Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:25 AM - Re: PMA-6000 intercom 28V install (Etienne Phillips)
2. 04:55 AM - Re: Fuse Block Locations (RALPH HOOVER)
3. 06:36 AM - Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for nav/strobe combo lights ()
4. 07:50 AM - Re: Fuse Block Locations (Jim McBurney)
5. 08:38 AM - Re: PMA-6000 intercom 28V install (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 03:17 PM - Re: Fuse Block Locations (Henry Trzeciakowski)
7. 05:09 PM - Dual redundant electrical system (Terry McMillan)
8. 06:42 PM - Re: PMA-6000 intercom 28V install (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:55 PM - Re: Fuse Block Locations (Peter Laurence)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: PMA-6000 intercom 28V install |
You're quite right Ralph, there is a noise concern. I doubt that the
noise would be of a value that would cause damage, so my suggestion
would be to try it, and if it doesn't work then replace it with a
resistor...
An alternative would be to use a switcher to get from 28V to 14V,
then use an analogue voltage regulator to go to 12V. Something like a
7812 chip (connection details are identical to that of the switcher)
would work quite nicely, and would only dissipate 2W at 1A, which is
still somewhat better than 15W!
You could also smooth the noise by putting a few (around 5) 100uF
capacitors in parallel, upstream and downstream of the switching
regulator. I suggest this rather than a two 500uF caps, as it will
handle a much wider range of noise frequencies, as well as offer a
degree of redundancy. They could even be wired into the loom at
regular intervals between the bus, switcher and intercom ;-)
I'm of a mindset that anything that gets hot will eventually cause
problems somewhere... Also in case of an alternator failure, the last
thing you want is for some minor component to start wasting precious
energy by converting it to heat!
I hope that this helps :-)
Etienne
On 09 May 2008, at 1:04 PM, RALPH HOOVER wrote:
> Etienne,
>
> I suspect that PS engineering is using an analog regulator for
> noise concerns (cost can figure in as well). Use care inserting a
> switcher without properly considering the noise concern. A switcher
> would certainly allow for a wide input voltage range without a lot
> of heat. Not a show stopper but a design challenge to address.
> This is just my take I have no knowledge of PS Engineering=92s design
> or the process and decisions they have taken to arrive at their
> design. I have used a switcher for my ANR power supply I=92ll soon
> find out if I have any issues!
>
> Ralph & Laura Hoover
> RV7A N527LR
Message 2
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Subject: | Fuse Block Locations |
Allen,
I found it on the internet, I will search my records and see if I
can find out where. I have lost a bunch of stuff due to a computer crash.
I will be on the road for a few days so I will look when I return.
It is a Bussman product 15710 series.
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen
Fulmer
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Block Locations
<afulmer@charter.net>
My favorite so far! And where, pray tell, did you get that beautiful fuse
block with cover? Surely must be automotive!
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Avionics and Electrical
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On
>>>Behalf Of RALPH
>>>HOOVER
>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:43 PM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Block Locations
>>>
>>>
>>>John,
>>> Here is yet another hinged option. This fuse block uses
>>>insert able
>>>crimped contacts (no fastons and one less electrical
>>>interface). It is also
>>>split 20 Main Buss, 8 Essential Buss. The two buses are tied
>>>by a schottky
>>>diode bolted to brass busses (the stuff in the center of the
>>>rear of the
>>>panel). The fuse panel swings down and forward from the
>>>front edge of the
>>>panel and all of the wiring is in the rear.
>>>
>>>Ralph & Laura Hoover
>>>RV7A N527LR
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>Behalf Of John
>>>Morgensen
>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 9:31 AM
>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Block Locations
>>>
>>><john@morgensen.com>
>>>
>>>I am seeking pictures and advice on fuse block locations,
>>>panel ground,
>>>firewall ground, etc. My project is an RV-9A using a Z-13/8
>>>architecture.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>John Morgensen
>>>775 771-5791
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Message 3
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Subject: | Use of 700-2-10 switch for nav/strobe combo lights |
Thanks Bob,
I have 2 more 2-10's on order from B & C. They are all new. Hopefully
it's not a bad batch.
