Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:54 AM - Re: B&C alterator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ()
2. 05:26 AM - LED Landing lights (Paul McAllister)
3. 09:02 AM - LED Landing lights (James H Nelson)
4. 09:11 AM - High resistance pops breaker? (user9253)
5. 10:00 AM - Re: High resistance pops breaker? (Dale Rogers)
6. 10:10 AM - Vertical Power VP-50 with an Egg 3.6L engine and Z19RB (DeWitt Whittington)
7. 01:26 PM - Re: Search for Gremlins (F. Tim Yoder)
8. 06:11 PM - Re: Search for Gremlins (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 06:17 PM - Re: Vertical Power VP-50 with an Egg 3.6L engine and Z19RB (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 06:48 PM - Re: High resistance pops breaker? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: B&C alterator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: B&C alterator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) |
> Bob and others -
> >I have a newly purchased RV8 with a B&C 40 amp alternator and automotive
> >style blade fuses. Good grounding with a firewall mounted ground bus
> >which is then routed to the engine. The digital ammeter indicates a
> >running load of 6-7 amps. The battery is a Concorde dry cell mounted on
> >the firewall. On two separate occasions the 15 amp alternator field fuse
> >has blown without any additional or noted transient loads being placed on
> >the alternator. The builder had this happen to him also and he thought it
> >was the battery so he replaced it. The new, year old Concorde battery has
> >great cranking power so I am not looking at this as a potential
> >problem. The only other problem I have noted is when using all of the
> >lights, strobes, fuel pump and electric flaps the main 40 amp C/B popped
> >once. Ignoring this as an overload my real problem appears to be the
> >field fuse. Why does the 15 amp field fuse blow and what's the smartest
> >way to diagnose this problem? Thank you. JBB
The first problem is that the original builder did not
understand the physics of the system he/she was crafting
and chose not to study and understand why the z-figures
were designed the way they are.
A 40A breaker on a 40A alternator is UNDERSIZED. The
nameplate rating of an alternator is for worst-case
conditions. I.e. minimum rpm for full output and max
ambient operating temperature. Under less stressful
conditions, the alternator may deliver 15 to 25%
more current.
This says that the 60A breaker on the b-lead of 60A
alternators in 100,000 GA aircraft is DESIGNED to
nuisance trip. Suggest you replace the 40A breaker
with a 30-50A current limiter out on the firewall.
There should not be a field fuse with an LR series
regulator. These us crowbar OV protection and are
designed to work downstream of a breaker only. Is
the recommended 5A breaker also installed? IF so,
the wiring between the breaker and the bus needs
little if any protection. The z-figures recommend
a fusible link . . . exceedingly robust compared
to the fuse.
Now we need to figure out what's irritating the
OV protection system. Do I presume correctly that
the regulator also came from B&C (LR3 series?) or
is there some other combination of regulator/ov
in place?
I'll assume that since the field protection is being
nuisance tripped, there is some form of crowbar
ov protection in place. The ov protection may
be an older version that was sensitive to some
forms of normal bus transients. The designs at
both B&C and AeroElectric Connection were modified
to eliminate that condition . . . the system you're
working with may need to be updated.
This is not a condition unique to 'crowbar' ov
protection. EVERY ov protection system has some
form of comparator between bus voltage and
some stable reference. When a setpoint is exceeded,
it sends a signal to some form of disconnect
device (relay, transistor, scr, etc). There is
a dynamic component to ov protection too . . .
voltage excursions above the setpoint are allowed
as long as they do not exceed certain time
intervals. It's the fine tuning of the dynamic
sensitivity that makes some products prone to
nuisance trips. I've probably designed two dozen
or more OV protection systems in my career, I've
only had to re-tune two of them. In one case,
the transient condition generated by the aircraft
was greater than the Mil-STD-704 guidelines
to which the product was crafted.
Tell us what regulator/ov combination is installed.
If an LR3, what's the manufacturing date? If
an AEC crowbar module, what colors of wires does
it have. Older versions are red/black, newer
are orange/black.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Thank you for opening up the design issues I hadn't even considered. I will return
home next week and provide the more detailed information you request. It
is a B&C voltage protection device of some sort I have seen and he used a "Z"
design but I'll have to get you the specifics. Thank you. JBB
Message 2
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Subject: | LED Landing lights |
Hi all,
I am returning to the list after a multi year hiatus. I completed my Europa 914
in 2004 using many of the design principals from Bob's book.
