Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:41 AM - Re: Re: IR to ER alternator mod (Andrew Butler)
2. 05:25 AM - Re: Ground in an all wood airplane (Eric M. Jones)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: IR to ER alternator mod (Steve Stearns)
4. 06:33 AM - Sportair electrical workshop? (mikef)
5. 07:17 AM - Switches (frequent flyer)
6. 07:39 AM - Re: "primer-line fuel injection" (A.F.Rupp@att.net)
7. 08:05 AM - Support (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
8. 08:57 AM - Re: 30 Amp switch? (Ron Shannon)
9. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: IR to ER alternator mod (Terry Watson)
10. 09:51 AM - not able to post message on List (Janet Amtmann)
11. 10:23 AM - Re: Support (John Morgensen)
12. 10:40 AM - Re: not able to post message on List (Roger & Jean)
13. 10:54 AM - Re: Sportair electrical workshop? (dfischer@iserv.net)
14. 08:57 PM - Re: The great(?) debate . . . (Ralph Finch)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IR to ER alternator mod |
Debate is a good thing. Debates only become unpleasant when the
participants steer from the rules of logic and induction to the more
fuzzy exchanges that are bound by rules of social etiquette. Then people
start talking about behaviour and style and all things socially
complicated that have nothing whatsover to do with the topic at hand.
My understanding is that this forum was set up not for the purpose of
making friends, but rather to help aviation enthusiasts located around
the world produce better, safer and more cost effective aeroplanes. This
all is much easier if we all stick to verifiable truths, based on logic
and rational induction. If stating opinions is important to an
individual, then that is fine, as long as those opinions can be
demonstrated to be based on reason and logic that can be backed up by
verifiable data. Those opinions are then more akin to truth, and are not
of the individual at all.
Opinions that are of an individual (by virtue of not being demonstrated
as being "truth"), is the source of debates that go sour because the
owner of the opinion applies rules of social etiquette to the treatment
of the opinion that just don't apply in the world of cold logic and
induction. Logic and induction is like a dog with a bone and it won't let
go until the truth is proven.
Sure if we all become friends thats great, but enemies? Can't see the
logic in that!
Cheers,
Andrew Butler,
RV71700
Galway
Ireland
----- Original Message -----
From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com"
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IR to ER alternator mod
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:25:31 GMT
-- Steve Stearns wrote:
> I don't have to agree with different viewpoints to appreciate them.
I, for one, think this list would be greatly enhanced
> if there was less defensive posturing, bile etc.
I tend to agree with Steve! Especially the above quotes.
As long as the sender's name remains available, I can choose which to
read..or agree with..
Earl
Do not archive
===========
===========
===========
===========
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Ground in an all wood airplane |
Your problem is no different from those of all plastic airplanes. Seawinds have
nose-mounted batteries and 32 feet of HUMONGOUS battery cable going to and from
the tail mounted engine. (Note: SteinAir sells Seawind builders and others
Perihelion Design Super-2-CCA. Perihelion still sells Super-4-CCA but that will
go to SteinAir soon too.)
But this brings up the point that metal monocoque fuselage airplanes with rear-mounted
batteries often use the fuselage for grounding. I suspect that this is
a bad idea, and I suppose that in SOME cases this could cause starting problems
and/or structural problems. Hundreds of amps through crappy corroded/primed/riveted
joints in thin aluminum sheets scares me.
Has anyone seen, investigated or measured this???
"...faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money..."
--Cowboy Poet Tom T. Hall
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194330#194330
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IR to ER alternator mod |
Bob,
Thanks for the clarification. I had not understood this list to be your
classroom but instead, had confused it for a user forum that supports
the free exchange of ideas (with which I have more experience). Your
list is an educational list and I'm appreciative of it. Can you (or
anyone else) suggest an additional aircraft electrical focused
list/forum that is moderated as a user forum that supports the free
exchange of ideas? I, in general, prefer to do my own sorting of wheat
from chaff and would like to add such a list to those (including this
one) in which I intend to continue to participate.
Respectfully,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Sportair electrical workshop? |
SportAir is coming to a city near me in the fall and I was wondering if the good
folks on this list have an opinion about the quality of the electrical workshop?
