---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/19/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:22 AM - Ignition cables (Fergus Kyle) 2. 07:11 AM - More sought advice... electrics (Fergus Kyle) 3. 08:34 AM - Re: The great(?) debate . . . (Ralph Finch) 4. 09:16 AM - Re: More sought advice... electrics (Ron Shannon) 5. 09:24 AM - IR to ER alternator mod (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 6. 11:51 AM - Re: More sought advice... electrics (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 01:21 PM - OFF TOPIC (raymondj) 8. 01:45 PM - Re: Standards for switch colors? (Eric M. Jones) 9. 03:41 PM - Re: The great(?) debate . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 03:48 PM - Re: S700 switch pin positions (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 11. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Cabbages and kings . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: S700 switch pin positions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 05:37 PM - Switches (frequent flyer) 14. 07:50 PM - More advice sought II (Fergus Kyle) 15. 08:14 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC (Robert Feldtman) 16. 08:26 PM - Re: More advice sought II (Ron Shannon) 17. 09:24 PM - Re: More advice sought II (Ron Quillin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:34 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ignition cables Bob N: I have a Rotax 914, which among other things reveals a pair of ignition wires terminated in female bullet connectors. I have read discussions regarding Radio Magnetic Interference and must route these to switches such that I can disconnect them at the firewall for instrument panel removal and engine removal both. In view of the engine bullet connections, I opted to relay the wires in RG400, using BNC connectors at both sides of the firewall - two double female BNC bulkhead, on 1/32" stainless steel mini-panel through the firewall. The choice then became which BNC males would I use for the f/w contacts. I opted for male BNC crimp connectors - for ease of installation on RG400 and easy disconnect either side. Using solder models seemed a painful exercise in view of the fidgety steps required, (ham radio experience here). The cabin side will continue in RG400 to Ignition switches on the instrument panel. The Europa instrument panel is minimal and proper distance 'twixt ignition wires and others dictated a thorough braid grounding, at the bullet end to the engine casting and (following manufacturer's instructions) at the earthing end of the ignition switches to achieve proper shorting for safety. All connectors will be buttressed by heatshrink for security and to forestall unprogrammed shorts or broken wires - both of which are safety considerations. Never having had connection problems with BNCs over 30 years, I thought I had chosen well, but I'm a flyer not a builder so beg confirmation that my thinking is correct. Should I box in the switches electrically to continue shielding all the way to the finger point, or is the interference minimal at that point in your estimation? I hesitate to add another last minute mod to the many already waiting to spring.......... Your sage guidance ( and perhaps of others) greatly appreciated - when you have time... Cheers, Ferg Europa A064 Wiring wiring wiring ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:55 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: More sought advice... electrics Hello again, Once more I seek advice - mainly from hams or electronic experience regarding BNC connectors: I have opted to connect RG400 coax to BNC male crimp connectors, mainly for what I thought to be ease of installation....! BUTR where do I find the correct coax cuttings for the ordinary male crimp BNCs for RG400 (presume also for RG58)? The dimensions seem to escape my Googlating........or is it Googlizing?. Thanks, Ferg Europa A064 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:58 AM PST US From: "Ralph Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: The great(?) debate . . . Actually, I would much appreciate your thoughts on VerticalPower and its concept. If you've shared them before I'll search the archives.... Ralph Finch RV-9A QB build -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: The great(?) debate . . . http://www.verticalpower.com/ This is for information only and not intended to start a new thread. Before there are schematics and/or hardware to evaluate, there's nothing worthy of our $time$ to discuss at length. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:54 AM PST US From: "Ron Shannon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More sought advice... electrics Ferg, You can get these via B&C (http://bandc.biz) or Steinair (http://steinair.com) among other sources. At least B&C (maybe Stein) also offers the proper hex crimp tool. Ron On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Fergus Kyle wrote: .... > BUTR where do I > find the correct coax cuttings for the ordinary male crimp BNCs for RG400 > (presume also for RG58)? The dimensions seem to escape my > Googlating........or is it Googlizing?. > Thanks, Ferg > Europa A064 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:32 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: IR to ER alternator mod Bob, Here is another IR to ER alternator mod. I would appreciate your evaluation and comments as I may use this method. Thanks, Roger http://www.falco.