Anyhow what has prompted my return is my curiosity about the many LED landing lights
and strobe light replacements I saw at the Oshkosh air show this year.
The Europa doesn't lend its self well for the placement of landing lights, but
I was thinking that I could craft something up myself that would work.
Which brings me to my question. Does anyone on the list know what LED devices
and reflectors are being used for LED landing lights. If so, I would appreciate
it if someone could let me know.
Thanks, Paul McAllister
Europa N378PJ
Message 3
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Subject: | LED Landing lights |
Paul,
Do you have the Mono-wheel? If so, use the speed fairing around
the outrigger to mount the landing light. Bob Berube at Flight
Crafters did a landing light in teh leading edge of the wing. I don't
know who well it worked but the LED version should run cooler and thus
not effect the foam in a foam wing. Other wise, cut an opening in the
leading edge and and access opening in the back of it. That will work.
Jim Nelson
____________________________________________________________
Can't pay your bills? Click here to learn about filing for bankruptcy.
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Message 4
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Subject: | High resistance pops breaker? |
There was a "TECHNICAL COUNSELOR" article written in the April 2008 issue of Sport
Aviation about the landing light tripping a circuit breaker due to high resistance
connections. You can read the complete article here:
http://www.eaa.org/sportaviation/2008/april/0804_tc.pdf
In the August 2008 issue, a letter to the editor questions why a higher resistance
would result in higher current. Following is the "TECHNICAL COUNSELOR" author's
reply in the Aug 2008 Sport Aviation:
George's Reply:
Using Ohm's and Watt's laws, if a connection resistance increases, the voltage
drop across that resistance increases, which increases the current draw and power
demands on the circuit. The power draw of the engine and the lamp increase
as voltage drops. Adding to this issue is the fact that an engine-operated landing
light is marginal at best in terms of the circuit breaker rating; that is,
with the motor drive and the lamp, you're already close to the trip set point.
As the resistance increases in the contact stacksin this case because of corrosion
... the voltage drops across each of these series connections and in
turn causes the motor to see less voltage and draw more current to reach its power,
which in turn would trip the breaker in concert with the light turning on,
using voltage from the same source. Since the watts for the motor and lamp
remain relatively constant, the current rises.
As such, when you add in the voltage drop across even minor resistances in a stack
of contacts, due to the voltage drop, the current draw over the entire circuit
increases to the point where the circuit breaker trips.George Wilhelmsen
George Wilhelmsen holds a commercial certificate with an instrument rating and
has more than 1,000 hours of flight experience. He has a bachelors degree in engineering
technology with a background in DC, analog, and digital controls. He
flies a Beech Debonair.
End of quotes. Now this is Joe writing. The landing light in question had an
electric motor to retract the light into the wing when not in use. Motors do
draw more current when operated at less than design voltage. Perhaps the author
understands ohm's law but just did not explain it very well. I got the impression
that he was saying that a lamp uses more current if the electrical connections
have higher resistance. That is not true. I wonder, could this possibly
be the same George?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199509#199509
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: High resistance pops breaker? |
user9253 wrote:
>
> There was a "TECHNICAL COUNSELOR" article written in the April 2008 issue of
Sport Aviation about the landing light tripping a circuit breaker due to high
resistance connections.
...
> George's Reply:
> Using Ohm's and Watt's laws, if a connection resistance increases, the voltage
drop across that resistance increases, which increases the current draw and
power demands on the circuit. The power draw of the engine and the lamp increase
as voltage drops.
...
> George Wilhelmsen holds a commercial certificate with an instrument rating and
has more than 1,000 hours of flight experience. He has a bachelors degree in
engineering technology with a background in DC, analog, and digital controls.
He flies a Beech Debonair.
>
> End of quotes. Now this is Joe writing. The landing light in question had an
electric motor to retract the light into the wing when not in use. Motors do
draw more current when operated at less than design voltage. Perhaps the author
understands ohm's law but just did not explain it very well. I got the impression
that he was saying that a lamp uses more current if the electrical connections
have higher resistance. That is not true. I wonder, could this possibly
be the same George?
