---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/10/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:52 AM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (darinh) 2. 06:20 AM - Re: Fuse Sizing (Jeff Page) 3. 08:55 AM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Fuse Sizing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:31 AM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Paul) 6. 11:03 AM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Bill Boyd) 7. 01:39 PM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 03:35 PM - Z-13/8 Revision P (Lee Logan) 9. 03:51 PM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (rampil) 10. 04:09 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Revision P (Sam Hoskins) 11. 04:59 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Revision P (Sam Hoskins) 12. 07:02 PM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Bill Schlatterer) 13. 07:06 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Revision P (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 09:11 PM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Paul) 15. 10:19 PM - Internal regulator alternator discussion (Paul) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:10 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippondenso alternator question From: "darinh" Thanks guys for the input...mine works without the lamp or the lamp circuit altogether. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (Final Assembly) 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192089#192089 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:24 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuse Sizing > In the case of the ATC plastic devices, the data shows > http://www.egauges.com/vdo_mult3.asp?Type=Voltmeter12&Series=Cyber_Red&Units=E . . . that you can probablyuse a 10A fuse in a > circuit that draws 10A continuously. The above link points to a voltmeter, not a graph of fuse performance, which I would like to see. The rest of the post answered my questions, thank you kindly, so I can continue with my design. Do not archive Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question At 06:45 PM 7/9/2008 -0700, you wrote: I agree that its been much discussed in the past however there are many false and remaining incorrect mis stated comments in the past that simply do not apply to the most common ND alternator. These false statements remain in the past unchallenged but still remain not correct with respect to ND alternators. Okay. I do appologize. Forgive me for assuming too much. Please allow me to back up and start anew . . . Other than MY having tested many ND alternators as well as a couple of other brands of Internally regulated Japan brand alternators .I question your accusation that I have made absolute errors (or any errors of any sort) in my statements. For example, all the ND alternators I have tested can be turned on and off while running and producing power. They also can be "B" lead disconnected under load with no damage to the alternator IF the alternator contacts are rated properly ( the common often used contactor are not rated to disconnect the load dump voltages). The addition of the proper contact voltage and proper power rated transorb is required to protect any low voltage contactor from arcing and passing the higher load dump voltage back to the bus. Do you have schematics that describe the test setup along with materials callouts and a description of test conditions that you can share with us for an exemplar test? The subject alternators have internal transorbs but may overheat under the long contact bounce of the common contactor, in particular if that contactor has a diode across the coil which extends the opening or the contact from around 5ms to as long as 50 ms with, in several cases, major arcing of dozens of arc pulses. Using the industry recommended transorb across the contactor coil minimizes the arcing and opening delay but does not resolve the contact voltage rating which is overstressed and demonstrated to arc during my testing. Its one of the repeatable tests that ranged from 2 amps to 40 amps load. I have tested, documented and published tests results that illustrate my findings with respect to various arc suppression methodologies for relays and contactors. The increased contact drop out delay for the most agressive arc suppression technique (plain diode) was predictable and demonstrated in every test. However, contact spreading velocity seems to be affected more strongly by spring rates and growing air-gaps between coil core and armature. Only the slightest slowing of spreading velocity could be detected between NO suppression and the most agressive suppression. the delta-t was on the order of 2-4 percent. From those tests I extrapolated that while the contactor was certainly slower to begin opening, it was not significantly slower in spreading once the armature became detached from the coil core. I have performed 100's of repeatable tests to support the analysis of the above statements including the contact arcing under load of the common contactor.. As well as fast opening and lack of arcing with the Kilovac in "B" lead testing. It's an acknowledged fact that the Kilovac devices are a different cat bred for improved performance under certain operating conditions. But to avoid mixing apples and oranges, I