (Off/L/R/
>Start)? Redoing panel and using some old components - I know it is not
>optimum.
Figure Z-26 is the adjunct drawing to support the legacy
magneto/start switch. Keep in mind that all the Z-Figures
are intended to suggest architectures. The customization
of wire gauges, fuse/breaker sizes, bus structures,
alternator, starter, and ignition selections make for a
few million different combinations of electrical system
drawings . . . all of which conform to the spirit and
intent of Z-11.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Hope someone can point me in the right direction |
for troubleshooting.
> >When I next started the engine, I could hear what sounded like a loose
> >strap blowing and hitting against the bottom of the plane. I have since
> >found that this sound is caused by one of the solenoids making a clicking
> >noise. This sound would go away if I turned the alternator off, but the
> >alternator was outputting power when it was on. The next day, I found
> >that I could not get the alternator to output power at all. But&the
> >clicking sound was gone!
FYI the clicking sound when starting is a result of low battery voltage.
I've seen this several times in autos. What happens is you turn on the
starter switch which causes the starter solenoid to engage. The starter
comes on line putting humongous load on battery. Battery can't cope and
voltage drops so far that starter solenoid disengages. Starter load is
gone and battery voltage recovers and starter solenoid reengages etc.
The result is a rapid clicking sound.
This can be the result of an old battery or corroded battery cables or
corroded battery terminals or discharged battery or alternator failing
to charge the battery or bad starter or intermittent connections etc.
Basically you just have to check everything.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Hope someone can point me in the right direction |
for troubleshooting.
Depends where the solenoid is of course..Some experimentals use a solenoid to switch
the output of the alternator...If this is the case then its probably the
solenoid has died.
If it is the battery contactor then the rapid turning on and off may have fried
the output diodes of the alternator itself.
I would try connecting the alternator B lead directly to the battery terminal and
see if it wakes up...If not get the alternator checked out.
Assumes there is not an intermittent wiring connection to the alternator as well.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Morrow
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hope someone can point me in the right direction
for troubleshooting.
--> <DanFM01@butter.toast.net>
> >When I next started the engine, I could hear what sounded like a
> >loose strap blowing and hitting against the bottom of the plane. I
> >have since found that this sound is caused by one of the solenoids
> >making a clicking noise. This sound would go away if I turned the
> >alternator off, but the alternator was outputting power when it was
> >on. The next day, I found that I could not get the alternator to
> >output power at all. But&the clicking sound was gone!
FYI the clicking sound when starting is a result of low battery voltage.
I've seen this several times in autos. What happens is you turn on the starter
switch which causes the starter solenoid to engage. The starter comes on line
putting humongous load on battery. Battery can't cope and voltage drops so
far that starter solenoid disengages. Starter load is gone and battery voltage
recovers and starter solenoid reengages etc.
The result is a rapid clicking sound.
This can be the result of an old battery or corroded battery cables or corroded
battery terminals or discharged battery or alternator failing to charge the battery
or bad starter or intermittent connections etc.
Basically you just have to check everything.
Message 8
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Hi Ed,
The system rejected my attachment in CAD format.
So I am trying again with a DWG format.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
RV-6A flying
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Christian" <edchristian@knology.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:53 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Switch
> <edchristian@knology.net>
>
> Does someone have a Z-11 diagram with a keyed ACS type switch (Off/L/R/
> Start)? Redoing panel and using some old components - I know it is not
> optimum.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
Message 9
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I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one canm fly
from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the center.
I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo to the "throttle
door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant with a "pot" connected
to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot with left hand and Co
pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could assign the servo to the Pilot
or Copilot.
Any ideas?
Jay F. Caldwell
Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
4181 Tamilynn Court
San Diego, CA 92122
Office email caldwell@mswin.net
Voice 858.453.4594
Facsimile 858.452.1560
Work 619.562.0885
Mobile 858.336.0394
Hanger 760-789-2557
Message 10
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No, No and...NO...
This is a really bad idea. This represents a single point of failure which
is always a bad idea on a critical system on an airplane...Especially an el
ectrical one
In other words if any one of half a dozen failures occurs you could very ea
sily die...namely, a fuse blows, faulty wring, servo dies...etc
Don't do it!
Maybe if you have 2 servos and two electrically independant pots then maybe
but really a cable is the way to go...two cables if you have two throttles
.
Would the CH601 dual arrangement work?..I have an RV7 that has two airplane
style cables going to one throttle..works fine...well it will when I insta
ll the second cable..:)
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Caldwell
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:21 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one canm
fly from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the center.