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
This is what happens when one writes an answer before s/he's had hir
morning cocoa/coffee (I've done that a few times myself.)
True enough, the high resistance connection does increase the voltage
~drop~ across the connection, but it is - in effect - subtracted from
the voltage across the total circuit; it becomes a circuit of series
loads. It's a shame that got past the proof-readers into a magazine with
world-wide distribution.
Dale R.
COZY MkIV #0497
Ch.12; Ch's 13, 16, 22 & 23 in-progress
Message 6
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Subject: | Vertical Power VP-50 with an Egg 3.6L engine and Z19RB |
At Oshkosh this year I spoke to a fellow Sportsman builder, Tim Dyer,
who asked if I had considered the Vertical Power VP-50 which sells
for about $1500. I knew about the VP-200 which is $6495 and had
considered it out of my price range. However, after looking at the
detailed data available on the VP web site, the VP-50 really does
look interesting and possibly affordable since there are three of us
building this Sportsman. www.verticalpower.com
So I posted a question on the Vertical Power forum about using the
VP-50 with the Bob Nuckolls Z19RB schematic. Here is the reply I got
within 2 hours from Marc Ausman, Mr. Vertical Power:
Vertical Power
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 223
Default
VP-50 with Subaru engine
You can use the VP-50 in the same manner as the VP-100 is used with
the Subaru engine. In the docs section of our web site, you'll see a
Subaru section. Use the VP-100 diagram as a reference - it is
essentially the Z-19 diagram, but we designed it with Eggenfellner.
The way we recommend wiring is as follows:
- the wiring specific for the Subaru engine is handled separately
from the VP system.
- the VP system is used to power all the other stuff on your aircraft.
- the VP system is used to monitor the voltage of both batteries. On
the VP-50, use J8 pin 12 input to monitor the aux battery voltage.
<http://www.verticalpower.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=988>
Reply With Quote
Any thoughts from anyone else?
Dee Whittington
DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
406 N Mulberry St
Richmond, VA 23220-3320
(804) 358-4333 phone and fax
SKYPE: hilltopkid
dee.whittington@gmail.com
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Search for Gremlins |
Hello Bob,
I did as you suggested and ran a temporary ground wire from the oil pressure
inst. to the crankcase. THE WIGGLE WENT AWAY!
I'll remove the engine to engine mount jumpers and add a fat ground wire
from the grounding buss to the crankcase per your recommendation.
Your time and effort, like O.C. Baker's, sure saves a lot of us a ton of
time and money.
Many Thanks, Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Search for Gremlins
<nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 11:47 PM 8/17/2008 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >8/17/2008
> >
> >To reply to the author, write to "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
> >
> >Report on this weekends search for Gremlins;
> >
> >I spent several hours under the panel checking all the ground buss
> >connections, breaker and switch grounds. I loosened the connections to
the
> >amp, volt, oil temp and oil pressure gauges, wiggled the terminals and re
> >tightened. I did the same thing to the alternator and removed the
regulator
> >spades and replaced them.I removed the radio, cleaned the connectors and
re
> >installed it. I checked the ground straps from the engine to the motor
> >mount. I spent some time looking for something,anything wrong.
>
> There should be no ground straps from engine to motor mount. Only
> one fat-wire jumper from crankcase to your single-point ground on
> the firewall.
>
>
> >I started the plane and found that I had not ran off any Gremlins. When I
> >turn on the Alt. the oil pressure dropped from 75# to 60# then settled on
> >70#, this takes about one second. As soon as I turn off the Alt. the oil
> >pressure goes back to 75#. With the radio and Alt. on the oil pressure
> >needle drops a needle width when I key the radio. Again, with the Alt.
off
> >keying the radio does not effect the oil pressure gauge which was back to
> >75#.
> >
> >I did not fly so I didn't have any radio issues. I think I need to find
the
> >cause of the apparent load on the oil pressure gauge first.
>
> It sounds like a ground loop issue driven by too much resistance
> between crankcase and the oil pressure instrument ground. Try
> removing the existing ground wire for the instrument and
> grounding the instrument directly to the crankcase.
>
> If this makes the wiggle go away, I'll suggest you remove all
> jumpers from engine to mount and add one fat-jumper between
> crankcase and ground block.
