Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:07 AM - symbol meanings (Mick Muller)
2. 04:34 AM - Re: symbol meanings (JOHN TIPTON)
3. 05:03 AM - Re: Re: Push-to-Test Lamp (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
4. 05:07 AM - Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel)
5. 05:16 AM - Re: symbol meanings (Werner Schneider)
6. 05:27 AM - Re: Crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: Push-to-Test Lamp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:03 AM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Ernest Christley)
9. 06:03 AM - Re: symbol meanings (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 06:10 AM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Push-to-Test Lamp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 06:37 AM - Re: symbol meanings (Andrew Butler)
13. 07:25 AM - Re: symbol meanings (Dan Brown)
14. 07:28 AM - Re: Push-to-Test Lamp (Eric M. Jones)
15. 07:28 AM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel)
16. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Push-to-Test Lamp (Ernest Christley)
17. 08:03 AM - Re: Surplus Crimpers (Jeff Page)
18. 02:04 PM - Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations (Richard Girard)
19. 03:04 PM - Re: symbol meanings (Larry Mac Donald)
20. 05:34 PM - Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 06:03 PM - EV200 circuit (Fergus Kyle)
22. 06:52 PM - Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations (Richard Girard)
23. 08:03 PM - Re: symbol meanings (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 08:17 PM - Re: Any excuse to go flying . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 08:19 PM - Re: EV200 circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 08:42 PM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 09:10 PM - Electroair ignition (Dave Leikam)
Message 1
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Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams and
see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
respectively??
Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
If you ask a question, you may sometimes be a 'complete idiot' for 5
seconds - if you don't ask the question you may remain a 'complete idiot'
for the rest of your life
You are correct in you assumptions re: Normally Closed (circuit complete) -
Normally Open (circuit isolated)
Regards - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Muller" <mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
> <mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams and
> see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
> respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
>Bob:
>
>I've purchased 2 Push-to-Test Lamps: MS25041 (amber) for my Low Voltage
>Warning Lamp and another one (blue) for Low Oil Pressure. The lamps
have3
>tabs, numbered 1-2-3 and I'm trying to determine how to wire this lamp:
>which is ground, hot and common....
>
>Any help or suggestions appreciated.
A schematic for the fixture can be found at:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg
An exemplar application can be found in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Bob . . .
It looks like the test lamp function will not work on the gndpwr.pdf
drawing. When ground power is removed there is no power to test lamp.
To wire a low oil pressure switch: assuming the switch is normally open
and
goes to ground, connect pin 1 to fused 12V, pin 2 (normally closed) to
the
oil pressure switch, and pin 3 to ground.
Roger
Message 4
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Subject: | Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
I took a look at the new kitplanes article on how to build an elegant LED driver
for aircraft.
Up until now I have been planning to use an off the shelf cheap constant current
power supply from LEDDYNAMICs. But people are reporting everywhere that these
things are trashing the aircraft radios with RF noise.
That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver have
over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem still exist
with that driver as well?
>From looking at the circuit, it looks similar to what one might think the LEDDynamics
one would look like inside.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1142#201142
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
Hello Mick,
your assumption is a 100% correct and don't worry we all started there
one time!
Keep ongoing, you're doing well (BTW sometimes "googling" helps)
Werner
Mick Muller wrote:
> <mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams
> and see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
> respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
Message 6
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At 08:53 PM 8/27/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><bledbetter@hughes.net>
>
>Bob..
>
>Looks like that link to for the 177 data should be
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Tools/Ideal_Stripmaster/Stripmaster.pdf
>
>v. the ... /stripmaster.pdf
Correct. Thanks! I have to be careful when testing links while
crafting the html in my desktop, windows doesn't care about
capitalization but Unix on the server does. Got the target
url and two links on the server to agree but forgot to go
back and correct the list-server posting.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
At 07:59 AM 8/28/2008 -0400, you wrote:
> >Bob:
> >
> >I've purchased 2 Push-to-Test Lamps: MS25041 (amber) for my Low Voltage
> >Warning Lamp and another one (blue) for Low Oil Pressure. The lamps have3
> >tabs, numbered 1-2-3 and I'm trying to determine how to wire this lamp:
> >which is ground, hot and common....
> >
> >Any help or suggestions appreciated.
>
>A schematic for the fixture can be found at:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg
>
>An exemplar application can be found in:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> It looks like the test lamp function will not work on the gndpwr.pdf
>drawing. When ground power is removed there is no power to test lamp.
Correct . . . it also shows that no ground power is applied.