will confine the current discussion to more rudimentary devices like those suggested in the Z-figures. Given the numbers of tests cited, I presume that you have data recorded from those tests that illustrate your findings? This is where rubber hits the road my friend. If your findings differ from my own, then there is some variable between our testing conditions or philosophy that will explain the differences. As teachers, we should KNOW what those variables are so that they become part of our stock and trade in helping others understand. (1) So, the first difference to be resolved is why your findings report significant differences in arcing between spreading contacts that are dependent upon style of arc suppression used. My findings include ND alternators commonly used at the time by NSI, Vans and others in the mid 1990's have the following features. 1. The IG terminal turns on and off the alternator under load. Note Its safe as far as the alternator is concerned to turn off the alternator under load. It must be done with properly rated contactors however. I'm confused here. Assuming the IG terminal exerts absolute control over the inner workings of the alternator then there is no need to utilize an external b-lead contactor. Alternators and generators in aircraft and other DC systems have been turned on and off under ALL conditions of load since day-one by exerting positive control over the field current. The schematics of all internally regulated alternators I've been privileged to review take the IG lead onto the integrated circuit chip for the regulator. For the astute practitioner of failure mode effects analysis, this raises some flags as to the system should be designed to DEPEND on functionality of the IG lead as an absolute control. Damage to the chip can obviously cause loss of regulation (over voltage) but it could also cause loss of absolute control. Another variability comes from my interpretation of your words that suggest the alternator control philosophy you're citing is not unlike that which is described in the first schematic of: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf Here, I've assumed that EVEN IF the IG lead does exert absolute control over a normally operating alternator, it cannot be depended upon to exert that control under certain failures of the integrated circuit. Augmentation of that control is called for in the form of a b-lead disconnect device of some suitable design. (2) so another clarification of control philosophies suggests that EVEN IF the IG lead works as you've described in all ND alternators you've tested, would you not agree that the same functionality cannot be depended upon for other brands? Further, since we have no way to guarantee our builder friends that every device marked "ND" functions the same way . . . ESPECIALLY if overhauled by an after market activity? 2, I have been unable to cause alternator failure even with arcing "B" lead contactor. Both NSI and Vans at the time was selling rebuilt alternators and Vans told customers not to use any type of "B" lead crowbar device due to alternator failure. Note: This I verified with a personal phone call at the time to Vans. I have no evidence to suggest your OVP crowbar was the cause but I do suspect the common contactor was a possible cause due to observed excessive contact arcing during the extended opening of the contacts due in part to the simple diode used and the contactor contact V rating. Interesting hypothesis that argues with my own observations that generated question (1) above. 3. No ND I tested locked up and could not be turned off at any time safely. 4. No ND required anything connected to the "L" terminal. Good data points. but in light of potential for variances that prompted question (2) COMBINED with the desire to offer a control philosophy that works with ANY brand of alternator, would you not agree that a 100 ohm resistor tied between "L" and "IG" is a sure bet even if not necessary for the particular alternator in-hand? Clearly its not possible to test all of the hundreds of types of small shell ND alternators. Further rebuilt alternators may have internal regulators with difference performance as our application has the alternator wired differently and the aftermarket rebuilt alternators may have regulators that only work when installed in an automobile as the original application. ABSOLUTELY! This is the exact thinking that drives my system design suggestions. The goal is NOT to have my readers worrying over all the possibilities for his/her particular alternator in-hand but to offer the simplest, most universal solution that is free of such worries. 