>
>
> >Oh, the Amp. meter is a little positive at idle and the voltage is
showing
> >a charge of about 14.4V and 13.5V with at Alt. off.
>
> Those numbers are right in the ballpark.
>
>
> >I'll appreciate any suggestions.
> >
> >Thanks again, Tim
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Search for Gremlins |
At 09:41 PM 8/18/2008 -0700, you wrote:
<ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
Hello Bob,
Thank you for your suggestions. I will try grounding the oil pressure gauge
directly to the engine case and report the results.
FYI, my plane is a KIS two place all composite that I have been flying for
about 10 yrs. She has a little over 300 hrs. on her. This is a new problem
.As far as I know .I didn't add or change any operating systems prior to
these symptoms showing up.
Thank You Again, Tim
At 01:14 PM 8/19/2008 -0700, you wrote:
><ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>I did as you suggested and ran a temporary ground wire from the oil pressure
>inst. to the crankcase. THE WIGGLE WENT AWAY!
>
>I'll remove the engine to engine mount jumpers and add a fat ground wire
>from the grounding buss to the crankcase per your recommendation.
>
>Your time and effort, like O.C. Baker's, sure saves a lot of us a ton of
>time and money.
>
> Many Thanks, Tim
I'm pleased that it was such a simple fix. I'm also pleased
that you brought it up here on the List! In spite of our
reverence for The Word according to ISO: (1) cleaning the
spot where a terminal goes to structure and (2)
testing with a super-duper $high$ bonding meter, there
is often too little attention paid to ground system
architecture. "Grounding" is probably one of the least
understood technologies in vehicular systems design.
It gets worse every year with new design goals by the
special interest groups. One bunch of guys worry about
power distribution. Another bunch worries about
antenna performance. Yet another worries about lightning.
Another gets paid for sifting the sands on EMC/RFI
issues. Finally, there's the structures guys who
are more worried about corrosion and do their best
to insulate the important parts that the rest of
the guys are trying to keep connected together!
Fortunately for us in OBAM aircraft land, there
are some pretty simple recipes for success that tend
to yield consistent results over thousands of
airplanes. I've tried to gather those ingredients
together in chapter 5 and keep watching for new
things to add. Your willingness to share your
experience here validates one of the recipes
and is much appreciated.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power VP-50 with an Egg 3.6L engine |
and Z19RB
At 01:06 PM 8/19/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>At Oshkosh this year I spoke to a fellow Sportsman builder, Tim Dyer, who
>asked if I had considered the Vertical Power VP-50 which sells for about
>$1500. I knew about the VP-200 which is $6495 and had considered it out
>of my price range. However, after looking at the detailed data available
>on the VP web site, the VP-50 really does look interesting and possibly
>affordable since there are three of us building this
>Sportsman. www.verticalpower.com
>So I posted a question on the Vertical Power forum about using the VP-50
>with the Bob Nuckolls Z19RB schematic. Here is the reply I got within 2
>hours from Marc Ausman, Mr. Vertical Power:
>Vertical Power
>
>Join Date: Jan 2007
>Posts: 223
>17d450e8.jpg VP-50 with Subaru engine
>You can use the VP-50 in the same manner as the VP-100 is used with the
>Subaru engine. In the docs section of our web site, you'll see a Subaru
>section. Use the VP-100 diagram as a reference - it is essentially the
>Z-19 diagram, but we designed it with Eggenfellner.
>The way we recommend wiring is as follows:
>- the wiring specific for the Subaru engine is handled separately from the
>VP system.
>- the VP system is used to power all the other stuff on your aircraft.
>- the VP system is used to monitor the voltage of both batteries. On the
>VP-50, use J8 pin 12 input to monitor the aux battery voltage.
>
><http://www.verticalpower.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=988>17d45127.jpg<http://www.verticalpower.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=988>
>
>Any thoughts from anyone else?
Good evening my friend. I missed getting to OSH this year
but I WILL be there next year. If you still have the same
cell phone number, I'll bug you as soon as I hit the field.
We'll have to get together some evening.
I'm quite certain that the Vertical Power products perform
as advertised are well thought out and there are no safety
issues.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: High resistance pops breaker? |
At 09:55 AM 8/19/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>user9253 wrote:
>>
>>There was a "TECHNICAL COUNSELOR" article written in the April 2008 issue
>>of Sport Aviation about the landing light tripping a circuit breaker due
>>to high resistance connections.