I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo to t
he "throttle door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant with a "pot" co
nnected to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot with left ha
nd and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could assign the servo
to the Pilot or Copilot.
Any ideas?
Jay F. Caldwell
Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
4181 Tamilynn Court
San Diego, CA 92122
Office email caldwell@mswin.net
Voice 858.453.4594
Facsimile 858.452.1560
Work 619.562.0885
Mobile 858.336.0394
Hanger 760-789-2557
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Servo |
Jay, I know of someone who is developing a "fly by wire" throttle body
using the Mazda "Fly by wire throttle body - Rx-8 auto". He is
installing it in his Rv-8. He produces electronic devices for aircraft.
I have seen it in operation - not only is it very neat, but it also
opens up possibility of some automatic engine control features such as:
1. Setting throttle to maintain engine rpm
2. Setting throttle to maintain engine manifold pressure
3. Setting throttle to maintain a constant fuel flow
etc.
Contact me off-line if interested.
Ed Anderson
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Caldwell
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:20 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one
canm fly from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the
center.
I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo
to the "throttle door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant with a
"pot" connected to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot
with left hand and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could
assign the servo to the Pilot or Copilot.
Any ideas?
Jay F. Caldwell
Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
4181 Tamilynn Court
San Diego, CA 92122
Office email caldwell@mswin.net
Voice 858.453.4594
Facsimile 858.452.1560
Work 619.562.0885
Mobile 858.336.0394
Hanger 760-789-2557
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna for Fiberglass aircraft (any aircraft) |
Yes loss of satellite monitoring of 121.5 Mhz will make
little difference, but you are also losing 246Mhz
completely. That is a big difference. that means the only
ELT you will have is something that transmit less than a
kids walkie-talkie (100mW) and has a range of a mile or
two at BEST. Basically they have to know where you are
first before they can find you.
The only way you really will be FOUND is with a
satellite signal, at least in a large and/or remote area.
What does that mean, no one will come to look for you.
Remember Steve Fossett was well-known for his world
record-setting adventures in balloons, sailboats, gliders,
and powered aircraft. He took off in Sep 2007. Never
been found despite a search that was very extensive, a
1000 times more extensive than if you or I went
missing.
406Mhz is better in every way. Resist all you want but I
find that foolish if flying over any remotely sparsely
populated area, especially if you are responsible for
other peoples lives, aka passengers, not to have one.
At least get a PLB.
BTW 406Mhz is 5 watt pulses which is one of the many
reasons its better. 121.5Mhz 100mW, do the math.
RUBBER DUCKIE ANTENNA - STUPID ON A GOOD DAY
Its best to use the antenna that comes with the ELT. If
you know anything about RUBBER DUCKIE antennas
you know they suck. There is NO magic in antennas
and you need length (to resonate at the proper freq).
"Duckie" base loaded coil non-ground plane mono-pole
antennas are a HUGE sacrifice. They really are terrible
even for the little handheld receiver or transceiver they
where designed for, meaning a super big compromise.
BTW key words, "they where designed for", meand they
where never made for your ELT ever; they WILL cause
HUGE loss in efficiency. It's you life, so beware.
LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
http://tiny.cc/9tGKn
-Verses-
http://www.edmo.com/modules/products/xarimages/Large/455-5044.jpg
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5631/eltantennasls8.jpg
(RV's w/ ELT antenna's zoom in and see if you can see them)
"THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR AN EXTERNALLY MOUNTED 1/2 WAVE DIPOLE"
(Our whips are 1/4 wave but act as 1/2 wave on a ground plane)
You are dealing with 121.5Mhz @ 100 mW (milli watts)
power. You might as well have a string-N-can if you
screw with these dumb little excuses for an antenna.
Forget 246Mhz its gone. No birds in the sky are looking.
If talking 406Mhz they are already super short. 406Mhz
is UHF and the antenna is SMALL, PUT IT OUTSIDE
WHERE IT BELONGS.
If you get a new 406Mhz and I think you should, you
will most likely have two antennas one for 121.5Mhz
and one for 406Mhz. As you know as the freq goes up
the wave length goes down and so does antenna
length. Artex has the one antenna version that handles
both freqs (121.5 and 406). It is OK to have a longer
antenna (for 121.5mhz) that also handles the higher
UHF freq (ie 406Mhz) if designed properly.