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemi d=72 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More sought advice... electrics At 10:07 AM 7/19/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >Hello again, > Once more I seek advice - mainly from hams or electronic experience >regarding BNC connectors: > I have opted to connect RG400 coax to BNC male crimp connectors, >mainly for what I thought to be ease of installation....! BUTR where do I >find the correct coax cuttings for the ordinary male crimp BNCs for RG400 >(presume also for RG58)? The dimensions seem to escape my >Googlating........or is it Googlizing?. Anything that fits RG-58 fits 142 or 400. The connectors are available from a host of sources not the least of which are B&C. You can get them from these folks as well: http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=5401+RC http://tinyurl.com/5n25gv the tool that installs these needs to have two dies, .068" for the pin, .213" for the ferule. If you can find a tool with AMP or MOLEX dies in it, you're off and running. El-cheeso tools tend to be undersized on the .213 die. So if a tad (and I'm talking .0005") the ferule flashes out a tad into the gap between the dies. The safest approach for el-cheeso tools is the Radio Shack 278-238 http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62636 This tool doesn't have ratchet handles. If the crimps tend to be too tight, you can manually relax the grip before the tool bottoms out and you'll get a nice, smooth hex on the ferule. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf You'll also find a three-blade stripper to be really handy. This tool . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Wire_Strippers/Three-Blade_Stripper.jpg . . . can be had off Ebay for really cheap. http://tinyurl.com/6g444g Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:34 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: AeroElectric-List: OFF TOPIC do not archive This is directed to anyone involved in erecting antennas. I have a 100 ft free standing triangular "antenna" and I'm looking for any references to help me design the base to erect it on. Please reply off list to spare the other listers. Thanks, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Standards for switch colors? From: "Eric M. Jones" I have actually seen such proposed "Standards", but I don't think they stuck. But the FAA wants a paddle on the flap switch/lever, and a wheel on the landing gear switch/lever. They were headed in the right direction. Sec. 23.781 Cockpit control knob shape. (a) Flap and landing gear control knobs must conform to the general shapes (but not necessarily the exact sizes or specific proportions) in the following figure: Flap Control Knob, Landing Gear Control Knob see for particulars. (b) Powerplant control knobs must conform to the general shapes (but not necessarily the exact sizes or specific proportions) in the following figure: Power (Thrust) Control Knob, RPM Control Knob, Mixture Control Knob, Carb Heat or Alternate Air Control Knob, Supercharger Control Knob Fuel Selectors must be red, and there are some other minor callouts for colors such as the pitot heat lights, but not much. I am unhappy with red warnings because I can't see them. Rather than plain color switches, the military likes striped controls. Nightlights make colors a difficult problem for everybody. Putting in Jules Verne knobs with crystal pommels would suit me fine, or beer-tap handles for the really important stuff. My cockpit (...if ever...) will not be very standard. Experimental builders have some great ideas. I also want to again point out that some of the best articles on panel design were published by Ricardo A. Price, in Kitplanes Dec95 and Jan96 and Feb96. They deserve a place of honor: http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7273-1.phtml http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7272-1.phtml http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7271-1.phtml I also attached a DRAFT of my panel design write-up, just notes basically.... I may have even have some pirated stuff there that I dropped in cut-and-paste as reference notes. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193812#193812 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/instrument_panels_201.pdf ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: The great(?) debate . . . At 08:28 AM 7/19/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Actually, I would much appreciate your thoughts on VerticalPower and its >concept. If you've shared them before I'll search the archives.... > >Ralph Finch >RV-9A QB build Vertical Power . . . and competitors offer a high degree of integration for monitoring, automatic controls, display of parameters of interest, some degree of plug-n-play architecture and perhaps some computer driven features that can be accessed by the user. These might include check-lists and data gathering on some aspects of system performance. When compared with the breaker/fuse,-switch-wire-contactors approach common to most of GA light-planes, it's an entirely new world with design goals never considered until the technology and manufacturing evolved. Certainly there have been huge advancements in the capabilities we have to "go solid state" or "enhance pilot ability to exert a high degree of command and control with a reduced workload." And, of course, we'll see the words "safety" and "reliability" pop up in the advertisements as well. I'm not sure there is value in trying to compare $300 worth of wire, switches, fuses or breakers and the occasional contactor with these new kids on the block. For years I witnessed demonstrations at OSH by entrepreneurial hopefuls for controlling the airplane over serial busses "for the purpose of reducing wire weight." The first question that comes to mind is what degree of complexity has been added (along with vulnerabilities to RF and lightning) in order to take perhaps 2 pounds out of the empty weight of an RV? The earliest manifestations of this trend were not very exciting because the part counts went up. Further, maintenance spares were not the kinds of parts you can buy at Aircraft Spruce, Steinair or B&C. Over the years, the size and power of the proposed computers grew as prices for those computers and their design tools went down. Now we could begin to think about doing things that the $300 lot of hardware cited above cannot nor were ever intended to do. You can "program" these things to exercise some intelligence, display on LCD screens, take input from touch-screens, etc. Now you have an entirely different product. It's a flight management system that also happens to replace $300 worth of hardware. Lighter than the $300 system? Probably not. Sexier than the $300 system, you betcha! The decision to incorporate this technology into your airplane goes WWAAaayyy beyond the thought processes we used to buy $300 worth of stuff from B&C. This is because the new idea can do much more than turn things on and off and keep wires from burning up if faulted. Now we find ourselves considering software driven fault detection and clearing, software driven on/off control, solid state switches replacing every toggle, entering and displaying checklists, recording clearances, etc. etc. It's like stepping up from a 6-cyl, stick-shift, chevy with nothing on it to a Lexus with everything on it. Both vehicles take fuel and time to get you from point A to point B. The differences to be considered now become very personal. Some pilots among you take some personal pride in designing, crafting, understanding, operating and maintaining the system built from $300 worth of parts. They also do not feel intimidated about the thought processes and actions necessary to deal with a malfunction of a component in that system. On the other hand, if the owner is especially fond of the notion of automating these processes and turning responsibility over to a suite of components that he doesn't understand and cannot service, then there are folks ready to offer systems that addresses that desire. The easiest targets for the latest-and-greatest are those who do not understand the $300 system and easily transition to not understanding the multi-killobuck system as well. Probably driven by some idea that if all the necessary things for operating the system are taken care of in software, then the owner/pilot need not be concerned with such matters. The decision to take advantage of highly integrated, bells-and-whistles products is more a matter of personal preferences than one of utility and especially safety. Your airplane isn't gong to fly any faster. It's not going to be any lighter. The volume of stuff behind the panel will be higher. And yes, one can be relieved of having to deal with the occasional but usually non-threatening failure of a component . . . assuming the $300 worth of stuff was crafted into a failure tolerant system. My personal preference is driven by my professional understanding of the components and architectures available to me. Toss in the admittedly dated "Mother! I want to do it myself!" attitude handed down to me by my predecessors. A sort of "The Right Stuff" approach to minimizing complexity where it fails to increase the efficiency of the machine or reduce cost of ownership. When I'm looking for the ultimate convenience of operation, speed, comfort, and lowest cost of ownership I buy a ticket on a big iron bird. If I owned an OBAM aircraft (or de-certified factory machine) it would not be for the purpose of elevating its function to level of a flying Lexus. My personal "dream machine" is a de-certified Pacer with Mogas STC. Strip out the back seats and put in cargo tie-down platform. Strip out electrical system and put Z13/8. Strip out that butt-busting bench seat and put in nice buckets out of an automobile. NOW, for a pittance in relative costs, a