Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:39 AM - questions about "filter" capacitors (D Wysong)
2. 05:47 AM - Re: CD ROM Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:39 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/05/08 (Lee Logan)
4. 07:12 AM - EIS and Vans Fuel Guage (Edward Christian)
5. 07:25 AM - Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
7. 08:28 AM - Re: questions about "filter" capacitors (rampil)
8. 09:39 AM - Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:45 AM - Re: DIY autopilot data package (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 11:53 AM - Re: Heavy E-Bus & Fuseable Link (Henry Trzeciakowski)
11. 01:33 PM - Re: questions about "filter" capacitors (hdwysong)
12. 03:24 PM - Re: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage (Carlos Trigo)
13. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use ()
14. 08:56 PM - Re: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
15. 09:01 PM - Re: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
Message 1
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| Subject: | questions about "filter" capacitors |
Hello folks,
I'm wondering what drives the sizing/requirements for the caps hanging
off of our alternator feeds. I am comparing a few different
architectures and would like to understand the subtleties associated
with each.
The first architecture is a Rotax 914 w/ standard 14V PM generator.
Suggestions from other Rotax 914'ers led me to conservatively derate
my 14V budget to ~12A to keep the Rotax (Ducati) regulator/rectifier
healthy. Per Rotax recommendations (and supported by the Z drawings),
I have a 25V 22,000uFcap installed. This satisfies the "rule of
thumb" from the list archives of "1,000 uF per 1A" for PM alternators,
and plots of the 14V bus voltage during engine runs indicate that all
is well with this cap installed. The downsides are that the cap is
huge (physical size of a mini Coke can) and I have blindly applied a
rule of thumb to size the cap. It works... but I would like to
understand why. Why 1,000 uF instead of 100 uF or 5,000 uF?
The second architecture is my stock C150M with a 60A Ford alternator.
After noting the size of the cap installed on the Rotax I began
wondering how I could've overlooked such a monster on my 150? Turns
out I didn't. The Cessna schematics/SB's identified a couple of noise
filters (square box on the firewall, small can with a pigtail on the
alternator) as well as a small axial capacitor behind the instrument
panel. Do these numerous iterative "filters" on the 150 provide the
cumulative equivalent of a single "1,000 uF per 1A" capacitor on my
OBAM bird?
Is the "1,000 uF per 1A" rule of thumb for the PM generators even
applicable to the 150? Am I missing a corollary that defines an upper
limit where adding more Farads offers little/no return on investment?
If I had a 100A alternator would I really NEED to shop for a 100,000
uF cap or would a smaller cap suffice?
Thanks for your time/assistance/patience. I look forward to the
education and clearing the haze.
D
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CD ROM Question |
At 08:52 PM 6/5/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>I downloaded the CD ROM from the AeroElectric website, but I am unable to
>open the various drawings. I was told that the CD ROM should also contain
>.PDF copies of the drawings, but I cannot find them. Am I missing
>something? Does the purchased version contain more than the downloadable
>version? I am trying to find examples of wirebooks and wire labeling examples.
The .dwg files are opened with AutoCAD or one of its
compatible brothers like TurboCAD V7 or higher.
The downloadable CD is the same as the purchased one
which is the same as the website itself. CAD drawings
are found at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/
the .pdf versions are at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
and both directories cited above are mirrored on the
CD
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/05/08 |
Do I understand the mechanics of the SD-8 correctly? It sits on the vacuum
pad and the domed (orange) part spins out in the open at 4,000 rpm or so?
I've never seen any recommendations to keep anything away from it---does it
have sufficient electromagnetic potential that it would draw
unsecured/inadequately secured ferrous objects toward it? Obviously, you'd
have everything under the cowl carefully secured; I'm thinking it might be a
different story if something got loose or a foreign object of some kind made
its way to the rear accessory case.
Am I missing something here?
Lee...
Message 4
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| Subject: | EIS and Vans Fuel Guage |
Has anyone done this?
I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float
senders on RV-6
I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel
guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming
directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS)
through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender.
Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the
resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in?
