Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:34 AM - Re: Batteries (Sam Hoskins)
2. 06:26 AM - Re: Batteries (simon@synchronousdesign.com)
3. 07:49 AM - Re: Alternator switch/breaker wiring (Terry McMillan)
4. 07:56 AM - Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 09:37 AM - Re: Batteries (Ernest Christley)
6. 09:54 AM - Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice (Ernest Christley)
7. 11:03 AM - Re: Batteries (Mike Kimball)
8. 11:32 AM - Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice (Bill Boyd)
9. 02:12 PM - Re: Previous Master solonoid clicking (Bill Bradburry)
10. 02:14 PM - Re: Previous Master solonoid clicking (Bill Bradburry)
11. 03:35 PM - Garmin SL 30 install manual ? (Gilles Thesee)
12. 07:03 PM - Re: Batteries (fiveonepw@aol.com)
13. 07:22 PM - Re: Garmin SL 30 install manual ? (RALPH HOOVER)
14. 08:47 PM - Re: Batteries (Bill Bradburry)
Message 1
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I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.
Sam
On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones <djones@northboone.net> wrote:
> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20
> 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs.
> $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an
> Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the
> same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power
> and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size
> overall compared with each other and the other types including the Odyssey.
> And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you have
> problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return
> headaches.
>
> Jonsey
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 2
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And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if
the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though,
because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM
batteries.
Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when
they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries,
which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were
military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two
of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last
month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate
AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L
for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this
application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of
circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the
advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered.
Simon in Florida
> I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.
>
> Sam
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones <djones@northboone.net>
> wrote:
>
>> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example
>> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL
>> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk
>> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH
>> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately
>> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in
>> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall
>> compared with each other and the other types including the
>> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing
>> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person.
>> No internet return headaches.
>>
>> Jonsey
Message 3
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| Subject: | Alternator switch/breaker wiring |
>From a safety viewpoint, you should locate the breaker as close to the
source of power as possible. The field circuit does not generate power at
the alternator end, it absorbs power from the bus,i.e. the source is the
bus. The breaker is necessary both because the wiring from the bus to the
field must be protected against inadvertent faults to ground anywhere along
its length, but because some overvoltage protection circuits intentionally
short the field to ground to take the alternator causing the overvoltage off
line as quickly as possible.
Terry McMillan
>From: Steve Johnson <rvbuilder927@yahoo.com>
>To: "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator switch/breaker wiring
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:17:14 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I am in the process of wiring my Plane Power alternator and I am wondering
>of it matters in what sequence the 5 amp breaker and the switch are
>placed. I currently have the field wire from the alternator connected
>to the breaker, then the breaker to the switch (DPDT), then to the bus, as
>I believe is shown on drawing Z-11
>
> ALT FIELD-BREAKER-SWITCH-BUS
>
> The Plane Power schematic shows the field wire connected to the
>switch, then the switch to the breaker, then to the bus.
>
> ALT FIELD-SWITCH-BREAKER-BUS
>
>Does it matter from a practical and safety standpoint?
>
>Thanks.
>Ward Morris
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice |
I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME..
In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also p
ut the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L. Tompkins, P.E.
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:52 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a pe
rmanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output when
ever it is rotating.
Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a heat
sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not delivering
current to the endurance bus.
So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than th
e SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the
engine at cruise rpm?
If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is
producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an elec
trical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source (at
an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20?
Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance bu
s, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential.
Thanks in advance to those who are more knowledgeable than this electricall
y challenged mech. engr.
Larry
Message 5
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Dennis Jones wrote:
> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20 18AH
270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95.
Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey.
That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and
approximately the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25%
in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall compared with
each other and the other types including the Odyssey. And they are AGM type.
Drive across town buy the thing and if you have problems you go back and talk
to them in person. No internet return headaches.
>
> Jonsey
>
Some simple physics here. There are very few tricks in building a
lead-acid battery. You don't get more AH or CCA for free. About the
only way to increase either value without increasing the battery size is
to somehow get more contact area between the lead and the acid. The
only way to accomplish that is to squeeze both the lead plate and the
mat between them thinner. CCA can theoretically be negatively effected
if the lead gets to thin, but that won't realistically ever happen in a
battery robust enough to be marketable. Unless Interstate has some
packaging techniques that support and protect the lead in their
batteries, they will necessarily be less robust.