lot of labor, I have a product of my imagination, $time$ and talents that I'm willing to suffer in for nine hours of noise and bumps (NOT counting fuel stops) to the west coast. But be cautious of any notions that these systems are safer or more reliable. Electrical system malfunctions are very small contributors to expensive or life threatening accidents. Reliability has to be defined in terms whether any given failure is a maintenance or safety issue. Are you striving for never turning a wrench? Or perhaps maximizing the numbers of no-sweat arrivals? I personally have no problem with replacing the occasional inexpensive part in a failure tolerant system. That's why I would even choose to own an OBAM aircraft in the first place. I have no doubt that these do-everything products function as advertised. Return on investment will not be known until we have years of marketplace history. Those of you considering the make-or-buy decision, have to build you own case for $time$, design goals and the satisfaction of getting utility out of the best YOU know how to do in YOUR dream machine. A big chunk of that equation considers how much you're willing to learn and build as opposed to buying it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S700 switch pin positions From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com Found an unused Carling 2-10 switch in my electrical supply box today, so pulled out my now ragged copy of the Aeroelectric Connection and my che apo RS multimeter to confirm what I had previously posted - that the pin positions were transposed left to right from the diagram in the 'Connection. They are indeed transposed, assuming a view looking at the back of the switch with the keyway up. The date code on the side of the switch is 0443. I am sure that the transposition is not just a single switch anomaly, because I had more than one of these on my plane, and I remember making the wiring correction in multiple places - in my case, two p-mag switches a nd a landing lights/wig-wag switch. regards, Erich Weaver This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not reta in, distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should dest roy the e-mail and any attachments or copies. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cabbages and kings . . . At 05:53 AM 7/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > > > The LT4356 does not seem to be suited for standing > > off the uncontrolled runway. The schematic proposed > > does not suggest a means by which an alternator may > > be controlled . . . I'm presuming that the "new > > philosophy" is that the artfully designed system > > of the future does not demand control. I'm not > > aware of how that might be accomplished. > > >The prototyped device is good to 150V. I admit that this may not be the >final form, that's why it's called a prototype. The LT4356 doesn't do >anything that couldn't have been done earlier. It is just far simpler. The >diagram in my paper is not a schematic. Attached is the schematic of my >prototype. > >As for the kind offer to re-open old subjects like crowbars, >bi-directional Zeners for coil suppression, battery meters (instead of >dual batteries), Schottkys, elimination of contactors, etc., etc.--I >looked in the mirror this morning and nobody had written "STUPID" on my >forehead, so I guess it won't happen. But if I bump my head REALLY HARD, >I'll be sure to let you know. Eric, please allow me to offer a quotation from one of my personal heros: " . . . there is a kind of responsibility which the scientists feel toward each other which can represent as a kind of morality. What's the right way and the wrong way to report results? Disinterestedly, so that the other man is free to understand precisely what you are saying, and nearly as possible not covering it with your desires. That is a useful thing which helps us to understand each other . . ." "And so there is, if you will, a kind of scientific morality." "Advertising, for example, is a scientifically immoral description of the products. This immorality is so extensive that one gets so used to it in ordinary life, that you do not appreciate that it is a bad thing." These are excerpts from Richard Feynman's remarks at the 1964 Galileo Symposium in Italy. I found these remarks recently while re-reading a book of Feynman's works which you can see parts of here. This link takes you right to the page(s) where the ideas cited above are found: http://tinyurl.com/5jm7xt Indeed, let us not re-open old arguments where one or more of the participants is engaged in the "immorality of advertising" Feynman describes. If it suits your purposes better, we need not open those discussions for any reason because I have no advertising imperatives. Many of my ideas do exist in hardware for sale by myself and others but that isn't what the List should be about. I wish to craft no tolerance for the mindless acceptance of advertising here on the List, only a quest for understanding borne up by simple-ideas as ingredients that go into recipes for success. It's the free-market manner in which your version of "pancakes" might