It is not OK to go the other way, have a short antenna
(rubber duckie) for a radio that needs a long antenna. You
can always go longer bit not shorter. Again there is NO
magic or violations of physics. "Trick" the radio single all
you want but it knows it and there will be loss of efficiency.
A 406 Mhz antenna is so short no rubber duckie need apply.
This C-130 doing a grid at 6,000 agl (mile up)
at 220kts is looking for you. If your weak signal is
made weaker with a rubber duck or directional loop they
might not "hear you", even if they fly directly overhead.
121.5Mhz is for LOCAL DF steer only after they found
you.
Antenna's are a special deal, engineered to work with
that specific transmitter, power & freq. Unless a radio expert,
who knows antenna theory and how to test it, have
the equipment and knowledge to do so, screwing with it
just to make your plane look good is kind silly in my
opinion.
LOOP ANTENNAS BAD FOR ELT's (my opinion)
Loop Antenna? Well when I hear loop, normally I get
excited, because loops are directional, give good GAIN
if pointed and tuned properly and have good noise
rejection. However loop antennas claim to fame is
for lower freqs (HF or MW). Since HF and MW wave
lengths are long, their antennas are long (10' to ++100'),
so a loop is a good solution for getting the required length
to resonate at those long wave freqs a still be somewhat
compact in size. However the directional part is a draw back
for a "FIND ME" Beacon which should be omnidirectional.
THE WHEEL, REINVENTED, WHY?
Why do we need to reinvent the wheel when its already
been done for us. Yes I know you glue and string
airplane guys want to hide your antennas. OK than put
a 1/2 wave in the vertical stab or put a 1/4 wave
reflected dipole (acts like 1/2 wave) with a good grd plane.
A good 1/2 wave or 1/4 wave reflected dipole is great for
the HF and UHF band.
The Wings and Wheels antennas for gliders, like their
non ground plane 1/2 wave will work. Again who knows
how it will really work if the real world; again 121.5Mhz is
pretty lame "to be found" with anyway. At least these
antennas are professionally designed and made. There
is nothing wrong with making your own antenna if you
know what you are doing, but if your are making a smaller
antenna or one stuffed in a wing top or in between the
vert and horz stabs with horz polarization or screwing on
a rubber duckie antenna thinking you are being clever you
are not.
Do some test with your home-brew deal. Go to a big airport
and with-in the first 5 min of the hour with no more than
5 sec "on time" check range with a receiver and sensitive
signal meter. May be the CAP can help w/ some gear? The
reciver antenna can be a whip, loop or beam, great for DF
(Direction finding), but the latter two req you know where point.
Even have get some one to fly over, with receiver/meter. See
how far out you can transmit in different directions. I think you
will be disappointed with hidden antennas laying down inside
fuselages or rubber duckies. External and vertical with good
ground plane will maximize performance. Now we can get into
what if the plane flips but save that for a different time.
406Mhz antennas are so small just put them
outside the plane with a ground plane. It will not cause
drag or distract from the beauty of your plane.
#1 advice, USE THE ANTENNA THAT CAME WITH IT
and mount it as instructed. It really is the Law, since
the ELT is a TYPE certificate item. The ELT and its
installation is one of the few things an experimental
must have, must be TYPE CERT (including installation)
if operations require you having an ELT at all. I know
we get away with some crazy stuff but its your life.
Unless you are a Ham radio Gen / Extra and have the
wherewithal (& equipment) to test and evaluate your
custom ELT antenna system, than I would use the KISS
method and mount the antenna outside per the ELT's
instructions. A 121.5 Mhz elt whip cost you about 1/8 to
1/4 mph loss at 220 mph. I don't think you'll notice it. A
406Mhz Ant is the size of transponder & almost invisible
with no drag. Make it an airplane. Airplanes have antennas.
Fiberglass guys have more antenna options but a 406Mhz elt
should be the first option.
Just MY opinion, George
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Servo |
Good Afternoon Jay,
I know this is an electrical list, but I think I would look at a Stearman or
other tandem cockpit airplane for guidance.
Even the J-3 Cub uses two throttles that move at the same time.
I think a mechanical system would be better. As a flight instructor, I also
like the idea of both controls moving when either one is actuated. One of the
things I don't like about the Air Bus is that you can't see what movements
the copilot is making on his/her side stick.
I would think a mechanical setup would be easy to arrange, very economical,
and very reliable.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 4/25/2008 4:26:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
caldwelljf@sbcglobal.net writes:
I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one can
fly from either side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the center.
