---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/12/08: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:03 AM - Re: Z-19 Item Clarification (Mark Sletten) 2. 07:07 AM - GPS antennas with miniature connector (Carlos Trigo) 3. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification () 4. 08:36 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Ernest Christley) 5. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification (Glaeser, Dennis A) 6. 09:20 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Carlos Trigo) 7. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification (Carlos Trigo) 8. 10:16 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (simon@synchronousdesign.com) 9. 10:53 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Matt Prather) 10. 11:06 AM - Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? (mikef) 11. 11:09 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Joe Dubner) 12. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification () 13. 11:46 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 11:49 AM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (simon@synchronousdesign.com) 15. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 16. 12:41 PM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Matt Prather) 17. 01:14 PM - Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? (Glaeser, Dennis A) 18. 01:33 PM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (simon@synchronousdesign.com) 19. 02:50 PM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Carlos Trigo) 20. 03:40 PM - Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? (mikef) 21. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: EFIS Battery Back-up Power (Henry Trzeciakowski) 22. 07:02 PM - Re: GPS antennas with miniature connector (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 23. 07:31 PM - Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:14 PM - 14 VDC Power Cord for Digital Video Camera? (r falstad) 25. 08:40 PM - SMB connnectors on small coax (RG-174 et. als.) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 08:48 PM - Re: 14 VDC Power Cord for Digital Video Camera? (Carl Morgan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:36 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification From: "Mark Sletten" sshook(at)cox.net wrote: > The "requirement" I spoke of came about from an off-field incident in March which Eggenfellner said that they will not support bridge rectifiers being used for their engines. Scott, 1. The NTSB has not completed its investigation of this accident yet. I would hesitate to base design decisions on speculation regarding ANY accident -- especially if the speculation comes from a party with an interest in the results of that investigation. 2. I do not believe the accident aircraft to which you refer incorporated a bridge rectifier in the power path to the critical engine components. 3. If you are leery about using bridge rectifiers there are other products capable of controlling power routing besides them. Regards, -------- Mark Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182673#182673 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:17 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector Listers I have 2 GPS antennas to install, one is for my Trutrak ADI and the other for the GRT - EFIS, both having internal GPS. I attached 2 pictures of one of them, they are similar, both use a thin cable (less than 1/8" outer diameter) and a miniature brass connector. Since we must always seek to save some weight in our birds, I have 2 questions: First question, which is probably dumb, but here it goes: can I install only one antenna and T the cable for both devices? Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, can I cut it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary length, and reconnect the cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the necessary length and use a new connector? In this case, where can I find these miniature connectors and is there a special crimper for these? Carlos Trigo ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification From: I spoke with two Legacy builders from Princeton, NJ on Saturday. One of their fellow builders was flying their RV-9 and Egg Sube when a $20.00 switch or diode failed. You can have all the batteries and busses you like, the Sube ignition maintains a single point of failure. That's why they call it Experimental. The crash pilot escaped with a mangled foot and broken leg. He is re-building and now a favorite customer at Lycoming. BTW - If he had turned right off after take-off there are smoother fields available for landing. As Murphy would have it, he went left towards the trees. Performance goes far beyond switches. Nothing is perfect, but Lycoming still offers the Briggs and Stratton reliability to bring you home again and again. Keep it smart; wire for reliability not convenience. The result: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080319X00337&key=1 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sletten Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification --> sshook(at)cox.net wrote: > The "requirement" I spoke of came about from an off-field incident in > March which Eggenfellner said that they will not support bridge > rectifiers being used for their engines. Scott, 1. The NTSB has not completed its investigation of this accident yet. I would hesitate to base design decisions on speculation regarding ANY accident -- especially if the speculation comes from a party with an interest in the results of that investigation. 2. I do not believe the accident aircraft to which you refer incorporated a bridge rectifier in the power path to the critical engine components. 