Personally, I would buy the Interstate, mount it to the airplane with
shock absorbing materials (sit it on a rubber mat?), and expect to
change it every two years.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice |
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME..
>
> In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also put
the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for.
>
> Frank
>
> ________________________________
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L. Tompkins, P.E.
> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:52 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
>
> Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a permanent
magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output whenever
it is rotating.
>
> Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a heat sink
for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not delivering current
to the endurance bus.
>
There are switching regulators available which run cool, and don't waste
power. Whether the extra cost and complexity is worth saving 100W of
electricity is debatable.
> So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than the
SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the engine
at cruise rpm?
>
Maybe. Maybe not. You have some magnets (that are basically rated to
last forever) that are spinning around a coil of wire, pushing the
electrons out one side. You can get more electrons out by increasing
the strength of the pusher, or increasing the number of pushees. The
SD-20 could have more coils of wires, or magnets, or larger magnets, or
some combination of all three. If there were just more coils of wire,
then the magnets are being asked to push harder, and their expected life
would drop from "infinity" to "infinity minus something".
> If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is producing
output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an electrical
noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source (at an earlier
time in its life cycle) than the SD-20?
>
>
It would actually make LESS noise. The only way for it to "wear" would
be for the permanent magnets to loose their magnetism. At that point,
the generator isn't able to push as many electrons and the noise comes
from the electrons getting pushed around.
> Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance bus,
I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential.
>
Then the 8A version is your best bet.
Message 7
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FWIW I am a big fan of my 925 Odyssey. Small in size and a really cool
custom tray for it to sit in. Sits way in back of my Super Rebel and spins
my 10:1 Chevy 350 with no problem even after months of sitting without
receiving a charge. It's about 4, maybe 5 years old now. No sign of
degradation.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Christley
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries
<echristley@nc.rr.com>
Dennis Jones wrote:
> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20
18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs.
$132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an
Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the
same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power
and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size
overall compared with each other and the other types including the Odyssey.
And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you have
problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return
headaches.
>
> Jonsey
>
Some simple physics here. There are very few tricks in building a
lead-acid battery. You don't get more AH or CCA for free. About the
only way to increase either value without increasing the battery size is
to somehow get more contact area between the lead and the acid. The
only way to accomplish that is to squeeze both the lead plate and the
mat between them thinner. CCA can theoretically be negatively effected
if the lead gets to thin, but that won't realistically ever happen in a
battery robust enough to be marketable. Unless Interstate has some
packaging techniques that support and protect the lead in their
batteries, they will necessarily be less robust.
Personally, I would buy the Interstate, mount it to the airplane with
shock absorbing materials (sit it on a rubber mat?), and expect to
change it every two years.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice |
Are we sure the regulator sinks the "unused" wattage from the generator? If
so, it's putting a full-output load on the engine at all times, robbing
perhaps 1/4 hp - minor but not good. I would have thought the generator
with no electrical load is not drawing mechanical power from the engine, but
what do I know?!
I have an SD-8 sitting on the shelf since SnF 2006 that I have never gotten
around to installing. Maybe I should let it go to the highest reasonable
offer and buy another if/when I ever get to finishing my fully redundant
all-glass IFR panel for the RV. Ditto for the Garmin 340 audio panel - it's
not seeing much use on the shelf either.
-Bill B
On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
> echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
> Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>> I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME..
>>
>> In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also
>> put the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L.
>> Tompkins, P.E.
>> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:52 PM
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
>>
>> Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a
>> permanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output
>> whenever it is rotating.
>> Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a
>> heat sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not
>> delivering current to the endurance bus.
>>
>>
> There are switching regulators available which run cool, and don't waste
> power. Whether the extra cost and complexity is worth saving 100W of
> electricity is debatable.
>
>> So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than
>> the SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the
>> engine at cruise rpm?
>>
>>
> Maybe. Maybe not. You have some magnets (that are basically rated to last
> forever) that are spinning around a coil of wire, pushing the electrons out
> one side. You can get more electrons out by increasing the strength of the
> pusher, or increasing the number of pushees. The SD-20 could have more
> coils of wires, or magnets, or larger magnets, or some combination of all
> three. If there were just more coils of wire, then the magnets are being
> asked to push harder, and their expected life would drop from "infinity" to
> "infinity minus something".
