Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:35 AM - Fw: Serious Incident to Piper PA-34-200T,Reg: EI-CMT,on 7 November 2007, at Shannon CTA, Co Kerry. (Andrew Butler)
2. 04:23 AM - Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR)
3. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures (Chuck Jensen)
4. 06:11 AM - relay wiring question (Jerry Ricciotti)
5. 06:38 AM - Re: Fraudulent Purchase Attampt (Off Topic) (Eric M. Jones)
6. 06:40 AM - Re: Serious Incident to Piper PA-34-200T (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:03 AM - Re: relay wiring question (Robert Borger)
8. 07:07 AM - Re: Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures ()
9. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Fraudulent Purchase Attampt (Off Topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 11:23 AM - Aux Power Socket (ianwilson2)
11. 11:28 AM - Re: Aux Power Socket (Alfio)
12. 11:44 AM - Re: Aux Power Socket (ianwilson2)
13. 12:20 PM - Re: Aux Power Socket (Ivor Phillips)
14. 01:56 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/06/08 (Jeff Page)
15. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/06/08 (Harley)
16. 02:30 PM - Re: relay wiring question (Jerry Ricciotti)
17. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Fraudulent Purchase Attampt (Off Topic) (n801bh@netzero.com)
18. 04:59 PM - SD-20 repairable? (Alan Adamson)
19. 06:35 PM - Re: relay wiring question (Bob White)
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Subject: | Fw: Serious Incident to Piper PA-34-200T,Reg: EI-CMT,on |
7 November 2007, at Shannon CTA, Co Kerry.
Published yesterday by the Air Accident Investigation Unit in Ireland.
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10887-0.pdf
Concerns a complete electrical failure aboard a twin Piper on an IFR
flight during winter. Safe landing in the end.
Thoughts on lessons learned?
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: AAIU
Subject: Serious Incident to Piper PA-34-200T,Reg: EI-CMT,on 7 November
2007, at Shannon CTA, Co Kerry.
Subscriber,
The AAIU have published Final Report No. 2008-018 on www.aaiu.ie
concerning a Piper PA-34-200T, Reg: EI-CMT, which occurred on 7 November
2007, at Shannon CTA, Co Kerry.
It's URL is <http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10887-0.pdf
Regards
AAIU
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Subject: | Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures |
I concur! "Never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time
to do it over again"!
Fred Stucklen
Sr Software Engineer
If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has
not achieved, and never will achieve, its full potential, that word
would be "meetings."
Time: 05:25:52 PM PST US
From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
> Ahh yes...As I tell my engineers who want every cool gadget
going on their sysytems..."Every
component is an expensive point of failure"
>
>
It's not a disease in the high-tech industry. It's a pandemic.
You ask
for a simple function to do a specific simple job. You get back
several
thousand lines of code with a dozen optional parameters and a slew
of
hidden side effects (for the uninitiated: unrelated things are
changing
that you don't expect).
Software is a funny thing in that it is very easy to change. This
leads
to a mentality of "throw it at the wall, and let's keep what
sticks". I
don't know the veracity of the reports about all the displays
going out
on the airliners, but my experience tells me that it is very
likely.
I've seen code be approved by "professionals" that wouldn't pass
muster
in a freshman college class, and the argument is always that "we
don't
have time to fix it". If it passes QA (that also doesn't have
time to
fix anything), then it is shipped.
Proper software engineering requires the same sort of methodical,
tedious system review and modularity that we expect to put in our
electrical design. In the end, that is exactly what it is, a lot
of
tiny electrical switches going off all over the place. The fault
scenarios are often difficult to identify. Even people who
should know
better often forget this.
--
http://www.ronpaultimeline.com <http://www.ronpaultimeline.com/>
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Subject: | Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures |
We let our customers do all of our beta testing. :-)
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures
I concur! "Never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time
to do it over again"!
Fred Stucklen
Sr Software Engineer
If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has
not achieved, and never will achieve, its full potential, that word
would be "meetings."
Time: 05:25:52 PM PST US
From: Ernest Christley < echristley@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
> Ahh yes...As I tell my engineers who want every cool gadget
going on their sysytems..."Every
component is an expensive point of failure"
>
>
It's not a disease in the high-tech industry. It's a pandemic.
