Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:29 AM - Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Steve Stearns)
2. 06:08 AM - Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Robert Borger)
3. 07:23 AM - Re: High resistance pops breaker? ("High resistance" defined) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:36 AM - Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:04 AM - Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (rampil)
6. 09:18 AM - Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (mikef)
7. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Robert Borger)
9. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (Roger & Jean)
11. 10:02 AM - Crimp Tool Alert (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 10:08 AM - Re: Dry Cell Batteries? (mikef)
13. 10:36 AM - Re: measuring capacitance. (Peter Laurence)
14. 10:39 PM - Crimpers (Jeff Page)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
I'm pretty familiar with VRLA batteries. This looked like something new
but it could be that I got caught by marketing spin (I hate it when that
happens...). I'll do some more homework and will report back if I find
something interesting.
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
Steve,
I think you are talking about the Odyssey "Dry Cell" battery series? If so, they
technology they use is "absorbed glass mat." The Odyssey folks call them "Dry
Cell" because if you were to break open the case, no electrolyte would run
out. It is totally contained within the glass mat material.
So, yes, a bit of advertising hype. But it is still an excellent battery. I have
an Odyssey 680 in my (under construction) Europa. The battery is 5 years
old. I've been using it to test the panel as it was installed. There were periods
as long as a year and a half where the battery sat unused. It held a charge
for those unused periods. After 5 years of such abuse, it still turns the
engine (Rotax 914) over quite briskly. Prior to first flight, I'm troubleshooting
a few last gremlins in the instrument panel and it will run the panel all
day long. When it's time to replace it, I'll have no hesitation replacing it
with another new Odyssey.
Just my two bits.
Bob Borger
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
On Tuesday, August 26, 2008, at 07:25AM, "Steve Stearns" <steve@tomasara.com> wrote:
>
>I'm pretty familiar with VRLA batteries. This looked like something new
>but it could be that I got caught by marketing spin (I hate it when that
>happens...). I'll do some more homework and will report back if I find
>something interesting.
>
>Steve Stearns
>Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
>CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
>Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
>Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: High resistance pops breaker? ("High resistance" |
defined)
I've received a number of private e-mails on the
"high resistance" joint thing that illustrated a
disconnect between the various participants in the
discussion with respect to the likely characteristics
of a "high resistance" joint.
We've discussed on these pages (and in my seminars)
the need for gas-tight joining of two materials for
the purpose of making long lived connections. The
easiest way (non destructive) to deduce the quality
of a joint is with a device called a "Bonding Meter".
We have one here that I've used many times both for
my work in the OBAM aircraft community and at RAC/H-B.
It's a 4-wire ohmmeter operating on principals similar
to those devices described in . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grnding.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/LowOhmsAdapter_3.pdf
The later article was crafted and published for the
benefit of technicians working RAC/H-B products attempting
to find degraded microswitches in landing gear position
indicating systems without pulling the devices off
the airplane.
My all time favorite tool is the T477W shown here
http://www.avtron.com/pdf/ate/t477w.pdf
Bought one of these for myself at a Boeing surplus
sale a few years back. This device uses an AC
signal to stress the joint under investigation.
It's MUCH easier to signal condition and measure
microvolts of AC than DC which is what makes this
instrument and it's close cousins so practical/
attractive.
When we speak of a "low resistance" connection in
"the business" . . . we're talking 500 MICRO-OHMS
max. It's not possible to get these values without
having pressing cleaned surfaces into intimate
contact with each other . . . i.e. gas tight. When
we speak of a "high resistance" joint, the bonding
meter says 600 uOhms or perhaps even 1-2 milliohms.
For most folk's way of thinking, this is still a
dead short (no such thing really - except in a
superconducting world). For those of us tasked with
crafting and maintaining a gas tight joint, loss of
bonding integrity is manifested in a 2x or greater
increase of normal resistance readings that are still quite
small in the grand scheme of things.
Now, how much resistance might one expect to see in
a joint where the two conductors are simply touched
but without a lot of pressure? It's still measured in
tens of milliohms . . . but for all practical purposes
a "good" but intermittent connection from the perspective
of troubleshooting things like retracting landing lights.
When a mechanic reports a "high resistance" connection
in some made-up joints (fast-on connection, ring terminal
over a screw, two pieces of brass bolted together) the
image I see in my head is a joint once measured in
micro-ohms having been elevated to the tens of milliohms.