3. If you are leery about using bridge rectifiers there are other products capable of controlling power routing besides them. Regards, -------- Mark Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182673#182673 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:41 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector Carlos Trigo wrote: > Listers > > I have 2 GPS antennas to install, one is for my Trutrak ADI and the other > for the GRT - EFIS, both having internal GPS. > I attached 2 pictures of one of them, they are similar, both use a thin > cable (less than 1/8" outer diameter) and a miniature brass connector. > > Since we must always seek to save some weight in our birds, I have 2 > questions: > > First question, which is probably dumb, but here it goes: can I install only > one antenna and T the cable for both devices? > Yes. You'll just have to fly much closer to the satellites in order to get sufficient signal strength to get a lock. Remember that those satellites are REALLY far away (22,500 miles ?), which means your receiver has to capture a very weak signal. Cutting the received signal in half isn't going to be helpful. > Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, can I cut > it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary length, and reconnect the > cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? > Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the necessary length > and use a new connector? In this case, where can I find these miniature > connectors and is there a special crimper for these? > That can be done, but you're trading a crimp done constantly by a machine that has some semblance of quality control for a one-off job done by someone that (so far) doesn't even know which crimper to use. You could eventually do a better job than the machine. The question is if the weight savings are worth the expense and effort. I suggest you weigh that 1/8" cable and then decide if it is worth your effort. I you think it is, then try splitting it then see how many satellites it the receiver will lock onto. The ones to watch for are the ones on the horizons, as they will be giving the weakest signals. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" ---------------------------------------------------------------- The "requirement" I spoke of came about from an off-field incident in March which Eggenfellner said that they will not support bridge rectifiers being used for their engines. Scott R. Shook RV-7A (Building) N696JS (Reserved) ---------------------------------------------------------------- The cause of that incident has not been determined. Jan's assessment that it was 'the diodes' is his pure unfounded speculation, and totally wrong IMHO and experience. They were high capacity (45V 60A) diodes - NOT a bridge rectifier (which I agree would be inadequate for this application). I am using diodes (50HQ035) in my Egg H6 ignition circuit without any problems (all 14.5 hours so far :-) My electrical design (similar to Z-19) can be viewed at: http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/electrical_plan.htm I have a temp sensor on the highest amp (EFI) diode on the main ignition circuit and the highest temp it has seen is 103F (it's rated to 350F). My design was complete, and my airplane wired well before the current H6 installation manual was published. When Jan decided to get away from using the EXPBUS, he was looking for alternative designs, so I sent him mine, but obviously it wasn't adopted. Jan does not support using diodes, and that's OK with me. There is nothing 'wrong' with their design, and the 4PDT switch they specify is a high quality switch. I just prefer multiple redundant (and much cheaper) switches. My design could be implemented without the diodes and would work just fine, but would not be as 'operator error proof' under certain (albeit highly unlikely) failure modes. Dennis Glaeser RV-7A Egg-H6 - flying - Phase 1 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:29 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector Dear Ernest Although you were not of much help, thanks anyway. If I didn't think it was worth the effort to save the weight, I wouldn't have asked. Can somebody else please indicate me a way of getting rid of those 2 useless coils of GPS antenna cable? Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley > Sent: segunda-feira, 12 de Maio de 2008 16:33 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector > > > Carlos Trigo wrote: > > Listers > > > > I have 2 GPS antennas to install, one is for my Trutrak ADI and the other > > for the GRT - EFIS, both having internal GPS. > > I attached 2 pictures of one of them, they are similar, both use a thin > > cable (less than 1/8" outer diameter) and a miniature brass connector. > > > > Since we must always seek to save some weight in our birds, I have 2 > > questions: > > > > First question, which is probably dumb, but here it goes: can I install only > > one antenna and T the cable for both devices? > > > Yes. You'll just have to fly much closer to the satellites in order to > get sufficient signal strength to get a lock. Remember that those > satellites are REALLY far away (22,500 miles ?), which means your > receiver has to capture a very weak signal. Cutting the received signal > in half isn't going to be helpful. > > Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, can I cut > > it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary length, and reconnect the > > cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? > > Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the necessary length > > and use a new connector? In this case, where can I find these miniature > > connectors and is there a special crimper for these? > > > That can be done, but you're trading a crimp done constantly by a > machine that has some semblance of quality control for a one-off job > done by someone that (so far) doesn't even know which crimper to use. > You could eventually do a better job than the machine. The question is > if the weight savings are worth the expense and effort. > > I suggest you weigh that 1/8" cable and then decide if it is worth your > effort. I you think it is, then try splitting it then see how many > satellites it the receiver will lock onto. The ones to watch for are > the ones on the horizons, as they will be giving the weakest signals. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:22 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification It's not my intention to bring to this Electric forum a subject which is more related with engines, but I must say that, to my knowledge: - the cause of that particular accident was not yet determined, and most probably never will, since the fire developed on the retrieval procedure destroyed almost everything - in the preliminary accident report you cited, there is not a single word about a possible cause, and obviously there is not a reference whatsoever to a switch or a diode - the pilot told me he is not re-building, and never mentioned to have become a Lycoming customer, even less "favourite" - you seem to blame the pilot for turning left after the failure, but the failure only happened after he turned left You are free to criticize the pilot, even bash the Eggenfellner factory, or glorify Lycoming, but you have to be more careful with what you say or write Carlos no, I don't have any proxy from Allan or Eggenfellner to defend them DO NOT ARCHIVE > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com > Sent: segunda-feira, 12 de Maio de 2008 16:19 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification > > > I spoke with two Legacy builders from Princeton, NJ on Saturday. One of > their fellow builders was flying their RV-9 and Egg Sube when a $20.00 > switch or diode failed. You can have all the batteries and busses you > like, the Sube ignition maintains a single point of failure. That's why > they call it Experimental. > > The crash pilot escaped with a mangled foot and broken leg. He is > re-building and now a favorite customer at Lycoming. BTW - If he had > turned right off after take-off there are smoother fields available for > landing. As Murphy would have it, he went left towards the trees. > > Performance goes far beyond switches. Nothing is perfect, but Lycoming > still offers the Briggs and Stratton reliability to bring you home again > and again. > > Keep it smart; wire for reliability not convenience. > > The result: > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080319X00337&key=1 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > Sletten > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:00 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification > > > --> > > > sshook(at)cox.net wrote: > > The "requirement" I spoke of came about from an off-field incident in > > March which Eggenfellner said that they will not support bridge > > rectifiers being used for their engines. > > > Scott, > > 1. The NTSB has not completed its investigation of this accident yet. I > would hesitate to base design decisions on speculation regarding ANY > accident -- especially if the speculation comes from a party with an > interest in the results of that investigation. 2. I do not believe the > accident aircraft to which you refer incorporated a bridge rectifier in > the power path to the critical engine components. 3. If you are leery > about using bridge rectifiers there are other products capable of > controlling power routing besides them. > > Regards, > > -------- > Mark Sletten > Legacy FG N828LM > http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182673#182673 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector From: simon@synchronousdesign.com > First question, which is probably dumb, but here it goes: can I > install only one antenna and T the cable for both devices? Carlos, GPS satellites transmit very weak signals, and most GPS receivers are designed to get as much signal strength as possible for best reliability. Putting a T between the antennas and the receiver will guarantee failure or at best, lousy performance. By the way, GPS satellites are not 22,500 miles out. That radius would put them in synchronous orbit with the TV and other satellites. Instead, they are 12,500 miles out and orbit north to south. The transmitters' output powers guarantee weak signals by the time they make it into our atmosphere. The best solution is to provide a dedicated GPS amtenna for each receiver. > Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, > can I cut it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary > length, and reconnect the cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? > Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the > necessary length and use a new connector? In this case, where > can I find these miniature connectors and is there a special > crimper for these? Again, any tampering with the cable between the antenna and the receiver will introduce attenuation. There is a good solution here, though. Instead of cutting it in the middle, just cut it to length and then place the same type connector on the cut end. You may have to buy special tooling to do this, but if you really want to do it and you do it right, you will not suffer signal degradation. All connectors introduce some degradation, but all you're doing is moving the degradation from N feet out to N/2 feet out. Simon Ramirez Oviedo, FL USA ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector From: "Matt Prather" Aren't many GPS antennas active (amplified, powered)? If so, it should be possible to design an impedance match circuit from the output of the antenna to the input of the two receivers. It's also possible that the output of the amplified antenna is robust enough to not require any match circuitry for adequate performance... Regards, Matt- > >> First question, which is probably dumb, but here it goes: can I >> install only one antenna and T the cable for both devices? > > Carlos, GPS satellites transmit very weak signals, and most GPS receivers > are designed to get as much signal strength as possible for best > reliability. Putting a T between the antennas and the receiver will > guarantee failure or at best, lousy performance. By the way, GPS > satellites are not 22,500 miles out. That radius would put them in > synchronous orbit with the TV and other satellites. Instead, they are > 12,500 miles out and orbit north to south. The transmitters' output > powers guarantee weak signals by the time they make it into our > atmosphere. The best solution is to provide a dedicated GPS amtenna for > each receiver. > >> Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, >> can I cut it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary >> length, and reconnect the cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? >> Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the >> necessary length and use a new connector? In this case, where >> can I find these miniature connectors and is there a special >> crimper for these? > > Again, any tampering with the cable between the antenna and the receiver > will introduce attenuation. There is a good solution here, though. > Instead of cutting it in the middle, just cut it to length and then place > the same type connector on the cut end. You may have to buy special > tooling to do this, but if you really want to do it and you do it right, > you will not suffer signal degradation. All connectors introduce some > degradation, but all you're doing is moving the degradation from N feet > out to N/2 feet out. > > Simon Ramirez > Oviedo, FL USA > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? From: "mikef" I am building a Z-19 type electrical system and I have a question about a switch configuration. I was planning to use a 2-10 / three position to view voltage on different buses, depending on the position: 1. E Bus voltage 2. Main Battery Bus voltage 3. Engine Battery Bus voltage I have a digital volt meter with simple +/- inputs. First, do you think this switch 2-10 will work or should I use something else? I've played around with various wire combinations and a 2-10 switch but have come up short (not a short, ha!). I just cannot seem to figure out the right combination that provides the power feed to a single switch position/combination. So that is the crux of my problem, the right wiring for this switch (if possible). I know that all three PLUS leads from the bus to switch to meter need to be isolated through the switch. I seem to get one source isolated but then another switch position lights up two power leads. The ground is common across all buses and batteries. 2-10 switch layout KEYWAY UP 3 6 2 5 1 4 Thanks for any wiring suggestions, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182750#182750 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:56 AM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector On 05/12/2008 09:14 Carlos Trigo wrote: > > Can somebody else please indicate me a way of getting rid of those 2 useless > coils of GPS antenna cable? Carlos, I had a similar dilemma a few years ago and decided to retain the connector rather than install a new one. I cut the cable near the connector, cut the antenna end of the cable to the desired length, and spliced the two pieces of the cable back together. This is also a viable technique if you need to "temporarily" remove the connector for cable routing through a small conduit or to lengthen the cable. The pundits will tell you that you can't splice this coax as it carries a very weak 1.575 GHz signal but I never noticed any degradation in the performance of the GPS. Of course, I paid attention to detail in the splice by keeping the splice length to a minimum, re-insulating the center conductor well, and then restoring the shield coverage to as near 100% as possible. Best, Joe Long-EZ 821RP Lewiston, ID ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification From: 1. the cause will never be determined. The guy who picked up the plane with a bucket loader started a fire which basically destroyed it. 2. yes, the only testimony is from the pilot and what he believes could have happened. Not definite. 3. I did not blame the pilot for turning left, I just mentioned a smoother e-landing would have occurred if he had turned right. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 12:30 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification --> It's not my intention to bring to this Electric forum a subject which is more related with engines, but I must say that, to my knowledge: - the cause of that particular accident was not yet determined, and most probably never will, since the fire developed on the retrieval procedure destroyed almost everything - in the preliminary accident report you cited, there is not a single word about a possible cause, and obviously there is not a reference whatsoever to a switch or a diode - the pilot told me he is not re-building, and never mentioned to have become a Lycoming customer, even less "favourite" - you seem to blame the pilot for turning left after the failure, but the failure only happened after he turned left You are free to criticize the pilot, even bash the Eggenfellner factory, or glorify Lycoming, but you have to be more careful with what you say or write Carlos no, I don't have any proxy from Allan or Eggenfellner to defend them DO NOT ARCHIVE > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com > Sent: segunda-feira, 12 de Maio de 2008 16:19 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification > > > I spoke with two Legacy builders from Princeton, NJ on Saturday. One > of their fellow builders was flying their RV-9 and Egg Sube when a > $20.00 switch or diode failed. You can have all the batteries and > busses you like, the Sube ignition maintains a single point of > failure. That's why they call it Experimental. > > The crash pilot escaped with a mangled foot and broken leg. He is > re-building and now a favorite customer at Lycoming. BTW - If he had > turned right off after take-off there are smoother fields available > for landing. As Murphy would have it, he went left towards the trees. > > Performance goes far beyond switches. Nothing is perfect, but Lycoming > still offers the Briggs and Stratton reliability to bring you home > again and again. > > Keep it smart; wire for reliability not convenience. > > The result: > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080319X00337&key=1 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Mark Sletten > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:00 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification > > > --> > > > sshook(at)cox.net wrote: > > The "requirement" I spoke of came about from an off-field incident > > in March which Eggenfellner said that they will not support bridge > > rectifiers being used for their engines. > > > Scott, > > 1. The NTSB has not completed its investigation of this accident yet. > I would hesitate to base design decisions on speculation regarding ANY > accident -- especially if the speculation comes from a party with an > interest in the results of that investigation. 