You ask
for a simple function to do a specific simple job. You get back
several
thousand lines of code with a dozen optional parameters and a slew
of
hidden side effects (for the uninitiated: unrelated things are
changing
that you don't expect).
Software is a funny thing in that it is very easy to change. This
leads
to a mentality of "throw it at the wall, and let's keep what
sticks". I
don't know the veracity of the reports about all the displays
going out
on the airliners, but my experience tells me that it is very
likely.
I've seen code be approved by "professionals" that wouldn't pass
muster
in a freshman college class, and the argument is always that "we
don't
have time to fix it". If it passes QA (that also doesn't have
time to
fix anything), then it is shipped.
Proper software engineering requires the same sort of methodical,
tedious system review and modularity that we expect to put in our
electrical design. In the end, that is exactly what it is, a lot
of
tiny electrical switches going off all over the place. The fault
scenarios are often difficult to identify. Even people who
should know
better often forget this.
--
http://www.ronpaultimeline.com <http://www.ronpaultimeline.com/>
Message 4
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Subject: | relay wiring question |
I am looking for the proper way to wire my battery and starter
contactor.
I have a Spruce bought battery contactor, which is a White-Rodgers Type
70 DC power contactor. I expected to see two large posts and two small
posts on the unit but it has only one small post. The manufactures web
site refers to this as a "Terminal Type 3B - Coil Common to Load" . I
want to confirm how to properly wire this to my DPDT master switch, the
manufacturers diagram shows a pig tail to the small post from large post
that is connected to battery positive. I assume I wire from that large
post to the master switch and the back to small post on the contactor.
There is no connection from the master switch to ground in this case?
Part 2
I have B&C starter relay, it also has only one small post.
I assume that it is grounded through it's own case and I should bring
positive line through the starter switch and back to the small post and
then pig tail a ground wire from the case mounting bolt to the firewall
ground?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Jerry
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Fraudulent Purchase Attampt (Off Topic) |
In the hope that even one vendor will be saved from this, I relate my recent experience
with a guy who wanted to buy some large quantity of my stuff and tried
to scam me. But, even though I was born in the morning, I wasn't born THIS MORNING.
Be careful out there.
> Dear Eric,
> Thanks for the total quote of my order.The total cost of my order is quite correct
and okay by me and I'm ready to pay the bills . I shall inform my freight
forwarder who will be coming to pick up the order to hold on and come immediately
you inform me that the items are ready for pick up then i can give you
a call on that day to get the items packed for pick up and they will call you
on their arrival at your address.Also I want you to help me Charge another
$230.00 from my card for the freight forwarder who will be coming to pick up
my ordered items from you.
>
> The $230.00 that will be sent to the freight forwarder is for the shipping of
my order and other items i ordered from different part of the country which
is to be picked up by him and should be deducted from my credit card.Also, I'm
compensating you with the sum of $90.00 for the transfer fee and for your efforts.
Please note that i should have given the shipping agency my credit card
for him to deduct the freight charges but he told me that he doesn't have the
facilities to charge or debit credit card , so that's why i bring my vote
of confidence in you and i want you to assist me in this measure, so i want you
to transfer the funds to him after you have make the charges and the money
charged from my credit card is in your account,then you can now make the transfer
to the agent via western union.i will have love to do this my self but there
are no western union here around me cos i am out of town to monitor my estate
construction at a remote village,So the charges you'll make on my credit
card will be:
>
> Order Fee: $450.00
> Agent fee with shipping fare: $230.00
> Transfer Fee plus Your Compensation: $90.00
> Total: $770.00
>
> I await your quick response.
> Kind Regards
>
> Terry Gilson C & H Store Inc
> > 67 Whitbread Street, Taree, NSW, 2430, Australia
> > Phone +61 8 9467 5956, Fax (08) 9439 5544
> > Email:candhstoreinc@gmail.com
So I'll be taking a bogus credit card and handing a box of stuff to some yokel
in a car? Never to be seen again. I especially like the smooth tip-off "$90 for
the transfer fee and for your efforts".
"...this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump
out of this brand-new deck of cards and squirt cider in your ear. But, son,
do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you're going to
wind up with an ear full of cider." ---Guys and Dolls
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197105#197105
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Serious Incident to Piper PA-34-200T |
At 10:33 AM 8/7/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>Published yesterday by the Air Accident Investigation Unit in Ireland.
