Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Schematic Review (Ken)
2. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Andrew Butler)
3. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Ron Shannon)
4. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Andrew Butler)
5. 08:19 AM - Re: Schematic Review (user9253)
6. 08:36 AM - Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how to wire? (mikef)
7. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Etienne Phillips)
8. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Ron Shannon)
9. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Andrew Butler)
10. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:27 PM - Re: Help for English translation (Gilles Thesee)
12. 03:41 PM - Re: battery tenders (skyking135)
13. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: Schematic Review (Dave Leikam)
14. 04:16 PM - Re: Help for English translation (Kevin Horton)
15. 07:29 PM - Re: battery tenders (earl_schroeder@juno.com)
16. 08:02 PM - Any legacy regulator gurus out there? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 08:06 PM - Contactor Locations (Les Kearney)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Schematic Review |
I am skeptical whether paralleling a double pole switch really helps
reliability. Mechanical switch failure would take out both poles. A
lightly loaded switch might suffer corrosion and wear issues at a
similar rate for both poles. One would not know if one pole failed
prematurely. For heavily loaded contacts perhaps the second pole would
help share the arc damage though??
Ken
user9253 wrote:
>
> Suggestion 1. An avionics master switch is controversial because it becomes a
single point failure for all of your avionics. Modern avionics are not supposed
to be affected by voltage spikes. If concerned about expensive avionics,
one could shut off individual units, not as convenient as a master switch but
safer. If you must have an avionics master, consider using a double pole switch
wired in parallel. If one half of the switch fails, the other half will carry
the load.
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
Hello,
At what level of load does an E-Bus become "heavy duty"?
Also, what is the purpose of the diode? I know what a diode does, but
what is its practical use in this instance?
Cheers,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 22:31:42 -0500
At 02:34 PM 5/18/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
> Bob:
>
> I'm going to install a "Heavy E-bus and use your architecture:
Bat-bus
> (14AWG) to 704-1 relay with S700-1-3(22AWG) switch coming off relay
and 14
> awg from relay to e-bus. I'm a little confused on how the Relay is
wired.
> I've printed the wiring picture of the Relay off the aeroelectric
website
> and it didn't help.
>
> The diode, via fastabs is wired or jumps the - to + terminal and
there are
> also 2 wires crimped to the same fasttabs. I'm assuming the black
goes to
> ground, but where does the one wired to the + terminal go to ??
>
> Also where does the "COM" wire and N.O. wire go?
>
> OR...keeping the question simple ---how do you wire the Relay
utilizing
> Heavy E-Bus architecture?
>
> Thanks
As shown in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z32K.pdf
The picture at:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/s704inst.jpg
shows how to get the diode leads into the same terminals
with the wires that go to ends of the relay coil . . . but
according to Z32K you'll need to drop two wires into the
COM terminal too.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
===========
===========
===========
===========
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> At what level of load does an E-Bus become "heavy duty"?
>
> Also, what is the purpose of the diode? I know what a diode does, but what
> is its practical use in this instance?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew.
>
The level at which an E-bus becomes "heavy duty" is not a precise point, but
certainly occurs when the E-bus is expected to carry loads that would strain
or exceed limits for a standalone toggle switch. Although the S700 series
switches are rated to 15A, you should probably be seriously considering a
separate relay whenever load approaches 10A, IMHO.
The diode keeps the E-bus from back feeding the Main bus when the E-bus
alternate feed (direct from battery or battery bus) is ON. If the E-bus were
allowed to back feed the Main bus, it would defeat the purpose of the E-bus,
which is rapid, positive reduction of load upon alternator failure. Use of a
diode instead of another switch eliminates the need to flip another switch
(i.e., reduces chance for error, also, see "heavy duty" discussion above).
Ron
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
Thanks Ron, though the diode I was referring is the 1N4001 across the
coil of the S704 relay. There is something I don't know, cause I don't
see it adding any functionality.......
