Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:30 AM - Re: fuse placement (bob noffs)
2. 06:05 AM - ignition switch (bob noffs)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List (Carlos Trigo)
4. 07:17 AM - Re: Electrical Mystery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:36 AM - Re: Electrical Mystery (Brett Ferrell)
6. 08:09 AM - Re: Electrical Mystery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:10 AM - Re: Electrical Mystery (Chuck Jensen)
8. 08:12 AM - Re: Is this splice acceptable? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:20 AM - Re: fuse placement (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:27 AM - Re: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:29 AM - Re: S811-1 B&C Starter Contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:30 AM - Re: Grip Flap Motor Control (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:33 AM - Re: New to the list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 08:34 AM - Re: EL Lighting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 08:46 AM - Re: Grip Flap Motor Control (Ron Shannon)
16. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 09:05 AM - Re: Battery Capacity tester (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem (Frank Stringham)
19. 12:04 PM - Re: New to the list (Iberplanes IGL)
20. 12:10 PM - Skybright Strobes for Sale (mikef)
21. 12:58 PM - Endurance bus load (John Morgensen)
22. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram (John Morgensen)
23. 01:25 PM - Re: Endurance bus load (JohnInReno)
24. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 02:51 PM - Re: New to the list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 05:41 PM - Re: Grip Flap Motor Control (selwyn)
27. 08:00 PM - Re: Endurance bus load (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 08:17 PM - Problem with 2-70 substitute? (Allen Fulmer)
29. 09:52 PM - Re: Problem with 2-70 substitute? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: fuse placement |
carlos, i type slow enough with 2 fingers as it is!
i broke my arm a few months ago but i find i can type as fast with
my left finger as with my right finger!
bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Trigo
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuse placement
hi bob
Is it your keyboard that lost its "shift" key, or do you really hate
to hit it?
Couldn't resist J
Carlos
Do not archive
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse placement
hi ron,
yes, i have a single point of failure for my main bus but i thought
it more important to protect that fairly hefty wire from shorting. if i
lose all elect. to my cabin i guess i will land in the next hour. a
shorted wire would really limit my options. i fly only day vfr so this
works for me.
i have hundreds of pics where i didnt even have a subject in mind. i
just shot. every angle i can. then when i go back to my pics i usually
get lucky and find just what i am looking for!
bob noffs
Message 2
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hi bob,
thanks for the wiring info. i looked in your book but didnt look far
enough. shielded wire is on order.
bob noffs
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List |
Very good reason, I was obviously making a joke...
Hope your arm is now in shape
Cheers
Carlos
P.S. - what are you building or flying?
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs
Sent: quinta-feira, 3 de Julho de 2008 13:26
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse placement
carlos, i type slow enough with 2 fingers as it is!
i broke my arm a few months ago but i find i can type as fast with my
left finger as with my right finger!
bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Trigo <mailto:trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuse placement
hi bob
Is it your keyboard that lost its "shift" key, or do you really hate to hit
it?
Couldn't resist :-)
Carlos
Do not archive
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse placement
hi ron,
yes, i have a single point of failure for my main bus but i thought it more
important to protect that fairly hefty wire from shorting. if i lose all
elect. to my cabin i guess i will land in the next hour. a shorted wire
would really limit my options. i fly only day vfr so this works for me.
i have hundreds of pics where i didnt even have a subject in mind. i just
shot. every angle i can. then when i go back to my pics i usually get lucky
and find just what i am looking for!
bob noffs
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical Mystery |
At 07:44 AM 7/2/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>
>This was related to me by a fellow hangar mate:
>
>While taxing to the runway I got a message on my 430 Garmin and the
>nav/com2 started blinking as if it where loosing power.
>The Mooney is powered by an 0360 A2F lycoming with a generator charging
>system.. I had a normal start-up and all was normal. Engine RPM directly
>after start-up was 700. After a couple of minutes of warm up I take it to
>1000 to allow vacuum to increase. I set my radios and instruments then
>began my taxi.
>
>All indications were normal until half way to the runway. I retrieved a
>message from the 430 that said "no altitude input" and the Nav/Com2
>started blinking. RPM was 1200 during taxi. When I stopped for run-up the
>garmin had shut off completely. I took the RPM to 2000 and it came back on
>and I was able to reset my destination. All other indications were normal.
>Amp gauge was showing a positive charge as it normally does. I turned off
>all my lights and when I dropped the RPM to approximately 1500 the garmin
>and nav/com2 once again lost power.
>
>Is this symptomatic of an electron illness of a particular sort?