The idea here is that the pilot can know that ground power
is available before actually applying it to the airplane.
The PTT function can be used for more purposes that to
query condition of the lamp. I've used these fixtures as
push-button, lamp-holder combinations wherein the NO contact
of the fixture is used to signal a circuit to do a self-test
routine that ends with the lamp responding in some prescribed
manner. I've also used the contact to start an auto-terminating
operation . . . like trigger a timer on a bilge pump in a
sea-plane. It runs for a period of time (light is lit) and then
shuts off (light goes out).
>To wire a low oil pressure switch: assuming the switch is normally open and
>goes to ground, connect pin 1 to fused 12V, pin 2 (normally closed) to the
>oil pressure switch, and pin 3 to ground.
Yup, that works!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Brantel wrote:
> That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver have
over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem still exist
with that driver as well?
>
Education.
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
At 02:14 PM 8/28/2008 +0200, you wrote:
>
>Hello Mick,
>
>your assumption is a 100% correct and don't worry we all started there one
>time!
>
>Keep ongoing, you're doing well (BTW sometimes "googling" helps)
>
>Werner
>
>Mick Muller wrote:
>><mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
>>
>>Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>>
>>I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams
>>and see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
>>Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
>>respectively??
I've oft suggested to new students of the art that
schematics are "road maps" for electrons. The first
time we picked up an aeronautical chart, there was
much in common with Rand McNally road maps but with
many new cryptic symbols and terminology. By the time
we had a few cross country flights in the log, we
could communicate with some competence in the new
"language".
The schematics are no different so the advice of the
ages applies here too . . . until you ask, you
will endure the effects of not knowing.
Welcome to the AeroElectric-List classroom Mike.
Holler if any of us can help!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
At 05:05 AM 8/28/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I took a look at the new kitplanes article on how to build an elegant LED
>driver for aircraft.
>
>Up until now I have been planning to use an off the shelf cheap constant
>current power supply from LEDDYNAMICs. But people are reporting
>everywhere that these things are trashing the aircraft radios with RF noise.
>
>That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver
>have over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem
>still exist with that driver as well?
>
> >From looking at the circuit, it looks similar to what one might think
> the LEDDynamics one would look like inside.
Without seeing the circuit, I'm not sufficiently informed
to offer solutions for the noise issues. But know too
that unless the appliance of interest is composed only
of relays and resistors, it has a strong probability of
generating some level of noise. The questions are always
how much noise and at what frequencies?
This is why we do the DO-160 investigations and subsequent
modifications to a product to limit any noises to
acceptable levels. There is a high order probability
that any COTS (commercial off the shelf) device can be
tailored with packaging and filtering to live harmoniously
in the aircraft environment.
If someone could point me to the schematics and
perhaps data sheets for the power supply in question,
we could ponder the options for integrating them into
the system.
Linear (non-noisy) constant current circuits are a dime
a dozen but they are inefficient and unable to provide
constant output over a wide range of input voltages. I
suspect the Leddynamics device is a switchmode device
that works over a wider range of input voltages and
dissipates less heat (more efficient) in the process.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
At 07:24 AM 8/28/2008 +0200, you wrote:
><etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
>
>
>On 28 Aug 2008, at 5:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>An exemplar application can be found in:
>>
>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Just a question. From my understanding, looking at this doc and the
>attachment from Don Curry, it looks as though pin 1 is common, 2 is
>normal and 3 is engaged on push. In your wiring, the bulb will only
>light up when external power is applied, which is great. What happens
>though when the bulb doesn't light up , and there's supposedly
>external power applied? There are only 3 possibilities: there is a
>problem with the external power, the bulb has popped, or the circuit
>breaker is not closed. In the first 2 cases, pushing the lens will
>not make the bulb light up.
>
>Would it not be better to wire the bulb so that it allows better
>fault-tracing? My suggestion would be pin 1 to ground, pin 2 to the
>high voltage side of the contactor coil (where pin 1 is connected on
>your diagram), and pin 3 to a fuse then onto the battery bus (or any
>bus that would normally be powered when you'd want to use external
>power).
>
>The behaviour of the light would change though:
>If there is external power, the lamp will light up with the switch in
>either position, indicating external power is available for use
>If there is no external power getting in (incorrect polarity or
>broken power supply) the bulb will not light
>To test the bulb at any time, with or without external power applied,
>push the lens
>
>What do you think? Am I smoking my socks?