In a cranking circuit, this joint would heat up, smoke,
and perhaps set things on fire when hit with 100+
amp loads.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/6041_Contactor_Failure.jpg
100 milliohms in series with the motor/lamp circuit
of our landing light example would have NO immediately
observable effect on landing light operations. Assuming
a 100W landing light (and I think many of those things
were 250w) the running current of 8A x 100 millohms
6.4 watts of HEAT being dumped into the joint. This kind
of stress causes localized heating that can begin to degrade
the materials locally over time. Not unlike the situation
that caused the switch failure discussed here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure.html
So when we speak of "high resistance" joints, I'll suggest
that the increase in resistance is not great enough to
produce readily observable effects. One MIGHT deduce a
high resistance joint by measuring voltage drop under load
(an adaptation of the 4-wire milliohmmeter technique)
but while a 100 milliohm joint will eventually smoke something
over time, it's certainly not the proximate cause of increased
current flow that opens breakers, ect.
I mentioned an "intermittent" joints . . . a joint that makes
transient good/bad connection. These joints will degrade over
time due to heating effects of arcing but for the most part,
they manifest themselves in the form of flickering lights,
upset radios, and get fixed before the failures at the
connection become catastrophic. The term "high resistance"
to describe the intermittent joint would not be expected to
produce the same mental images on the part of both writer and
reader.
An intermittent joint offers a whole new thought process that
explores different dynamics than the slow-moving effects of
localized heating. It's sad that both writers and publishers
of the kinds of articles that started this thread haven't a clue
as to the nature of microscopic, simple-ideas that drive the physics
of the situation they're discussing. Further, they may use words
that in their mind describes apples while their readers perceive
oranges.
The end product often generates and propagates more mis-
understanding than if the article had never been written.
Unfortunately, much of what passes for sage advice
in the revered documents of our craft do not pass muster as
lucid words of understanding. Caveat emptor - without warranty
a buyer assumes all risks. You are a buyer of ideas when you
spend $time$ to read, assimilate and apply notions proffered
by the words and illustrations. Critical review is NEVER a
bad idea for anything you read from the wild . . . from ANY source
(including aeroelectric.com).
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
At 08:07 AM 8/26/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Steve,
>
>I think you are talking about the Odyssey "Dry Cell" battery series? If
>so, they technology they use is "absorbed glass mat." The Odyssey folks
>call them "Dry Cell" because if you were to break open the case, no
>electrolyte would run out. It is totally contained within the glass mat
>material.
>
>So, yes, a bit of advertising hype. But it is still an excellent
>battery. I have an Odyssey 680 in my (under construction) Europa. The
>battery is 5 years old. I've been using it to test the panel as it was
>installed. There were periods as long as a year and a half where the
>battery sat unused. It held a charge for those unused periods. After 5
>years of such abuse, it still turns the engine (Rotax 914) over quite
>briskly. Prior to first flight, I'm troubleshooting a few last gremlins
>in the instrument panel and it will run the panel all day long. When it's
>time to replace it, I'll have no hesitation replacing it with another new
>Odyssey.
The Odyssey batteries are a product of the old
Gates-cum-Hawker-cum-EnerSys prismatic cell batteries
built here:
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/about.html
Got to tour this plant a few years ago while on
assignment with Raytheon/H-B. The full line of
their products can be seen at:
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/
Without a doubt, these products are at the leading
edge of battery quality and performance . . . with a price
to match. As I recall, about 700 folks running a highly
automated manufacturing process produces about 60,000
batteries a day!
But it's still an SVLA battery loaded with the same
water-acid mix used by their competitors.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
You don't have to be an old timer to remember that "dry cells"
are carbon - zinc flashlight batteries.
I love my Odyssey battery but it sounds like one of their marketing
folks stepped out on a limb without engineering support
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0675#200675
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you determine the
number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to find that in their
docs.
The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, and one
of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure how to answer
that, to build an accurate test.
Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0678#200678
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
At 09:17 AM 8/26/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you
>determine the number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to
>find that in their docs.
>
>The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester,
>and one of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure
>how to answer that, to build an accurate test.
ALL lead-acid batteries are composed of cells that
develop just over 2 volts per cell at room temperature.
Like the batteries used in our cars since day-one,
a 6v battery is 3 cells; a 12 battery is 6 cells,
etc.
