---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/06/08: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:54 AM - P-Mag Overvoltage (Jeff Page) 2. 10:39 AM - Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 3. 11:03 AM - Re: P-Mag Overvoltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 05:25 PM - Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures (Ernest Christley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:45 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Overvoltage > The reliability gurus have long suggested that > "twin" systems are not as confidence building as > "alternative" designs. This is the most reliable strategy. However, I am considering installing two P-Mags (or one P and one E). This provides variable spark timing to both plugs, which should result in improved engine performance. With internal power generation, the P-Mags should be very reliable. The only common failure mode I can think of is an overvoltage event that damages the electronics in both P-Mags. Do you know enough about the product design to comment on the robustness of these products to a major overvoltage event ? Is there a switching regulator that can handle almost anything ? Thanks, Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:42 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures Ahh yes...As I tell my engineers who want every cool gadget going on their sysytems..."Every component is an expensive point of failure" Of course our systems are bolted to the ground in a wafer fab...God help them if any of them tried to construct an IFR homebuilt..:) Frank Electrically dependant IFR RV7a Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures --> At 09:40 PM 8/4/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >>An unanticipated event may be able to take out even a well designed > electrical bus that has passed multiple peer reviews (Diamond twin > star, for example), << > > Ah... what makes you assume it passed multiple peer reviews ? > > By whom? When ? Exactly . . . and then you have "executive decision" to contend with. I'm seriously considering bowing out of a program wherein we walked in with a proposal for a "been there, done that, best-we-know-how-to-do" product. Various "forces" were applied to the design by both supplier sales ("the customer is always right") and buyer's engineering ("that's the way we used to do it and I don't want to do something I don't understand"). The first article delivered was a super pain in the arse. We're starting to stack band-aids on to fix the problems . . . which is slowly creeping the design toward the original proposal. I'd like to rip it all out and start over but it's beginning to look like the system will go to qualification with a pile of band-aids in place as opposed to backing up and doing it right. If left unchanged the parts count will be too high, the customer service technicians will curse "those idiot engineers" and cost of ownership will be unnecessarily high. One would like to believe that these situations don't happen a Boeing, Airbus, et. als. but I wouldn't bet on it! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Overvoltage At 10:46 AM 8/6/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >> The reliability gurus have long suggested that >> "twin" systems are not as confidence building as >> "alternative" designs. > >This is the most reliable strategy. >However, I am considering installing two P-Mags (or one P and one E). >This provides variable spark timing to both plugs, which should result >in improved engine performance. Agreed . . . and better starting and longer life on plugs. >With internal power generation, the P-Mags should be very reliable. Agreed >The only common failure mode I can think of is an overvoltage event >that damages the electronics in both P-Mags. > >Do you know enough about the product design to comment on the >robustness of these products to a major overvoltage event ? Is there >a switching regulator that can handle almost anything ? I'll have to talk to Tom and Brad . . . my short visit with them last year left me with an impression of much smarter-than-average-bears. I'd like to believe their product is equal to or better than DO-160 qualification recommendations for aircraft. Of course, you could call them too! I've copied them on this message and expect an answer to your concern will be forthcoming. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:52 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > > Ahh yes...As I tell my engineers who want every cool gadget going on their sysytems..."Every component is an expensive point of failure" > > It's not a disease in the high-tech industry. It's a pandemic. You ask for a simple function to do a specific simple job. You get back several thousand lines of code with a dozen optional parameters and a slew of hidden side effects (for the uninitiated: unrelated things are changing that you don't expect). Software is a funny thing in that it is very easy to change. This leads to a mentality of "throw it at the wall, and let's keep what sticks". I don't know the veracity of the reports about all the displays going out on the airliners, but my experience tells me that it is very likely. I've seen code be approved by "professionals" that wouldn't pass muster in a freshman college class, and the argument is always that "we don't have time to fix it". If it passes QA (that also doesn't have time to fix anything), then it is shipped. Proper software engineering requires the same sort of methodical, tedious system review and modularity that we expect to put in our electrical design. In the end, that is exactly what it is, a lot of tiny electrical switches going off all over the place. The fault scenarios are often difficult to identify. Even people who should know better often forget this. -- http://www.ronpaultimeline.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.