>
>http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10887-0.pdf
>
>Concerns a complete electrical failure aboard a twin Piper on an IFR
>flight during winter. Safe landing in the end.
>
>Thoughts on lessons learned?
>
>Andrew.
This is an interesting case. While the symptom was not repeated
by experiment (difficult and hazardous) the deduction drawn by
the investigators is quite plausible. There is only one error
in the data which is the 0.3 ohm contact resistance cited for
the contactor specification . . . this is probably 0.3 MILLIOHMS.
Obviously, a contactor with 300 milliohms resistance would be
useless.
If one tracks the history of system evolution for aircraft,
the first time this airplane (or it's ancestors) flew, it
was fitted with generators. Generators are noteworthy for
their ability to function without benefit of external
power for excitation support. The history of the 6041
series contactors in aircraft and throughout industry
has been exemplary. However, they DO have a service life
and they do WEAR OUT at some point in time.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/6041_Contactor_Failure.jpg
The MTBF study offered up in the report spoke to "three
failures" . . . of course, these were failures that generated
noteworthy incidents such as the case under study. There
were thousands of failures for both battery and starter
contactors where the difficulty was discovered on the
ground or the contactor was teamed with generators
and the in-flight failure of a battery contactor did not
generate a reportable incident.
This is a GREAT example of how architecture, selection
of components, and plan-a/plan-b operating procedures
can utilize seemingly pedestrian components in a way
that failures are simply maintenance events as opposed
to reportable events (where there was risk of bending
an airplane or occupants).
It was consideration of vulnerabilities demonstrated
by various components that evolved the Z-figures. First
with addition of the e-bus in Z-11. Had the case study
airplane been fitted with an e-bus, they would not have
needed to resort to cell phone communications or augering
around in clouds sans electronic nav aids. The next
step was independent, cross-feed electrical systems,
Z-14. Obviously a giant step above any of the intertwined
architectures that fly in the majority of GA aircraft.
I'm aware of NO production aircraft that features such
an architecture.
The shift to all electric panels vacated the vacuum
pump pad. A second engine driven power source could
utilize the vacated pad and offer up a three layer system
illustrated in Z-11. (1) Battery only + e-bus (2)
battery + e-bus supported by 8A engine driven power
source holding the battery in reserve for approach to
landing and (3) full up battery + e-bus + main bus
supported by ships normal alternator.
With the advent of the SD-20 offered into GA aircraft
and Z-12 architecture, they can come close to a
Z-11 configuration . . . but there is still the specter
of battery contactor failure that could generate a
total loss of system under certain conditions.
We were able to address that issue on the Cessna
337 when for a short time there was a small battery
pack of flashlight cells and a push button offered up
to kick-start a stalled alternator. Later, we took
a 3-phase rectifier off the tach generator to provide
a source of voltage for the same purpose.
Decades later, we're finding alternators that either
by accident or on-purpose design have enough residual
rotor magnetism to come on line self-excited. Given
the speed at which we rotate little automotive
alternators in belt-driven applications, it may
be that most of those installations will come up
without a battery . . . if lightly loaded.
Certainly, there are little features we could explore
but without a broad spectrum of purposeful design
amongst the field of suitable alternators, it's
not likely that we'll be able to recommend exploitation
of this quality . . . hence the configuration
the z-figures as presently published.
Is there value in combing through these reports?
Certainly. There is (1) the potential for making us aware
of previously undiscovered/unconsidered failure
modes and (2) re-enforcement of our confidence in
the state of our art in crafting failure tolerant
systems.
The sad part is the regulatory hurdles that prevent
our brothers on the TC side of the house from exploiting
the simple pleasures of electrical system confidence
we enjoy on OBAM aircraft. Present trends plotted out
into the future do not suggest they will ever be
beneficiaries of such freedoms.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: relay wiring question |
Jerry,
The 12 volt cable from the battery to the battery contactor also provides the power
to the contactor. You run a wire from the single small terminal to your
master switch and another wire from the master switch to ground. The master switch
then provides ground to complete the circuit and activate the contactor.
The starter relay requires that 12 volts be supplied to the small terminal for
the relay to activate. Yes, ground is through the case. If your aircraft is
composite or tube and fabric construction then you should run a ground wire from
the case mount bolt to the firewall ground block. If your aircraft is aluminum
ground should be available directly from the airframe.
I hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Europa XS, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
On Thursday, August 07, 2008, at 08:27AM, "Jerry Ricciotti" <gfr56@comcast.net>
wrote:
>I am looking for the proper way to wire my battery and starter contactor.
>
>I have a Spruce bought battery contactor, which is a White-Rodgers Type 70 DC
power contactor. I expected to see two large posts and two small posts on the
unit but it has only one small post. The manufactures web site refers to this
as a "Terminal Type 3B - Coil Common to Load" . I want to confirm how to properly
wire this to my DPDT master switch, the manufacturers diagram shows a pig
tail to the small post from large post that is connected to battery positive.
I assume I wire from that large post to the master switch and the back to small
post on the contactor. There is no connection from the master switch to ground
in this case?
>
>Part 2
>I have B&C starter relay, it also has only one small post.
>I assume that it is grounded through it's own case and I should bring positive
line through the starter switch and back to the small post and then pig tail
a ground wire from the case mounting bolt to the firewall ground?
>
>Thanks in advance for your help.
> Jerry
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Article from AOPA on Glass EFIS failures |
---- Chuck Jensen <cjensen@dts9000.com> wrote:
> We let our customers do all of our beta testing. :-)
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
You work for Microsoft!? 8*)
That's one of my favorite quotes, that I use when I'm getting to the end of my
frustration quota with 'managers' that are just being dumb. "Hell, just ship
it. The customers will ALWAYS tell us what's wrong with it."
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Fraudulent Purchase Attampt (Off Topic) |
At 06:36 AM 8/7/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>In the hope that even one vendor will be saved from this, I relate my
>recent experience with a guy who wanted to buy some large quantity of my
>stuff and tried to scam me. But, even though I was born in the morning, I
>wasn't born THIS MORNING. Be careful out there.
>
<snip>
I get several requests per year to confirm that I can
take orders paid for by Visa or MC to be shipped to
Nigeria or some such remote place . . . when my website
clearly states that we do process charge cards.
A number of these inquiries ask me to acquire merchandise
that is not even offered on the website . . . but clearly
available from dozens if not hundreds of sites elsewhere
on the 'net.
You are quite justified in your suspicions.
On a trip to Brazil some years ago, I watched a DC6
being unloaded of PT-6 engines and $millions$ of other
goodies. The location was on a ramp at a well known
aircraft manufacturer. It was illegal to deal in dollars
for external trade . . . but the local currency was running
about 500% per year inflation . . . essentially worthless.
The government choose to 'overlook' these flights between
Florida and Brazil where the plane came in with much needed
parts to keep the workers employed, and flew back with literally
$millions$ in suitcases full of dollars!
Drop your customer a note telling him that his courier
is most welcome to pick up the shipment if he first hands
you a fist full of dollars!
It's the way honorable criminals conduct themselves!
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Aux Power Socket |
Is there a convention for which of the 2 terminals in an Aux/cigar lighter port
goes to + or -? I'm currently wiring my Aux power socket and wondered what everyone
else does. I can't seem to find anything definite on whether to wire
the centre pin or the outside pin to the +. Does it actually matter?
Thanks in advance.
Ian
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197164#197164
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Aux Power Socket |
Yes it matters. Center pin is positive.
You'll note that the pin that is off-center will be shorted to the case of the
receptacle, which in turn would be shorted in the panel. You would quickly know
you wired it wrong.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197167#197167
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Aux Power Socket |
Thanks Alfio. Good job I checked. It never ceases to amaze me that these things
can be produced and not labeled, assuming that everyone knows what they're
doing - clearly wrong in my case!
Ian
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197169#197169
Message 13
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Subject: | Aux Power Socket |
The standard convention is Positive + to the centre pin and Negative -
to the outside body or pin,
Yes it definitely matters!
Ivor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ianwilson2
Sent: 07 August 2008 19:19
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aux Power Socket
<ianwilson2@hotmail.com>
Is there a convention for which of the 2 terminals in an Aux/cigar
lighter port goes to + or -? I'm currently wiring my Aux power socket
and wondered what everyone else does. I can't seem to find anything
definite on whether to wire the centre pin or the outside pin to the +.
Does it actually matter?
Thanks in advance.