Help,
Ed
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft |
At 09:35 AM 6/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>Do I understand the mechanics of the SD-8 correctly? It sits on the
>vacuum pad and the domed (orange) part spins out in the open at 4,000 rpm
>or so?
Correct.
>I've never seen any recommendations to keep anything away from it--
Seems self-evident that one should provide suitable clearance between
the alternator and other parts. You don't want things "rubbing"
on stuff that doesn't spin either.
> . . .does it have sufficient electromagnetic potential that it would
> draw unsecured/inadequately secured ferrous objects toward it?
No
> Obviously, you'd have everything under the cowl carefully secured; I'm
> thinking it might be a different story if something got loose or a
> foreign object of some kind made its way to the rear accessory case.
Get out your crowbar, hammer and hatchet and
deduce exactly what item under the cowl that
you could force into contact with the alternator.
>
>Am I missing something here?
Don't think so. Like spinning propellers, fan blades,
chains and sprockets, flight control cables/pulleys,
alternator belts/pulleys etc . . . numerous moving
components in airplanes are easily integrated into
the flight system with rudimentary considerations for
clearances and security of adjacent hardware.
There are no "gotchas" lurking under any rocks at this
stage of the product's service history. There are
thousands of these things in service with a track
record that goes back over 20 years.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft |
I agree...with a little bit of thought its just a non issue..About the only thing
I have against the SD8 is the price..:)
Other than that this thing is bullet proof
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:18 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft
--> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
At 09:35 AM 6/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>Do I understand the mechanics of the SD-8 correctly? It sits on the
>vacuum pad and the domed (orange) part spins out in the open at 4,000
>rpm or so?
Correct.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: questions about "filter" capacitors |
Look at it this way:
Forget what you hear here in terms of rules of thumb.
22 mFd is what the factory decrees, so that is what a responsible
builder should used unless there is strong evidence to the contrary.
The value of the cap is determined by estimating the resistance of the
driven system and then the desired tau (time constant) which will
give the desired degree of smoothing to the DC output. If you don't put
a cap in, your systems will get rectified AC as the supply waveform,
not the desired DC. (Quite possibly all modern avionics, lights, and LEDS
would run quite happily on rectified AC, maybe not electronic ignition
modules - caveat lector!!)
There is no electrical max limit on the cap value, the limit is of size
and weight
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186507#186507
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: SD-8 integration onto aircraft |
>
>I agree...with a little bit of thought its just a non issue..
>About the only thing I have against the SD8 is the price..:)
One is always free to build their own . . .
Almost daily I find myself stacking DIY project
$time$ against a decision to "get it bought and
move on". More often than not the economics of
$time$ demonstrate that I cannot build it for
less than I can buy it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | re: DIY autopilot data package |
A few days ago I offered to scan and publish the data
package on the DIY autopilot projects by Doug Garner
et. als.
I thumbed through the pile of paper in the folder a few
minutes ago and decided that I don't have the time to
do it soon . . . and I judge that few individuals in
the OBAM aircraft community would get much value from
it. In any case, one could contact EAA for reprints on
Garner articles that would cover his efforts quite well.
I put the file folder back into the cabinet. Instead,
I'll try to get the traces on effectiveness of various
coil-suppression technologies done this afternoon.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy E-Bus & Fuseable Link |
Bob:
Im installing a Heavy E-Bus architecture, per Z-32.
Currently my E-Bus load is around 13amps...architecture is:
18g F-link at E-Bus---14 awg---S704-1 relay---14 awg---10amp fuse at Battery
Bus.
According to B & C, fuseable links are for low power, 10 amps or less.....so
should I eliminate the fuseable link and directly wire my 14 g wire to #10
stud on E-Bus
OR wire to a 10 or 15 amp fuse on the E-bus - and increase the Battery Bus
Fuse from 10 amp to 15 amp?
What I'm carring on my E-Bus is basically my Avionic's Panel: 340 audio, 430
nav/com gps,330 Transponder and 106 Indicator - Amp draw is approx:7 amps,
but in TRANSMIT Mode, I'm pulling an extra 6 AMPs for a total of about 13
amps.
