---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/10/08: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:42 AM - Re: Comm Antenna (h&jeuropa) 2. 06:06 AM - Re: New toy from Radio Shack (John Swartout) 3. 06:13 AM - Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!) (Eric M. Jones) 4. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!) (Harry Manvel) 5. 07:20 AM - Re: Bridge Diodes use (Eric M. Jones) 6. 07:58 AM - Re: New toy from Radio Shack (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:01 AM - Basic schematic drawing # () 8. 08:42 AM - Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? (Mike) 9. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use (Etienne Phillips) 10. 09:47 AM - Re: Basic schematic drawing # () 11. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use () 12. 11:20 AM - Re: Basic schematic drawing # (Gaye and Vaughn) 13. 11:33 AM - Re: Basic schematic drawing # () 14. 11:48 AM - Re: Basic schematic drawing # (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 12:07 PM - Re: Basic schematic drawing # (PJ Seipel) 16. 01:20 PM - Re: Basic schematic drawing # (David Chapdelaine) 17. 02:34 PM - Problem with TurboCAD (Jim McBurney) 18. 02:42 PM - Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL (Gig Giacona) 19. 03:40 PM - Re: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL (Matt Prather) 20. 03:54 PM - Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? (Dale Rogers) 21. 04:20 PM - Re: Problem with TurboCAD (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 04:56 PM - Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? (Ron Shannon) 23. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use (The Kuffels) 24. 05:10 PM - Re: Problem with Turbo CAD (Allen Fulmer) 25. 05:42 PM - Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 (Deems Davis) 26. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use (Matt Prather) 27. 06:09 PM - Re: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 (John Cox) 28. 07:01 PM - Re: Bridge Diodes use (Eric M. Jones) 29. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use (Bill Boyd) 30. 08:03 PM - Re: Re: Bridge Diodes use (Matt Prather) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Comm Antenna From: "h&jeuropa" I seem to have these problems pretty well solved. Initially tried shielded cables (shield grounded to A/C ground point near inst panel - unconnected at other end) with lots of toroids to the ELT and Magnetometer. Also made the interconnect between the Primary Flight Display and the MFD a shielded cable. Had little or no effect. Then tried just shielded cable (no toroids) to ELT and wrapped the entire ELT in aluminum foil. Foil is connected to the cable shield and ground is as before. That solved the ELT problem. From other forums I learned that there are D Sub filters which have capacitors built in bypassing each connection to the shell of the connector. Acquired Spectrum Control Series 100 filters, 5600 pf (from Newark Electronics) for the Magnetometer and the PFD (main display). At the Magnetometer I connected the cable shield to the D Sub shell since the shell is floating inside the Mag and I needed a return for the filter. Found the PFD filter didn't have any effect but the Mag helped some. Finally wrapped the Mag in aluminum foil which is connected to the shield and that seemed to solve the problems. I think there is so much RF from the com antenna and no shielding because of the composite, that it overwhelms the ELT and Magnetometer. I also found a local ham with an antenna analyzer (MFJ Model 269) and had a look at my com antenna. Found it had very low SWR but the resistance of the antenna changed if I walked near the antenna and the resistance was not constant or nearly so across the 118 to 136 Mhz range. We both suspected the toroid balun just didn't perform properly. So we decided to make a balun from coax as the ham radio books have shown for years. It is very much like the one on the Aero Electric website except the length of the balun section is an electrical half wavelength, so you must take into account the velocity factor of the cable. Using RG400 (vf=.695), the balun section is 16 1/4" long. Took off the toroids and installed the new balun. Had to trim the antenna to get the SWR low near the center of the band, but now the SWR is less than 2:1 across the entire band, the resistance stays constant and walking near the antenna makes no difference. Hope this helps someone else. Jim Butcher Europa N241BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187107#187107 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:49 AM PST US From: John Swartout Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New toy from Radio Shack Bob, I can't recall if you've ever expressed your views on soldering guns. Any reason not to use one? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:55 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!) From: "Eric M. Jones" I have studied these for a while and an planning a version of my True Servo Control MAC/RAC (TSCMR) which will incorporate the panel bar graph. But for now, attached is a schematic of the Ray Allen trim box and indicator. Most people might want to keep these with their wiring book. Hope this helps. "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187120#187120 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mac_servo_and_indicator_wiring_ae_194.pdf ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:57 AM PST US From: "Harry Manvel" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!) Eric, You seem to know the MAC trim system, maybe you can offer an opinion. My bar graph indicator has always gone bonkers when in flight, but