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon"
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 07:07:20 -0700
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>
wrote:
Hello,
At what level of load does an E-Bus become "heavy duty"?
Also, what is the purpose of the diode? I know what a diode does,
but what is its practical use in this instance?
Cheers,
Andrew.
The level at which an E-bus becomes "heavy duty" is not a precise
point, but certainly occurs when the E-bus is expected to carry loads
that would strain or exceed limits for a standalone toggle switch.
Although the S700 series switches are rated to 15A, you should
probably be seriously considering a separate relay whenever load
approaches 10A, IMHO.
The diode keeps the E-bus from back feeding the Main bus when the
E-bus alternate feed (direct from battery or battery bus) is ON. If
the E-bus were allowed to back feed the Main bus, it would defeat the
purpose of the E-bus, which is rapid, positive reduction of load upon
alternator failure. Use of a diode instead of another switch
eliminates the need to flip another switch (i.e., reduces chance for
error, also, see "heavy duty" discussion above).
Ron
===========
========
===
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Schematic Review |
Hi Ken,
I agree with you that a mechanical failure will disable both poles of a double
pole switch. It has been my experience that the majority of switches fail because
of high resistance between contacts, especially in switches that are not
used frequently. I also agree that one would not know if only one pole failed.
But who cares as long as the load keeps working? I am not suggesting that
double pole switches be used in place of every single pole switch, only for essential
applications. The added cost and weight for a couple of DPST switches
is not much. Depending on one's panel, it could be a hassle replacing a switch.
I would want to delay doing that by using a more reliable switch. I believe
that a double pole switch wired in parallel has an extended life compared
to a single pole switch. Maybe someone has already done tests to prove or disprove
this theory.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183819#183819
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Use of 700-2-10 switch for Voltage Sense - how |
to wire?
Bob,
My bad, I mixed up the switch types. I think I will stick with the small Digikey
switch and be happy.
Thanks again,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183822#183822
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
It's called a fly-back diode.
The coil of a relay is a fairly sizeable inductor, which means that a
step-change in current is not really possible. What happens when the current
to the coil is removed, the "inertia" of the inductor will force a current
to continue flowing for a short while, generating large voltages and arcing
across switch contacts. The fly-back diode gives this current a path to flow
without interfering with the rest of the electrical system, and only comes
into play when the coil is de-energized.
For more info, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_diode
:-)
Etienne
2008/5/19 Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>:
> Thanks Ron, though the diode I was referring is the 1N4001 across the coil
> of the S704 relay. There is something I don't know, cause I don't see it
> adding any functionality.......
>
> Andrew.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Shannon"
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
> Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 07:07:20 -0700
>
> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> At what level of load does an E-Bus become "heavy duty"?
>>
>> Also, what is the purpose of the diode? I know what a diode does, but what
>> is its practical use in this instance?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Andrew.
>>
>
>
> The level at which an E-bus becomes "heavy duty" is not a precise point,
> but certainly occurs when the E-bus is expected to carry loads that would
> strain or exceed limits for a standalone toggle switch. Although the S700
> series switches are rated to 15A, you should probably be seriously
> considering a separate relay whenever load approaches 10A, IMHO.
>
> The diode keeps the E-bus from back feeding the Main bus when the E-bus
> alternate feed (direct from battery or battery bus) is ON. If the E-bus were
> allowed to back feed the Main bus, it would defeat the purpose of the E-bus,
> which is rapid, positive reduction of load upon alternator failure. Use of a
> diode instead of another switch eliminates the need to flip another switch
> (i.e., reduces chance for error, also, see "heavy duty" discussion above).
>
> Ron
>
> *
>
> ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listics.com
> .matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>
wrote:
> Thanks Ron, though the diode I was referring is the 1N4001 across the coil
> of the S704 relay. There is something I don't know, cause I don't see it
> adding any functionality.......
>
> Andrew.
>
Ooops! So much for unwarranted assumptions.