The FIRST thing to do in these situations is to KNOW
what the bus voltage is with the engine at rpms conducive
to full output from the alternator/generator. When you
say "showing positive charge as it normally does", was
there any indication that the MAGNITUDE of that reading
was lower than normal but still positive?
Since you have a generator and in light of the poor
service-life/reliability of generators compared to
alternators, the highest probability for cause of your
observed symptoms is that the generator is not functioning.
Indeed, it may have been out of service for several flights.
I had alternators go bad on some of our training fleet
at 1K1 and the instructors were able to complete a day's
worth of training flights battery only.
Put a battery maintainer on your ship's battery and
leave it attached until the green light comes on (the
charger says the battery has accepted all the energy
it's capable of taking on). Then put a voltmeter on
the bus and start the engine. Minimize loads on the
bus . . . turn off everything and/or pull breakers.
With engine at 2000 your ammeter should show a pretty
healthy charge (generator is replacing energy used
to start the engine) and bus voltage should be above
13.8 and preferably on the order of 14.2 volts.
After the ammeter drops to less than 10% of
plus-side full scale, turn on landing lights.
Ammeter should not appreciably change reading
and bus voltage should stay at or above 13.8
volts.
Failure to meet this requirement suggests that
the regulator is not supporting the the loads
due to either poor voltage or current regulation
-OR- the generator's brushes are too worn. In the
later case, you want to get the situation fixed
ASAP.
Failed brushes take commutator surfaces down
with them and can make repairs more expensive.
If generator brushes were changed out
BEFORE failure based on some time-line, your
overall cost of ownership for generators can be
MUCH less than allowing brushes to go to failure.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical Mystery |
Different situation: What if I have a new B&C alternator, which after starting
runs 13.7-13.8, but never over 14V? I also have a 20A B&C on the vacuum pad,
and it doesn't pick up load. Should I suspect my alternator, or just try to
crank the voltage regulator up?
Brett
Quoting "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>:
> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
> Put a battery maintainer on your ship's battery and
> leave it attached until the green light comes on (the
> charger says the battery has accepted all the energy
> it's capable of taking on). Then put a voltmeter on
> the bus and start the engine. Minimize loads on the
> bus . . . turn off everything and/or pull breakers.
> With engine at 2000 your ammeter should show a pretty
> healthy charge (generator is replacing energy used
> to start the engine) and bus voltage should be above
> 13.8 and preferably on the order of 14.2 volts.
>
> Failed brushes take commutator surfaces down
> with them and can make repairs more expensive.
> If generator brushes were changed out
> BEFORE failure based on some time-line, your
> overall cost of ownership for generators can be
> MUCH less than allowing brushes to go to failure.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical Mystery |
At 10:29 AM 7/3/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Different situation: What if I have a new B&C alternator, which after starting
>runs 13.7-13.8, but never over 14V? I also have a 20A B&C on the vacuum pad,
>and it doesn't pick up load. Should I suspect my alternator, or just try to
>crank the voltage regulator up?
Crank the voltage up first. The fact that your bus voltage comes
up to 13.7 says the alternator IS putting out some energy but
like all alternators, is absolutely limited in what it can produce
based on regulator performance. The main alternator should be
adjusted to 14.2 volts.
Standby alternator performance depends on which regulator you've
installed for the SD-20. If it's an LR3, then you turn the main
alternator OFF, the s/b alternator ON and adjust the LR3 for 14.2
volts with a minimum load on the bus. If you've installed the
SB1 regulator, then you adjust it for 13.8 volts with the main
alternator off.
If you have an LR3 regulator, then the s/b alternator is left
of for normal flight and turned on only when you know that the
main alternator is not functioning. If you have an SB1 regulator,
then normal ops call for BOTH alternators to be ON. If the main
alternator fails, then the bus voltage sags and the s/b alternator
comes on line to pick up the load. If the alternator is overloaded,
then the ALT LOADED light will flash. Reduce loads until the light
stops flashing. Continue flight to approach and landing.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Electrical Mystery |
Bob,
I've passed the info along and he'll give those approaches a try. As one would
expect, there is no volt meter in the Mooney, just an ameter that is next to
worthless in analyzing what is going one.
Thanks
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical Mystery
At 07:44 AM 7/2/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>
>This was related to me by a fellow hangar mate:
>
>While taxing to the runway I got a message on my 430 Garmin and the
>nav/com2 started blinking as if it where loosing power.
>The Mooney is powered by an 0360 A2F lycoming with a generator charging
>system.. I had a normal start-up and all was normal. Engine RPM directly
>after start-up was 700. After a couple of minutes of warm up I take it to
>1000 to allow vacuum to increase. I set my radios and instruments then
>began my taxi.