Any suggestions appreciated, or should I wire per Z-32, since the extra 6
Amp in transmit mode is interminent and will only spike to 13 or so amps
periodically.
Thanks
Henry
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: questions about "filter" capacitors |
rampil wrote:
> 22 mFd is what the factory decrees, so that is what a responsible builder should
used unless there is strong evidence to the contrary.
Understood. The 22000 uFd cap is installed and will certainly remain on the 914
per Rotax schematics. Rather than wanting to fix what isn't broken I'm simply
trying to understand where these "magic" numbers come from.
rampil wrote:
> The value of the cap is determined by estimating the resistance of the driven
system and then the desired tau (time constant) which will give the desired degree
of smoothing to the DC output. If you don't put a cap in, your systems will
get rectified AC as the supply waveform, not the desired DC.
Makes sense, Ira. Thanks. Somewhere there exists an "allowable ripple" spec and,
given the expected/typical loads on a system, the cap is sized accordingly
to satisfy the spec.
Would it be practical for us to estimate the system resistance alongside the power
budget to derive an educated guess for how big the B-lead cap should be?
Seems like a science project with little return on investment (time/effort), but
perhaps it will provide a reasonable ballpark #?
Alternatively, is there any harm in simply hooking things up WITHOUT a B-lead cap
and measuring how "noisy" the bus is before I stick a filter cap in the system?
This is more of a build-test-fix approach but at least I would have data
to substantiate the size (and weight and cost) of the cap chosen.
D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186564#186564
Message 12
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| Subject: | EIS and Vans Fuel Guage |
Edward
I did it, but since it was many moons ago, I can't remember how.
As soon as I get to my scratched notes, I'll try to recover that information
for you.
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian
> Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
>
> <edchristian@knology.net>
>
> Has anyone done this?
>
> I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float
> senders on RV-6
>
> I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel
> guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming
> directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS)
> through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender.
>
> Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the
> resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in?
>
> Help,
>
> Ed
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Bridge Diodes use |
Wow, thanks - of course that is nice to know information before you buy
the B & C 25A
Diode and heat-sink which conservatively carries 12.5 A continuous.
I know, read b4 you buy.
Ok, then I need to go bigger. Can I melt the diode off the B & C
heatsink to re-use?
Looks like BR's are relatively cheap.
All about Bridge Rectifiers
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electronic/rectbr.html#c2
Where to buy...
$5.00 in the UK
35A job
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Buy-35A-Bridge-Rectifiers.htm
Here's an 80A job for $6.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360059397300
With this 80A (conservatively 40A capacity unit) does my little 20A Ebus
load need a heat-sink? Do I need to fear voltage
collapse if this thing is only getting 14V ?
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thu 6/5/2008 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use
<nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
At 07:21 AM 6/5/2008 -0700, you wrote:
<emjones@charter.net>
>
>
> > Note 24. When you have critical loads that you would like
> > to accommodate with dual power sources, the 4-diode
> > bridge rectifier offers an easy to acquire, easy to mount,
> > easy to wire solution. The figure for this note illustrates
> > which terminals are used. Figure Z-19 shows one example
> > of how the device is used.
> > If your critical system draws more than 4 but less than 8
> > amps, the diode bridge should be mounted on a metallic
> > surface for heat sinking. If the loads are heavier, say 8 amps
> > up to the 25 or 30 amp rating of the device, perhaps a finned
> > heat sink is called for. Consult the membership of the
> > AeroElectric List for guidance in these special cases.
>
>
>But let's be careful out there. Remember that a 25A Full Wave Bride is
>made up of four 12.5 Amp diodes. One must never make the mistake of
>thinking you can use it for 25A currents in a power-source-selecting
>circuit like Z-19. Bigger diodes are required.
