AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 06/14/08


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 08:49 AM - Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 11:32 AM - Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram (az_gila)
     3. 12:24 PM - aux battery current (Ron Shannon)
     4. 02:58 PM - Re: aux battery current (Ron Shannon)
     5. 03:39 PM - Re: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 (Richard T. Schaefer)
     6. 04:59 PM - Re: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 (Ron Shannon)
     7. 06:23 PM - Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ? (user9253)
     8. 08:17 PM - Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ? (Bill Schlatterer)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 08:49:37 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
    At 10:06 PM 6/13/2008 -0500, you wrote: >Bob, I am having a little trouble understanding the charging circuit for >the 7ah battery in Z13-8b. What I see is that the normal E-Bus Alt Feed >path is in place to activate the Aux Bat if needed to the Endurance >bus. The Brown-Out Battery Relay is normally energized by the starter >circuit which disconnects the Aux Bat while starting but leaves it in the >circuit for normal charging at all other times. > >What I don't understand is why you would use a S701-4 relay instead of a >simple D25 steering diode which has no moving parts? Isn't this the same >thing we are doing with the diode between the E-Bus and the Main Bus >(allowing a one way current flow)? Is there some advantage in using the >relay over the diode in this "brown-out battery relay" position? > ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf > The relay has essentially zero voltage drop across it. The silicon rectifier has about .8 volts you could use a Schottky diode for about 0.5 volts depending on your e-bus loads. The design rationale is that the brown-out support battery get the recharging benefit from full bus voltage for normal operations. On the other hand, if you're not counting on the brown-out support battery as part of the endurance capacity, perhaps allowing the brown-out battery to live in the airplane at reduced capacity fits your design goals. I have it on my list of things to do in the lab to measure the difference in state of charge for small SVLA batteries when the recharge levels are 0.5 and 0.8 volts below the main bus. In any case, I'm sure it's not a really big deal if you'd like to substitute a diode, particularly a Schottky device for the relay. The reason I suggested the relay was because I could not quantify the difference in state of charge based on good data. The "easy" way out was to suggest a switching device that did not put the battery's state of charge in question. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:32:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
    From: "az_gila" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
    I'm presently creating a set of symbols for Turbocad. One secret to easy aircraft schematics is the use of good symbols and an appropriate grid system. If the two are set up correctly, then everything literally "snaps into place". I started with Bob N. schematics, but when they converted to TurboCad all (if any) grid information was lost. I'm making a Z-11 copy with these symbols for another RV-7A builder, and will publish them when done (a week or so). Look for them on VAF. gil A - just completed 18 pages for my simple RV-6A - Dynon 180, GX-65 GPS/com and KY-97A com. PS for the $$, the old versions of TurboCad are great value. $15 or so on e-bay for a legal copy of a previous version. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi Dave, > I've found TurboCAD very nice for doing electrical plans and 3D drawings > as well. It's a full featured program > that's reasonable to buy. After a life with AutoCAD and ProE, it's a > better personal solution for the individual designer. > These drawings were done in version 10, but they've been maintained thru > version 15. > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/eltdwg.gif > Awesome program easy to learn............ > > Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com > > > Dave VanLanen wrote: > > > > > For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to > > create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found > > any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of > > creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? > > > > Dave > > > > * > > * > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187890#187890


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:24:11 PM PST US
    From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@CRUZCOM.COM>
    Subject: aux battery current
    I'm pondering sizing of the wire from a small AUX BAT to the battery bus. The small AUX BAT would only be intended to extend battery life on the E-bus, and/or to add juice for a few things on the main bus (landing lights, etc.) For example, when a low voltage condition occurs (alternator failure) and the AUTO mode of the AUX BAT mgmt. module turns the AUX BAT relay OFF, how much current flow can be expected from a small AUX BAT to the battery bus if/when the AUX BAT relay is manually switched ON later in the flight? The answer probably depends on the state of charge of the main battery at the time, but... is it possible to estimate a range of current that could be expected out of the AUX BAT as the two batteries are switched into parallel? Would any surge be sufficiently short term that a 10 or 12 AWG would suffice? Ron


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:58:36 PM PST US
    From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@CRUZCOM.COM>
    Subject: Re: aux battery current
    For example, if when the AUX BAT is turned ON there's a 1 volt differential between AUX BAT and battery bus, would the initial current flow from AUX BAT to the battery bus be a function of the voltage differential and the internal resistance of the main battery, plus the current load of whatever devices were in use? Ron On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote: > I'm pondering sizing of the wire from a small AUX BAT to the battery bus. > The small AUX BAT would only be intended to extend battery life on the > E-bus, and/or to add juice for a few things on the main bus (landing lights, > etc.) For example, when a low voltage condition occurs (alternator failure) > and the AUTO mode of the AUX BAT mgmt. module turns the AUX BAT relay OFF, > how much current flow can be expected from a small AUX BAT to the battery > bus if/when the AUX BAT relay is manually switched ON later in the flight? > > The answer probably depends on the state of charge of the main battery at > the time, but... is it possible to estimate a range of current that could be > expected out of the AUX BAT as the two batteries are switched into parallel? > Would any surge be sufficiently short term that a 10 or 12 AWG would > suffice? > > Ron >