>
>All indications were normal until half way to the runway. I retrieved a
>message from the 430 that said "no altitude input" and the Nav/Com2
>started blinking. RPM was 1200 during taxi. When I stopped for run-up the
>garmin had shut off completely. I took the RPM to 2000 and it came back on
>and I was able to reset my destination. All other indications were normal.
>Amp gauge was showing a positive charge as it normally does. I turned off
>all my lights and when I dropped the RPM to approximately 1500 the garmin
>and nav/com2 once again lost power.
>
>Is this symptomatic of an electron illness of a particular sort?
The FIRST thing to do in these situations is to KNOW
what the bus voltage is with the engine at rpms conducive
to full output from the alternator/generator. When you
say "showing positive charge as it normally does", was
there any indication that the MAGNITUDE of that reading
was lower than normal but still positive?
Since you have a generator and in light of the poor
service-life/reliability of generators compared to
alternators, the highest probability for cause of your
observed symptoms is that the generator is not functioning.
Indeed, it may have been out of service for several flights.
I had alternators go bad on some of our training fleet
at 1K1 and the instructors were able to complete a day's
worth of training flights battery only.
Put a battery maintainer on your ship's battery and
leave it attached until the green light comes on (the
charger says the battery has accepted all the energy
it's capable of taking on). Then put a voltmeter on
the bus and start the engine. Minimize loads on the
bus . . . turn off everything and/or pull breakers.
With engine at 2000 your ammeter should show a pretty
healthy charge (generator is replacing energy used
to start the engine) and bus voltage should be above
13.8 and preferably on the order of 14.2 volts.
After the ammeter drops to less than 10% of
plus-side full scale, turn on landing lights.
Ammeter should not appreciably change reading
and bus voltage should stay at or above 13.8
volts.
Failure to meet this requirement suggests that
the regulator is not supporting the the loads
due to either poor voltage or current regulation
-OR- the generator's brushes are too worn. In the
later case, you want to get the situation fixed
ASAP.
Failed brushes take commutator surfaces down
with them and can make repairs more expensive.
If generator brushes were changed out
BEFORE failure based on some time-line, your
overall cost of ownership for generators can be
MUCH less than allowing brushes to go to failure.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Is this splice acceptable? |
At 03:48 AM 7/2/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>I've just fabricated the link from one of my Jab dynamo leads, connecting
>this to pin 1 of the regulater and to a 3A in-line fuse, which will
>eventually go the tach of my EIS. I've posted a picture of how I've
>linked the 3 wires together and wanted your opinion on whether it's safe
>or is there a better way to do this? In the picture the white wires on
>the left are from the dynamo, the white(?) on the right go to the voltage
>regulater and the red wire at the bottom is the 3A in-line fuse. Am I ok
>with the piggy-back connector that I've used?
>
>Thanks for your time.
>
>Ian
What you've done is obviously functional. You might
consider bending the tap-tab to make the tap-wire
lay parallel to the main line and then put a larger
piece of heat shrink over the whole thing. A piece
of 1/2" shrink ought to do it.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: fuse placement |
At 04:19 PM 6/28/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>hi all . i did most of my wiring 2 yrs. ago and now i am putting
>everything back together for the last time. my main bus is powered by a
>wire from the hot side of my starter solenoid where the 4ga. wire from the
>battery connects. when i put this together i put the inline fuse [20-30
>amps i dont remember] on the engine side of the firewall before the wire
>entered the cabin. this is a vfr airplane that i would have no intention
>of trying to replace this fuse in flight. i cant imagine it blowing except
>from a dead short of the wire that it protects. is there a reason, other
>than convenience, to move the fuse into the cabin while i am reconnecting
>my wiring? i dont expect it to ever blow.
Most other designers don't expect bus feeder fuses
to blow either . . . that's why they are left out
of most designs. Check the wiring diagrams for any
light TC aircraft . . . you'll find no fuses or
breakers in bus feeders. This is consistent with
the FARS, specifically:
-----------
Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices.
(a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be
installed in all electrical circuits other than--
(1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and
(2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission.
(b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not be
used to protect any other circuit.
(c) Each resettable circuit protective device ("trip free" device in which
the tripping mechanism cannot be overridden by the operating control) must be
designed so that--
(1) A manual operation is required to restore service after tripping; and
(2) If an overload or circuit fault exists, the device will open the
circuit regardless of the position of the operating control.
(d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is
essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so
located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight.
(e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight--
(1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent spare fuses of
each rating, whichever is greater; and
(2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any required pilot.