I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo to
the "throttle door", I could then connect a throttle quadrant with a "pot"
connected to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot with left hand
and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could assign the servo to the
Pilot or Copilot.
Any ideas?
Jay F. Caldwell
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 14
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Buy a constant speed prop!...Does all of this, more efficiently (cus closin
g a throttle is a poor thing to do efficiency wise;...at least at cruise) a
nd its safer!
One dirty pot and does you throttle go to idle?..Like everything else all t
he fialure modes have to be understood.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
Jay, I know of someone who is developing a "fly by wire" throttle body usin
g the Mazda "Fly by wire throttle body - Rx-8 auto". He is installing it i
n his Rv-8. He produces electronic devices for aircraft. I have seen it i
n operation - not only is it very neat, but it also opens up possibility of
some automatic engine control features such as:
1. Setting throttle to maintain engine rpm
2. Setting throttle to maintain engine manifold pressure
3. Setting throttle to maintain a constant fuel flow
etc.
Contact me off-line if interested.
Ed Anderson
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com<mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
http://www.andersonee.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Caldwell<mailto:caldwelljf@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:20 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one canm
fly from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the center.
I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo to t
he "throttle door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant with a "pot" co
nnected to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot with left ha
nd and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could assign the servo
to the Pilot or Copilot.
Any ideas?
Jay F. Caldwell
Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
4181 Tamilynn Court
San Diego, CA 92122
Office email caldwell@mswin.net
Voice 858.453.4594
Facsimile 858.452.1560
Work 619.562.0885
Mobile 858.336.0394
Hanger 760-789-2557
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 15
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I know fly by wire makes everybody's hair stand up.. But I don't think
it's a terrible idea. It would definitely require careful design and
implementation, but it could certainly be lighter and lower maintenance.
A few thoughts:
The control doesn't have to use a pot to generate signal. An optical
position sensor seems feasible to me. Or maybe a capacitive sensor.
The throttle levers could be motorized - effectively linking them together
- and provide feedback. Not trivial, but possible. A switch on the panel
would select which throttle handle was in charge, and which was just
indicating.
It could also be relatively easy to make the throttle body spring loaded
to WOT - achieving this position if power is lost/cut to the
controller/positioner. A reasonable fail safe not unlike our existing
all-mechanic systems.
At would also be reasonably easy to put a mechanical echo throttle control
in the middle of the panel. It would just ride along with what the
whatever position the throttle body was in (indicating) - unless you had a
control failure. If the power to the system is cut, this is now the
control. The ergonomics might be less than optimal, but it would allow
you to control the engine output.
All that said, it should be fairly easy to make an all mechanical setup.
You could have a torque tube attached to the panel which translates the
throttle movement from one side to the other. I kind of wonder about how
to make a friction lock work, but I'm sure it's possible.
If it were mine, I'd use a mechanical throttle on each side of the panel
but only one mixture (and prop) control - in the middle.
Regards,
Matt-
> Buy a constant speed prop!...Does all of this, more efficiently (cus
> closing a throttle is a poor thing to do efficiency wise;...at least at
> cruise) and its safer!
>
> One dirty pot and does you throttle go to idle?..Like everything else all
> the fialure modes have to be understood.
>
> Frank
>
> ________________________________
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
> Anderson
> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:46 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
>
> Jay, I know of someone who is developing a "fly by wire" throttle body
> using the Mazda "Fly by wire throttle body - Rx-8 auto". He is installing
> it in his Rv-8. He produces electronic devices for aircraft. I have seen
> it in operation - not only is it very neat, but it also opens up
> possibility of some automatic engine control features such as:
>
> 1. Setting throttle to maintain engine rpm
> 2. Setting throttle to maintain engine manifold pressure
> 3. Setting throttle to maintain a constant fuel flow
> etc.
>
> Contact me off-line if interested.
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Ed Anderson
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> Matthews, NC
> eanderson@carolina.rr.com<mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> http://www.andersonee.com
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jay Caldwell<mailto:caldwelljf@sbcglobal.net>
> To:
> aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:20 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
>
> I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one canm
> fly from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the center.