5. Its safe to open the "B" lead under load if the contactor is rated for at least 200V contact rating. Only the KIlovac and similar HV contactors have proper voltage ratings. The common contractors for 12V system battery and starter etc have contacts only rated for under 50V max during the opening process. They can tolerate higher voltage across the contacts when the contacts are open. They will arc during the opening of an alternator load and the result may cause damage to both the alternator and aircraft bus. Okay, here's where we need to talk about system conditions at time of opening. IF the alternator is being shut down with all equipment operating normally (alternator output is under control of a functioning regulator) then upward excursions of b-lead voltage is limited by the over-shoot response of the alternator/regulator combination if the alternator is under load at time of disconnect. (3) The next question goes to the magnitude, duration and energy contained in the transient event of a suddenly unloaded alternator. The magnitude of these numbers are CRITICAL to understanding the energy that either needs to be stood off (by sizing of clamping devices like transorbs) or withstood (by sizing circuit breaking capabilities of the b-lead contactor). With the testing you've accomplished, have you quantified this event and can you share that data? Do not use a common diode across a common contactor coil and do not use a common 45V contactor contact rating as either or both actions greatly increase of alternator damage. (4) This raises some flags. Exactly how does the arcing across the spreading contacts of the b-lead disconnect device stress the alternator? The arc is a sustained (if not smoothly varying) current that is no greater than the alternator is rated to deliver. I think we can agree that the voltage available is no greater than the magnitude of over-shoot transients which I presume you've sized and can describe in question (3). Perhaps you can substantiate your statements with some of your testing of the commonly used ND alternator. Please provide the Lester number so we all can verify your test results.. As I mentioned in earlier posts, I try to craft design philosophies that are NOT constrained by selection of specific parts. My design goals are (A) craft the simplest, lowest cost of ownership, failure tolerant system. (B) deduce ways in which the widest selection of components can be utilized IRRESPECTIVE of their internal operating differences. For me, this discussion has never been about the deifying the ND products or vilifying any other product. It's been about deducing ways that my readers can use any alternator they choose. When this goal is achieved, the greatest concern for selection is that the thing might be a piece of junk . . . but it doesn't matter because we've designed a system that if failure tolerant. I.e., ALL failures are a maintenance expense, not a safety issue. My reply to the questioner was intended to be general as he did not state the exact ND Lester number and was it rebuilt or new. With out knowing that there is no absolute recommendation on how to wire it up. . . . and I'll suggest that my response for the resistor was a universally applicable approach that didn't care about make, model, or functionality of the alternator. Yes there are alternators of different brands (and perhaps some ND do also, but not the common ones that I have tested.) that lock up and others that require a lamp in the wiring to start. perhaps there are also other that cannot survive a load dump but none in the industry will state that their regulators lack the universal load dump internal protection (except that load dumps resulting form extended arcing from contacts or broken wiring are not protected as overheating or the protection Transorb is possible. (5) This gives rise to the next question that goes to the un-quantified "extended arcing". Folks in industry a fond of talking about such things without numbers that allow a system integrator to artfully integrate their products into a consumers system. You have repeated the phraseology without quantification. It's my goal that my partner in Douglas-Nuckolls LLC will help me get this critter . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand/Alternator_Test_Stand_1.jpg up and running so that I can expand my personal knowledge of these questions that have been CRITICAL details of alternator discussions on this List for 10 years. To date they've NEVER answered by anyone. If you have access to this kind of equipment and test articles right now, then I'll suggest you are in the very best position to advance the state of our art and the quality of our discussions to the benefit of anyone interested in reading them. Your cheep un-substantiated comment that I have made absolute errors does not suit your normally nice style. Lets keep the discussion technical and not call me a person making false statements please. Agreed. I let my frustrations with another matter bleed over into my work on this List. Explainable but not excusable. I beg your indulgence. No respectable person can let that cheep shot pass. If I made a error please prove it. How many stock ND alternators used in aircraft have you tested???? My concerns come from the notion that every device having the ND logo on it is "stock" or "golden" . . . especially when we know NOTHING about the pedigree of the alternator in question and even less about how the regulators are crafted. Perhaps I missed it in the past and if so I apologize if you show me the statement. It has been more than 10 years ago when many of my testing was done and perhaps My memory has failed. To me the discussion on this years ago was long settled with you on one side and Jet Pilot George (for one) on the other side. Describe "sides" . . . my antagonists basically offered the notion that everything ND was golden substantiated by nothing more that marketing hype. I have personally tested NO internally regulated alternators. ALL of my work with aircraft alternators and generators has been done on the legacy products that prevail