---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/24/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:35 AM - Re: Previous Master solonoid clicking (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:10 AM - Re: Coil Suppression Techniques. (Robert Feldtman) 3. 06:37 AM - Re: Coil Suppression Techniques. (Harley) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Previous Master solonoid clicking (Bill Bradburry) 5. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Z-19RB - review and simplify? (Sam Hoskins) 6. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Z-19RB - review and simplify? (Sam Hoskins) 7. 10:59 AM - Re: Z-19 hypothetical question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:10 AM - Re: Previous Master solonoid clicking (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 11:25 AM - Re: Z-19 hypothetical question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 04:48 PM - memory versus tape (LarryMcFarland) 11. 06:03 PM - Re: memory versus tape (earl_schroeder@juno.com) 12. 07:47 PM - Re: memory versus tape (Scott Freeman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking At 11:18 AM 5/23/2008 -0400, you wrote: > > >I left out that my plane is wired closely to the Z-19 architecture. >Also the low voltage module is one that I built using one of Bob's boards >from the old model. > >Bill B > > >A while back, I discussed a clicking sound that I heard after I turned the >alternator on when the engine was running. >Today I discovered that my low voltage module was not working and when I >removed it, the clicking went away. How long has the system been in operation? Has it worked as expected for any period of time and is now behaving differntly? >I tested the module by putting +9V on pin 4, grounded pin 5, and looked for >the LED to come on and also for a ground to show up on pin 1. No light, no >ground. Must have crapped out??!! Send it back for evaluation/repair. You pay the postage to me, I'll pay it back to you. >I also noticed that when the module was disconnected, If I had the main >battery set to "Alternator", and the engine battery set to "ON", I got about >13.4V. If I flipped the engine battery switch to "Auto", the voltage went >up to about 14.6V. >I was at a loss as to why this would be. I didn't try it with the engine >battery set to "OFF", so I don't know what would have happened if I did. > >Does anyone have any ideas as to what was happening to cause the clicking if >the module caused it, and why the voltage increase? I at first thought..I >am turning one of the batteries off, so the voltage went up, but then I >thought...why wouldn't the voltage regulator bring it back down in that >case. A reasonable hypothesis suggests that the engine battery was discharged and was pulling the alternator down while it was huffing to push energy back into the battery. Putting the LVWarn/ABMM switch in the AUTO position with the module disconnected is the same as turning that battery OFF which would relieve the alternator of that re-charge load. You didn't mention what RPM the engine was running while these observations were made. It seems likely that the bus voltage would come raise while charging the battery if RPMs were high enough for alternator to develop full output. Suggest you put battery maintainers on both batteries. Let's evaluate/repair the LVWarn/ABMM module as needed before we carry the study further. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:20 AM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coil Suppression Techniques. Cable TV is wasted bandwidth (except for cool channels like military channel, national geographic, NASCAR etc..) Otherwise I think cable TV kills Betz cells.. (that'll send folks heading for wikipedpia!) bobf On 5/23/08, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > At 04:16 PM 5/22/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > Hi Bob, on behalf of myself and many others I'm sure I'd like to thank you >> for - first of all, your restraint, and of course your informative posts >> that make it so easy for the rest of us to click on the links of your >> experiments. >> >> I joined this list probably two years ago and a great deal of what was >> discussed was over my head (and still is!) ... I received the daily emails >> and for the longest time would check out the subject titles and more often >> than not delete the email. Over time I've 'gotten up to speed', read your >> book, and spent the time to learn (whether the particular subject concerned >> my airplane or not). >> > > That's what Richard Feynman describes as "The > Pleasure of Finding Things Out". Virtually every > classroom we all sat in for the first time offered > tons of information sometimes accompanied with > lucid explanation and even real-life connections. > It is not uncommon when "getting a drink from the > fire hose" that certain simple-ideas don't catch > on or fit into the current library of life experiences. > > But as you've alluded, there is an osmosis > effect . . . tiny bits of the big drink soak > in. At some point in the future, a sort of > epiphany may take place when one realizes that > "Yeah, I KNOW how that works". > > It still happens to me regularly. > >> >> It's all too easy to "gold plate the spec" to cover ALL conceivable >> conditions that a particular component may see whether applicable or not. >> It is of GREAT value to me that you repeatedly base your responses on OBAM >> aircraft. Meaning... if age/environmental factors, etc is going to kill my >> component before I or my designed system does then thats exactly what I need >> to know. I have always found your