Glenn
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use of 700-2-10 switch for nav/strobe
combo lights
--> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
At 03:30 PM 5/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>I am using the 2-10 as defined in the manual to turn on the nav lights
>in
>the center position and then add the strobe lights in the up position.
>Sounds simple enough. When I first turn on the nav lights, the strobe
>lights start blinking. I then add the strobe lights to the nav lights
and
>they work normally.
>
>After cycling the switch once, only the nav lights come on at the first
>position (desired) and I can add the strobe lights by moving the switch
to
>the top position. The behavior does not repeat itself unless the switch
is
>turned off for a period of time.
The only thing that can cause unexpected sequencing
is a faulty switch.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Fuse Block Locations |
Not building an RV, but worked on this same problem. I hinge-mounted a
panel above the copilot's feet, but to eliminate a separate fuseblock cover
I hinged mine at the firewall and Dzus'd it to the bottom flange of the
instru panel, with the blocks on the upper side of the panel. Easy access
on the ground, nothing to get bumped or kicked when closed.
do not archive
Blue skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
Augusta GA
90% done, 90% left
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: PMA-6000 intercom 28V install |
At 08:23 PM 5/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>PS Engineering s PMA-6000 intercom has the following note:
>
>
>To reduce the amount of heat dissipated in the audio selector panel, when
>used in a 28
>
>Volt aircraft, it is required that the 15-Ohm, 15-Watt dropping resistor
>(p/n 701-015-1501) be in-
>
>stalled in series with the power input.
>
>
>The install manual goes on to say failure to do so will generate
>unnecessary heat inside the unit and may void PS Engineering s warranty
>. Does anyone have experience installing one of these units in a 28V
>environment? Is the dropping resistor really required? The only reason I
>ask is the local radio shops don t seem to know much about it which makes
>me wonder if they ever used them. They all say they can order one but
>nobody has one in stock.
It is risky to disregard the words of the manufacturer's
installation manuals. It's also disappointing that the
manufacturers of this device did not craft a user-friendly
design.
The simplest thing to do is comply with the instructions.
The simplest way to do this is acquire a component like
this:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=FVTS10-15-ND
Note that it can be mounted to some handy, out of the
way surface on a long screw. The data sheet at:
http://www.heiresistors.com/PDF/FVT_FST20%20spec.pdf
tells us the hole through the middle of this device is
0.19" in diameter . . .
The drill versus threaded sizes chart at:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/tapsizes.html
says this is too small for a 10-32 screw but will
be just fine for an 8-32. The resistor data sheet suggests
we need one with 2" or so of over-all length. You'll
be cranking a hard force down against a ceramic tube.
Put a soft washer (some kind of rubber, plastic or even
two layers of paper from the box that comes with a tube
of toothpaste) between the end of the resistor and the
mounting surface. Tighten the screw down to finger
tight + 1 turn and spot the threads with some runny
super-glue to keep it from drifting off that pressure setting.
If your resistor comes with wires, clip them off.
Attach lead wires for intercom power to the resistor's
solder-tabs. Put double layer of heat-shrink over these
joints for vibration support.
This process has been used thousands of designs in
various vehicular products including airplanes. Simple,
lean, works as the manufacturer wishes and lasts a long
time.
BTW . . . the 15W rating is super conservative. The
intercom may draw 1A peak current but the AVERAGE
current will be much lower unless you're particularly
fond of playing Wagner at 100dB in the headphones.
Now, if you're REALLY wanting to make this more
complicated, you can purchase one of B&C's DIM3-28
dimmers at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218#dim3-28
and instead of installing the dimmer potentiometer,
you put the appropriate resistor between pins 1 and 3
to achieve a constant 14-volt output from the "dimmer".
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Fuse Block Locations |
John:
I'm also building an RV 9tip-up, but I did not go with a hinged panel. My
thought was that it should be very rare that I need to change fuses. If I
do, it will be on the ground and all I'd have to do is back under the
passanger side to change or troubleshoot.
When I mounted them, I didn't take any pictures before I removed my
sub-panel, but plan on it when I rivet my sub-panel on for the last time.