Ian
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197164#197164
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/06/08 |
> I'll have to talk to Tom and Brad . . . my short
> visit with them last year left me with an impression
> of much smarter-than-average-bears. I'd like to believe
> their product is equal to or better than DO-160 qualification
> recommendations for aircraft.
>
> Of course, you could call them too!
I would expect a "sales" answer to a call like this :-(
An outsider who has seem the schematics and heard the behind the
scenes stories can usually provide the more truthful answer I am
looking for.
I had a lot of trouble with the intercom on my Cessna last year. It
turned out that the headset used the mic bias voltage to power the
audio amplifier. After reverse engineering much of the intercom
circuitry, I was appalled at the design. Although it was a 4 place
intercom, the co-pilot circuitry "borrowed" some of the pilot's
circuitry during transmit. So the pilot lost mic bias voltage and the
audio disappeared whenever the co-pilot transmitted. No problem when
normal headsets were used with the intercom and no problem when these
headsets were used with other intercoms. Yuck.
The headset manufacturer was very forthcoming with the design details
necessary for me to figure this out. The intercom manufacturer
(including the president) absolutely insisted there was nothing wrong
with the design of the intercom. They were very helpful swapping out
my intercom for another to confirm it was functioning correctly, but
that did not fix the problem of course.
Having finally solved it, I encouraged the intercom manufacturer to at
least make all their tech support people aware of this issue, since
with the number of those intercoms in the field and the popularity of
the headsets being sold, the problem would certainly be an issue for
others. They treated this like an unusual case that concerned no one
else.
Based on this, I am hesitant to purchase a new audio panel for my
Tundra from this very popular intercom manufacturer. What if the same
guy designed this product too ?
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/06/08 |
Afternoon, Jeff...
>>I would expect a "sales" answer to a call like this :-( <<
Excuse me for inserting my two cents here, but I think I have something
to offer as well.
I doubt very much that you would get a salesmen's type of reply to any
call you make to Brad. Tom and Brad ARE Emagair ... not salesmen or
support staff. Even though, come to think of it, they also ARE salesmen
AND the support staff. And the designers, and the technicians...well you
get the picture.
A more helpful and knowledgeable couple of guys I've never run across
with any company. They would not pull any punches or give you any false
information about their products. No one, either in their company or
users, knows their products better than they do, and in this case, I
relying on information from "An outsider who has seem the schematics and
heard the behind the scenes stories" would not be as informed or helpful
as Brad would be.
Excellent company to do business with...
As far as user stories, I think there are some here in the archives if
you want to search for them...maybe also in the Canard-Aviators Yahoo
group, if you belong to that as well.
Harley Dixon (biased...2 P-mags <G>)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Page wrote:
>
>> I'll have to talk to Tom and Brad . . . my short
>> visit with them last year left me with an impression
>> of much smarter-than-average-bears. I'd like to believe
>> their product is equal to or better than DO-160 qualification
>> recommendations for aircraft.
>>
>> Of course, you could call them too!
>
> I would expect a "sales" answer to a call like this :-(
> An outsider who has seem the schematics and heard the behind the
> scenes stories can usually provide the more truthful answer I am
> looking for.
>
> I had a lot of trouble with the intercom on my Cessna last year. It
> turned out that the headset used the mic bias voltage to power the
> audio amplifier. After reverse engineering much of the intercom
> circuitry, I was appalled at the design. Although it was a 4 place
> intercom, the co-pilot circuitry "borrowed" some of the pilot's
> circuitry during transmit. So the pilot lost mic bias voltage and the
> audio disappeared whenever the co-pilot transmitted. No problem when
> normal headsets were used with the intercom and no problem when these
> headsets were used with other intercoms. Yuck.
>
> The headset manufacturer was very forthcoming with the design details
> necessary for me to figure this out. The intercom manufacturer
> (including the president) absolutely insisted there was nothing wrong
> with the design of the intercom. They were very helpful swapping out
> my intercom for another to confirm it was functioning correctly, but
> that did not fix the problem of course.
>
> Having finally solved it, I encouraged the intercom manufacturer to at
> least make all their tech support people aware of this issue, since
> with the number of those intercoms in the field and the popularity of
> the headsets being sold, the problem would certainly be an issue for
> others. They treated this like an unusual case that concerned no one
> else.