-----------
I'll direct your attention to paragraph (a)(2) which speaks to
battery feeders and feeders to main power distribution busses
that are typically the largest wires in the airplane and are
not subject to being "smoked" by downstream faults. You can
comfortably leave out the fuse you've cited.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor |
At 02:13 AM 6/28/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Hi All,
>
>My GR EIS has the optional Hall Effect sensor that can be installed in one
>of two locations and I'm after your advice about which would be best on my
>Jab Z-20 installation. My firewall on the engine side is as per Z-20.
>
>The two options are either to monitor battery current (via the + cable) or
>Alternator output. If I monitor the battery then if the indication goes
>negative I'll know that my alternator has gone awol and I have limited
>battery power to get back on the ground (this is only a day/vfr
>machine). Would this be the best option as I can also keep a track on
>battery charging?
>
>What choice have any users of the EIS made on this sensor?
>
>As the Jab has a PM alternator, does this influence anything here?
>
>Many thanks in advance.
You make your choice and if you understand the
significance of the readings presented, then
ANY location is okay.
Ammeter readings are of no value to the pilot
in flight. The system is designed to support
all anticipated loads. Therefore, being able
to watch current draw is only a validation
of the design exercise that you should have
accomplished and trimmed up by the time your
fly-off period is completed.
After this time, the most critical feature to
monitor for the purpose of making in-flight
decisions is bus voltage. Some reading of actual
voltage in the cockpit is useful but the BEST
indicator is a low-volts warning system of
some variety that demands immediate attention
if the bus falls below 13.0 volts.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: S811-1 B&C Starter Contactor |
At 06:26 AM 6/27/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
>Ian, think of the starter contactor as just a large switch that is
>remotely operated by electrical power. Electrical current can flow in
>either direction thru the contacts of the contactor (switch).
>Dale
Correct. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s702wire.jpg
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Grip Flap Motor Control |
At 11:02 AM 6/27/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Can anyone give me some pointers on how I may use the trim buttons in my
>Ray Allen to control my flap motor (I am not going to use the two buttons
>normally used for electic aileron trim control).
>
>I am making the assumption that the current draw of the flap motor is too
>great to wire through the grip directly and that relays are the order of
>the day. I just can't come up with an elegent enough wiring solution.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps_3.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: New to the list |
At 02:13 PM 6/27/2008 +0200, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Im new to the list, Im building a Zodiac 601 XL, I live in Barcelona
>Spain. I hope Ill be able to contribute to this list.
>
>Bye!
>
>
>Alberto Martin
Welcome sir! Please stay with us and let us know if
there's any way we might be of assistance. If you've
not already discovered the website at:
http://aeroelectric.com/
I'll suggest you review the resources posted there.
There's a search engine link for finding documents
that cite specific words.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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At 09:22 PM 6/26/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><aadamson@highrf.com>
>
>Ok, so the docs on the UMA EL lighting says to twist the wires on the AC
>wiring for 8 turns per inch... Ok, but has anyone used shielded wire?
>
>I'm wondering if there is an advantage to using a 2 conductor shielded
>tefzel wire (which is twisted internally) and then just ground the shield at
>one end. Will it be any better or worse than just twisting the 2 wires -
>unshielded that UMA gives you?
>
>For those that don't know, the EL lights use AC (around 100V) to cause the
>lights to glow, it's low current, but AC and I'd just as soon limit any
>source for Hmmmmmmmm...
Unshielded, twisted pair is quite adequate and preferred.
You can use your drill motor to fabricate short lengths
of twisted wire.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Grip Flap Motor Control |
> At 11:02 AM 6/27/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Can anyone give me some pointers on how I may use the trim buttons in my
>> Ray Allen to control my flap motor (I am not going to use the two buttons
>> normally used for electic aileron trim control).
>>
>> I am making the assumption that the current draw of the flap motor is too
>> great to wire through the grip directly and that relays are the order of the
>> day. I just can't come up with an elegent enough wiring solution.
>>
>
> See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps_3.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Aircraft Extras sells a small relay board that is ideal for this
application. See http://aircraftextras.com/RelayBoard1.htm
Ron
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem |
At 01:14 PM 6/27/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi to All
>
>Last week I asked a question about my Odyessey 680 battery not being able
>to keep a charge. I am using the Z13/8 with SD8 self excitation. I thought
>I had checked all the suspects and eliminated them one by one as the
>problem. So as a final step I figured the battery itself was bad. So I
>recharged and disconnected the ground from the firewall. Let it set and
>wouldn't ya know it. It maintained a charge. So back to the drawing board.
>In checking all the possible problems again I noted that that SD8 self
>excitation may be the problem. I have connected the ground back to the
>battery and the firewall. Will wait to see if it draws down again.