>
> I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo to
> the "throttle door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant with a "pot"
> connected to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot with left
> hand and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could assign the
> servo to the Pilot or Copilot.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Jay F. Caldwell
> Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
> 4181 Tamilynn Court
> San Diego, CA 92122
> Office email caldwell@mswin.net
> Voice 858.453.4594
> Facsimile 858.452.1560
> Work 619.562.0885
> Mobile 858.336.0394
> Hanger 760-789-2557
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Servo |
No doubt, a CS is more efficient, but also very much more costly to
acquire and properly maintain and props also fail - (single point of
failure? - unless you fly a twin). A case could be make that a fixed
pitch prop is inherently more safe than a CS. But, many (if not most of
us) would love to have a light weight (inexpensive) CS hung off our nose
(or tail as the case may be) even if less reliable.
Anything mechanical or electronic can and will eventually fail (cables
also break, bind or become detached). Check on the FAA accident list
and observe how frequently an engine (or some related component) is
cited in the accident report. Yet, we have been producing and flying
with essentially the same engine design for 60 years.
One could point out that by virtue of our decision to be airborne
(without naturally bestowed wings) we are increasing our risk, yet, we
take that risk. Because, most of us believe (correctly or not) that we
mitigate that risk in our favor by our awareness, knowledge, skills and
understanding.
Every new approach in aviation has certainly carried risks - frequently
not fully appreciate at the beginning- but techniques and technology
has generally overcome the faults to give us increased reliability and
safety. Space flight relies almost exclusively on electronic controls
vice mechanical ones - simply because it has been repeatedly shown that
properly designed electronic systems fail less often than mechanical
ones and are generally much easier to build redundancy/safe guards into
in event they should fail.
Thinking about Jimmy Dolittle and the other participants in first
"instrument" flights come to mind. Hydraulic brakes replacing cables,
GPS, autopilots, heated pitot tubes, electric gyros, electric fuel
pumps, etc., are just a few of what once were "new " technology now
commonly accepted.
Fortunately, we have sufficient difference of opinions and views on this
list that each side gets presented and the inquiring mind can make a
(hopefully) informed decision. So I also urge caution being undertaken
when trying a "different" approach - make certain you understand the
risks as well as your ability to assess and mitigate them - you may fool
yourself, but not the laws of physics. That said, if no one tried
anything new - there would be no advancement in aviation.
But, to answer your specific question about possible pot malfunction -
while environmentally sealed pots are readily available, if I were to
design a fly-by-wire throttle, I would probably go with a digital pot
which has no physical parts to wear and which can have values stored in
nonvolatile memory to handle such things as lost of control signal, etc
.
Excerpt from a producer of such devices:
Digital potentiometers are far more reliable than mechanical
potentiometers. Digital pots can easily guarantee 50,000 writing cycles,
while the mechanical parts rate only a few thousand, and sometimes only
a few hundred.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/3417/
Best Regards
Ed
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
Buy a constant speed prop!...Does all of this, more efficiently (cus
closing a throttle is a poor thing to do efficiency wise;...at least at
cruise) and its safer!
One dirty pot and does you throttle go to idle?..Like everything else
all the fialure modes have to be understood.
Frank
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Anderson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:46 PM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
Jay, I know of someone who is developing a "fly by wire" throttle body
using the Mazda "Fly by wire throttle body - Rx-8 auto". He is
installing it in his Rv-8. He produces electronic devices for aircraft.
I have seen it in operation - not only is it very neat, but it also
opens up possibility of some automatic engine control features such as:
1. Setting throttle to maintain engine rpm
2. Setting throttle to maintain engine manifold pressure
3. Setting throttle to maintain a constant fuel flow
etc.
Contact me off-line if interested.
Ed Anderson
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Caldwell
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:20 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so
one canm fly from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the
center.
I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a
servo to the "throttle door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant
with a "pot" connected to it and actuate the throttle from either side;
Pilot with left hand and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I
could assign the servo to the Pilot or Copilot.
Any ideas?
Jay F. Caldwell
Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
4181 Tamilynn Court
San Diego, CA 92122
Office email caldwell@mswin.net
Voice 858.453.4594
Facsimile 858.452.1560
Work 619.562.0885
Mobile 858.336.0394
Hanger 760-789-2557
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ics.com
.matronics.com/contribution
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Servo |
I won't comment either way on the safety of a fly by wire throttle, but I
think Ed is right about the possibilities it presents. The unit in my Toyota
truck is both very reliable and the cruise control is eerily accurate and
easy to adjust upward or downward as needed. Why reinvent the wheel when you
could snag everything out of a wrecking yard?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Matt Prather <mprather@spro.net> wrote:
> >
>
> I know fly by wire makes everybody's hair stand up.. But I don't think
> it's a terrible idea. It would definitely require careful design and
> implementation, but it could certainly be lighter and lower maintenance.