>
> Based on this, I am hesitant to purchase a new audio panel for my
> Tundra from this very popular intercom manufacturer. What if the same
> guy designed this product too ?
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: relay wiring question |
Thanks for the reply
A comment and an additional question.
I noticed the battery contactor only works with the large post opposite the
small post connected to positive and does not work with the other large post
connected to positive (i.e.. flip flopping the positive)
This does not seem to be the case for the starter contactor, it seems to
work with either post connected to positive.
Is there a reason for this?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: relay wiring question
>
> Jerry,
>
> The 12 volt cable from the battery to the battery contactor also provides
> the power to the contactor. You run a wire from the single small terminal
> to your master switch and another wire from the master switch to ground.
> The master switch then provides ground to complete the circuit and
> activate the contactor.
>
> The starter relay requires that 12 volts be supplied to the small terminal
> for the relay to activate. Yes, ground is through the case. If your
> aircraft is composite or tube and fabric construction then you should run
> a ground wire from the case mount bolt to the firewall ground block. If
> your aircraft is aluminum ground should be available directly from the
> airframe.
>
> I hope this helps,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop
> http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
>
> On Thursday, August 07, 2008, at 08:27AM, "Jerry Ricciotti"
> <gfr56@comcast.net> wrote:
>>I am looking for the proper way to wire my battery and starter contactor.
>>
>>I have a Spruce bought battery contactor, which is a White-Rodgers Type 70
>>DC power contactor. I expected to see two large posts and two small posts
>>on the unit but it has only one small post. The manufactures web site
>>refers to this as a "Terminal Type 3B - Coil Common to Load" . I want to
>>confirm how to properly wire this to my DPDT master switch, the
>>manufacturers diagram shows a pig tail to the small post from large post
>>that is connected to battery positive. I assume I wire from that large
>>post to the master switch and the back to small post on the contactor.
>>There is no connection from the master switch to ground in this case?
>>
>>Part 2
>>I have B&C starter relay, it also has only one small post.
>>I assume that it is grounded through it's own case and I should bring
>>positive line through the starter switch and back to the small post and
>>then pig tail a ground wire from the case mounting bolt to the firewall
>>ground?
>>
>>Thanks in advance for your help.
>> Jerry
>
>
>
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Re: Fraudulent Purchase Attampt (Off Topic) |
Very easy to fight... Just take a lerge box,,, fill it with packing pean
uts,seal it up and tape the crap out of it so it takes forever to open.
Hand the guy the box while biting your tonque so you don't laugh so hard
. Off he goes with 'Nothing".. Better yet, call the local police, and ha
ve them waiting for this guy..... There is a great chance he is wanted f
or other stuff too...
do not archive
wanted to buy some large quantity of my stuff and tried to scam me. But,
even though I was born in the morning, I wasn't born THIS MORNING. Be c
areful out there.
> Dear Eric,
> Thanks for the total quote of my order.The total cost of my order is q
uite correct and okay by me and I'm ready to pay the bills . I shall in
form my freight forwarder who will be coming to pick up the order to ho
ld on and come immediately you inform me that the items are ready for pi
ck up then i can give you a call on that day to get the items packed fo
r pick up and they will call you on their arrival at your address.Also
I want you to help me Charge another $230.00 from my card for the freigh
t forwarder who will be coming to pick up my ordered items from you.
>
> The $230.00 that will be sent to the freight forwarder is for the ship
ping of my order and other items i ordered from different part of the c
ountry which is to be picked up by him and should be deducted from my c
redit card.Also, I'm compensating you with the sum of $90.00 for the tra
nsfer fee and for your efforts. Please note that i should have given th
e shipping agency my credit card for him to deduct the freight charges
but he told me that he doesn't have the facilities to charge or debit cr
edit card , so that's why i bring my vote of confidence in you and i wa
nt you to assist me in this measure, so i want you to transfer the fund
s to him after you have make the charges and the money charged from my c
redit card is in your account,then you can now make the transfer to the
agent via western union.i will have love to do this my self but there
are no western union here around me cos i am out of town to monitor my e
state construction at a remote village,So the charge!
s you'll make on my credit card will be:
>
> Order Fee: $450.00
> Agent fee with shipping fare: $230.00
> Transfer Fee plus Your Compensation: $90.00
> Total: $770.00
>
> I await your quick response.