>
>With that said who is using the SD8 with self excitation as pre Z25. And
>if so any problems.......
>
>Being tech. challenged in this stuff I am not quite sure how to check the
>SD8 wiring to find the problem if in fact it is. If the battery discharges
>with the SD8 as configured then maybe it is the problem. I will recharge
>the battery and disconnect the SD8 from the battery contactor and see what
>happens. If the battery maintains charge with the SD8 removed I will know
>that the SD8 is the problem if not....................????????
If you've followed the wiring suggested in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8N.pdf
then the self-excitation circuitry . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Self_Excitation_Experiment.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_SelfExcite_A.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_SelfExcite_B.jpg
. . . is disconnected when the airplane is parked.
If your SD-8 control relay is connected UPSTREAM
of the filter capacitor, then the resistor across the
capacitor WOULD produce a constant load on the battery.
Did you make a determination of magnitude on discharge
current? The resistor cited would load the battery to
the tune of 12 milliamperes. Assuming an 17 a.h.
battery, this load would take about 750 hours to
use about half the battery's energy.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Capacity tester |
At 04:49 PM 6/24/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Last Nov or so you were developing a battery capacity tester that would
>utilize the e bus.
>Status ?
It's in the works. I'm in the process of re-organizing the
AeroElectric Connection business model. I've hired my son
and daughter-in-law effective 7-1. Their first tasks involve
getting a house bought in M.L. KS, getting their house in
Wichita sold and then helping me convert the shop spaces
in my M.L. residence to support the AeroElectric Connection.
When the move is accomplished, we'll concentrate on getting
about a dozen new products up on the website, one of which
is the E-Bus Controller/Battery Capacity Meter.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem |
> Date: Thu=2C 3 Jul 2008 10:46:59 -0500> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.c
om> From: nuckolls.bob@cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroEle
rt L. Nuckolls=2C III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>> > At 01:14 PM 6/27/2008 -060
0=2C you wrote:> > >Hi to All> >> >Last week I asked a question about my Od
yessey 680 battery not being able > >to keep a charge. I am using the Z13/8
with SD8 self excitation. I thought > >I had checked all the suspects and
eliminated them one by one as the > >problem. So as a final step I figured
the battery itself was bad. So I > >recharged and disconnected the ground f
rom the firewall. Let it set and > >wouldn't ya know it. It maintained a ch
arge. So back to the drawing board. > >In checking all the possible problem
s again I noted that that SD8 self > >excitation may be the problem. I have
connected the ground back to the > >battery and the firewall. Will wait to
see if it draws down again.> >> >With that said who is using the SD8 with
self excitation as pre Z25. And > >if so any problems.......> >> >Being tec
h. challenged in this stuff I am not quite sure how to check the > >SD8 wir
ing to find the problem if in fact it is. If the battery discharges > >with
the SD8 as configured then maybe it is the problem. I will recharge > >the
battery and disconnect the SD8 from the battery contactor and see what > >
happens. If the battery maintains charge with the SD8 removed I will know >
>that the SD8 is the problem if not....................????????
Bob
Thanks for the reply.
I am still trouble shooting this problem.
I have wired the SD8...has shown in Z25....but I am now going back to insur
e that I in fact have it wired according to Z25.
> If you've followed the wiring suggested in> > http://www.aeroelectric.co
m/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8N.pdf> > then the self-excitation circui
try . . .> > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Self_
Excitation_Experiment.jpg> > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/S
D8_SelfExcite_A.jpg> > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8_Sel
fExcite_B.jpg> > . . . is disconnected when the airplane is parked.
I will check this as per instructionsabove....> If your SD-8 control relay
is connected UPSTREAM> of the filter capacitor=2C then the resistor across
the> capacitor WOULD produce a constant load on the battery.
I ahve not done this yet and must confess I would need some info on how to
determine the magnitude of the discharge.> Did you make a determination of
magnitude on discharge> current?
In the past experiments I have done.....SD8 wired and connected the battery
discharges from 11.9 to under 7.5 as shown on the D-120 EMS. When the SD8
disconnected there is very lttle if any discharge during a 48 hour test run
.
The resistor cited would load the battery to> the tune of 12 milliamperes.
Assuming an 17 a.h.> battery=2C this load would take about 750 hours to> us
e about half the battery's energy.> > Bob . . .>
I do appreciate your help/advice.
The plane is in the final stages of manufacture (RV7A). All other panel con
nections seem OK.
P-Mags not connected (they are in for software update). I have isolated the
main bus by pulling all the fuses for these components. Essential bus has
most of the avionics/instrument package wired to this bus. I have checked e
ach for energy draw on the battery and each has shown no desire for energy
when appropriatly turned off. I ahve checked the trickle charge for the D-1
00 and it like wise is not the problem in my situation.