I'm pretty far along (because of this list!), wiring the front panel, but
interested to know if it might be worth the time spent attending.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194339#194339
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Bob, Thank you for the quick response to my question about the switch terminals.
I had actually been able to figure it out the night before. Theses are Carling
switches and # 1 is ont the left looking from the back. Thanks again. Jack
do not archive
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: "primer-line fuel injection" |
In the Old days we used to start P&W R2800's (P-61 Martin 404)on prime and get
them running before advancung mixture from idle cut off and they would run good
on prime. I think if you had two point prime on a 4 or small 6 with electric
boost pump it woul be sufficient.
Al Rupp
601XL - Corvair
> At 06:28 PM 7/20/2008 -0500, you wrote:
> >What can I say? Thanks AGAIN for another valuable bit of education.
> I've only collected some ideas that have been laying
> around on the ground for nearly 100 years and considered
> how they might be combined into yet another recipe for
> success.
>
>
>
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I, for one, support Bob! I believe in his KISS (keep it simple stupid),
design principals. His designs are simple and fault tolerant.
Who else on this or any other forum/list has as much information on how
to
wire an airplane?? There are diagrams for practically every variation
flying. If there are any questions regarding any of his designs, all
you
need do is ask, and an explanation is forthcoming, and to top it off,
his
many years of experience and advice are at no charge (read FREE) He
does
have some products for sale at reasonable prices, but I do not see him
pushing to sell here.
For those of us who want to build our own systems at a reasonable cost,
this
is great.
It seems that there are other people previously named who have an
agenda,
and it is to use this site to sell their products. They seem to be
doing
this by not having good discussions backed up by data, but by trying to
discredit and belittle the published data, and introduce scare tactics
based
on "vapor data" (unpublished, unavailable data)
For those of you who want the latest bells and whistles and money is no
object, then go for it. But for us who want a good simple dependable
system, this is the place.
Bob, thank you for all your help and continue your good work,
Roger
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 30 Amp switch? |
FYI, there are several good, small relays available for this purpose. For a
FWF location, my choice would be the *P&B T92D11D-12*, rated 30A with quick
tab connections, available from Digikey or Mouser. Prolink makes a couple
rated at 40A, available from Circuit Specialists, see *
http://tinyurl.com/5pj6tm*. The former are all lightweight, with low coil
current requirements. There are also several automotive relays (Bosch, etc.)
with these ratings. If it will be in a weather protected location, i.e., aft
of the FW, you might also want to consider the solid state Powerlink III
Jr., rated 35A continuous, from Perihelion, with a very low control current,
though it's a little bit heavier than the P&B.
Ron
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Don Vs <dsvs@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Ed,
> The marine guys use a battery switch that would handle the thirty amps.
> Problem is it is big and fairly expensive. A relay would probably be
> better. Don VS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ed
> Holyoke
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:23 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: 30 Amp switch?
>
>
>
>
> I have a setup where I need to switch about 30 amps as a backup power
> source. Is there such an animal as a toggle switch that will handle
> that, or do I need to think about a relay?
>
> Pax,
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IR to ER alternator mod |
I think some of you are missing an important point about the aeroelectric
list: Matt set it up as Bob's forum for answering builder's questions about
electrical aspects of small airplanes. Bob's approach has been to make it a
classroom, but the important point here is that it is Bob's forum; he makes
the rules. We don't get to vote on how he runs his classroom or what kinds
of disruptions or behavior he allows. That's his call. I think he does it
just right, but it really doesn't matter what I think.
Terry
<snip>
My understanding is that this forum was set up not for the purpose of making
friends, but rather to help aviation enthusiasts located around the world
produce better, safer and more cost effective aeroplanes. This all is much
easier if we all stick to verifiable truths, based on logic and rational
induction. If stating opinions is important to an individual, then that is
fine, as long as those opinions can be demonstrated to be based on reason
and logic that can be backed up by verifiable data. Those opinions are then
more akin to truth, and are not of the individual at all.
Opinions that are of an individual (by virtue of not being demonstrated as
being "truth"), is the source of debates that go sour because the owner of
the opinion applies rules of social etiquette to the treatment of the
opinion that just don't apply in the world of cold logic and induction.
Logic and induction is like a dog with a bone and it won't let go until the
truth is proven.