differ in ingredients from my version of "flapjacks". It's the free market that can and will pass judgment on our respective products based on performance, return on investment, customer service and integrity of the offerors of such products. You have laid your list of ingredients out for all of us here on the list and suggested a way that they be combined to become a product. Why? I can only guess. My hope is that you've opened a door to a discussion. This is an activity I'm pleased to participate in as long as you're not depending upon smearing another person's ideas, products or integrity for the purpose of marketing your own. So the experiment: Would you outline for the List the design goals for the device you've described? How does it integrate into an OBAM aircraft system and what functions is it designed to provide? I'd be willing to participate in a critical design review not unlike those I enjoyed in my former life. There are, I am sure, others on the List who have curiosities to satisfy and ideas to contribute. You'll be hard pressed to find another group so willing to contribute to your success for so low a price! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:18 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S700 switch pin positions At 06:45 PM 7/19/2008 -0400, you wrote: >Found an unused Carling 2-10 switch in my electrical supply box today, so >pulled out my now ragged copy of the Aeroelectric Connection and my cheapo >RS multimeter to confirm what I had previously posted - that the pin >positions were transposed left to right from the diagram in the 'Connection. > >They are indeed transposed, assuming a view looking at the back of the >switch with the keyway up. The date code on the side of the switch is 0443. > >I am sure that the transposition is not just a single switch anomaly, >because I had more than one of these on my plane, and I remember making >the wiring correction in multiple places - in my case, two p-mag switches >and a landing lights/wig-wag switch. > >regards, > >Erich Weaver Excellent hard data! Thank you sir. I've not heard from Carling yet but it seems likely that their "odd-man-out" position in the market place for switches would be a powerful incentive to swap columns and bring their functionality into synchronization with the rest of the industry. I think I'll be revising the switch ratings document to include a caveat for testing any given switch to determine it's position in the industry. Carling is the only company I'm aware of that did not conform but that doesn't mean there are not others. It would be really cool if Carling could offer a date range for the change-over. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:32 PM PST US From: frequent flyer Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switches Hi, i know this has just been a subject but i have some switches that are n ot marked the same as Bob's book. no #s on the pins.- I believe they are 10-20 & 10-50 but not sure. there are no pin #s on them and Bob's drawings are totally different. Help!- Jack, Glasair IIS-FT in AZ =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:49 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: More advice sought II Hey, Perhaps I should clarify my request: I have the male BNC crimp connectors and I have the applicable crimpers. What is missing is the dimensions of the cuts for the centre wire, the internal insulation, the coaxial shield and the cover. It's the instructions I need. Cheers, ferg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:02 PM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OFF TOPIC go to arrl.org and buy the antenna handbook bobf W5RF BTW - that is a huge, potential dangerous antenna. might be worth some hired help with it! On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 3:18 PM, raymondj wrote: > raymondj@frontiernet.net> > > do not archive > > This is directed to anyone involved in erecting antennas. I have a 100 ft > free standing triangular "antenna" and I'm looking for any references to > help me design the base to erect it on. Please reply off list to spare the > other listers. > > Thanks, > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "Hope for the best, > but prepare for the worst." > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:46 PM PST US From: "Ron Shannon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More advice sought II See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: ... > It's the > instructions I need. > Cheers, ferg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More advice sought II From: Ron Quillin Depending on which connector you have, I've had past success on the manufacturers' web sites finding that type on information. Ron Q. At 19:47 7/19/2008, you wrote: >Hey, > Perhaps I should clarify my request: > I have the male BNC crimp connectors and I have the applicable >crimpers. What is missing is the dimensions of the cuts for the centre wire, >the internal insulation, the coaxial shield and the cover. It's the >instructions I need. >Cheers, ferg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.