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:39:45 PM PST US
    From: "Richard T. Schaefer" <schaefer@rts-services.com>
    Subject: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14
    I would power the external ground relay from the external power. Use a diode to make sure that the polarity from the external power is correct before it close the external power to your battery. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 I would like to install a ground power outlet/jack on my airplane. I have a copy of Bob's article from the website. I have a dual battery, dual buss (Z14) system installed as close as I could to Bob's diagram. Is there anything unique that I should do when installing the above? I suppose that the most likely need/use for this would be in the event that with the plane away from home base,one or both electric systems were left on after engine shutdown, and both batteries drained to the point where they would not crank the engine. 1. If the ground power was only installed to connect to one (the primary) battery is there any consideration that needs to be taken to protect/isolate the other battery during a start using ground power. (The Z14 momentarily couples both elec systems together during start). 2. With only a single ground power jack is there any 'reasonable' way to 'charge' both batteries through this jack? Exposing my lack of electrical confidence/understanding. Deems Davis


    Message 6


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    Time: 04:59:31 PM PST US
    From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@CRUZCOM.COM>
    Subject: Re: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14
    I agree about powering GRND PWR relay from ground power -- there may not be any internal battery power left to turn it ON when you need it most. However, I added a small twist. The GRND PWR switch is on a right side panel that's angled back so it's visible if the pilot looks at it, but not in the normal viewing direction, and a stretch to reach from the left seat, so it could easily be forgotten and left ON when it shouldn't be. The first pole of a DPST switch controls the GRND PWR relay from ground power. However, to alert whenever the switch is ON, the second pole of the switch controls an LED over the switch that is powered from the battery bus. The LED provides an eye catching positive indication, highly visible from the left side, that the GRND PWR switch has been left ON, whether live ground power is connected or not. The switch also has a hinged guard. Overkill perhaps, but... even with polarity, fuse and over-voltage protection on the ground power circuit, I don't want to forget to turn it OFF when I leave the plane (or start to taxi) if it's not supposed to be ON. Of course, I'll probably forget it anyway. :-) Ron On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Richard T. Schaefer < schaefer@rts-services.com> wrote: > schaefer@rts-services.com> > > I would power the external ground relay from the external power. > Use a diode to make sure that the polarity from the external power > is correct before it close the external power to your battery. >


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:23:34 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
    From: "user9253" <fran5sew@banyanol.com>
    Bill S Another advantage of using a relay is that the power can be interrupted close to the source, a nice feature to have in case of smoke in the cockpit. One could think of the relay as a mini battery contactor. Only a small size wire is required between the relay coil and cockpit switch. Also, a diode would keep the E-Bus always hot. With a diode, each load on the E-Bus would have to be shut off individually at the end of the flight to prevent the batteries from running down. Joe Gores -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187924#187924


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:17:29 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
    Thanks Bob, I have the diode on a fused circuit going to the main bus so that it charges when the master is on but doesn't drain if it's off. Didn't consider the reduced voltage through the diode as being insufficient to keep the smaller battery "fully" charged. I do get a .6 volt drop across the D25. Thanks for posting the diagram, made me think about it again. Thanks Bill S 7a finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ? --> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net> At 10:06 PM 6/13/2008 -0500, you wrote: >Bob, I am having a little trouble understanding the charging circuit >for the 7ah battery in Z13-8b. What I see is that the normal E-Bus Alt >Feed path is in place to activate the Aux Bat if needed to the >Endurance bus. The Brown-Out Battery Relay is normally energized by >the starter circuit which disconnects the Aux Bat while starting but >leaves it in the circuit for normal charging at all other times. > >What I don't understand is why you would use a S701-4 relay instead of >a simple D25 steering diode which has no moving parts? Isn't this the >same thing we are doing with the diode between the E-Bus and the Main >Bus (allowing a one way current flow)? Is there some advantage in >using the relay over the diode in this "brown-out battery relay" position? > ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOu >tBattery).pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z >13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf > The relay has essentially zero voltage drop across it. The silicon rectifier has about .8 volts you could use a Schottky diode for about 0.5 volts depending on your e-bus loads. The design rationale is that the brown-out support battery get the recharging benefit from full bus voltage for normal operations. On the other hand, if you're not counting on the brown-out support battery as part of the endurance capacity, perhaps allowing the brown-out battery to live in the airplane at reduced capacity fits your design goals. I have it on my list of things to do in the lab to measure the difference in state of charge for small SVLA batteries when the recharge levels are 0.5 and 0.8 volts below the main bus. In any case, I'm sure it's not a really big deal if you'd like to substitute a diode, particularly a Schottky device for the relay. The reason I suggested the relay was because I could not quantify the difference in state of charge based on good data. The "easy" way out was to suggest a switching device that did not put the battery's state of charge in question. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------




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