I'm not sure why West Mountain puts that block into
their setup screen . . . the value placed in it has
no effect on how the test is run. It's a constant
current discharge + data acquisition system that will
yield the same plot irrespective of what values go
into the "battery type" and "cells" boxes.
I'm pleased that you've acquired one of these
very useful tools!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
Mike,
A single lead-acid cell will produce approximately 2.1 volts. For a 12 volt (
12.6 volts actually) battery that is 6 cells.
Check out "lead acid battery" in the Wikipedia.
Bob Borger
On Tuesday, August 26, 2008, at 11:17AM, "mikef" <mikefapex@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you determine the
number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to find that in their
docs.
>
>The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, and one
of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure how to answer
that, to build an accurate test.
>
>Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks,
>
>Mike
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0678#200678
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
At 09:03 AM 8/26/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>You don't have to be an old timer to remember that "dry cells"
>are carbon - zinc flashlight batteries.
Hmmmm . . . I think the witch's brew of gooey stuff
in side was still moist and probably water based. I
also recall how badly they could leak! There was a time
that one battery manufacturer (Eveready I think) offered
to repair or replace any appliance that was trashed due
to leakage of their new and improved cells.
>I love my Odyssey battery but it sounds like one of their marketing
>folks stepped out on a limb without engineering support.
It's been my experience that the last folks marketing
wants to hear from are the engineers!
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
* AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mikef" <mikefapex@gmail.com>
A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you determine
the number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to find that in
their docs.
The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, and
one of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure how to
answer that, to build an accurate test.
Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks,
Mike
Mike,
* Lead acid batteries, such as the odessey, are about 2 V per cell, which
means a 12V battery has 6 cells.
*
* Roger
Message 11
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| Subject: | Crimp Tool Alert |
I noticed another PIDG tool on the HF website that
I'd cited before but never put my hands on one. They
were on sale a few weeks ago so I purchased one for
$7.50.
It's a very capable clone of the $low$ tools that have
been out in the wild for 20 years . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/Harbor_Freight_93977.gif
. . . but with improvements that sculptured the dies
(particularly on the insulation grip side).
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/Harbor_Freight_97420.gif
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/Harbor_Freight_97420.jpg
I'm disappointed to report to you that while this tool
does do a good wire grip, crush height is too tall to
grip the smaller diameter wires we use in the airplanes.
Some of you may recall that we encountered this condition
once before. A Cleveland Tool crimper . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/CLEVELAND60A.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/CLEVELAND61A.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/CLEVELAND65A.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/CLEVELAND66A.jpg
The HF product is a great, low cost alternative to going
first class
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/AMP_T-Head_2.jpg
but in this case, the tool just doesn't cut it for purposes
close to our hearts.
I'll experiment with some modifications to the tool to see
if it can be shimmed . . . but then, if I spend more than
20 minutes on making it work, I've blown the cost of ownership
advantage for having acquired the low cost tool in the first
place!
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dry Cell Batteries? |
Thanks for the battery cell info, it does help.
I am very glad to have gotten the CBA battery tester and look forward to using
it. I'll post feedback as I run some tests.
Sunday I fired up the engine on my new Z19 system and ground ran for a few minutes.
All smoke stayed in wires, major circuits worked as expected. Its a beautiful
thing.
Thanks again,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0694#200694
Message 13
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| Subject: | measuring capacitance. |
Thanks to all who responded to my capacitance question.
All have been very helpful
Peter
RV9A fuse
Do not archive
Message 14
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Searching through the archives, the comment made was that the best
stripper is the Ideal 45-187, which naturally is discontinued.
Looking through their catalog shows a wide variety of apparently
almost identical strippers.
The 45-177 seems quite similar, but is missing the short stop latch
and wire stop. How useful are those features ? Should I be looking
for a 45-187 in the marketplace anyway ?
Non of the the strippers seem to handle the range of wire that is used
in aircraft. Do I need to buy two strippers to handle 10-14 gauge and
another for 16-26, or can I just swap blades (how much of a pain is
that ??) ?
What about the "Lite" strippers, smaller and easier to squeeze sounds
great. What is the downside ?
Additionally, I was unable to find any recommendations for Molex
0.062" contacts. How about the Sargent 3133-CT ?
Thanks !
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
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