As for the diode across the coil, see
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
Ron
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
Perfect! Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon"
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:43:42 -0700
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>
wrote:
Thanks Ron, though the diode I was referring is the 1N4001 across
the coil of the S704 relay. There is something I don't know,
cause I don't see it adding any functionality.......
Andrew.
Ooops! So much for unwarranted assumptions.
As for the diode across the coil, see
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
Ron
===========
========
===
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
At 01:11 PM 5/19/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>At what level of load does an E-Bus become "heavy duty"?
The e-bus was born of a time when many if not most
builders could plan on and implement an endurance
load of 5A or less. The rule-of-thumb for maximum
protection level of an always hot wire in TC aircraft
is 5A . . . so the idea of taking a 5A fused feeder
off the battery bus to supply an e-bus through a panel
mounted switch was well within the parameters of
accepted practice in TC aircraft.
As folks piled more stuff on the e-bus, 5A feeders
wouldn't cut it any more so it became a tribute
to accepted practice to add a mini battery contactor
at the battery bus to provide a local control point for
the e-bus alternate feed path.
From a reliability perspective I really like the
idea of staying with a toggle switch. Further,
given that a 7A fuse is on the order of 5-10 times
faster than a 5A breaker, it seems a reasonable
tribute to accepted practice to say that anything
over a 7A FUSED alternate feed path is "heavy duty"
and justifies the complexity of an additional
relay. 7A or less can be handled with a toggle
switch.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Help for English translation |
Mickey Coggins a crit :
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> Hi Gilles,
>
> There is a MGL representative in France - perhaps he has already
> contacted the DGAC.
>
> http://www.stratomaster.eu/
>
> If the document you need translated is going to the boys in South
> Africa, I'd say it is quite understandable. To make sure the
> translation is accurate, it would help to have a link to the French
> version.
>
Mickey and all,
Thanks to all who responded, on-list and off-list.
I added a link to the original French version at the bottom of the page
http://contrails.free.fr/translate.php
I understand that the translation is for the use of the French MGL
representative.
Thanks again,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: battery tenders |
I have one of the 42292 units and measured the output voltage on my
particular unit to be around 12.7 volts, noload. It was only getting the
battery up to about 12.3 volts; not enough to keep a good charge on a
battery. So, being the curious one that I am, I popped open the cover to
see if I could figure out how to adjust the output voltage. I found a
spot on the circuit board for a varistor (VR1) that had a 55ohm resistor
soldered in that postion. I figured that must adjust the output voltage.
I simply replaced the 55ohm resistor with a 22ohm one I had on hand.
That boosted the ouptut to a more respectable 13.2 volts. It still will
only charge up to about 12.9 volts which is better than the 12.3 is was
reaching before. I think I will adjust the resistor again to see if I
can squeeze out a little more performance.
Quality control is not high on the list of priorities with Harbor
Freight. You get what you pay for.
db
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Schematic Review |
I flew an Archer for a few years that had two avionics masters side by side
wired parallel. Toggles will usually fail when turned on or off. If one
failed (never did), you knew it and the other was available.
Dave Leikam
#40496 N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic Review
>
> I am skeptical whether paralleling a double pole switch really helps
> reliability. Mechanical switch failure would take out both poles. A
> lightly loaded switch might suffer corrosion and wear issues at a similar
> rate for both poles. One would not know if one pole failed prematurely.
> For heavily loaded contacts perhaps the second pole would help share the
> arc damage though??
> Ken
>
> user9253 wrote:
>> <fran5sew@banyanol.com>
>>
>> Suggestion 1. An avionics master switch is controversial because it
>> becomes a single point failure for all of your avionics. Modern avionics
>> are not supposed to be affected by voltage spikes. If concerned about
>> expensive avionics, one could shut off individual units, not as
>> convenient as a master switch but safer. If you must have an avionics
>> master, consider using a double pole switch wired in parallel. If one
>> half of the switch fails, the other half will carry the load.