>...
>>George's Reply:
>>Using Ohm's and Watt's laws, if a connection resistance increases, the
>>voltage drop across that resistance increases, which increases the
>>current draw and power demands on the circuit. The power draw of the
>>engine and the lamp increase as voltage drops.
>...
>>George Wilhelmsen holds a commercial certificate with an instrument
>>rating and has more than 1,000 hours of flight experience. He has a
>>bachelors degree in engineering technology with a background in DC,
>>analog, and digital controls. He flies a Beech Debonair.
>>
>>End of quotes. Now this is Joe writing. The landing light in question
>>had an electric motor to retract the light into the wing when not in
>>use. Motors do draw more current when operated at less than design
>>voltage. Perhaps the author understands ohm's law but just did not
>>explain it very well. I got the impression that he was saying that a
>>lamp uses more current if the electrical connections have higher
>>resistance. That is not true. I wonder, could this possibly be the same
>>George.
>>
>>--------
>>Joe Gores
>>
>
>This is what happens when one writes an answer before s/he's had hir
>morning cocoa/coffee (I've done that a few times myself.)
>
>True enough, the high resistance connection does increase the voltage
>~drop~ across the connection, but it is - in effect - subtracted from the
>voltage across the total circuit; it becomes a circuit of series loads.
>It's a shame that got past the proof-readers into a magazine with
>world-wide distribution.
It is not an automatic thing that motors draw more
current as the voltage goes down. There is a motor
torque constant (Kt) which is the effort delivered
at the shaft stated as a ratio of torqe/amps.
See:
http://www.portescap.com/catalog/35GLT%20spec%20page%207.08.pdf
Note the seven items under "Intrinsic Parameters". These
numbers enable the designer to predict any motor's performance
in a design. The item were interested in is the line
labeled mNm/A or millinewton-meters per amp.
Now, if the motor is driving a load where torque demand
is a function of speed, then the current draw of the motor
will be right in step with that function. So, let's visualize
a motorized landing light. If we crank it slower, would we
expect it to take more torque? Similarly, hydraulic pumps
resist rotation pretty much in proportion to the pressure
being exerted by the pump . . . if the flow in the system
goes down due to reduced speed, would we expect the pressure
to automatically get bigger?
I won't say that ALL motor driven systems demand the
same or more torque as speed goes down . . . but it's
an unusual system. Further, it's definitely not a system that
is raising or lowering a landing light against friction,
gravity and air-loads.
Motors slow down for two reasons, reduction in supply voltage
which is linked to the Back EMF constant. If torque demands
are the same, current will be the same.
The motor slows down because it is loaded heavier. Torque
goes up, losses in the motor terminal resistance goes up
and what's left over is treated just like a reduction
in supply voltage. Kt is still in play here and if the
torque is high enough, it may very well cause a breaker
to open.
But increases in series resistance alone are almost
never a recipe for tripping breakers.
Now, it occurs to me that the "high resistance joint"
was in fact a loose connection . . . i.e. an "intermittent
low resistance joint". Here's a case where rattling a
motor + lamp inrush currents MIGHT account for a
continuous stressing of a breaker with a series
of high current loads with a duty-cycle too low to
heat up the lamp+spin the motor but sufficiently
irritating to a breaker to trip it.
In this case, calling it a "high-resistance joint"
causes the wrong physics to be applied to the hypothetical
analysis. Low average duty cycle voltage to a motor-
lamp combination not only piles the admittedly
high lamp inrush on top of the low back-emf of a
non or very slowly spinning motor.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: B&C alterator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, |
III)
>
> Tell us what regulator/ov combination is installed.
> If an LR3, what's the manufacturing date? If
> an AEC crowbar module, what colors of wires does
> it have. Older versions are red/black, newer
> are orange/black.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Bob -
>Thank you for opening up the design issues I hadn't even considered. I
>will return home next week and provide the more detailed information you
>request. It is a B&C voltage protection device of some sort I have seen
>and he used a "Z" design but I'll have to get you the specifics. Thank
>you. JBB
Great! Looking forward to slaying this dragon with
you.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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