at idle on the ground works normally. No amount of shielding, rewiring etc. has been able to stop this. The folks at the factory really had no clue as to what might cause it. Any thoughts on that? Harry Manvel Defiant N2HM PTK / Pontiac, MI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!) > > > I have studied these for a while and an planning a version of my True > Servo Control MAC/RAC (TSCMR) which will incorporate the panel bar graph. > But for now, attached is a schematic of the Ray Allen trim box and > indicator. Most people might want to keep these with their wiring book. > > Hope this helps. > > "A witty saying proves nothing." > --Voltaire > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187120#187120 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/mac_servo_and_indicator_wiring_ae_194.pdf > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use From: "Eric M. Jones" More on Diodes and FWBs: On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must dissipate 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 = 12 Watt Heatsink". But this is wrong and points out a common fallacy regarding diodes: With two resistors in parallel, the resistance of the combination is 1/2. With two MosFets in parallel, the Rds(on) of the combination is 1/2 When using two (or any number of DIODES in parallel, the combination of the Vf's is still only Vf. B & C didn't understand this, and thus the dissipated wattage is twice what is stated. And remember--this bridge rectifier will ONLY handle 12.5 Amps with an infinite heatsink and NO margin when used in a source-selecting configuration. This brings me back to my tired old point that anyone using regular diodes need to re-evaluate their choice. I have sold MANY HUNDREDS of PowerSchottkys to builders who understand this. For Z-19 etc. builders, check out the IXYS DSS 2x61-0045A Dual Power Schottky Rectifiers. 30A on each leg. I sell these with heatsink and Y-jumper, etc., but you can buy your own. Before being concerned by the higher price--consider the savings in the much smaller, lighter heat sink, the higher performance, and the FAR LOWER COST OF OWNERSHIP. Someday my friend Bob will abandon this FWB stuff and go with Schottky Diodes. But I guess you can't get them at Radio Shack. "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." ---Jean Paul Getty -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187132#187132 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_deuce_schottky_manual_127.pdf ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New toy from Radio Shack At 09:02 AM 6/10/2008 -0400, you wrote: > > >Bob, I can't recall if you've ever expressed your views on soldering >guns. Any reason not to use one? They get hot, melt solder and for a time (about 1962) was my #1 choice of soldering tools when I was working with hard wired vacuum tubes. I have a couple but very seldom use them . . . my benches have Metcal stations and the grab-it-and-run tool boxes have gas powered and/or battery powered portables. It's not that the soldering gun doesn't work as advertised, it's just bulky and horribly inefficient. When you consider the part that gets hot . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Irons/gun2.jpg the 125 watts of rated power dissipated over the whole length of the copper "tip". I wouldn't bad-mouth the things. They're entirely suitable to the soldering tasks for some folks, they just don't fit my personal beat-n-bash model any more. I have a grandson who may end up owning one of my soldering guns. It's a good start-up teaching tool. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:36 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # Hi All, I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone help me out? Thanks, Dave ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:19 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? Mike, Another option is to use a water jet machine. You can download Turbo CAD and learn to do holes on it in about an hour or two. Save to a DXF file format and then bring the file and metal to your local water jet guy and have it cut. Cost of program for 30 days - free, cost for 10 switch holes in 2024 less then $20, cost of learning basic CAD - priceless (you can use it more then once). Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikef Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:44 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? Hi AeroElectricteers, I am close to actually mounting the switches (99% B&C Carling switches) and finalizing the wiring in my Z-19 system. I was looking for recommendations about how to drill clean, neat holes for switches in my light aluminum boxes. Because of panel space I will need to mount several switches, along with rectangular digital volt and ammeter gauges, on the dash above the fiberglass panel, in a long aluminum box. The box I have is about 12"x3"x3" , that comes in two parts, separates easily with screws removed. I plan to mount the box base on top of the dash, then mount the switches into the other half that mates together. I have access to a small drill press but I've not done this kind of drilling/mounting before, and I'd really like to do a neat job of it. No rough gouged holes. Advice and suggestions regarding tools (dills, bits, etc) and techniques for drilling the round switch holes and rectangular gauge holes is most appreciated. Thanks, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186861#186861 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:36 AM PST US From: "Etienne Phillips" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use > >On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must dissipate > 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 = 12 Watt > Heatsink". > In my experience, I have never come across a 12W heatsink. Nor a 1W or 1000W heatsink. A heatsink is chosen appropriate to the temperature rise above ambient the casing of the device can tolerate, or what the spec-sheet says. A single machined-bolt head can dissipate 12W without any additional cooling, however only when it reaches 200 degrees C (thumbsuck). If you can only tolerate a 1degC increase in temperature, the heatsink required to dissipate 12W will be the size of a large desk. So, a specsheet specifies the heatsinking requirements in [degrees above ambient]/[Watt], or specifies the maximum allowable temperature. So consider an ambient of 23degC, a maximum of 100degC, and we have calculated that the device will need to dissipate 10W. That gives us a requirement for a 7.7deg/Watt heatsink, which can be ordered accordingly. I understand the calculations relating to dissipation of heat, and IIRC a Schottky diode, with a forward bias voltage of 0.2V rather than the 0.6~0.7V of a regular diode, dissipates 1/3 the energy for a given current. However, there are always other considerations that have not been touched in this discussion (such as thermal robustness, vibration tolerance, ease of mounting), some of which are the same for both Schottky diodes and for normal ones, and others which will draw very clear lines in the sand precluding one or both from certain applications. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # From: Dave, You're not making much sense. We don't know what you saw b4, during or after you read the book? It sounds like you'll get to read the book again and interpret the writings to apply what is best for your equipment. The book clearly separates simple from complex with respect to the diagrams. Enjoy Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chappyd@charter.net Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # Hi All, I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone help me out? Thanks, Dave ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:54 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use From: Eric, Thanks for the information. On Saturday I hooked up the B & C diode with heat sink attached for a 6 hour load test (Z-19). I turned on 15 amps worth of stuff to see if it would start smoking or something of the sort. Initially it got 30-35 C but later cooled down below 30 C for the duration of the run. No adverse behavior to report. If my load gets any higher I'll be over the Schottky fence. The Schottky device certainly looks more robust and if it runs cooler, I may be the next fan. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use --> More on Diodes and FWBs: On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must dissipate 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 = 12 Watt Heatsink". But this is wrong and points out a common fallacy regarding diodes: With two resistors in parallel, the resistance of the combination is 1/2. With two MosFets in parallel, the Rds(on) of the combination is 1/2 When using two (or any number of DIODES in parallel, the combination of the Vf's is still only Vf. B & C didn't understand this, and thus the dissipated wattage is twice what is stated. And remember--this bridge rectifier will ONLY handle 12.5 Amps with an infinite heatsink and NO margin when used in a source-selecting configuration. This brings me back to my tired old point that anyone using regular diodes need to re-evaluate their choice. I have sold MANY HUNDREDS of PowerSchottkys to builders who understand this. For Z-19 etc. builders, check out the IXYS DSS 2x61-0045A Dual Power Schottky Rectifiers. 30A on each leg. I sell these with heatsink and Y-jumper, etc., but you can buy your own. Before being concerned by the higher price--consider the savings in the much smaller, lighter heat sink, the higher performance, and the FAR LOWER COST OF OWNERSHIP. Someday my friend Bob will abandon this FWB stuff and go with Schottky Diodes. But I guess you can't get them at Radio Shack. "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." ---Jean Paul Getty -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187132#187132 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_deuce_schottky_manual_127.pdf ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:14 AM PST US From: "Gaye and Vaughn" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # It sounds like you have misplaced either Z-11, labeled "Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System". Does that ring a bell? Vauhgn ---- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # > > Hi All, > > I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to > plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric > connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to > follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery > system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics > in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone > help me out? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:54 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # Yes, I believe that is the one, Z11. I removed it from the book and must have brought it into the shop, and have misplaced it. Would it be possible to get a copy? Thanks, Dave ---- Gaye and Vaughn wrote: > > > It sounds like you have misplaced either Z-11, labeled "Generic Light > Aircraft Electrical System". > Does that ring a bell? > > Vauhgn > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:56 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to > > plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric > > connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to > > follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery > > system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics > > in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone > > help me out? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # At 11:30 AM 6/10/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Yes, I believe that is the one, Z11. I removed it from the book and must >have brought it into the shop, and have misplaced it. Would it be possible >to get a copy? > >Thanks, Dave Z-figures in the book are out of date before the ink dries. The latest Z-figures are always posted in both .dwg CAD format . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/ and .pdf printer format on the website at . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:23 PM PST US From: PJ Seipel Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # You can download them from www.aeroelectric.com. Go to Downloadable Reference Materials, and then Page Per System Drawings. You get your choice of .DXF (cad) or .PDF PJ Seipel RV-10 #40032 do not archive chappyd@charter.net wrote: > > Yes, I believe that is the one, Z11. I removed it from the book and must have brought it into the shop, and have misplaced it. Would it be possible to get a copy? > > Thanks, Dave > > > ---- Gaye and Vaughn wrote: > >> >> >> It sounds like you have misplaced either Z-11, labeled "Generic Light >> Aircraft Electrical System". >> Does that ring a bell? >> >> Vauhgn >> >> ---- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:56 AM >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # >> >> >> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to >>> plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric >>> connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to >>> follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery >>> system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics >>> in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone >>> help me out? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:30 PM PST US From: "David Chapdelaine" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # Thanks all. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "PJ Seipel" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # > > You can download them from www.aeroelectric.com. Go to Downloadable > Reference Materials, and then Page Per System Drawings. You get your > choice of .DXF (cad) or .PDF > > PJ Seipel > RV-10 #40032 > do not archive > > chappyd@charter.net wrote: >> >> Yes, I believe that is the one, Z11. I removed it from the book and must >> have brought it into the shop, and have misplaced it. Would it be >> possible to get a copy? >> >> Thanks, Dave >> >> >> >> ---- Gaye and Vaughn wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> It sounds like you have misplaced either Z-11, labeled "Generic Light >>> Aircraft Electrical System". >>> Does that ring a bell? >>> >>> Vauhgn >>> >>> ---- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:56 AM >>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to >>>> plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the >>>> aeroelectric connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I >>>> was going to follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single >>>> alternator and battery system. I went back to the book to look and I >>>> went through the schematics in the back of the book, but can't find the >>>> one I saw earlier. Can anyone help me out? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Date: 6/6/2008 5:48 PM > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:29 PM PST US From: "Jim McBurney" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Problem with TurboCAD Bob (and List), Help! I'm trying to load Z figures into TurboCAD, and I keep getting "cannot open file" errors. I've downloaded TurboCAD Learning Edition from two different sources on the internet, and both give the same results. I purchased a paper copy of Aeroelectric Connection ver 10, and have downloaded ver 11 from the website, which is my source of the Z-figure files. I can load the .pdf files, but obviously can't use them in cad. I'm running in Win2000. Any ideas what my problem is? Thanks in advance for any help. Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL From: "Gig Giacona" First off, I'm not an electrician but I wasn't a metals guy before I started building my plane either. I've gotten my Corvair engine built by William Wynne and will be starting the electrical work shortly and could use all the advice I can get. I understand because of the Corvair I'll have to make changes to any of the AeroElectric plans but I could use some advise on which one to start with. Here's what the plane will have electric wise. Icom A210 Garmin 320 Garmin 496 Landing and Taxi Lights RAC trim on both aileron and elevator Dynon 180 Strobes on the wings Nav Lights Electric Flaps As I mentioned the WW Corvair engine has a unique ignition system Single plug per cylinder and dual ignition one points and one electronic. There are also two inline electric fuel pumps on the engine side of the firewall. They will be wired along with the ignition so that a single switch switches both ignition system and fuel pumps. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187241#187241 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL From: "Matt Prather" > > snip > firewall. They will be wired along with the ignition so that a single > switch switches both ignition system and fuel pumps. > It's possible I don't clearly understand how you'll be wiring the fuel pumps and ignition system(s).. But it sounds like you are saying that there will be a single switch controlling everything. If so, I believe this switch represents a single point of failure, which is generally undesirable for flight critical electrical items - at least when it comes to switches... If the switch falls apart, the engine could stop running(?). > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > Regards, Matt ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:03 PM PST US From: Dale Rogers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? Ron, Wrong kind of "punch". Take a lot at the Harbor Freight # 91201 punch set: [ http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91201 ] One drills a center/pilot hole for the through-bolt, which pulls the two halves of the punch together through the panel. No throat size to worry about. Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 Ch. 13 Ron Shannon wrote: > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Robert Feldtman > wrote: > > a "punch" is better - they are on sale at Harbour freight > > bobf > > > A good punch is great if you can get one with a deep enough throat to > reach the locations on your panel and if it will punch a 15/32" hole > spec'd for the S700 series switches. The one I got from HF (#91510) > has a 3-1/4" throat which wouldn't reach some of the holes in other > parts of my layout and only goes up to a 7/16" hole. > > Ron ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with TurboCAD At 05:30 PM 6/10/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >Bob (and List), > >Help! >I'm trying to load Z figures into TurboCAD, and I keep getting "cannot open >file" errors. I've downloaded TurboCAD Learning Edition from two different >sources on the internet, and both give the same results. I purchased a >paper copy of Aeroelectric Connection ver 10, and have downloaded ver 11 >from the website, which is my source of the Z-figure files. I can load the >.pdf files, but obviously can't use them in cad. I'm running in Win2000. >Any ideas what my problem is? > >Thanks in advance for any help.\ Don't know what the "learning edition" is. I have copies of TurboCAD 7 and TurboCAD v10 on my computer. Both open, edit, print and save the .dwg files from the website. You can get a "real" copy of TurboCAD dirt cheap from sources like: http://tinyurl.com/44fhvd Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:26 PM PST US From: "Ron Shannon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Dale Rogers wrote: > > Ron, > > Wrong kind of "punch". Take a lot at the Harbor Freight # 91201 punch > set: > > [ http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91201 ] > > One drills a center/pilot hole for the through-bolt, which pulls the two > halves of the punch together through the panel. No throat size to worry > about. > > Dale R. > COZY MkIV #0497 > Ch. 13 Yes, of course, but... still no 15/32" for the S700's. Ron ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:35 PM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use Eric, Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total generation of still only 12 watts not 24. What am I missing? Tom, AL7AU ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:21 PM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Problem with Turbo CAD Bob, I bought one of the "cheap" copies of Turbo CAD 10.2 and it opens the Zxx files just fine. Problem is, I can't seem to find any of the tutorials on their web site. I suspect they pull them after some number of newer versions are released. I'm sure a policy designed to sell more upgrades. I recently took a little intro CAD course at the local junior college but they were using AutoCAD 2008. Little similarity I am afraid (no command line in TC) so was looking for some way to learn TC without printing out the 400 plus page pdf document on the CDROM. Amy suggestions on learning TC 10.2 other than to just tough it out? At any rate, thanks for all the wonderful information and drawings. Couldn't do this wiring thing without it. Thanks again, Allen Fulmer RV7 working on electrical Alexander City, AL >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Robert >>>L. Nuckolls, III >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:18 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with TurboCAD >>> >>> >>>Nuckolls, III" >>> >>>At 05:30 PM 6/10/2008 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Bob (and List), >>>> >>>>Help! >>>>I'm trying to load Z figures into TurboCAD, and I keep >>>getting "cannot open >>>>file" errors. I've downloaded TurboCAD Learning Edition >>>from two different >>>>sources on the internet, and both give the same results. I >>>purchased a >>>>paper copy of Aeroelectric Connection ver 10, and have >>>downloaded ver 11 >>>>from the website, which is my source of the Z-figure files. >>> I can load the >>>>.pdf files, but obviously can't use them in cad. I'm >>>running in Win2000. >>>>Any ideas what my problem is? >>>> >>>>Thanks in advance for any help.\ >>> >>> Don't know what the "learning edition" is. I have copies >>> of TurboCAD 7 and TurboCAD v10 on my computer. Both open, >>> edit, print and save the .dwg files from the website. You >>> can get a "real" copy of TurboCAD dirt cheap from sources like: >>> >>>http://tinyurl.com/44fhvd >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:46 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 I would like to install a ground power outlet/jack on my airplane. I have a copy of Bob's article from the website. I have a dual battery, dual buss (Z14) system installed as close as I could to Bob's diagram. Is there anything unique that I should do when installing the above? I suppose that the most likely need/use for this would be in the event that with the plane away from home base,one or both electric systems were left on after engine shutdown, and both batteries drained to the point where they would not crank the engine. 