One final bit of information. With the SD8 connected as per my wiring of th
e Z25 (must admit I may be wrong in my wiring...but still think I am correc
t.)=2C when I disconnect the battery ground from the battery terminal there
is a click in the SD8 (s704-1) relay. When I touch the ground to the post
there is another click in the s704-1. So I changed the NO to the NC and the
NC to the NO on the s704-1. Still I get the same click as I remove and rep
lace the ground on the battery.
All my electrical problems in the past have been my miswiring/misunderstand
ing of the diagrams...or both....and once the sun came up on my minds under
standing and shed some clear light the problem has been easily solved. I be
lieve i have a problem in how i have wired up Z25........once I see the pro
blem I will say "DAH".....................
Frank @ 1L8...RV7A....last 920 details....I THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Thank you!! I=B4m reading all your post day after day and I=B4m amazed abou
t
your tech level. I know I have to learn a lot to contribute on the list.
Thanks a lot for accepting my subscription.
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
2008/7/3 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>:
> nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 02:13 PM 6/27/2008 +0200, you wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I=B4m new to the list, I=B4m building a Zodiac 601 XL, I live in Barcelo
na
>> Spain. I hope I=B4ll be able to contribute to this list.
>>
>> Bye!
>>
>>
>> Alberto Martin
>>
>
> Welcome sir! Please stay with us and let us know if
> there's any way we might be of assistance. If you've
> not already discovered the website at:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/
>
> I'll suggest you review the resources posted there.
> There's a search engine link for finding documents
> that cite specific words.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Skybright Strobes for Sale |
I have a brand new, unused, unmounted set of Skybright Strobes from Airplanegear.com
for sale. I am asking $210 + shipping for the whole shebang. I got a belly
strobe from a friend, cheap, and will use that for now. Paypal is good.
Thanks for looking,
Mike
mikefapex AT gmail DOT com / 303-641-1282
>From the original invoice:
ITEMS - February 15, 2008:
1 - Skybright streamlined dual strobe system..........$ 220.00
2 - 20' strobe extension lead cables.......$ 12.65@... 25.30
2 - 15' strobe extension lead cables....... 11.50@... 23.00
2 - spare male connectors with pins................... n/c
2 - spare female connectors with pins................. n/c
subtotal.....................................$ 268.30
Priority Mail shipping...................... 9.50
total amount due.............................$ 277.80
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191127#191127
Message 21
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| Subject: | Endurance bus load |
I am starting to wire an RV9A using Z-13/8 and I came up with these
loads on the E-Bus:
Item Continuous Intermittent
AFS-EFIS 2.5
Trio A/P 1.0 1.0
Altitude Hold 1.0 1.0
Garmin x-ponder 1.0 (0.9-1.85)
Garmin SL-40 0.3 3.0 (2.1-3.2)
Trim Servo 0.2
This adds up to 5.8 amps continuous and 5.2 intermittent for a total of
11 amps. In practice, I would not expect all of the intermittent loads
to hit at the same time but how do I configure the E-Bus?
Should the E-bus be powered from the battery bus through a relay and a
10 amp fuse or 15 amp fuse? Am I correct in assuming that the SD-8 will
charge the battery when the load is less than 8 amps and the battery
will make up the difference when the load is greater than 8 amps?
John Morgensen
RV9A
Grumman AA1B-150 (a.k.a RV Trainer)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram |
How's the symbol and grid system coming? I recently got TurboCAD off
E-bay and need all the help I can get.
john
az_gila wrote:
>
> I'm presently creating a set of symbols for Turbocad.
>
> One secret to easy aircraft schematics is the use of good symbols and an appropriate
grid system. If the two are set up correctly, then everything literally
"snaps into place".
>
> I started with Bob N. schematics, but when they converted to TurboCad all (if
any) grid information was lost.
>
> I'm making a Z-11 copy with these symbols for another RV-7A builder, and will
publish them when done (a week or so).
>
> Look for them on VAF.
>
> gil A - just completed 18 pages for my simple RV-6A - Dynon 180, GX-65 GPS/com
and KY-97A com.
>
> PS for the $$, the old versions of TurboCad are great value. $15 or so on e-bay
for a legal copy of a previous version.
>
>
> larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Dave,
>> I've found TurboCAD very nice for doing electrical plans and 3D drawings
>> as well. It's a full featured program
>> that's reasonable to buy. After a life with AutoCAD and ProE, it's a
>> better personal solution for the individual designer.
>> These drawings were done in version 10, but they've been maintained thru
>> version 15.
>> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif
>> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/eltdwg.gif
>> Awesome program easy to learn............
>>
>> Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com
>>
>>
>> Dave VanLanen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to
>>> create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found
>>> any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of
>>> creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187890#187890
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance bus load |
I apologize for the formatting in the previous post.
The continuous load is:
AFS-EFIS 2.5
A/P 1.0
Alt Hold 1.0
X-ponder 1.0
SL-40 rx 0.3
The intermittent load is:
A/P Servo 1.0
Alt Hold Servo 1.0
SL-40 xmit 3.0
Trim Servo 0.2
Thanks again,
John Morgensen
--------
RV-9A - Fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150 (RV-Trainer) Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191134#191134
Message 24
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem |
> > Did you make a determination of magnitude on discharge
> > current?
>
>I hqve not done this yet and must confess I would need some info on how to
>determine the magnitude of the discharge.
Put your multimeter in the DC current mode,
put the airplane into a "parked" configuration.
Disconnect either lead of the battery and put
the meter in series with the disconnected lead.
>
>In the past experiments I have done.....SD8 wired and connected the
>battery discharges from 11.9 to under 7.5 as shown on the D-120 EMS. When
>the SD8 disconnected there is very lttle if any discharge during a 48 hour
>test run.
>
>The resistor cited would load the battery to
> > the tune of 12 milliamperes. Assuming an 17 a.h.
> > battery, this load would take about 750 hours to
> > use about half the battery's energy.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>I do appreciate your help/advice.
>
>The plane is in the final stages of manufacture (RV7A). All other panel
>connections seem OK.
>P-Mags not connected (they are in for software update). I have isolated
>the main bus by pulling all the fuses for these components. Essential bus
>has most of the avionics/instrument package wired to this bus. I have
>checked each for energy draw on the battery and each has shown no desire
>for energy when appropriatly turned off. I ahve checked the trickle charge
>for the D-100 and it like wise is not the problem in my situation.
>One final bit of information. With the SD8 connected as per my wiring of
>the Z25 (must admit I may be wrong in my wiring...but still think I am
>correct.), when I disconnect the battery ground from the battery terminal
>there is a click in the SD8 (s704-1) relay. When I touch the ground to the
>post there is another click in the s704-1. So I changed the NO to the NC
>and the NC to the NO on the s704-1. Still I get the same click as I remove
>and replace the ground on the battery.
AHA! When the SD-8 is turned OFF, the relay coil is open
circuit. What you describe says that the relay coil controlling
the SD-8 is energized when the SD-8 control switch is in the
OFF position. This suggests that the switch is wired upside-down.
With the switch in the OFF position (down), the center and the
upper switch terminals are connected. I suspect these are the
terminals you're using. Move the upper wire to the lower terminal
which will be connected only when the switch is in the ON position.
The wiring error as described puts 12 mA cited in the earlier post
PLUS about 100 mA for the relay coil itself. This total of 112 mA
would use up 1/2 of a 17 ah battery in about 3 days.
>
>All my electrical problems in the past have been my
>miswiring/misunderstanding of the diagrams...or both....and once the sun
>came up on my minds understanding and shed some clear light the problem
>has been easily solved. I believe i have a problem in how i have wired up
>Z25........once I see the problem I will say "DAH".....................
Fix the switch wiring and I think your problem will go away.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: New to the list |
At 08:59 PM 7/3/2008 +0200, you wrote:
>Thank you!! Im reading all your post day after day and Im amazed about
>your tech level. I know I have to learn a lot to contribute on the list.
>
>Thanks a lot for accepting my subscription.
No problem. That's what we're all doing here . . . sharing
the inventions crafted of simple-ideas that make our
airplanes the most cost-effective machines in the air.
You're not obligated to contribute except to TELL OTHERS about
this resource when what we suggest is successful and
TELL US when they are not. There are about 1800 folks
on the list who do not regularly contribute but who
find value in watching the words go by . . . else they
would have un-subscribed.
I retired from formal employment in this business
exactly a year ago. I continue to service both
the type-certificated and owner-built industries
and learning new things every day.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Grip Flap Motor Control |
Bob,
Looking at your flaps3 diagram, does that function with two sets of stick switches
wired in parallel? My reading is that the worst case is for both relays
to be energised which leaves the motor floating with both leads at 12v and nothing
happens until the pilots come to some sort of agreement. Is that correct
because I have this niggle in the back of my mind which says I am missing something?