2. I do not believe the > accident aircraft to which you refer incorporated a bridge rectifier > in the power path to the critical engine components. 3. If you are > leery about using bridge rectifiers there are other products capable > of controlling power routing besides them. > > Regards, > > -------- > Mark Sletten > Legacy FG N828LM > http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182673#182673 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector At 03:04 PM 5/12/2008 +0100, you wrote: >Listers > >I have 2 GPS antennas to install, one is for my Trutrak ADI and the other >for the GRT - EFIS, both having internal GPS. >I attached 2 pictures of one of them, they are similar, both use a thin >cable (less than 1/8" outer diameter) and a miniature brass connector. > >Since we must always seek to save some weight in our birds, I have 2 >questions: > >First question, which is probably dumb, but here it goes: can I install only >one antenna and T the cable for both devices? No, for a couple of reasons. One is that this antenna . . . http://www.laipac.com/ant_GLP1_RA_eng.htm is a powered device that gets its operating voltage from the associated GPS receiver. Mixing two receivers onto a single antenna offers some system integration as well as some system reliability (single point of failure for both receivers) issues. Recommend you stick with dual antennas. >Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, can I cut >it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary length, and reconnect the >cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? >Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the necessary length >and use a new connector? In this case, where can I find these miniature >connectors and is there a special crimper for these? From the photos, I deduce that your antennas are fitted with the SMB series connectors. But these come in several styles that include screw on and push-on. It looks like you have the push-on style. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/SMB_push-on_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/SMB_push-on_2.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/SMB_push-on_3.jpg Digikey sells these connectors but a quick look for tools did not produce any hits. The task of shortening these cables is trivial for anyone with the skills, tools and connectors. You may be able to find someone locally who routinely works with these connectors and get the job done. However, keep in mind that the antenna assembly's performance IS BASED on the as-supplied condition . . . meaning that it will perform as advertised with the long cables. It's doubtful that you'll improve on that performance in any way that you can perceived so this leaves you with the goal of shortening the cables because it looks better and saves a little weight. Obviously we need to leave it to you to deduce the trade-off for accepting the costs and risks for a DIY cable shortening effort and the return on investment for achieving a slicker looking installation and a few ounces of weight. My best recommendation is that (unless you can find some local support in skills/materials/tools) you leave them as supplied. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector From: simon@synchronousdesign.com Matt, If his GPS antenna is powered by the receivers, then a T no doubt will interfere with that function, as DC doesn't pass through transformers. If Carlos can give us more details pertaining to the specific antenna and GPS receiver models, then his problem can be analyzed further. Joe Dubner earlier said he spliced his GPS antenna cable in the middle, and it performed well. I am surprised, but I've seen stranger stuff happen. I'd rather remove the connector, cut the cable, run it through the small opening, and reinstall a new connector. Simon Oviedo, FL USA > > > Aren't many GPS antennas active (amplified, powered)? If so, it > should be possible to design an impedance match circuit from the > output of the antenna to the input of the two receivers. It's > also possible that the output of the amplified antenna is robust > enough to not require any match circuitry for adequate > performance... > > Regards, > > Matt- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:22 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification Hey Carlos, you going to be at the Eggenfeller booth again this year at OSH? Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 11:30 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification It's not my intention to bring to this Electric forum a subject which is more related with engines, but I must say that, to my knowledge: - the cause of that particular accident was not yet determined, and most probably never will, since the fire developed on the retrieval procedure destroyed almost everything - in the preliminary accident report you cited, there is not a single word about a possible cause, and obviously there is not a reference whatsoever to a switch or a diode - the pilot told me he is not re-building, and never mentioned to have become a Lycoming customer, even less "favourite" - you seem to blame the pilot for turning left after the failure, but the failure only happened after he turned left You are free to criticize the pilot, even bash the Eggenfellner factory, or glorify Lycoming, but you have to be more careful with what you say or write Carlos no, I don't have any proxy from Allan or Eggenfellner to defend them DO NOT ARCHIVE > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com > Sent: segunda-feira, 12 de Maio de 2008 16:19 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification > > > I spoke with two Legacy builders from Princeton, NJ on Saturday. One of > their fellow builders was flying their RV-9 and Egg Sube when a $20.00 > switch or diode failed. You can have all the batteries and busses you > like, the Sube ignition maintains a single point of