1. If the ground power was only installed to connect to one (the primary) battery is there any consideration that needs to be taken to protect/isolate the other battery during a start using ground power. (The Z14 momentarily couples both elec systems together during start). 2. With only a single ground power jack is there any 'reasonable' way to 'charge' both batteries through this jack? Exposing my lack of electrical confidence/understanding. Deems Davis ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use From: "Matt Prather" I'm with you Tom.. The only thing I'd add is that a diode has a pretty sharp knee in it's I-V curve - where it's "resistance" goes from looking high (small change in I for a large change in V) to where it's "resistance" looks low (large change in I for small change in V). If two unmatched devices are used in parallel, process differences between them can cause one of the devices to turn on (forward bias) before the other, and carry noticeable more current in that operating region. Since significantly more voltage than the knee voltage is available in this application, we can be fairly confident that both devices will be fully forward biased, and the power drop should be fairly equal. It's also likely that both devices come from the same fab lot (and wafer) and so their electrical properties are probably essentially matched. Regards, Matt > > > Eric, > > Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but > don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat > dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the > current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or > less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each > diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total > generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > > What am I missing? > > Tom, AL7AU > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 From: "John Cox" With the RV-10 and internal ground straps (back in the baggage area) it is not as critical. But I love to see electric shrink wrap and prosealed ends on ground straps that are FWF. The strap loves to wick hydrocarbons and promote corrosion - over the life of an aircraft. It makes cleaning for Conditional Inspections a breeze. John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 I would like to install a ground power outlet/jack on my airplane. I have a copy of Bob's article from the website. I have a dual battery, dual buss (Z14) system installed as close as I could to Bob's diagram. Is there anything unique that I should do when installing the above? I suppose that the most likely need/use for this would be in the event that with the plane away from home base,one or both electric systems were left on after engine shutdown, and both batteries drained to the point where they would not crank the engine. 1. If the ground power was only installed to connect to one (the primary) battery is there any consideration that needs to be taken to protect/isolate the other battery during a start using ground power. (The Z14 momentarily couples both elec systems together during start). 2. With only a single ground power jack is there any 'reasonable' way to 'charge' both batteries through this jack? Exposing my lack of electrical confidence/understanding. Deems Davis ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:14 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use From: "Eric M. Jones" > Eric, > > Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but > don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat > dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the > current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or > less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each > diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total > generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > What am I missing? > Tom, AL7AU Tom et al. If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, they still dissipate Vf X A. Where A is the current through the device; in this case the Full Wave Bridge (FWB) or Schottky Module. The important point is that Vf is not reduced by putting parts in parallel. (But it is increased by putting parts in series....) (True, each diode carries less current, but the package is what we bolt to the heat sink. In fact you can distribute the heat dissipation by distributing the parts, and this is done on some designs, since small parts have greater surface area per volume, so they might not need a heat sink at all.) > If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. If pigs had wings!....The error I pointed out is the claim that a B & C FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. It does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed that the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best conventional FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy these at Radio Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., and 24W worst case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. By the way, FWB packages are just four diodes wired up to four terminals and epoxy potted in a little box. You could make your own, but it's easier to abandon the concept entirely. Hope this doesn't scramble it more. For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard P. Feynman -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187299#187299 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:17 