in type-certificated aircraft. I'm moving toward the capability to test such devices as noted above because the data I need for artful design is has not been forthcoming from other sources. Perhaps you can assist. (6) There is one more case for alternator control that involves understanding how to handle the fully-excited runaway condition with an external b-lead contactor . . . but this is a special case that begs a separate discussion. For now, if you could share what you know that goes totward (1) through (5) I'd be more pleased than you can know. As side comment many regulators have a OVP built in that limits the output voltage to around 16V. That claim has been made before . . . and in one discussion, a reader suggested that when a pilot experienced an ov condition (that puffed up his battery and zorked a number of ship's accessories) that the ov condtion had to have been limited to something on the order of 16 volts. I presume this statement came from an interpretation of marketing hype for a particular product . . . with no guarantees that the failed device in the guys's airplane had the same feature. I've often cited the dearth of real data on internally regulated alternators. This device has been cited many times in discussions here on the List. http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/MC33092A.pdf This is the ONLY hard copy of an internal regulator design I've been privileged to study. If you trace through the functionality of this device, you'll discover that there is OV warning, but no OV protection. Is this 20+ year old device a good example of what's available today? Who knows? If anyone does know, it has not been shared here on the List. Given the lack of information, I have to proceed with worst case assumptions that treat the built in regulators with no more reverence than external regulators of yesteryear . . . hence failure tolerant no matter what. If we DID have detailed data on ANY brand and part number of alternator/regulator . . . it would be of little value to me as purveyor of universally applicable advice. It's not my goal to help Joe rivet-bucker integrate a particular part into his system . . . the goal is to offer ways he can integrate any part with some reasonable sense of confidence in failure tolerant design. This will not protect against all failures thus an external OVP is required. I have experienced 2 regulator failures (over the past 50 years in autos where the output jumped from 14+ to 16V and held the output there. One was the common external regulatro YOU long have recommended as a low cost "ford" style. The "ford" style has never been a consistently performing product. The first pass at this design was this critter . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_EM_Reg.jpg Pure electro-mechanical. No OV protection. I designed the first OV protection module . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Cessna_OVModule.gif that was applied to this regulator at Cessna many moons ago. Over the years, the EM regulators were replaced with solid state devices from a number of suppliers including Ford and typical of this package . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_SS_Reg.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_SS_Reg_open.jpg At this point, features and functionality from model to model begins to diverge. I've seen them offered with over current and over voltage protection built in . . . but with no definitive descriptions of how those features worked. I.e., no way that the prudent aircraft systems designer can accomplish FMEA and deduce suitability to the task. Therefore, in satisfaction of my goal for universally applicable advice, I assume that ALL such devices are applicable to my designs if augmented with OV protection of predicable functionality illustrated in the Z-figurs. Please do not reply and waste bandwidth and all of our time unless you have specific test data to prove your response. Past history posts that do not include backed up with actual testing ase just opinion and not worth considering. I will request the same courtesy from you and I've cited the items of divergence/confusion above. I have provided detail process and numerical data on every experiment I've conducted. It's my intent to gather the data we all need, everyone talks about but nobody possesses or has shared if they do possess it. Toward this goal, no amount of bandwidth is wasted. Paul PS: I do not want to start another often widening discussion. Perhaps I should have remained silent but you stated you were out of town and I have had a lot of experience including some from other groups (who in error) make general statements that ND alternators require a light across the IG and L connections. Further I have had the impression you have yet to test any internal ND or any other brand alternator. This was to be done after you had the test stand up and running. The discussion will be no wider than necessary to achieve an understanding of how internally regulated alternators function to the degree that we can craft the most universal techniques for using them. I have witnessed and peer reviewed test setup and test results to support the above statements. Only the conclusions have ever been document as I felt at the time there was no reason to do more than I did. I simply am not interested in trying to prove anything to anything