failure. That's why > they call it Experimental. > > The crash pilot escaped with a mangled foot and broken leg. He is > re-building and now a favorite customer at Lycoming. BTW - If he had > turned right off after take-off there are smoother fields available for > landing. As Murphy would have it, he went left towards the trees. > > Performance goes far beyond switches. Nothing is perfect, but Lycoming > still offers the Briggs and Stratton reliability to bring you home again > and again. > > Keep it smart; wire for reliability not convenience. > > The result: > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080319X00337&key=1 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > Sletten > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:00 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Item Clarification > > > --> > > > sshook(at)cox.net wrote: > > The "requirement" I spoke of came about from an off-field incident in > > March which Eggenfellner said that they will not support bridge > > rectifiers being used for their engines. > > > Scott, > > 1. The NTSB has not completed its investigation of this accident yet. I > would hesitate to base design decisions on speculation regarding ANY > accident -- especially if the speculation comes from a party with an > interest in the results of that investigation. 2. I do not believe the > accident aircraft to which you refer incorporated a bridge rectifier in > the power path to the critical engine components. 3. If you are leery > about using bridge rectifiers there are other products capable of > controlling power routing besides them. > > Regards, > > -------- > Mark Sletten > Legacy FG N828LM > http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182673#182673 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector From: "Matt Prather" Right.. You'd have to admit though that it wouldn't be rocket science to make 5VDC available to the antenna - from the antenna side of the matcher. Then again, I'd likely try to find antennae that's smaller/lighter, and with shorter cables.. Matt- > > Matt, > > If his GPS antenna is powered by the receivers, then a T no doubt will > interfere with that function, as DC doesn't pass through transformers. If > Carlos can give us more details pertaining to the specific antenna and GPS > receiver models, then his problem can be analyzed further. > > Joe Dubner earlier said he spliced his GPS antenna cable in the middle, > and it performed well. I am surprised, but I've seen stranger stuff > happen. I'd rather remove the connector, cut the cable, run it through > the small opening, and reinstall a new connector. > > Simon > Oviedo, FL USA > > >> >> >> Aren't many GPS antennas active (amplified, powered)? If so, it >> should be possible to design an impedance match circuit from the >> output of the antenna to the input of the two receivers. It's >> also possible that the output of the amplified antenna is robust >> enough to not require any match circuitry for adequate >> performance... >> >> Regards, >> >> Matt- > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" Mike, The 2-10 is an ON-ON-ON switch, which is useful as a Bat/Alt master, but not suited for your task because it provides for multiple simultaneous connections, and you only want one at a time. Z-19 shows how to connect a 1-7 switch to check the voltage of each of the batteries - any reason not to do it that way? However you do it, you need a way to leave the voltmeter disconnected, or else it is a constant drain on the battery. Dennis Glaeser RV-7A Egg H6 Subaru - flying (Phase 1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ I am building a Z-19 type electrical system and I have a question about a switch configuration. I was planning to use a 2-10 / three position to view voltage on different buses, depending on the position: 1. E Bus voltage 2. Main Battery Bus voltage 3. Engine Battery Bus voltage I have a digital volt meter with simple +/- inputs. First, do you think this switch 2-10 will work or should I use something else? I've played around with various wire combinations and a 2-10 switch but have come up short (not a short, ha!). I just cannot seem to figure out the right combination that provides the power feed to a single switch position/combination. So that is the crux of my problem, the right wiring for this switch (if possible). I know that all three PLUS leads from the bus to switch to meter need to be isolated through the switch. I seem to get one source isolated but then another switch position lights up two power leads. The ground is common across all buses and batteries. 2-10 switch layout KEYWAY UP 3 6 2 5 1 4 Thanks for any wiring suggestions, Mike ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector From: simon@synchronousdesign.com Matt, I admit it is not rocket science to provide DC voltage if you have the source and delivery system for it. In Carlos' case, though, I believe his goal was to squeeze nano-tons of weight out of whatever he was doing, and an additional wire from one receiver or power supply to the antenna would defeat this purpose. He might as well stay with the extra cable length. In an earlier email, Bob said that two receivers supplying VDC will introduce further complications, and one antenna feeding two receivers is a single-failure point. These two statements are valid. If two GPS receivers were going into my airplane, I would have two separate antennas. Of course, I'm not as worried about weight as Carlos is either. I know a guy who wants to cross the Atlantic in July and August, and he's in the same "bloat." Simon Oviedo, FL USA > Right.. You'd have to admit though that it wouldn't be rocket science to > make 5VDC available to the antenna - from the antenna side of the matcher. > > Then again, I'd likely try to find antennae that's smaller/lighter, and > with shorter cables.. > > Matt- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:42 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector OK, I surrender. I will use 2 antennas and keep those lengthy cables. A 3 month diet will save weight on myself, which seems easier (apart from being better for my health). Thanks to everybody who answered. Carlos ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:34 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? From: "mikef" >>Z-19 shows how to connect a 1-7 switch to check the voltage of each of the batteries - any reason not to do it that way? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182793#182793 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:35 PM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EFIS Battery Back-up Power Ron: I'm using Z-11 architecture: single battery/single alternator. My e-bus is already carring about 12 amps, so the idea behind the internal battery EFIS was to wire to main bus. With that in mind, your explaination of the Alternator Failure Procedure is what I wasn't certain of and I believe you clarified and confirmed it. Alternator Failure: 1- E-bus alternate feed is turned ON which powers the e-bus directly from the battery. 2- Immediately turn the Main Battery Contactor OFF (DC Master Power Switch) - Main Bus is now off- line, main bus drops below about 12 volts and the EFIS resorts to it's internal battery. and no additional switches would be necessary. Thanks Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Shannon To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EFIS Battery Back-up Power Hank, If you have just one EFIS, it (or if you have two, the first one) should be wired to the e-bus -- assuming you want to have the EFIS available during endurance (battery only) flight ops -- as most of us would like to have. If you have two EFIS's, you may want to shut one down during endurance ops, and the second one would therefore be wired to the main bus. (If that second EFIS already has an automatic internal battery, you may have to shut it down manually even though it's on the main bus, to save that internal battery.) This is the way my dual AFS-3400 EFIS system is wired. The e-bus is normally fed from the main bus through a one-way diode. When the alternator(s) fail, the e-bus alternate feed is turned ON which powers the e-bus direct from the battery, i.e., not through the main battery contactor. (For brief moment, the e-bus is then effectively fed from two places: the battery upstream of the battery contactor, and the main bus, from downstream of the battery contactor.) After the e-bus alternate feed has been turned ON, you immediately turn the main battery contactor OFF, to rapidly and positively shed those non-essential main bus loads. That's the sequence (e-bus alt feed ON, then main battery contactor OFF) to keep the e-bus powered and avoid rebooting things like your EFIS that are on the e-bus when you shut down the main. When the e-bus alternate feed is ON, and the main battery contactor and main bus are OFF, the e-bus will not back feed the main bus because the diode keeps current from flowing from the e-bus to the main bus. I hope that helps explain the desired function and results. Ron On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Henry Trzeciakowski wrote: Bob: I'm planning to install a AFS 3400 with it's own internal battery back-up...... fused it to my Main Bus.. How I visualize: main alternator goes off line, I kill the alternator via the master switch, turn on the E-Bus alternator feed switch.... Since the Main Bus will be de-energized due to a failed alternator, I assume that the EFIS will utilize it's internal battery to keep the EFIS energized..... OR is my thought process all wrong !!! Do I need a seperate switch on my panel to turn the EFIS off, eventhough the Main Bus is de-energized.... What would the wiring architect be in this case ?? Thanks Hank ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:27 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas with miniature connector In a message dated 05/12/2008 12:18:32 PM Central Daylight Time, simon@synchronousdesign.com writes: > Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, >>> I recently installed a Garmin 430W (WAAS) that has a dedicated GPS antenna with a "required" MINIMUM cable length of something like 18 FEET. Being a "certified" navcom, I kinda surmised that Garmin requires this because they have to make sure there is sufficient signal strength getting to the receiver. Huh? Picture a 430W installed in a King Air with the antenna halfway aft on the top of the fuse- might take 30-40' of cable to connect the two. Using the same certified antenna for all certified installations, how does a manufacturer offer a unit that ALSO works in Katanas? By making sure the signal strength is sufficient for either installation, hence the minumum/maximum cable length for which the unit is guaranteed it will work. Really wanting to avoid wadding up an extra 15 feet of RG400, I called Garmin tech and they confirmed my theory. If I had shortened the cable to a convenient minimun length (about 3") the signal would have been too powerful for the receiver due to insufficient attenuation. OK, but how about shortening the cable and adding an attenuator, being on an experimental. The guy basically said fine, but you're on your own! After a couple of hours researching this option and coming up with no simple answers, I decided the path of least resistance was to do as instructed. I wadded up the extra 15 feet of RG400, and the sucker works just great. Still got a warranty, too! Win-win! I'd guess you have the same situation with the smaller GPS antennas(ae?) and that is why they come with all that extra cable. Just wad it up (like I did for the GRT & ADI GPS & XM cables) and be glad it ain't RG400! Mark **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? At 11:02 AM 5/12/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >I am building a Z-19 type electrical system and I have a question >about a switch configuration. I was planning to use a 2-10 / three >position to view voltage on different buses, depending > on the position: > > 1. E Bus voltage > 2. Main Battery Bus voltage > 3. Engine Battery Bus voltage > >I have a digital volt meter with simple +/- inputs. > > First, do you think this switch 2-10 will work or should I use > something else? > > I've played around with various wire combinations and a 2-10 switch but > have come up short (not a short, ha!). I just cannot seem to figure out > the right combination that provides the power feed to a single switch > position/combination. So that is the crux of my problem, the right wiring > for this switch (if possible). I know that all three PLUS leads from the > bus to switch to meter need to be isolated through the switch. I seem to > get one source isolated but then another switch position lights up two > power leads. > >The ground is common across all buses and batteries. The 2-10 would work but as others have noted, leaving a voltmeter connected to a battery bus for long periods of time may present a battery service readiness issue. If you use the 2-70 architecture (spring loaded to center) you can use the center position to read e-bus (which goes down with the master switches). The extremes are used to measure batteries and cannot be inadvertently left ON after the airplane is shut down. A miniature version of the 2-70 is a C&K 7215SYZQ available from Digikey at: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CKN1134-ND Wiring for this switch is illustrated at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/3-Ch_Voltmeter.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:05 PM PST US From: "r falstad" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 14 VDC Power Cord for Digital Video Camera? Folks, I have a new digital video camera (Canon FS-11) that I want to rig up in the cabin of my GlaStar for its test flight program. I intend to use a patch cord to connect my intercom with the "Mic In" function on the camera so I can dictate information to the video instead of having to write it down. I'd also like to power the camera from ship's power but Canon doesn't sell a "car cord" for this camera. The Canon tech rep says the camera is sensitive to its input voltage (8.4 VDC) from the output of the 110 VAC power converter. I don't want the extra wires and weight of an inverter -- I'd rather make up my own power cord to plug directly from ship's power to the camera. I can put a resistor in to drop the voltage but I'm worried about spikes and their possible adverse effects on the camera. Is there a circuit that would regulate the output close to 8.4 VDC with the expected input voltages from ship's power? (FYI, the compact power adapter is Canon P/N CA-590 and its input specs are 100 - 240 VAC at 50/60 Hz drawing 0.14 - 0.08 Amps with output at 8.4 VDC at 0.6 Amps. The tech rep wouldn't/couldn't tell me the tolerance on the input voltage to the camera.) Should I put in a smaller capacity (1 Amp) fuse instead of the 5 Amp fuse I've got in there now? Bob ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SMB connnectors on small coax (RG-174 et. als.) >>Second question: if I want to get rid of that much cable length, can I cut >>it somewhere in the middle, remove the unnecessary length, and reconnect the >>cable ends? If yes, how do I do it? >>Or is it better to forget the existing connector, cut the necessary length >>and use a new connector? In this case, where can I find these miniature >>connectors and is there a special crimper for these? I was just looking for materials and tools on another task an ran across these items that may be of interest to folks who need to re-work or fabricate cables with SMB Push-Ons. See SMB-Push-on male connectors at: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c261/P143.pdf and installation tool at: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c261/P279.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:30 PM PST US From: "Carl Morgan" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 14 VDC Power Cord for Digital Video Camera? Hi Bob, I've just been through this with ours, although we are a RV7A and I'm using older MV400i DV Canon tape technology. I actually made a small switched power supply board - the primary problem was finding the power cord plug, In the end I went lo-tech and used a larger battery! The battery lasts 2 hours, the tape media lasts 1.5 hours and most flight tests were less than an hour. I added a 3.5mm jack to jack which was connected to the stereo headphone lines from the Garmin 340 - although I did need to add a couple of resitors to attenuate the volume down a bit. The video recorder tended to auto-gain on the audio and struggled with over loading - but for the purposes needed it worked fine. The footage came out ok ( see http://www.youtube.com/zkvii ) and the learning aspect of reviewing your flying was much more benefical than I had expected - things like cockpit resourcing, radio calls, checks all can be critically reviewed later. Regards, Carl -- Carl Morgan - ZK-VII - RV 7A http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of r falstad Sent: 13 May 2008 15:10 To: AEROELECTRIC LIST Subject: AeroElectric-List: 14 VDC Power Cord for Digital Video Camera? Folks, I have a new digital video camera (Canon FS-11) that I want to rig up in the cabin of my GlaStar for its test flight program. I intend to use a patch cord to connect my intercom with the "Mic In" function on the camera so I can dictate information to the video instead of having to write it down. I'd also like to power the camera from ship's power but Canon doesn't sell a "car cord" for this camera. The Canon tech rep says the camera is sensitive to its input voltage (8.4 VDC) from the output of the 110 VAC power converter. I don't want the extra wires and weight of an inverter -- I'd rather make up my own power cord to plug directly from ship's power to the camera. I can put a resistor in to drop the voltage but I'm worried about spikes and their possible adverse effects on the camera. Is there a circuit that would regulate the output close to 8.4 VDC with the expected input voltages from ship's power? (FYI, the compact power adapter is Canon P/N CA-590 and its input specs are 100 - 240 VAC at 50/60 Hz drawing 0.14 - 0.08 Amps with output at 8.4 VDC at 0.6 Amps. The tech rep wouldn't/couldn't tell me the tolerance on the input voltage to the camera.) Should I put in a smaller capacity (1 Amp) fuse instead of the 5 Amp fuse I've got in there now? Bob Checked by AVG. 18:14 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.