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Help for English translation |
On 19 May 2008, at 17:25, Gilles Thesee wrote:
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Mickey Coggins a crit :
>> matronics@rv8.ch>
>>
>> Hi Gilles,
>>
>> There is a MGL representative in France - perhaps he has already
>> contacted the DGAC.
>>
>> http://www.stratomaster.eu/
>>
>> If the document you need translated is going to the boys in South
>> Africa, I'd say it is quite understandable. To make sure the
>> translation is accurate, it would help to have a link to the
>> French version.
>>
>
> Mickey and all,
>
> Thanks to all who responded, on-list and off-list.
> I added a link to the original French version at the bottom of the
> page
> http://contrails.free.fr/translate.php
>
> I understand that the translation is for the use of the French MGL
> representative.
>
Many elements of these requirements appear to be lifted directly from
CS 23, the European equivalent to FAR 23. You can find the accepted
English wording for some sections by looking at FAR 23.1301, 23.1309,
23.1311, 23.1322, etc. Available on the FAA web site.
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (FInal Assembly)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: battery tenders |
Hi db,
The older 42292 [or whatever (the previous generation)]did have a variable resister
on the circuit board. Nearly every one needed some adjustment as I have
a dozen or so.
I purchased a minimum order of 100 ohm pots to install in the newer units. I adjust
them for 13.8 open circuit.
I've repaired six or so [mine and others] as the common failure is the transformer
wire disconnects where it attaches to the plug that plugs into the 110VAC.
A sharp knife will separate the plastic housing around the transformer providing
access. I thought originally that trying to start an engine with the unit
connected would melt the solder at that joint but I'm not sure.
For the money they are hard to beat but as some say, you get what you pay for..
Earl
-- skyking135 wrote:
<
I have one of the 42292 units and measured the output voltage on my
particular unit to be around 12.7 volts, noload. It was only getting the
battery up to about 12.3 volts; not enough to keep a good charge on a
battery. So, being the curious one that I am, I popped open the cover to
see if I could figure out how to adjust the output voltage. I found a
spot on the circuit board for a varistor (VR1) that had a 55ohm resistor
soldered in that postion. I figured that must adjust the output voltage.
I simply replaced the 55ohm resistor with a 22ohm one I had on hand.
That boosted the ouptut to a more respectable 13.2 volts. It still will
only charge up to about 12.9 volts which is better than the 12.3 is was
reaching before. I think I will adjust the resistor again to see if I
can squeeze out a little more performance.
Quality control is not high on the list of priorities with Harbor
Freight. You get what you pay for.
db
Message 16
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Subject: | Any legacy regulator gurus out there? |
I received some pictures from a reader who is looking for an
adjustment procedure for a Delco-Remy generator regulator.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/12VN7E_Delco-Remy_4.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/12VN7E_Delco-Remy_3.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/12VN7E_Delco-Remy_2.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/12VN7E_Delco-Remy_1.jpg
I've never seen an electro-mechanical regulator that was this
sophisticated. It appears to have airgap adjustments as well
as spring tension adjustments for both the V-reg and I-lim
relays.
I'm wondering if anyone on this IS or KNOWS someone WHO IS
familiar adjustment of these devices. I'm afraid that the
"offical" procedure will require test equipment common to
a generator/regulator overhaul shop. Unless I can find
data specific to this device (I think the 12VN7E
numbers on the base plate are a part number) I'm going
to recommend that he not mess with anything other than
the tension spring on the voltage regulator which can
be adjusted with the engine running and a light load
on the system.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 17
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Subject: | Contactor Locations |
Hi
I am trying to plan my RV10 electrical system and have a question for the
electrical mavens. That is, how far from avionics should battery contactors
be? I am looking at mounting my batteries in the sub panel area and would
like to co-locate the contactors in the same area. Access is not an issue
but I am concerned about possible interference with the avionics. I may end
up locating the starter contactor on the same area as well. Would this be a
problem?
Cheers
Les Kearney
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