just pass on real test results that proved how the auto internal reg alternator can be safely used. We can TALK about tests until you-know-where freezes over but none of this talk has universal value until the simple-ideas of the physics and magnitude of effects are documented and shared. Critics of movies and restaurants can wax eloquently about their favorite topics . . . and some individuals find value in reading their words. You and I are on the other side of the stove where understanding exactly what and why ingredients go into a recipe for success is critical to understanding. Kindest regards, Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuse Sizing At 09:16 AM 7/10/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >>In the case of the ATC plastic devices, the data shows >>http://www.egauges.com/vdo_mult3.asp?Type=Voltmeter12&Series=Cyber_Red&Units=E >>. . . that you can probablyuse a 10A fuse in a >>circuit >that draws 10A continuously. > >The above link points to a voltmeter, not a graph of fuse performance, >which I would like to see. Sorry 'bout that. Wrong link on the clipboard. Try http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ Here you'll find data on a large number of Bussmann products including the ATC plastic fuses. In particular, note the characteristics of the ANL devices. Those critters are REALLY robust! A review of these data sheets will reinforce the notion that not all devices called "fuses" have the same or even similar performance. Each product was designed to meet the design goals for a particular task. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:55 AM PST US From: "Paul" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question > THANK YOU for your very nice reply!! > > Please bare :-) with me as the data I have is long many years filed away > and will be hard to resurrect a lot of it other than my conclusions. > > The results were so clear to myself and several other local peers as well > as Eric (on the east coast) I simply pressed on. I had no intent to come > up with a universal solution when the specific ND type was discovered to > meet what my group felt was a reasonable recommendation. Low cost, small > and light weight, readily available, and 50-55 amp output which fit most > applications including LYC and most popular auto engine conversions. > > I will try to provide information to discuss one part at a time as this > email includes a large range of subjects and can end up being 1,000 lines > long and too long for others to follow. Thus it may take as many as 8-10 > different subject strings to cover each subject area > > I have specific experience (including test stand load tests up to 40 amps > load) with several types of ND alternators which are different in several > respects. Its clear to me that blessing all ND alternators as suitable is > not true. I also have some experience with two brands of alternators. > These were as I recall MI and HI brands??. I need to look up details as > they had undesirable design features (at least to me) like requiring a > lamp and or locking up. Also the reported failure rate in autos was of > concern. I do not agree that the objective of one solution fits all > brands/types is a reasonable solution but good luck. With my research 99% > of internal reg alternators are ND and of the hundreds of types of ND > available only a couple types are used in any quantity. Thus I settled on > one brand ND and one type for general use. Today there is a second ND Type > that is slightly larger and heavier that is 80-90 amp output that might be > a better choice for the more complex OBAM being today. > > In any event its now my turn to start one subject at a time in replying to > your comments and questions. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question > > >> >> >> At 06:45 PM 7/9/2008 -0700, you wrote: >> >> I agree that its been much discussed in the past however there are many >> false and remaining incorrect mis stated comments in the past that simply >> do not apply to the most common ND alternator. These false statements >> remain in the past unchallenged but still remain not correct with respect >> to ND alternators. >> >> Okay. I do appologize. Forgive me for assuming too >> much. Please allow me to back up and start anew . . . > > snipped. >> >> > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:52 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question Now THIS I'm looking forward to, not with blood-lust, but just the anticipation that we are going to _get somewhere_ as an OBAM community on this lightweight IR alternator issue, with confidence and without too much frustration. Many others, I suspect, are like me - not wanting to do the lab research but certainly to understand the research of others, and waiting patiently for a turn-key solution that works for our planes with a minimum of fuss and procurement headaches. Play nice, gentlemen. The students are watching :-) -Bill B On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Paul wrote: > > THANK YOU for your very nice reply!! >> >> Please bare :-) with me as the data I have is long many years filed away >> and will be hard to resurrect a lot of it other than my conclusions. >> >> The results were so clear to myself and several other local peers as well >> as Eric (on the east coast) I simply pressed on. I had no intent