---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/26/08: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:37 AM - Faraday Cage (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 2. 06:03 AM - Re: Faraday Cage (Robert Feldtman) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: memory versus tape (Eric M. Jones) 4. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: memory versus tape (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 07:36 AM - OV protection - internally regulated alternator (Mark Means) 6. 08:31 AM - Re: Faraday Cage (Henador Titzoff) 7. 08:31 AM - Re: Faraday Cage (Henador Titzoff) 8. 08:34 AM - Re: Z-19 hypothetical question (user9253) 9. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: memory versus tape (Henador Titzoff) 10. 09:04 AM - Re: Faraday Cage (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 11. 09:38 AM - Re: Faraday Cage (Bruce Gray) 12. 09:40 AM - Re: Faraday Cage (John Cox) 13. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: memory versus tape (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 01:45 PM - Re: Faraday Cage (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 15. 01:48 PM - Re: E-Bus Diode & Fuseable LInk Question (Henry Trzeciakowski) 16. 02:00 PM - Faraday Cage (MaxNr@aol.com) 17. 02:04 PM - Re: Faraday Cage (Walter Fellows) 18. 02:47 PM - Re: Faraday Cage (rampil) 19. 02:47 PM - Re: Faraday Cage (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 20. 03:43 PM - Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot (Sam Hoskins) 21. 03:43 PM - Re: Faraday Cage (Ron Quillin) 22. 04:06 PM - Re: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot (Charlie England) 23. 06:43 PM - Question about wire sizes (Les Kearney) 24. 06:46 PM - Re: Faraday Cage (MaxNr@aol.com) 25. 07:21 PM - Re: Question about wire sizes (Dale Ensing) 26. 08:17 PM - Re: Question about wire sizes (RALPH HOOVER) 27. 09:27 PM - Re: Question about wire sizes (Les Kearney) 28. 11:20 PM - Re: Question about wire sizes (Robert McCallum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:12 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:44 AM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage myth bobf W5RF On 5/26/08, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: > > > I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage > in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive > material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. > > > Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are > any regulations, can you please point me to them. > > > Thanks for your input. > > > Roger > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: memory versus tape From: "Eric M. Jones" Don't try to look cool and pretend you know what you're doing if you are uncertain of the instructions, just say "Request Progressive Taxi Instructions." Progressive being the key word. Remember in all cases YOU are the customer who is to be served, not the ground controller. Remember "Confess, Communicate, Comply." always trumps, "Hold my beer...Watch this!" -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184849#184849 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:16 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: memory versus tape Good Morning Eric, The statement "Remember in all cases YOU are the customer who is to be served, not the ground controller" was the mantra used by the last two female leaders of the FAA. An order has recently been issued at the direction of Congressman Oberstar, that the FAA's business is not to be conducted in that manner. Instead, they are to consider that their mission is to issue violations. While the air traffic controllers are not, and most do not want to be, issuers of violations, they are in the same boat as we pilots when it comes to anything which jeopardize their employment. The new attitude stinks and it comes not only from congress, but from the current white house. Be careful out there. In addition to our needing to avoid physical danger, we need to be aware that the FAA is definitely not there to help. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/26/2008 8:29:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, emjones@charter.net writes: Don't try to look cool and pretend you know what you're doing if you are uncertain of the instructions, just say "Request Progressive Taxi Instructions." Progressive being the key word. Remember in all cases YOU are the customer who is to be served, not the ground controller. Remember "Confess, Communicate, Comply." always trumps, "Hold my beer...Watch this!" **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:36 AM PST US From: "Mark Means" Subject: AeroElectric-List: OV protection - internally regulated alternator I have been building an automotive conversion Velocity for many years now and have gone through the OV protection is good (I actually have an OV module I built and tested) to the "no longer recommended nor do we recommend internally regulated alternators". I am running my engine successfully, have Eaton contactors to isolate redundant batteries as well as the B lead which is controllable via CB. I also have the monster fuse in the B lead. I searched the archives for a couple hours and have seen much discussion on nuisance OV breaker trips and alternator problems. My questions are: - what are the odds of a runaway and is this usually a slow increase in voltage or rapid? - what is the problem with the OV protection with the internally regulated alternators if the module works as designed and pulls the alternator offline in a runaway situation? - if the alternative