>
>> If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is
>> producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an
>> electrical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source
>> (at an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20?
>>
>>
>>
> It would actually make LESS noise. The only way for it to "wear" would be
> for the permanent magnets to loose their magnetism. At that point, the
> generator isn't able to push as many electrons and the noise comes from the
> electrons getting pushed around.
>
>> Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance
>> bus, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential.
>>
>>
> Then the 8A version is your best bet.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Previous Master solonoid clicking |
I sent the board in the other day. It should be waiting when you return
from your vacation. It will be interesting to see what you find.
Thanks,
Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking
--> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
At 10:31 AM 5/24/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
>
>Bob,
>Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please
>remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components.
>You don't owe me any free repair!
But I do owe you a "grade" on your efforts with
a goal of honing your skills. It also affords me a data
point which may have future value.
I've fielded a ton of incoming cabbages and tomatoes
for allegedly faulty design and/or advice . . . all
based on situations about which I was honorably skeptical
but unable to defend for lack of hands-on experience.
This was in spite of life-time, money-back guarantees
so I suspect the allegations were bogus. But my warranty
extends to both ideas and product so we're doing each
other a favor here my friend.
>The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground
>for probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet.
Understand. Let's see if we can figure out
what's going on.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Previous Master solonoid clicking |
I sent the board in the other day. It should be waiting when you return
from your vacation. It will be interesting to see what you find.
Thanks,
Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking
--> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
At 10:31 AM 5/24/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
>
>Bob,
>Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please
>remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components.
>You don't owe me any free repair!
But I do owe you a "grade" on your efforts with
a goal of honing your skills. It also affords me a data
point which may have future value.
I've fielded a ton of incoming cabbages and tomatoes
for allegedly faulty design and/or advice . . . all
based on situations about which I was honorably skeptical
but unable to defend for lack of hands-on experience.
This was in spite of life-time, money-back guarantees
so I suspect the allegations were bogus. But my warranty
extends to both ideas and product so we're doing each
other a favor here my friend.
>The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground
>for probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet.
Understand. Let's see if we can figure out
what's going on.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Garmin SL 30 install manual ? |
Hi all,
Anyone happen to have a Garmin SL 30 Nav-Comm installation manual ?
Any input appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 12
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I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.
>>>
Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over the issue
and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for almost
five years, currently about $80 bux/pop:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND
Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45...
>From The PossumWorks in TN,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: simon@synchronousdesign.com
Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries
And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if
the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though,
because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM
batteries.
Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when
they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries,
which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were
military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two
of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last
month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate
AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L
for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this
application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of
circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the
advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered.
Simon in Florida
> I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.
>
> Sam
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones <djones@northboone.net>
> wrote:
>
>> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example
>> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL
>> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk
>> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH
>> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately
>> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in
>> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall
>> compared with each other and the other types including the
>> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing
>> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person.
>> No internet return headaches.
>>
>> Jonsey
Message 13
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| Subject: | Garmin SL 30 install manual ? |
Gilles,
Look here! Mike Stewart has the SL30 manual under downloads.
http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/index.htm
Ralph & Laura Hoover
RV7A N527LR It's going to the airport Saturday for final assembly :)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:21 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin SL 30 install manual ?
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi all,
Anyone happen to have a Garmin SL 30 Nav-Comm installation manual ?
Any input appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 14
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This is the battery that I am using.. I plan to replace one of them each
year, so max age will be two years.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=522-1014-ND
Sadly, the first battery I bought was about $25, the second about $35, and
now they are $55!
Bill B
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries
I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.
>>>
Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over
the issue and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for
almost five years, currently about $80 bux/pop:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND
Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45...
>From The PossumWorks in TN,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: simon@synchronousdesign.com
Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries
And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if
the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though,
because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM
batteries.
Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when
they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries,
which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were
military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two
of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last
month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate
AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L
for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this
application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of
circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the
advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered.
Simon in Florida
> I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.
>
> Sam
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones <djones@northboone.net>
> wrote:
>
>> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example
>> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL
>> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk
>> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH
>> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately
>> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in
>> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall
>> compared with each other and the other types including the
>> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing
>> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person.
>> No internet return headaches.
>>
>> Jonsey
_____
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