to come up >> with a universal solution when the specific ND type was discovered to meet >> what my group felt was a reasonable recommendation. Low cost, small and >> light weight, readily available, and 50-55 amp output which fit most >> applications including LYC and most popular auto engine conversions. >> >> I will try to provide information to discuss one part at a time as this >> email includes a large range of subjects and can end up being 1,000 lines >> long and too long for others to follow. Thus it may take as many as 8-10 >> different subject strings to cover each subject area >> >> I have specific experience (including test stand load tests up to 40 amps >> load) with several types of ND alternators which are different in several >> respects. Its clear to me that blessing all ND alternators as suitable is >> not true. I also have some experience with two brands of alternators. These >> were as I recall MI and HI brands??. I need to look up details as they had >> undesirable design features (at least to me) like requiring a lamp and or >> locking up. Also the reported failure rate in autos was of concern. I do not >> agree that the objective of one solution fits all brands/types is a >> reasonable solution but good luck. With my research 99% of internal reg >> alternators are ND and of the hundreds of types of ND available only a >> couple types are used in any quantity. Thus I settled on one brand ND and >> one type for general use. Today there is a second ND Type that is slightly >> larger and heavier that is 80-90 amp output that might be a better choice >> for the more complex OBAM being today. >> >> In any event its now my turn to start one subject at a time in replying to >> your comments and questions. >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < >> nuckolls.bob@cox.net> >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:50 AM >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question >> >> >>> nuckolls.bob@cox.net> >>> >>> At 06:45 PM 7/9/2008 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>> I agree that its been much discussed in the past however there are many >>> false and remaining incorrect mis stated comments in the past that simply do >>> not apply to the most common ND alternator. These false statements remain in >>> the past unchallenged but still remain not correct with respect to ND >>> alternators. >>> >>> Okay. I do appologize. Forgive me for assuming too >>> much. Please allow me to back up and start anew . . . >>> >> >> snipped. >> >>> >>> >>> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question At 10:28 AM 7/10/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >>THANK YOU for your very nice reply!! >> >>Please bare :-) with me as the data I have is long many years filed away >>and will be hard to resurrect a lot of it other than my conclusions. >> >>The results were so clear to myself and several other local peers as well >>as Eric (on the east coast) I simply pressed on. I had no intent to come >>up with a universal solution when the specific ND type was discovered to >>meet what my group felt was a reasonable recommendation. Low cost, small >>and light weight, readily available, and 50-55 amp output which fit most >>applications including LYC and most popular auto engine conversions. Understand . . . and from the perspective of needing to design a product, one needs to be much more specific as to the numbers that appear on a bill of materials . . . >>I will try to provide information to discuss one part at a time as this >>email includes a large range of subjects and can end up being 1,000 lines >>long and too long for others to follow. Thus it may take as many as 8-10 >>different subject strings to cover each subject area >> >>I have specific experience (including test stand load tests up to 40 amps >>load) with several types of ND alternators which are different in several >>respects. Its clear to me that blessing all ND alternators as suitable is >>not true. I also have some experience with two brands of alternators. >>These were as I recall MI and HI brands??. I need to look up details as >>they had undesirable design features (at least to me) like requiring a >>lamp and or locking up. Also the reported failure rate in autos was of >>concern. I do not agree that the objective of one solution fits all >>brands/types is a reasonable solution but good luck. Not so much a dependence on good luck but a degree of protection from bad luck. Too many of the dark-n-stormy-night stories on electrical system issues demonstrate a gross lack of understanding on the part of pilots and an unimpressive demonstration of design goals on the part of TC aircraft manufacturers for failure tolerant design. But given that aircraft and medicine are probably the two most regulated industries in our nation, we need only look to those to craft law to understand why these industries are ham-strung. Given the millions of alternators and many dozens of brands/styles on the road that provide good service, it's not unreasonable to suggest that an OBAM aircraft owner has a huge pallet of colors from which to paint their electrical system. Risk for a bad choice? Sure . . . but relatively low. Especially If we can prevent a bad choice from becoming a safety issue. Now, if any individual has a product performance report to share with other builders that suggests