is electronic monitoring and pulling the alternator offline, is there a downside to this other than slow reflexes? - what are the foreseeable consequences of delays of pulling it offline? Thanks for any help sorting this out. Mark Means ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:13 AM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Roger, I am willing to bet that you did NOT hear that from an FAA guy. I have never read that in the FARs. Just because I've never read it, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; however, I 've never heard it before, and there are many aircraft manufacturers out there like Cirrus, Diamond, etc. who have never it either. My experimental airplane is a composite fiberglass/foam airplane, and it's never heard of it. I will be very surprised if anyone on this email list will be able to quote a FAR that says so. Sounds like a good myth in the making to me. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- From: ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:33:19 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:14 AM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Roger, I am willing to bet that you did NOT hear that from an FAA guy. I have never read that in the FARs. Just because I've never read it, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; however, I 've never heard it before, and there are many aircraft manufacturers out there like Cirrus, Diamond, etc. who have never it either. My experimental airplane is a composite fiberglass/foam airplane, and it's never heard of it. I will be very surprised if anyone on this email list will be able to quote a FAR that says so. Sounds like a good myth in the making to me. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- From: ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:33:19 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:16 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 hypothetical question From: "user9253" Hey Bob, were you referring to me as joe-pilot? LOL Ok, to keep me from stubbing my toe, how about the attached schematic? It features circuit breakers within reach of the pilot, dual alternate feed for the essential bus, relays to isolate power from the cockpit, one power wire between engine compartment and essential bus with fusible links to protect it. Any suggestions, comments, or improvements are welcome. Joe Gores -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184867#184867 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aeroelectric_z_19aa1_500.gif ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:55 AM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: memory versus tape Eric, It is so nice that the FAA is so customer oriented. This is why the following saying exists: "Hi, we're from the FAA, and we're here to help." If you haven't heard it, it's just a matter of time. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- From: Eric M. Jones Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:23:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: memory versus tape Don't try to look cool and pretend you know what you're doing if you are uncertain of the instructions, just say "Request Progressive Taxi Instructions." Progressive being the key word. Remember in all cases YOU are the customer who is to be served, not the ground controller. Remember "Confess, Communicate, Comply." always trumps, "Hold my beer...Watch this!" -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:11 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Henador, I am not surprised!! I had never heard of this until a couple of days ago, and I have been around for quite some time Roger Roger, I am willing to bet that you did NOT hear that from an FAA guy. I have never read that in the FARs. Just because I've never read it, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; however, I 've never heard it before, and there are many aircraft manufacturers out there like Cirrus, Diamond, etc. who have never it either. My experimental airplane is a composite fiberglass/foam airplane, and it's never heard of it. I will be very surprised if anyone on this email list will be able to quote a FAR that says so. Sounds like a good myth in the making to me. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:54 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Yes and no. In the certified world there are more hurdles needed to be jumped than in our experimental neighborhood. I believe that in order for a certified airplane to be IFR legal, it must be able to take a lightning strike with minimal damage. The e-glass manufacturers do this by imbedding a copper/aluminum mesh in the skin of the aircraft. While this might be a 'Faraday Cage', it's purpose is to provide an electrical path for a lightning strike. This is only an issue with glass airframes. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:01 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Henador, I am not surprised!! I had never heard of this until a couple of days ago, and I have been around for quite some time Roger Roger, I am willing to bet that you did NOT hear that from an FAA guy. I have never read that in the FARs. Just because I've never read it, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; however, I 've never heard it before, and there are many aircraft manufacturers out there like Cirrus, Diamond, etc. who have never it either. My experimental airplane is a composite fiberglass/foam airplane, and it's never heard of it. I will be very surprised if anyone on this email list will be able to quote a FAR that says so. Sounds like a good myth in the making to me. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage From: "John Cox" Time to add St Elmo's Fire to the discussion and the principals of an Air Capacitor. All aircraft should address an effective path to discharge Static buildup. It is when they arc through a control surface hinge or bearing that it will get your attention. That is long after it exceeds the aeroelectric discussion pool. I have some great pictures of composite surfaces that were fried for lack of a dissipator wick and an effective circuit path. I think it's a myth like flying with aluminum foil on your head. John Cox From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:45 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: memory versus tape Good Morning Henador, You may think you are being facetious, but there has been a major change in direction at the FAA. They are now directed by their superiors to be the enemy. Most FAA personal are just as a enamored of aviation as we are, but their jobs depend on doing what they are told. When the head of the aviation subcommittee tells them to be bad guys, what do you think they are going to do? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/26/2008 10:43:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, henador_titzoff@yahoo.com writes: Eric, It is so nice that the FAA is so customer oriented. This is why the following saying exists: "Hi, we're from the FAA, and we're here to help." If you haven't heard it, it's just a matter of time. Henador Titzof **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:57 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage In a message dated 05/26/2008 11:06:18 AM Central Daylight Time, mrspudandcompany@verizon.net writes: I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. >>> Seems I recall the Beech Starship had copper mesh in its skin for this reason, which was another co$tly headache towards eventual certification. Mark do not archive **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:35 PM PST US From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Diode & Fuseable LInk Question Bob: I purchased from B & C their E-Bus diode with 15 watt heatsink and installed between Main Bus & E-Bus per your Z diagram. What I'm confused about is that their wiring diagram has 1 wire originating from a fast-tab on the diode to the E-Bus - NO PROBLEM SO FAR: then 2 wires from 2 seperate fast-tabs joining together then proceeding to a Circuit Breaker then to the Main Bus....Sooooo I'm a little confused about the Circuit Breaker and why there are 2 attach points on the diode in the first place.!!! None of your Z diagrams show a CB between the Main & E Bus, and why 2 attach points on the diode joining forces? Second questions:: Im installing a Heavy E-Bus architecture, per Z-32. Currently my E-Bus load is around 12 amps...architecture is: 18g F-link at E-Bus---14 awg---S704-1 relay---14 awg---10amp fuse at Battery Bus. According to B & C, fuseable links are for low power, 10 amps or less.....so should I eliminate the fuseable link and directly wire to #10 stud on E-Bus OR wire to a 10 or 15 amp fuse on the E-bus - and increase the Battery Bus from 10 amp to 15 amp? Thanks Henry ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:25 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage It sure looks like they intended that when they wrote FAR Part 23. Go to the FAA home page and click on FAR 23.867 (c) (2). Bob Dingley ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:56 PM PST US From: "Walter Fellows" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage This seems to be a requirement for certified aircraft, for example the DA 20 is not certified for IFR flight and does not have the cage but the DA 40 is and does have the cage. The Columbia had to add the cage in adapting the ES to the certified Columbia. The farady cage for composite aircraft is created with a copper or aluminum mesh in the outer layer of the shells, electrically bonding the parts of the exterior together (such as aileron to wing skin), adding a ground plane and electrically isolating the control tubes and cables from the cockpit. You can read more about it in Martin Hollmann's book Advanced Aircraft Design. On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 5:33 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: > > > I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage > in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive > material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. > > > Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are > any regulations, can you please point me to them. > > > Thanks for your input. > > > Roger > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:11 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Faraday Cage From: "rampil" Metal mesh in the wing skin does not constitute a faraday cage. Different purpose and different design -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184928#184928 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:11 PM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Part 23 deals with certified aircraft. Experimental aircraft, such as the wooden one, which I am building, are not required to meet these specs. That being said, it is not a bad idea to try to build an aircraft that is as safe as possible. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MaxNr@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage It sure looks like they intended that when they wrote FAR Part 23. Go to the FAA home page and click on FAR 23.867 (c) (2). Bob Dingley ************** ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:52 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage From: Ron Quillin At 13:56 5/26/2008, you wrote: >It sure looks like they intended that when they wrote FAR Part 23. >Go to the FAA home page and click on FAR 23.867 (c) (2). > >Bob Dingley Is "that" a Faraday Cage you refer to? I fly a certified AC that is also certified for IFR. TC is A18CE. It's tube and fabric. Sure no cage around me. Hide details for Sec. 23.867 Sec. 23.867 Part 23 AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES Subpart D--Design and Construction Electrical Bonding and Lightning Protection Sec. 23.867 [Electrical bonding and protection against lightning and static electricity.] (a) The airplane must be protected against catastrophic effects from lightning. (b) For metallic components, compliance with paragraph (a) of this section may be shown by-- (1) Bonding the components properly to the airframe; or (2) Designing the components so that a strike will not endanger the airplane. (c) For non-metallic components, compliance with paragraph (a) of this section may be shown by-- (1) Designing the components to minimize the effect of a strike; or (2) Incorporating acceptable means of diverting the resulting electrical current so as not to endanger the airplane. Sure don't see any implied cage here, just bonding of metallic components if there are any, unless you care to argue (c)(2) can be satisfied with a cage. Acceptable? Humm... That will vary by ACO. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:45 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot Sam Hoskins wrote: > FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build > autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720 > > > If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. > > Sorry for the shameless plug. > > Sam Hoskins > Murphysboro, IL Hey Sam, I actually have one those that came out of a T-18 (wrecked in a storm) and there's another in a homebuilt of pre-WW-II Philippine origin here on my home field. Unfortunately, I can't find the docs for it. How much to scan & email the docs? Charlie ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:57 PM PST US From: Les Kearney Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:06 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Faraday Cage Re: "Faraday cages" on Bellanca aircraft. It does in fact have a tube structure around the entire fuselage and all components are bonded to each other. Same as Pipers and Stinsons. It also was grandfathered by being first certified under CAR 3 pre WW2. Like wise the DC3 does not comply with FAR 25 either. Grandfathered and still legal. Ya'll be careful around those t-storms in wooden airplanes and avoid them by 20 miles. I used to fly a lot of hard IFR in Sikorsky 76's and took a few hits. Its forward fuselage (with fuel tanks) is a composite structure. Certified under FAR 29. The stroke travels back through the semi monocoque metal aft fuselage, through the composite hor stabilizer and out through the static wicks. All composite structures have that mesh stuff imbedded. All structures are bonded to each other. If not, the radome or the f.g. tail fairing would be blown to little pieces. Old Bob ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:54 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM To: Aerolectric List Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235 720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:04 PM PST US From: "RALPH HOOVER" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, It gets even more confusing when you look at the plating options available and the insulation grip range. The best bet is have the wire specs available when you collect the part numbers so you can get all three parameters correct. It's not hard just requires close attention. In the CPC series there are also multiple contact gauges, the III+ pins are probably what you will use. In CPC shells there are also reverse shells (pin numbers mirrored) be carefull. Ralph Hoover _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:05 PM PST US From: Les Kearney Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Dale To clarify, why couldn't I use the 14-18ga pins for the 18ga wire? Do the pins fit a specific gauge or a range of gauges? If not a range, then what does 14-18ga mean versus 16-18ga? Thanks Les _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: May-26-08 8:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:10 PM PST US From: "Robert McCallum" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les; The pins fit wires within the range marked on them. 16-18 ga pins fit wires of 16 or 18 (or 17 if you can find it) gauge. A 14-18 ga pin would fit 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires. (also 15 or 17 if you could find them) (Wire gauges normally change by 2's hence 14, 16, 18 etc, but in rare special cases sometimes the intermediate sizes are made. You'll likely never find any so don't worry about it.) Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:21 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Dale To clarify, why couldn't I use the 14-18ga pins for the 18ga wire? Do the pins fit a specific gauge or a range of gauges? If not a range, then what does 14-18ga mean versus 16-18ga? Thanks Les ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: May-26-08 8:19 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM To: Aerolectric List Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235 720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. 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