True! When I picked the bridge rectifier assembly for
it's mechanical considerations (easy mounting, fast-on
tab connections) the smallest device that came in that
package was a 25A rated, full wave rectifier. 35A
devices also come in that package. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/s401-25.jpg
It didn't occur to me then that a builder would find
a practical application that would 'overload' the device
electrically. As you've accurately pointed out, there
are applications other than e-bus normal feed-path
circuits that could begin to load one of these critters
to it's rated limits. Referring to an exemplar
data sheet . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/gbpc12.pdf
. . . it's not clear but should be understood by
the astute reader that only 1/2 of the components of
a bridge rectifier are 'working' at any given time
on alternate half-cycles of the incoming AC
waveform. The data sheets don't offer a continuous
duty rating for single devices. In practice, I suspect
the individual devices can be used at more than 1/2
the ratings for the total package. It's a matter of
getting the heat out.
From the neophyte builder's perspective, limiting
continuous current on a single device to 1/2 the
rated current for the whole device is a no-brainer
conservative approach that will not disappoint.
But keep in mind that ANY semi-conductor loaded
to it's maximum continuous ratings dissipates
heat . . . energy that must be removed through
the mounting surfaces for the device. Further,
no matter how large the ratings for any
device - if the installation does not also take
care of the heat generated. 10A of current flowing
in a 100A rate part can smoke the device!
There's nothing electrically 'magic' about the
diode bridge rectifier illustrated above. It was
originally suggested for its convenience of
installation into systems that originally placed
very low demands on its electrical abilities . . .
no large concerns for rejecting heat. However,
as one considers pushing the practical limits
for this or any other device, close attention
to ratings, limits and installation is called
for.
Thanks for bringing this up Eric.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | EIS and Vans Fuel Guage |
This is the setup I have too and at the time I had to call Sandy to get the final
word. I recall just wiring up the fuel system per Van's drawings and just
splicing in the line going to the EIS and don't bother with the resister.
I think this is in the archives as well.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian
> > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone done this?
> >
> > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float
> > senders on RV-6
> >
> > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel
> > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming
> > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS)
> > through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender.
> >
> > Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the
> > resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in?
> >
> > Help,
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>This is the setup I have too and at the time I had to call Sandy to get the
final word. I recall just wiring up the fuel system per Van's
drawings and just splicing in the line going to the EIS and don't
bother with the resister.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think this is in the archives as well.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>> > -----Original Message----- <BR>> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <BR>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- <BR>> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian <BR>> > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 <BR>> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com <BR>> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage <BR>> > <BR>> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Edward Christian <BR>> > <EDCHRISTIAN@KNOLOGY.NET><BR>> > <BR>> > Has anyone done this? <BR>> > <BR>> > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float <BR>> > senders on RV-6 <BR>> > <BR>> > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel <BR>> > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming <BR>> > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS) <BR>> > through a 470 ohm 1/4-
1/2 Wa
=====
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 15
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| Subject: | EIS and Vans Fuel Guage |
I just double checked.
The exciting voltage from Van's fuel gauges will allow you NOT to use the GRT
EIS supplied resistors. And you can "T" off the return voltage form the sender
to the EIS without any additional work.
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
>
> Edward
>
> I did it, but since it was many moons ago, I can't remember how.
> As soon as I get to my scratched notes, I'll try to recover that information
> for you.
>
> Carlos
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian
> > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone done this?
> >
> > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float
> > senders on RV-6
> >
> > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel
> > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming
> > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS)
> > through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender.
> >
> > Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the
> > resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in?
> >
> > Help,
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>I just double checked.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> The exciting voltage from Van's fuel gauges will allow you NOT to use
the GRT EIS supplied resistors. And you can "T" off the return voltage
form the sender to the EIS without any additional work.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>lucky</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> <BR><BR>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <TRIGO@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT><BR>> <BR>> Edward <BR>> <BR>> I did it, but since it was many moons ago, I can't remember how. <BR>> As soon as I get to my scratched notes, I'll try to recover that information <BR>> for you. <BR>> <BR>> Carlos <BR>> <BR>> > -----Original Message----- <BR>> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <BR>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- <BR>> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian <BR>> > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 <BR>> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com <BR>> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage <BR>> > <BR>> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by:
Edwar
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