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use So you're saying that any given diode (of the four) in a conventional, inexpensive potted FWB rectifier has a Vf typ of 1.2V? That's news - very bad news. I always thought 0.6V was closer to average, per Si diode, and about half that for Ge diodes. Learned something today. -Bill B On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones@charter.net> > > > > Eric, > > > > Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but > > don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat > > dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > > If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the > > current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or > > less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each > > diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total > > generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > > What am I missing? > > Tom, AL7AU > > > Tom et al. > > If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, > they still dissipate Vf X A. Where A is the current through the device; in > this case the Full Wave Bridge (FWB) or Schottky Module. > > The important point is that Vf is not reduced by putting parts in parallel. > (But it is increased by putting parts in series....) > > (True, each diode carries less current, but the package is what we bolt to > the heat sink. In fact you can distribute the heat dissipation by > distributing the parts, and this is done on some designs, since small parts > have greater surface area per volume, so they might not need a heat sink at > all.) > > > > If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > > > If pigs had wings!....The error I pointed out is the claim that a B & C > FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. It > does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed that > the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best conventional > FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy these at Radio > Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., and 24W worst > case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. > > By the way, FWB packages are just four diodes wired up to four terminals > and epoxy potted in a little box. You could make your own, but it's easier > to abandon the concept entirely. > > Hope this doesn't scramble it more. > > For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. > -- Richard P. Feynman > > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187299#187299 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use From: "Matt Prather" I believe a normal Si diode has a Vf around 0.6V - 0.7V. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode A bridge rectifier would normally be wired so that two diodes are in series. However, many of these bridge rectifiers are built to allow access to all four nodes of the circuit. http://www.vishay.com/docs/88612/gbpc12.pdf This datasheet indeed shows a Vf of 1.1V - used as a rectifier. I'm pretty sure this is measured across the + and - terminals - two diodes in series. I believe it has been proposed that these rectifiers be used to feed the E-bus by shorting across two of the diodes and paralleling the other two, and a Vf = 0.6V. I missed the original reference to the B&C guidance that paralleling dropped the Vf. Please post that if you have it.. Regards, Matt- > > > >> Eric, >> >> Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but >> don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat >> dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward >> voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. >> If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the >> current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or >> less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each >> diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total >> generation of still only 12 watts not 24. >> What am I missing? >> Tom, AL7AU > > > Tom et al. > > If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, > they still dissipate Vf X A. Where A is the current through the device; in > this case the Full Wave Bridge (FWB) or Schottky Module. > > The important point is that Vf is not reduced by putting parts in > parallel. (But it is increased by putting parts in series....) > > (True, each diode carries less current, but the package is what we bolt to > the heat sink. In fact you can distribute the heat dissipation by > distributing the parts, and this is done on some designs, since small > parts have greater surface area per volume, so they might not need a heat > sink at all.) > > >> If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward >> voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > > > If pigs had wings!....The error I pointed out is the claim that a B & C > FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. > It does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed > that the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best > conventional FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy > these at Radio Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., > and 24W worst case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. > > By the way, FWB packages are just four diodes wired up to four terminals > and epoxy potted in a little box. You could make your own, but it's easier > to abandon the concept entirely. > > Hope this doesn't scramble it more. > > For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. > -- Richard P. Feynman > > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187299#187299 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.