Not at all, you've perceived the possibilities for meeting
different design goals. I explained the rationale for
wiring as-shown in another posting. The suggestions you've
made are equally valid. The differences are how the two
circuits convey understanding . . . which assumes that
the pilot KNOWS what to expect. This suggests that it's
up to the tech-writer who crafts the POH to covey that
understanding to the future users.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
I scratched my head on that one too not so long ago.
Once I concluded (now confirmed to be correct) what NC and NO stood for I
never really got what the word normally meant in this context.
I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted
the apparent paradox, concluded I was missing something sublte and left
it at that.
Now the phrases "circuit complete" and "circuit isolated" have appeared.
These words appear to solve the paradox in that the word "normally"
refers to the end result of normal operation rather than some sort of
paradoxical indicator of what the normal operation of the switch should
be........
Is this correct?
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN TIPTON"
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:31:05 +0100
If you ask a question, you may sometimes be a 'complete idiot' for 5
seconds - if you don't ask
the question you may remain a 'complete idiot' for the rest of your
life
You are correct in you assumptions re: Normally Closed (circuit
complete) - Normally Open
(circuit isolated)
Regards - John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick Muller"
To: "Aero lectric bob List"
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen
diagrams and see switches that
> are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
Quoting Andrew Butler <andrewbutler@ireland.com>:
> I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted
This often happens with momentary switches. They'll have three
terminals--Common, NO, and NC. With the switch at rest, the circuit
from Common to NO is open, and from Common to NC is closed. When the
switch is activated (pressed, etc.), this reverses--Common to NO is
closed, and Common to NC is open. So, it's Normally Open or Normally
Closed depending on how you wire it.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
The US will join Australia and most other industrialized countries to discourage
(or ban) the use of filament lamps in the next few years. Building an airplane
with filament lamps seems to be a stretch...unless you are building one for
a museum and you want it to be historically correct-along with the silk and gutta-percha
insulation on the wires.
Another reason to ditch the filament lamps is seen when you look at the efficacy
of filament lamps. Big lamps, especially halogens can be >20 lumens per watt,
but the tiny indicator lamps are only 3-6 lumens per watt.
Although it seems to be a small thing, incandescent lamps are horribly
inefficient in small sizes. For example:GE# 67 (smallest bayonet instrument light)
13.5 Volts Lamp Power 8W 0.59A 4 Candelas (about 50 lumens) Average Life
5000 Hours. 50 lumens/8W = 6 lumens per watt.
The similar LED is 25-100 lumens per watt, but the comparison doesn't stop there.
The GE #67 incandescent is typically color-filtered so that only 10% of the
emitted light is used, and it is isotropic so only 25% of THAT light goes where
you need it. Furthermore using 10 GE #67 lamps (typical on a panel) is about
6 AMPS.....Astonishing load for no good reason.
And the LED will last FOREVER or 100,000 hours....whichever comes first...20X longer
at least. So the LED (depending on how you figure...) is 1000X better deal.
You want to put in a Push-to-Test switch? You don't need any for the LEDs. You
don't need a socket either, since the LEDs outlast the socket, the connectors,
and Push-to-Talk mechanism.
"Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe.
There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums.
There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
-R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1185#201185
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Bob,
I have emailed you a direct link to this Kitplanes article. Please check it out.
Here is the data sheets for the LEDDYNAMICs driver:
http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/3021-BuckPuck.pdf
Thanks for any input you can share on this.
A few ideas on how to make the most efficient constant currend driver (linear)
would be great. I know it is not the best but it would have to be better than
a huge power robbing resistor....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1186#201186
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> The US will join Australia and most other industrialized countries to discourage
(or ban) the use of filament lamps in the next few years. Building an airplane
with filament lamps seems to be a stretch...unless you are building one for
a museum and you want it to be historically correct-along with the silk and
gutta-percha insulation on the wires.
>
> Another reason to ditch the filament lamps is seen when you look at the efficacy
of filament lamps. Big lamps, especially halogens can be >20 lumens per watt,
but the tiny indicator lamps are only 3-6 lumens per watt.
>
> Although it seems to be a small thing, incandescent lamps are horribly
> inefficient in small sizes. For example:GE# 67 (smallest bayonet instrument
light) 13.5 Volts Lamp Power 8W 0.59A 4 Candelas (about 50 lumens) Average Life
5000 Hours. 50 lumens/8W = 6 lumens per watt.
>
> The similar LED is 25-100 lumens per watt, but the comparison doesn't stop there.