a good value, that's fine with me but outside my mission. I don't work in a venue where I can recommend choices among alternators, switches, engines, tires, instruments, upholstery materials, etc. But I CAN craft architectures that minimize cost of ownership, weight, parts count and RISK. >> With my research 99% of internal reg alternators are ND and of the >> hundreds of types of ND available only a couple types are used in any >> quantity. Thus I settled on one brand ND and one type for general use. >> Today there is a second ND Type that is slightly larger and heavier that >> is 80-90 amp output that might be a better choice for the more complex >> OBAM being today. An your selection for your application is probably the ideal fit to your design goals. For customers to are willing to pay my outrageous fees, I'm equally specific. But for the folks who hang out on this List, I don't want to close any doors and windows for parts selection except where there is perceived increases in risk. >>In any event its now my turn to start one subject at a time in replying >>to your comments and questions. Looking forward to a productive exchange of ideas! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:36 PM PST US From: "Lee Logan" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Revision P Thanks for the response, Bob. Actually, I was planning on powering my EDM-900 from the main bus, but your comment suggests there there is a useful advantage in powering it from the endurance bus after all. Thanks for the heads up. BTW, where can I find/buy Z-13/8 Revision P? The search engine on Aeroelectric returns revision N and my copy of "the Book" is much older still... Thanks! Lee... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:28 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippondenso alternator question From: "rampil" Gee, Has anyone thought to go to http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/a/ Root around and get actual information about their specific model alternator from their library? I got the info I needed on the specs of my aux ND alternator derived from the 3 cyl Geo Metro. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192186#192186 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:20 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Revision P Try this for the downloads: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ *Sam Hoskins Quickie Blog Quickie Website **On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Lee Logan wrote: * > > *Thanks for the response, Bob. Actually, I was planning on powering my > EDM-900 from the main bus, but your comment suggests there there is a > useful advantage in powering it from the endurance bus after all. Thanks > for the heads up.* > > *BTW, where can I find/buy Z-13/8 Revision P? The search engine on > Aeroelectric returns revision N and my copy of "the Book" is much older > still...* > > *Thanks!* > > *Lee...* > > * > > * > > * * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:09 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Revision P Try this for the downloads: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ Sam *On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Lee Logan wrote: * > > *Thanks for the response, Bob. Actually, I was planning on powering my > EDM-900 from the main bus, but your comment suggests there there is a > useful advantage in powering it from the endurance bus after all. Thanks > for the heads up.* > > *BTW, where can I find/buy Z-13/8 Revision P? The search engine on > Aeroelectric returns revision N and my copy of "the Book" is much older > still...* > > *Thanks!* > > *Lee...* > > * > > * > > * * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:33 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question Paul, just for grins :-) do you have a part number (industry or particular brand) that you are recommending or suggesting as a good place to start? Or a specific automotive application. I keep hearing the 50-60 ND is the one but ,... Which one? Thanks Bill S 7a finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question > THANK YOU for your very nice reply!! > > Please bare :-) with me as the data I have is long many years filed > away and will be hard to resurrect a lot of it other than my conclusions. > > The results were so clear to myself and several other local peers as > well as Eric (on the east coast) I simply pressed on. I had no intent > to come up with a universal solution when the specific ND type was > discovered to meet what my group felt was a reasonable recommendation. > Low cost, small and light weight, readily available, and 50-55 amp > output which fit most applications including LYC and most popular auto engine conversions. > > I will try to provide information to discuss one part at a time as > this email includes a large range of subjects and can end up being > 1,000 lines long and too long for others to follow. Thus it may take > as many as 8-10 different subject strings to cover each subject area > > I have specific experience (including test stand load tests up to 40 > amps > load) with several types of ND alternators which are different in > several respects. Its clear to me that blessing all ND alternators as > suitable is not true. I also have some experience with two brands of alternators. > These were as I recall MI and HI brands??. I need to look up details > as they had undesirable design features (at least to me) like > requiring a lamp and or locking up. Also the reported failure rate in > autos was of concern. I do not agree that the objective of one > solution fits all brands/types is a reasonable solution but good luck. > With my research 99% of internal reg alternators are ND and of the > hundreds of types of ND available only a couple types are used in any > quantity. Thus I settled on one brand ND and one type for general use. > Today there is a second ND Type that is slightly larger and heavier > that is 80-90 amp output that might be a better choice for the more complex OBAM being today. > > In any event its now my turn to start one subject at a time in > replying to your comments and questions. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question > > >> >> >> At 06:45 PM 7/9/2008 -0700, you wrote: >> >> I agree that its been much discussed in the past however there are >> many false and remaining incorrect mis stated comments in the past >> that simply do not apply to the most common ND alternator. These >> false statements remain in the past unchallenged but still remain not >> correct with respect to ND alternators. >> >> Okay. I do appologize. Forgive me for assuming too >> much. Please allow me to back up and start anew . . . > > snipped. >> >> > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Revision P At 06:30 PM 7/10/2008 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks for the response, Bob. Actually, I was planning on powering my >EDM-900 from the main bus, but your comment suggests there there is a >useful advantage in powering it from the endurance bus after all. Thanks >for the heads up. > >BTW, where can I find/buy Z-13/8 Revision P? The search engine on >Aeroelectric returns revision N and my copy of "the Book" is much older >still... > >Thanks! Z-figures in the book are often outdated before the ink is dry. The very latest drawings are available on the website at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ Revision 12 is in the works and will be updated at that point . . . but may not stay "fresh" for long. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:05 PM PST US From: "Paul" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Schlatterer" Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator question > > > Paul, just for grins :-) do you have a part number (industry or particular > brand) that you are recommending or suggesting as a good place to start? > Or > a specific automotive application. I keep hearing the 50-60 ND is the one > but ,... Which one? > > Thanks Bill S > 7a finishing > That will be a part of the discussion. I must find my notes from about 3 computers back as its been years since I did my work. Actually it was in two different studies several years apart, the first around 15 years ago. Its one of several ND small frame 55-60 amp. units. It will be several days at least to find the old files unless I am lucky. more recently I found an 80 +/- alternator that was slightly larger that otherwise appeared to have the same regulator installed for the more electrically demanding aircraft. The industry uses the "Lester# system" to uniquely identify every variation of each alternator and there are thousands of numbers. Part of the selection process is availability of the alternator incase of a failure out of town and the one I selected is still in stock or overnight most anywhere in 3 versions . Barely rebuilt, mostly rebuilt, and new. Again patience please this discussion will take many days even with one or more exchanges between Bob and myself each day and some days will be missed. The end result should include the information to make an intelligent decision of several choices based on your own needs. Paul ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:39 PM PST US From: "Paul" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Internal regulator alternator discussion I hope that everyone can hold off on questions until the discussion reaches that specific subject. On the other hand I welcome questions etc on the specific subject currently being discussed. This will allow Bob and I to spend our time in information exchange more efficiently and eventually everyone's questions will be addressed. In my case I must try and find the hard disk and files of PIX etc from years ago to provide the details Bob wants (and needs) to evaluate what I tested as well as researched starting in the first 1/2 of 1990. I do have the hard drives but they must be installed in USB cases and searched. Also a lot of the data was never documented beyond pencil notes and marked Polorads etc scope screen photographs. At the time my conclusions were accepted by my posts on other groups and Eric for one started selling some parts to support the conclusions. The end result was there was no pressing reason to go further in spending the time to produce an engineering level report. I had other things to do and I was not selling any thing based on the results. I expect it will take the rest of this month to complete the discussion and have agreements and disagreements defined. At that time hopefully everyone can have the information required to decide what alternator etc is right for his own OBAM electrical system. 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