That said, I mounted the Main Bus and Diode and heatsink (25watt - B&C) on
the outboard side of the 745rib on the passanger side and used nutplates. I
mounted the Eudurance Bus, which will basically be my avionics bus, on the
inboard surface of the same rib. That way the e-bus will be just about 8 "
from my avionic's stack. The Battery Bus I mounted just below the brake
reservior and to the left of the battery. So'll I have a shor run to the
Master Battery COntactor and no unfused wires penetrating the firewall. I
purchased a fuse block with cover, so I wouldn't have issues with dirt,
grease, etc.
When I get pictures, I'll get them to you..
Henry
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Morgensen" <john@morgensen.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:30 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Block Locations
<john@morgensen.com>
>
> I am seeking pictures and advice on fuse block locations, panel ground,
> firewall ground, etc. My project is an RV-9A using a Z-13/8 architecture.
>
> Thanks,
> John Morgensen
> 775 771-5791
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Dual redundant electrical system |
This is my first time on the AeroElectric list server, though Ive been
lurking in the forums for some time. Im looking for comments/critiques on a
dual alternator dual battery system Ive designed. Right off the bat I have
to acknowledge the contributions made in this area by Bob Knucolls, Ive
read his book several times, and his ideas and philosophies have strongly
influenced my design. Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics has also been a
major source of information and inspiration.
My application is an all-electric plane, an RV7 Im building with
Aerosance FADEC and an all-glass cockpit (AFS3400, GRT Horizon HX, and
Trutrak EFIS). Im an electrical engineer with 22 years experience in a
large electrical power utility doing protection and control work. Duplicate
redundant protection systems for ultra high reliability are the core work in
this field. In 1988 I left to start my own company, designing and
manufacturing complex expensive microprocessor-based test equipment for use
in that field. Ive flown my own Cessna 172 since 1992. Im comfortable with
electricity and flying, but Im incorporating some non-standard ideas in
this design and would appreciate comments. My prime concern is
technical/safety aspects of the electrical system, but ergonomics is
something Ive also considered important, and feel is too often neglected in
the design of complex hardware systems.
Ive attached reduced size jpg files to respect the bandwidth guidelines,
based on the original dxf files, but will verbally describe the unusual
aspects as well. I can also make available the dxf files showing clearer
detail if anyone wants them.
The first component after the battery in most aircraft systems is the master
relay, which isolates both the starter solenoid and the feed to the main
and/or essential buses. Its usually a large heavy solenoid that must be
rated to carry starter current but normally carries only a small fraction of
that current, and it takes about an amp to keep it picked up. My design uses
a 60A ANL fuse at the battery, feeding a heavy-duty automotive 70A relay in
the cockpit next to the master switch and fuse bus. I expect the smaller
lighter relay will be more reliable than a $17 solenoid, especially because
it is in a cooler lower vibration location, plus it will draw only one-tenth
of the hold-in current which means more flying time in the event of battery
only operation. In my specific system this is not insignificant, the 2 amp
draw of two master relays would be ~10% of the typical main bus load.
In a conventional system, there is no high-speed protection of the several
feet of cable that can exist from the master relay through the firewall to
the buses, other than how fast the pilot can smell smoking insulation and
turn off the switch, by which time major damage can be done to the wiring
bundle. Once I discovered ANL fuses, I saw they could offer fast automatic
protection of this major cable run. There are some good photos at
http://www.highrf.com/gallery/Power-Grids of a Legacy power grid using ANL
fuses. In my system, because I require separate FADEC buses, Ive used an
additional fuse plus relay and fuse bus mounted at the battery, to eliminate
power wiring runs into and then back out of the cockpit, which cuts weight,
simplifies wiring, and minimizes wiring exposure to damage.
A reason given for the conventional system layout is that it can isolate a
stuck starter solenoid. In my experience however, properly sized starter
solenoids are far more likely to fail open than closed, especially since
there is often an additional solenoid internal to the starter, and in worst
case its an on-ground event.
The master relays are controlled by double pole 3 position rocker switches
with internal LED annunciators (see attached Switchgear.jpg). This allows
replacement of the traditional split control switch by providing a battery
only/alternator disabled configuration in the middle position, with the
normal configuration in the upper position. Illuminated rocker switches,
apart from being more visually appealing than the typical steel toggle
switch, can provide rapid day/night visual confirmation of true operational
status since the indicator is driven by the voltage of the actual controlled
circuit. Arranging the switches in close functional groupings also makes it
easy for pre-landing checks- just brush a finger across the tops of all the
switches to verify they are in the upper position.