<snip>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | not able to post message on List |
Hello Matt,
I just subscribed and went to the List and tried to post a question
using the New Post button. When the AOL email page came up it had
your email address on it but the SEND button was blanked out and the
message would not send. What could be the problem?
Best regards,
Jurgen Amtmann
jgamtmann2@gmail.com
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Me too.
John Morgensen
ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote:
>
> I, for one, support Bob! I believe in his KISS (keep it simple
> stupid), design principals. His designs are simple and fault tolerant.
>
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | not able to post message on List |
Hi Janet,
Looks like this message posted to the list.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Janet
Amtmann
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:48 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: not able to post message on List
<jgamtmann2@gmail.com>
Hello Matt,
I just subscribed and went to the List and tried to post a question
using the New Post button. When the AOL email page came up it had
your email address on it but the SEND button was blanked out and the
message would not send. What could be the problem?
Best regards,
Jurgen Amtmann
jgamtmann2@gmail.com
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Sportair electrical workshop? |
I took the class at Willow Run Airport near Detroit. To a wiring imbecile
such as myself, it was very helpful in getting hands-on work with the
different crimping and soldering techniques (BNCs, sib-Ds, etc.) The
instructor was very helpful at answering any questions. If you've already
done those things (successfully), you may get a limited benefit. The
wiring theories and wire gauge calculation stuff helped me, too, since I'm
pretty clueless when it comes to wiring, but it sounds like you've done
these things already as well.
Doug Fischer
RV-9A Wings
Jenison, MI
Do not archive
>
> SportAir is coming to a city near me in the fall and I was wondering if
> the good folks on this list have an opinion about the quality of the
> electrical workshop? I'm pretty far along (because of this list!), wiring
> the front panel, but interested to know if it might be worth the time
> spent attending.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Mike
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194339#194339
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | The great(?) debate . . . |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:52 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: The great(?) debate . . .
But are the "problems" one of shortcomings in as-new performance?
In other words, if this were a factory-new airplane, would you find
the instruments as-supplied inadequate to the task? Or are the problems
one of maintenance and failure to perform . . . i.e. the puppies are
just worn out and/or suffering the effects of age?
At first, sure, it was old gages. But then the "new", or rebuilt, gages
started acting wonky too. I'm just not seeing any remarkable reliability
from this stuff. Maybe because anything affordable is now made in China,
even altimeters and such. I'm sure eventually they will make good stuff, as
we once did, but it's not there now.
If I have to walk into a planning meeting for the purpose
of selling an idea where all the weight, cost and parts
count numbers are moving in the wrong direction, there
needs to be a really compelling reason for taking the
hit to performance of our airplane.
I'll take those one at a time. So far they don't add to "compelling", but
at least to "interesting".
1. Weight
>From Vertical Power's website, the specs for their model VP-200 ("for
advanced VFR and IFR-capable aircraft")
Control Unit: 2.5 lbs
Display Unit: 1.8 lbs
Switch Panel: 0.9 lbs
For a total of 5.2 lbs. Let's say you save 1.0 lbs in switches and wires,
net increase, 4.2 lbs. A non-issue.
2. Cost
The same VP-200 is $6,495. That's a chunk of money, and I'm guessing that
at the moment there is no discount pricing.
They have a pricing worksheet for items saved
(http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/Pricing_Analysis.pdf). I haven't gone
through it in detail, but I'd guess I'd save $500 to perhaps $1000, mainly
because of functionality in the -200 I wouldn't need to buy separately, such
as trim indicators, runaway trim protection and trim speed, etc. Let's say
$695 for convenience; that means a net extra cost of $5800. Still a lot of
money. Nevertheless, while an important consideration, it would not be my
biggest factor.
3. Parts count.
I would argue that the parts count lessens with the VP technology. Less
connections, mechanical contacts, breakers/fuses, and separate instruments.
But I think with "parts count" maybe you meant "reliability"? That's my
segue into two concerns of mine.
4. Reliability (Routine and Critical).
What is the reliability of VP compared to traditional systems? I want to
consider what I'll call Routine Reliability, by which I mean does everything
work routinely, day after day, flight after flight; and Critical
Reliability, can something fail which is critical to flight safety?
The VP-200 system has 3 components: the display unit (panel), the switch
panel, and the control unit. I understand that if the display unit fails,
everything keeps working, you just don't see what is going on. That could
be disconcerting if you've got it programmed to do things during different
phases of flight. I would for sure want to land soon and get it fixed, but
it would not be critical.