> Kind Regards
>
> Terry Gilson C & H Store Inc
> > 67 Whitbread Street, Taree, NSW, 2430, Australia
> > Phone +61 8 9467 5956, Fax (08) 9439 5544
> > Email:candhstoreinc@gmail.com
So I'll be taking a bogus credit card and handing a box of stuff to some
yokel in a car? Never to be seen again. I especially like the smooth ti
p-off "$90 for the transfer fee and for your efforts".
"...this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of s
pades jump out of this brand-new deck of cards and squirt cider in your
ear. But, son, do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand ther
e, you're going to wind up with an ear full of cider." ---Guys and Dol
ls
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197105#197105
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Physical Therapy Certification Training - Save online. Click now.
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Message 18
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Subject: | SD-20 repairable? |
I had a secondary buss failure in the last couple of day. Tracked it back
to the alternator and SD-20. After some simple debugging, I decided to see
if I could see anything move inside it when I turned the engine over by
hand. While the ratio is pretty small, I could detect no movement. Further
I found that the cooling fins that I could see where moveable with a simple
small pointy tool inserted in the back of the unit while it was still
attached to the engine.
Long story short, after removal, I found that the input spline shaft was
intact (all of it's teeth there), but it freely spins and it's obvious that
it's not attached to the central armature of the SD-20 any longer.
Are these things serviceable? I called B&C, but no tech people until Monday
due to travel back from OSH.
Thot I'd ask here?
Thanks in advance,
Alan Adamson
Atlanta, Ga
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: relay wiring question |
Hi Jerry,
The reason is on the starter relay, the coil is activated by a positive
voltage to the small terminal and the case is grounded. It has nothing
to do with the large terminals. On the contactor, one side of the
coil is connected to one of the large terminals (BAT). The other side
is connected to ground through the master switch. If you connect the
large terminals backwards, then one side of the coil is NOT connected
to the battery and you can't activate the coil.
You have to get 12V across the coil to activate the contacts on both
devices. Look at the attached drawing and it should be easy to see why
you can't switch the large terminals on the contactor.
Bob W.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:27:51 -0400
"Jerry Ricciotti" <gfr56@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply
>
> A comment and an additional question.
> I noticed the battery contactor only works with the large post opposite the
> small post connected to positive and does not work with the other large post
> connected to positive (i.e.. flip flopping the positive)
> This does not seem to be the case for the starter contactor, it seems to
> work with either post connected to positive.
>
> Is there a reason for this?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:01 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: relay wiring question
>
>
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > The 12 volt cable from the battery to the battery contactor also provides
> > the power to the contactor. You run a wire from the single small terminal
> > to your master switch and another wire from the master switch to ground.
> > The master switch then provides ground to complete the circuit and
> > activate the contactor.
> >
> > The starter relay requires that 12 volts be supplied to the small terminal
> > for the relay to activate. Yes, ground is through the case. If your
> > aircraft is composite or tube and fabric construction then you should run
> > a ground wire from the case mount bolt to the firewall ground block. If
> > your aircraft is aluminum ground should be available directly from the
> > airframe.
> >
> > I hope this helps,
> > Bob Borger
> > Europa XS, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop
> > http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
> >
> > On Thursday, August 07, 2008, at 08:27AM, "Jerry Ricciotti"
> > <gfr56@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>I am looking for the proper way to wire my battery and starter contactor.
> >>
> >>I have a Spruce bought battery contactor, which is a White-Rodgers Type 70
> >>DC power contactor. I expected to see two large posts and two small posts
> >>on the unit but it has only one small post. The manufactures web site
> >>refers to this as a "Terminal Type 3B - Coil Common to Load" . I want to
> >>confirm how to properly wire this to my DPDT master switch, the
> >>manufacturers diagram shows a pig tail to the small post from large post
> >>that is connected to battery positive. I assume I wire from that large
> >>post to the master switch and the back to small post on the contactor.
> >>There is no connection from the master switch to ground in this case?
> >>
> >>Part 2
> >>I have B&C starter relay, it also has only one small post.
> >>I assume that it is grounded through it's own case and I should bring
> >>positive line through the starter switch and back to the small post and
> >>then pig tail a ground wire from the case mounting bolt to the firewall
> >>ground?
> >>
> >>Thanks in advance for your help.
> >> Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/
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