>From there, power flows to the master bus via 60A Schottky diodes, which
generate much less heat than conventional diodes, reducing heat sink
requirements. There is only one main bus. I spent a lot of time trying to
decide what would go on an essential bus and what would not, plus
considering what kind of interlocks and switching would be necessary to
operate from the essential bus. In the end, given my dual batteries, dual
alternators, and better protection of the main battery feed lines, I
realized that a large essential bus is just as secure as a small one, and
not having to set up an emergency configuration during a high-stress
situation is a big advantage. Greg Richters comments about unnecessarily
complex emergency systems (page 7 of his Aircraft Wiring pdf) are spot on in
my opinion. Modern avionics and LED nav & panel lights dont draw a lot of
power, so normal daytime flight requirements are well under 20 amps for my
setup, which can be carried by the 20A backup alternator, never mind the
dual batteries. Many engine monitor systems, like the AFS3400, can monitor
alternator loading and bus voltage plus provide programmable high/low limit
alarms to these parameters, helping to keep track of loading during loss of
a power source.
I dont have an avionics master switch. I know this is controversial, and
apposed to common procedure, but here is my rationale:
1) Modern avionics are not susceptible to switching transients the way a lot
of earlier commercial gear was, especially during the early days of discrete
transistors. Additionally, though its not shown on my schematics, diode
suppression is fitted to all relays, something that wasnt usually done in
the past.
2) A single avionics master switch provides a single contingency failure
point for the avionics, after all the work to provide full redundancy.
3) Battery voltage drop during starting can cause some avionics to drop out,
but because of the dual diode isolation of the main bus, the avionics will
automatically be fed only from the normal-voltage alternate battery when the
main battery sags during start.
My fuel boost pump switch is a bit different in that there is an additional
(AUTO) position, controlled by the FADEC system. However, takeoff/landing
(MANUAL) position is up, consistent with the master switches, and as with
them LED annunciators provide additional status information.
There is no Pitot Heat control, this is a personal thing. Ive found that
after flying the same plane for a while I rarely look at airspeed, and my
setup gives me dual airspeed info plus AOA. Also, Im a VFR pilot. Doesnt
mean I wont decide to add it if I hear compelling reasons to.
Lighting is traditionally done with a row of toggle switches, one for every
circuit, and here again I have departed from tradition, but in this case
mainly with an eye to improved ergonomics. Details are on a separate drawing
(Lights.jpg). Note that the labels on the rotary switch on the above panel
layout jpg are one revision behind the schematic. I have shown just a 2-pole
rotary switch, as high-reliability sealed switches usually have fewer
configuration choices than cheaper switches. A single rotary switch, common
in automotive applications, makes more sense to me than individual toggles.
Just turn clockwise for more lights. The first position BEACON gives nav
lights and strobes. Because strobes can be disorienting in reduced
visibility they can be disabled via the STROBE ENABLE rocker switch, but the
LED nav lights are always on given their miniscule power draw. APPROACH as
shown energizes the landing lights in a wig-wag mode for high visibility,
though this wouldnt appeal to everyone. TAXI and LANDING are the last two
positions respectively. Taxi lights are on in both positions, but one
rotation counterclockwise on the ground eliminates the long-range landing
light to avoid glare to other pilots. The small rotary knob beside the
larger lighting switch controls dimming of cockpit lights. The STROBE ENABLE
rocker switch status LED gives instant visual confirmation of strobe status,
and the tight group of 3 controls in their separate location can be operated
by touch only, like the master and fuel boost controls. This is difficult to
accomplish in the traditional row of identical toggle switches which are
often mixed in with other identical toggle controls.
I dont have panel controls for trim or flaps, these are provided on the
pilot and copilot control stick handles. A junction box is provided as a
convenient local plug-in terminus for the control stick switches, trim &
flap servos and controller, radio control lines, and power/ground lines. I
have a schematic of this if anyone wants to see it.