The switch panel has the mag switches (hardwired to mags with sensors so the
VP knows what position they're in), master switch, emergency switch, and 3
user switches. Seems this device is closer to traditional switches so I'll
say that just like a traditional mag or master switch could fail, so could
this. That could be critical, just like traditional switches, so equal
probability of failure and equal consequences.
The control box is a "black box" device (actually red) which runs things in
real-time: taking in data from sensors, running a program, and activating
solid-state switches according to sensor data and user preferences.
Apparently if this nearly completely fails the solid-state switches remain
in whatever position they were in. If a bullet goes through it then you
lose all electrical I guess. Complete failure of this gadget would be like
a complete electrical failure: probably not critical unless you're in IMC.
Since I won't be (not IFR rated) to me it would be a concern, nothing more.
Many years ago I made a flight an hour away, and back, with the alternator
not charging the system. Upon realizing what was happening I simply turned
off the master switch until my destination, where I turned it back on and
made CTAF calls on battery power. Likewise the return trip. No big deal
day VFR.
VP has backup/fail-safe provisions. They describe
(http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/Backup_Wiring.pdf) how to wire backup,
traditional switches for whatever devices you feel critical: EFIS, GPS,
Boost pump, Starter (though EFIS and GPS nowadays have their own battery
backup).
Proponents and skeptics can make all the hand-waving arguments each way they
want, lacking empirical reliability data. That would be hard to come by for
several reasons. But reliable solid-state devices are certainly possible,
we all have them in our cars. I have a 1989 Mazda and a 2000 Toyota. Both
have an engine computer and neither has had a failure of that in a
collective 27 years and 300,000 miles. If I assume that the VP devices are
built to the same standards as automobile engine computers, we can say they
would be very reliable, more than electromechanical switches. I would like
to see VP address their design and manufacturing standards more, comparing
them to auto computers.
5. User Interface
This may be my biggest concern. The traditional six-pack gage display
pattern is well-known to all pilots now, and it will take me some time to
adjust to an EFIS. But adjust I will. A bigger adjustment will be
actuating functions not with real switches but with "soft" keys on a
display. It's sort of like mousing around with Windows. A real switch is
always in the same place and always there; a soft key has to be arrived at
with several key presses. That's something that again, I would like to see
VP talk about more. What do pilots say about it? How long to adjust? What
about reactions in emergency situations?
I've said enough for now. A few last comments to your comments and I'm
done.
So consider appliance selection and power distribution/
control as two tasks. Distribution and control is
not unlike the water system for your town. Yeah,
there some new plastics for pipes and this valve
design is longer lived and less expensive because
it's assembled by machines . . . but the necessary
functionality does not benefit much from the
addition of software, touch screen and automated
response to stimulus. Sometimes the best way to
drive a nail is with a hammer.
Funny you mention water supply....I'm a water resources engineer that does
numerical modeling of estuaries. As a matter of fact, behind the scenes,
water supply has enjoyed some benefit from computers and could enjoy more.
All but the most trivial water systems now are designed on PCs with
specialized software that balances flows and pressures, solving very large
sets of equations, so pipes can be better sized, saving material cost and
ensuring more reliable water delivery. My employer, the California Dept. of
Water Resources, has a SCADA system on hundreds of miles of aqueduct, pumps,
etc. Large urban systems have large control facilities to balance supply
and demand. If the computers were destroyed with a high-altitude EMP, we'd
be screwed. Things would eventually operate again but quite inefficiently.
After sifting and sorting all those marbles you
just WANT that kind of system in your airplane,
by all means . . . and know that its incorporation
does not present a great shift in risk. No matter
what's in your panel, these guys should be in
your flight bag.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Failure_Tolerance.pdf
They work in your Aircoupe and will work just
as well in your super-whizzy RV! The bottom line
is to fly comfortably in either.
Bob . . .
Exactly! And I do have those gadgets: a backup GPS, backup hand radio,
various flashlights and even a chemical light. I can't dream too much of
things to add to the Coupe. But the RV, after all, is
Experimental..."Perchance to Dream". Hey, maybe that's what I'll put on the
side...
RF
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|