>
> A few thoughts:
>
> The control doesn't have to use a pot to generate signal. An optical
> position sensor seems feasible to me. Or maybe a capacitive sensor.
>
> The throttle levers could be motorized - effectively linking them together
> - and provide feedback. Not trivial, but possible. A switch on the panel
> would select which throttle handle was in charge, and which was just
> indicating.
>
> It could also be relatively easy to make the throttle body spring loaded
> to WOT - achieving this position if power is lost/cut to the
> controller/positioner. A reasonable fail safe not unlike our existing
> all-mechanic systems.
>
> At would also be reasonably easy to put a mechanical echo throttle control
> in the middle of the panel. It would just ride along with what the
> whatever position the throttle body was in (indicating) - unless you had a
> control failure. If the power to the system is cut, this is now the
> control. The ergonomics might be less than optimal, but it would allow
> you to control the engine output.
>
> All that said, it should be fairly easy to make an all mechanical setup.
> You could have a torque tube attached to the panel which translates the
> throttle movement from one side to the other. I kind of wonder about how
> to make a friction lock work, but I'm sure it's possible.
>
> If it were mine, I'd use a mechanical throttle on each side of the panel
> but only one mixture (and prop) control - in the middle.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>
> > Buy a constant speed prop!...Does all of this, more efficiently (cus
> > closing a throttle is a poor thing to do efficiency wise;...at least at
> > cruise) and its safer!
> >
> > One dirty pot and does you throttle go to idle?..Like everything else all
> > the fialure modes have to be understood.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
> > Anderson
> > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:46 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
> >
> > Jay, I know of someone who is developing a "fly by wire" throttle body
> > using the Mazda "Fly by wire throttle body - Rx-8 auto". He is
> installing
> > it in his Rv-8. He produces electronic devices for aircraft. I have
> seen
> > it in operation - not only is it very neat, but it also opens up
> > possibility of some automatic engine control features such as:
> >
> > 1. Setting throttle to maintain engine rpm
> > 2. Setting throttle to maintain engine manifold pressure
> > 3. Setting throttle to maintain a constant fuel flow
> > etc.
> >
> > Contact me off-line if interested.
> >
> > Ed Anderson
> >
> > Ed Anderson
> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> > Matthews, NC
> > eanderson@carolina.rr.com<mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> > http://www.andersonee.com
> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jay Caldwell<mailto:caldwelljf@sbcglobal.net>
> > To:
> > aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:20 PM
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Throttle Servo
> >
> > I am building a CH-801 and am in need of a dual throttle setup so one
> canm
> > fly from eithr side given there is a "Y" shaped stick in the center.
> >
> > I had in mind a "fly by wire" arrangement. If I could connect a servo to
> > the "throttle door", I could then conect a throttle quadrant with a "pot"
> > connected to it and actuate the throttle from either side; Pilot with
> left
> > hand and Co pilot with right hand.. Using a switch I could assign the
> > servo to the Pilot or Copilot.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Jay F. Caldwell
> > Owner, Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
> > 4181 Tamilynn Court
> > San Diego, CA 92122
> > Office email caldwell@mswin.net
> > Voice 858.453.4594
> > Facsimile 858.452.1560
> > Work 619.562.0885
> > Mobile 858.336.0394
> > Hanger 760-789-2557
> >
> >
> >
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Mechanical question |
I'll take a look at the Click Bond website. I see you have to register (Grrrrrrr!!!!)
to look at their products. Thanks for the tip. I have a hunch I'll wish
I'd known about them about 3,000 hours of airplane-building ago.
John
-----Original Message-----
>From: longg@pjm.com
>Sent: Apr 25, 2008 8:43 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical question
>
>
>The simple and elegant solution is to use a dab of epoxy. I will stick
>to anything. Position the holder such that you can get the top off to
>service the fuse. If you want to buy something take a look at click-bond
>products. They have a fastener for everything you could ever want to tie
>down in your airplane. Warning - they are not exactly cheap.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:08 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical question
>
>
>
>John,
>
>The Buss fuse holders that I used had recessed holes suitable for number
>8
>machine screws. The local hardware store aircraft section supplied
>screws of
>correct length.
>
>Jim in Kelowna
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:43 PM
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical question
>
>
>> <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have a nice, elegant method for mounting on a flat surface
>
>> the
>> in-line automotive-type fuse-holder sold by B&C? It has no built-in
>> mounting tab or any such thing.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 7:24 AM
>>
>>
>
>
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