My instrument panel will obviously have a lot fewer controls on it than is
now common. I know that banks of toggle switches look impressive to the
uninitiated, but realistically this doesnt contribute to safety by reducing
the pilots workload. Colour coding and grouping can help a little bit, but
it still leaves something to be desired for night operations and status
checks by touch while keeping focused outside the cockpit.
Thats about it for the design highlights. One thing not evident but also
important is, wherever possible, separate physical routing of the main and
alternate system wiring, including firewall penetrations. Ive tried to
envision how the system would handle a variety of failures and havent come
up yet with any realistic scenario that would bring the plane down before
you could get to a reasonable destination point. My only minor concern at
this point is how load sharing is controlled, since the secondary alternator
is just 20A. Ive talked to Bill Bainbridge at B&C, and he said that he sets
the voltage regulator about a volt lower on the alternate. This seems like a
lot to me, Im not sure what effect this has on keeping the alternate
battery in optimum condition. I couldnt find much in Bobs book or the
forums on this point.
Anyway, Im completely open to suggestions and/or criticism. Ego should
never get in the way of safety. Id appreciate anything in the way of
comment. Im now at the point of being almost ready to start wiring things
up, and need a reality check that what I intend to do makes sense.
Thanks, Terry McMillan
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: PMA-6000 intercom 28V install |
At 08:23 PM 5/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>PS Engineering s PMA-6000 intercom has the following note:
>
>
>To reduce the amount of heat dissipated in the audio selector panel, when
>used in a 28
>
>Volt aircraft, it is required that the 15-Ohm, 15-Watt dropping resistor
>(p/n 701-015-1501) be in-
>
>stalled in series with the power input.
>
>
>The install manual goes on to say failure to do so will generate
>unnecessary heat inside the unit and may void PS Engineering s warranty
>. Does anyone have experience installing one of these units in a 28V
>environment? Is the dropping resistor really required? The only reason I
>ask is the local radio shops don t seem to know much about it which makes
>me wonder if they ever used them. They all say they can order one but
>nobody has one in stock.
It is risky to disregard the words of the manufacturer's
installation manuals. It's also disappointing that the
manufacturers of this device did not craft a user-friendly
design.
The simplest thing to do is comply with the instructions.
The simplest way to do this is acquire a component like
this:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=FVTS10-15-ND
Note that it can be mounted to some handy, out of the
way surface on a long screw. The data sheet at:
http://www.heiresistors.com/PDF/FVT_FST20%20spec.pdf
tells us the hole through the middle of this device is
0.19" in diameter . . .
The drill versus threaded sizes chart at:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/tapsizes.html
says this is too small for a 10-32 screw but will
be just fine for an 8-32. The resistor data sheet suggests
we need one with 2" or so of over-all length. You'll
be cranking a hard force down against a ceramic tube.
Put a soft washer (some kind of rubber, plastic or even
two layers of paper from the box that comes with a tube
of toothpaste) between the end of the resistor and the
mounting surface. Tighten the screw down to finger
tight + 1 turn and spot the threads with some runny
super-glue to keep it from drifting off that pressure setting.
If your resistor comes with wires, clip them off.
Attach lead wires for intercom power to the resistor's
solder-tabs. Put double layer of heat-shrink over these
joints for vibration support.
This process has been used thousands of designs in
various vehicular products including airplanes. Simple,
lean, works as the manufacturer wishes and lasts a long
time.
BTW . . . the 15W rating is super conservative. The
intercom may draw 1A peak current but the AVERAGE
current will be much lower unless you're particularly
fond of playing Wagner at 100dB in the headphones.
Now, if you're REALLY wanting to make this more
complicated, you can purchase one of B&C's DIM3-28
dimmers at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218#dim3-28
and instead of installing the dimmer potentiometer,
you put the appropriate resistor between pins 1 and 3
to achieve a constant 14-volt output from the "dimmer".
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Fuse Block Locations |
Allen,
Try MIH Industries. That's where I purchased mine about a year ago.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dswartzendruber/
Peter Laurence
-----Original Message-----
My favorite so far! And where, pray tell, did you get that beautiful fuse
block with cover? Surely must be automotive!
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Avionics and Electrical
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