Thanks, Selwyn
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191176#191176
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance bus load |
At 12:54 PM 7/3/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I am starting to wire an RV9A using Z-13/8 and I came up with these loads
>on the E-Bus:
>
>Item Continuous Intermittent
>AFS-EFIS 2.5
>Trio A/P 1.0 1.0
>Altitude Hold 1.0 1.0
>Garmin x-ponder 1.0 (0.9-1.85)
>Garmin SL-40 0.3 3.0 (2.1-3.2)
>Trim Servo 0.2
>
>This adds up to 5.8 amps continuous and 5.2 intermittent for a total of 11
>amps. In practice, I would not expect all of the intermittent loads to hit
>at the same time but how do I configure the E-Bus?
>Should the E-bus be powered from the battery bus through a relay and a 10
>amp fuse or 15 amp fuse?
Since Z-13/8 has always been designed to support a
10A e-bus load, it probably should have featured the
robust alternate feed relay. I've updated Z-13/8 to
revision O where I've added the alternate feed relay
and self-excitation to the SD-8. The latest drawing
is at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8O.pdf
> Am I correct in assuming that the SD-8 will charge the battery when the
> load is less than 8 amps and the battery will make up the difference when
> the load is greater than 8 amps?
Yes . . . sort of. Actually, if you have a voltmeter
on the e-bus, you can load the SD-8 until the bus falls
to 13.0 volts. Not enough to charge the battery but
too high to discharge the battery. At this condition
you can probably get close to 10A out of the SD-8
and hold whatever the battery offers in reserve for
approach to landing. And yes, the intermittent loads
are not significant to the total energy picture . . .
the battery can be tapped for those short intervals
without changing the outcome of your experience.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Problem with 2-70 substitute? |
Bob,
This is a snippet from a May 12th list message:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
A miniature version of the 2-70 is a C&K 7215SYZQ available
from Digikey at:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CKN1134-N
D
Wiring for this switch is illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/3-Ch_Voltmeter.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
When you follow that link for the CKN1134-ND you get C&K 7215SYZQE (note the
trailing "E") which I ordered from Allied Electronics but it does not appear
to be a "progressive transfer" type of switch.
A May 18th post of yours has the following link:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CKN1495-ND
which is a different switch, a 7215TZQE. I hate to order that one if it is
not correct but I can't make out how to tell which one might be "progressive
transfer".
Of course, it could just be that I don't know how to wire it. I have your
drawing titled "3 Ch Progressive Transfer Voltmeter Selector Switch" dated
5/12/08 Rev.A.
Thanks,
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Wiring/Plumbing
Eggenfellner Subaru E6T on firewall
N808AF reserved
Alexander City, AL
256-329-2001
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with 2-70 substitute? |
At 10:14 PM 7/3/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>This is a snippet from a May 12th list message:
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
> A miniature version of the 2-70 is a C&K 7215SYZQ available
> from Digikey at:
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CKN1134-N
>D
>
> Wiring for this switch is illustrated at:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/3-Ch_Voltmeter.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
>When you follow that link for the CKN1134-ND you get C&K 7215SYZQE (note the
>trailing "E") which I ordered from Allied Electronics but it does not appear
>to be a "progressive transfer" type of switch.
Hmmmm . . . according to the Digikey catalog excerpt at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/CKN1134-7215SYZQE.pdf
and CK catalog exerpt at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/7000_18june.pdf
the 7215 is indeed a progressive transfer switch. The trailing
E means epoxy seal. The magic numbers are 7215 which is momentary
both extremes (2-70), 7213 which is momentary one extreme (2-50),
and 7211 with no momentary positions (2-10). Note the asterisk
on all part numbers of this series referring to supplementary
wiring data to make it a 3-way switch. Note also the terminal
connection data also highlighted that describes the typical
progressive transfer functionality.
If the switch you got from Allied is a 7215, then some work
with an ohmmeter should confirm or deny the functionality
highlighted on the second page of the CK catalog excerpt.
Bob . . .
>A May 18th post of yours has the following link:
>
>http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CKN1495-ND
>
>
>which is a different switch, a 7215TZQE. I hate to order that one if it is
>not correct but I can't make out how to tell which one might be "progressive
>transfer".
This is also a 7215 but with a different handle.
>Of course, it could just be that I don't know how to wire it. I have your
>drawing titled "3 Ch Progressive Transfer Voltmeter Selector Switch" dated
>5/12/08 Rev.A.
Hmmm . . . on page 9 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Switch_Ratings.pdf
I show two conventions for switch numbering between Carling
and Microswitch. I see that C&K has yet another convention.
In the mid position we need connections between 1-2, 5-6 to
match the AEC drawings. So, swap the columns. Looking in the
back of the switch and keyway up, treat it as if it were a
Carling switch numbered as shown in left view and it should
work.
Bob . . .
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