posts and advice to be practical in the >> real world (where most of us live with our little homebuilt airplanes) and >> considerate of my time & money. >> > > To me, being an engineer was the ideal connection > between pure physics and people. I was exceedingly > fortunate in my career to have some good teachers > AND a charter to make my ideas play in the marketplace. > I.e, offer competitive value that was attractive > for performance, price and after-the-sale service. > VERY few of my contemporaries have enjoyed so broad > an experience. > > >> I continue to learn from all the contributors and contributions to the >> site. Best Regards to all and my apologies for feeling the need to 'waste' >> bandwidth! ;) >> > > Forgive me but that "wasted bandwidth" canard is > really raises the ol' blood pressure. It seems most > often used by individuals who complain to other > individuals about the use of a communications tool > that is nobody's property . . . a term almost never > used in a exchange that quests for understanding of > simple ideas. > > If one wants to bemoan "wasted bandwidth", just > hit any cable channel for an hour and make notes on > what one learns that adds any value to their lives. > I.e., how did the $time$ spent today make one's life > any more enjoyable or confident tomorrow? > > I view $time$ spent here as an opportunity to > fine tune my own skills as well as encouragement > to broaden my own understanding. Folks on the List > are not always aware of the $time$ spent to firm > up a foundation for an reply before I post it. > You folks are as useful to me as I hope I am to > all of you. $Time$ and 'bandwidth' used in that > endeavor is never a waste. > > Everyone on the List has an opportunity to be both > student and teacher. It has nothing to do with > the total experience of either individual. Any > instance where understanding supported by repeatable > experiment is exchanged, there is opportunity > for growth for everyone who chooses to > participate. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:12 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coil Suppression Techniques. Right...thanks Bob...now I have to look up a web page full of more terms and words! Excerpt from Wikipedia: "Betz cells have one apical dendrite typical to pyramidal neurons, they have more primary dendritic shafts, and these do not leave the soma only at basal angles but rather branch out from almost any point asymmetrically." Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert Feldtman wrote: > Cable TV is wasted bandwidth (except for cool channels like military > channel, national geographic, NASCAR etc..) Otherwise I think cable TV > kills Betz cells.. (that'll send folks heading for wikipedpia!) > > bobf > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:00 AM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking Bob, Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components. You don't owe me any free repair! The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground for probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 8:32 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking --> At 11:18 AM 5/23/2008 -0400, you wrote: > > >I left out that my plane is wired closely to the Z-19 architecture. >Also the low voltage module is one that I built using one of Bob's >boards from the old model. > >Bill B > > >A while back, I discussed a clicking sound that I heard after I turned >the alternator on when the engine was running. >Today I discovered that my low voltage module was not working and when >I removed it, the clicking went away. How long has the system been in operation? Has it worked as expected for any period of time and is now behaving differntly? >I tested the module by putting +9V on pin 4, grounded pin 5, and looked >for the LED to come on and also for a ground to show up on pin 1. No >light, no ground. Must have crapped out??!! Send it back for evaluation/repair. You pay the postage to me, I'll pay it back to you. >I also noticed that when the module was disconnected, If I had the main >battery set to "Alternator", and the engine battery set to "ON", I got >about 13.4V. If I flipped the engine battery switch to "Auto", the >voltage went up to about 14.6V. >I was at a loss as to why this would be. I didn't try it with the >engine battery set to "OFF", so I don't know what would have happened if I did. > >Does anyone have any ideas as to what was happening to cause the >clicking if the module caused it, and why the voltage increase? I at >first thought..I am turning one of the batteries off, so the voltage >went up, but then I thought...why wouldn't the voltage regulator bring >it back down in that case. A reasonable hypothesis suggests that the engine battery was discharged and was pulling the alternator down while it was huffing to push energy back into the battery. Putting the LVWarn/ABMM switch in the AUTO position with the module disconnected is the same as turning that battery OFF which would relieve the alternator of that re-charge load. You didn't mention what RPM the engine was running while these observations were made. It seems likely that the bus voltage would come raise while charging the battery if RPMs were high enough for alternator to develop full output. Suggest you put battery maintainers on both batteries. Let's evaluate/repair the LVWarn/ABMM module as needed before we carry the study further. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19RB - review and simplify? I believe the D180 does have warnings, but since I already own Bob's LV warning gizmo, I thought I'd go ahead and use it anyway. Thanks for the input. Sam On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:03 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > > Do any of your electronic displays have voltage monitoring and alarm > features? If so, you would not have to use that low voltage module. > > I would use fuses. They have several advantages. You will not be > servicing equipment very often and you can pull a fuse. > > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184595#184595 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:27 AM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19RB - review and simplify? I believe the D180 does have warnings, but since I already own Bob's LV warning gizmo, I thought I'd go ahead and use it anyway. Thanks for the input. Sam On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:03 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > > Do any of your electronic displays have voltage monitoring and alarm > features? If so, you would not have to use that low voltage module. > > I would use fuses. They have several advantages. You will not be > servicing equipment very often and you can pull a fuse. > > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184595#184595 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 hypothetical question At 05:42 PM 5/23/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Here is a hypothetical question for you electrical gurus. A pilot is >flying on trip in a plane wired according to schematic Z-19. Shortly >after takeoff the main battery contactor fails open. The pilot does not >notice anything wrong because the engine battery contactor is closed and >the alternator is still functioning. Eventually the main battery >discharges due to loads on the main battery bus, and the pilot notices >some things not working. He knows there is a problem but does not know >the cause. Just to be safe, he closes the Endurance-Bus Alternate-Feed >switch. The question is, does the charging current blow a fuse? (either >one or both fuses) The current path is from the Main Power Distribution >Bus, 7A fuse, diode, Endurance Bus, Alternate-Feed switch, fuse, Main >Battery Bus, to the main battery. EXCELLENT question! It's that "just to be safe" thinking that causes joe-pilot to stubs his toe. Every design feature of a system is (or at least should be) put in place for a specific purpose. In this case, the E-bus alternate feed switch is intended to provide an alternative power for e-bus powered electro-whizzies WHEN the main bus voltage falls too low to be a practical source of energy. 99.9+ percent of the time this is because the alternator is no longer supporting ship's loads for what ever reason. >If the answer to the above question is yes, then everything on the >Endurance Bus might not work for the remainder of the flight. I think the >best solution is to increase the wire and fuse sizes in the above >circuit. What size is required? Other possible solutions such as another >diode or relay create additional problems. Controls in our aircraft have beneficial effects that are addressed as part of a constellation of design goals. Some controls are not totally free of misadventure or even hazard for having been operated at an inappropriate time or inappropriate way. The only time I would close the e-bus alternate feed switch is after the low voltage warning light has informed me of a need for completing the flight battery(ies) only. Referring to . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19m_1.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19m_2.pdf In the hypothetical you posed, electro-whizzies to first start spinning down would be the clock and the #2 fuel pump. Also, the engine would be complaining if the current configuration of switches had the engine running from the main battery instead of the engine battery. In this case, the first thing to do is bring the engine's alternative power switch ON to see if the engine gets happier. This is the hazard-free thing to do irrespective of how the engine was being powered before the "event". Once the engine is happy, use the voltmeter to explore the condition of the two batteries. One would quickly discover that for whatever reason, one of the batteries is low. Now is not the time to initiate trouble shooting procedures with switch-flipitis and non-piloting thought processes. Save all that fun stuff until parked on the ramp. Now, suppose a contactor fails during flight but the battery does not fall so low that electro-whizzies start complaining. It's conceivable that the airplane gets parked with an undiscovered latent failure. This is why the pre-flight check for dual battery airplanes is to turn battery switches on one at a time before starting the engine and comparing similarity of voltage readings for the two batteries under the same load. This will catch the latent failure before next flight. This brings up the rationale for separate normal and alternative engine power control switches as opposed to the multi-pole, two-position switches suggested by other designers. This hypothetical illustrates the feature of being able to ADD the alternative engine source to the current engine source . . . I.e. disturb as few controls in the present configuration as possible while resolving the appropriate plan-B for comfortable termination of flight. It also eliminates having mechanical failure of the single switch taking the engine power down. More than one dark-n-stormy night story has related situations where pilot fiddle-itis made things progressively worse. I had this conversation with a client just yesterday when the question was asked, "what happens if the warning light comes on, the pilot pulls the breaker and resets it, the warning light goes out and he tries to operate the system AGAIN and further aggravates the out-of-rig condition?" My answer was, "If the pilot survives to tell you about it, yank his job if not also his ticket". If the POH or the check-pilot that approved him for the aircraft doesn't cover the proper procedure for responding to that particular warning, then yank HIS job and/or ticket." The point is that carefully crafted systems need to be supported not just with good systems and human factors engineering. The teachers charged with insuring skill and understanding on the part of future users are just as critical as the designers. More folks die out of apathy/ignorance than of systems failure. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking At 10:31 AM 5/24/2008 -0400, you wrote: > > >Bob, >Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please >remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components. You >don't owe me any free repair! But I do owe you a "grade" on your efforts with a goal of honing your skills. It also affords me a data point which may have future value. I've fielded a ton of incoming cabbages and tomatoes for allegedly faulty design and/or advice . . . all based on situations about which I was honorably skeptical but unable to defend for lack of hands-on experience. This was in spite of life-time, money-back guarantees so I suspect the allegations were bogus. But my warranty extends to both ideas and product so we're doing each other a favor here my friend. >The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground for >probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet. Understand. Let's see if we can figure out what's going on. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 hypothetical question P.S. A product under development . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf has two channels of LOW Voltage warning. The second specifically intended to watch the aux battery for failure of contactor or failure of pilot to close said contactor. I don't think I'd put a low voltage warning in just for that purpose but in this case, it was about a 7% increase in parts count to add the feature to an existing design. Just some additional food for thought. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:13 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: AeroElectric-List: memory versus tape Hi Guys, Im wondering if anyone has plugged in a small voice recorder for ATC communications. The latest requirements have ATC providing total taxi instructions. That guidance has the tower rapidly describing a 7-point guidance that used to be 2 or 3-points. Its always been required to do a read-back to ATC in its entirety. Every ATC controller has his own creatively unique delivery that also complicates the pickup and read-back. Has anyone found a better way of dealing with this excessive mental-bandwidth aside from just more practice or a tape recorder? We need a better idea here,,,,,,,,,,,, Thanks, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:01 PM PST US From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: memory versus tape Hi Larry, I had a 'solid state' device sold by someone at Oshkosh years ago wired in but I could not figure how I was going to read back the recording short of just playing it to ATC. Somehow, I didn't think they would be happy with that solution.. As time passed, I figured out that they always deliver clearances in the exact order so I printed some address labels with blanks to insert the items that change.. worked for me. Now if ATC has no standard phraseology for taxi clearances, I would constantly ask for progressive instructions. I'll bet if a lot would, standardization would soon follow. :) Maybe this isn't a 'better idea' but my best shot. Earl -- LarryMcFarland wrote: Hi Guys, Im wondering if anyone has plugged in a small voice recorder for ATC communications. The latest requirements have ATC providing total taxi instructions. That guidance has the tower rapidly describing a 7-point guidance that used to be 2 or 3-points. Its always been required to do a read-back to ATC in its entirety. Every ATC controller has his own creatively unique delivery that also complicates the pickup and read-back. Has anyone found a better way of dealing with this excessive mental-bandwidth aside from just more practice or a tape recorder? We need a better idea here,,,,,,,,,,,, Thanks, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:36 PM PST US From: "Scott Freeman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: memory versus tape Look at the PS-Engineering PMA-4000 audio panel with voice record. It has a lot of functionality price and takes up little panel space. ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 7:44 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: memory versus tape > > > Hi Guys, > > Im wondering if anyone has plugged in a small voice recorder for ATC > communications. The latest requirements have ATC providing total taxi > instructions. That guidance has the tower rapidly describing a 7-point > guidance that used to be 2 or 3-points. Its always been required to do a > read-back to ATC in its entirety. Every ATC controller has his own > creatively unique delivery that also complicates the pickup and read-back. > Has anyone found a better way of dealing with this excessive > mental-bandwidth aside from just more practice or a tape recorder? > > We need a better idea here,,,,,,,,,,,, > > Thanks, > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.