The GE #67 incandescent is typically color-filtered so that only 10% of the
emitted light is used, and it is isotropic so only 25% of THAT light goes where
you need it. Furthermore using 10 GE #67 lamps (typical on a panel) is about
6 AMPS.....Astonishing load for no good reason.
>
> And the LED will last FOREVER or 100,000 hours....whichever comes first...20X
longer at least. So the LED (depending on how you figure...) is 1000X better
deal.
>
> You want to put in a Push-to-Test switch? You don't need any for the LEDs. You
don't need a socket either, since the LEDs outlast the socket, the connectors,
and Push-to-Talk mechanism.
>
One more advantage with the LED is that you can put one anywhere you can
drill a 3/16" hole, and even direct the light by angling the hole
properly. The standard 5mm LED is a push fit into a 3/16" hole. Then
you just need a small amount of room on the backside for hookup wires.
If the mounting surface is thick enough and you're careful, you can use
a #30 bit for the last 1/16" of the hole. Then you don't even need a
bevel. You wind up with a nearly hidden indicator or spot illuminator.
The push fit will keep it in place, but a dollup of shoo-goo is good for
peace-of-mind.
No way you could do that with the GE #67. It needs a special socket to
get rid of all that heat.
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Surplus Crimpers |
> Don't buy a 45-177 yet. I'm negotiating for a bucket
> full of industrial surplus tools that includes a
> quantity of 4-quadrant crimp tools and Idea strippers
> with Tefzel dies in them. They will be offered from
> my website for a whole lot less than new.
I await your announcement :-)
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
do not archive
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations |
Ken, it was that note about 6 volts that led me to wonder about appropriate
voltage. I called the factory this afternoon and told the tech I wanted to
wire my 2000C into ship's power. She told me to snip off the lighter plug
and wire away. The internal power supply can handle up to 36V input. Thanks
to all who replied, this list is a great resource.
Say Bob, I live just down the road in Udall. Would you like to go for a ride
in the trike some evening and see what cruising at 42 mph is like. I have
training bars (not wheels) on the big wing so you can have the PIC station
and really see what weight shift control aircraft are about.
Rick
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
>
> I think Jon is right and you are fine. If there was any kind of voltage
> dropping in the plug it would get noticeably warm like my cell phone plug
> and I've never noticed the 2000c plug to get warm. And as mentioned the
> 2000c will display the correct system voltage of 14.3 when I look. Also
> notice that the display dims noticeably on 6v battery power compared to
> using 12 volts and I believe the manual says that is normal.
>
> The only batteries worth putting in my unit are 2000mah or larger NiMh.
> Alkaline life seems to be measured in minutes. The black and white model is
> much more battery friendly.
>
> Ken
>
> jon@finleyweb.net wrote:
>
>> Fear not Rick, you are ok. I too have the 2000c wired directly into my
>> 12V bus. I don't remember the exact specs but the unit is very tolerant of
>> voltage. Seems like it was anything from 6 to 24 volts (or something like
>> that - check the documentation to confirm).
>> Also, if you install a resistor, the 2000c's voltage display will no
>> longer represent what is on the ship's bus. This is not my primary voltage
>> display but it is a nice backup.
>> Jon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Richard Girard" <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:33pm
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage dropping resistor calculations
>>
>> Okay guys take it esy on the electrically ignorant. I have a Lowrance
>> 2000C GPS in my trike that just eats batteries. I get about an hour from 4
>> new AA's. It was no problem when I was only flying that long one way, I'd
>> just carry four spares in my pocket and change them out before starting
>> home. When I started going further afield I decided to use one of the open
>> slots on the fuse panel and power it from ship's power instead. Since I had
>> the lighter cord that came with the GPS but no lighter recepticle on the
>> trike, I cut off the lighter plug, put on a couple of fastons on the ends of
>> the wires and was FD & H for the last year. I should add that I was smart
>> enough to look at the innards of the plug just to make sure there wasn't
>> anything inside that looked critical to powering the unit. There was one
>> small resistor, but it seemed to me it was for the LED and not the GPS. It
>> was while going through the manual some thirty hours since making the change
>> to onboard power that I began to worry there is no universal power adapter
>> built into the GPS. I fear that I may be pumping 12V into a 6V power supply.
>> This morning I pulled the + wire at the fuse panel and measured the
>> current draw at just slightly under .6 amps. If I understand Ohm's law, and
>> there's some doubt in my mind about that, I need a 10 ohm resistor to drop
>> the voltage, so a stop at Rat Shack was in order. I now have a pair of 10
>> ohm 1 watt resistors, and two questions.
>> Did I do the math correctly? Am I worrying about nothing? Seems to me the
>> GPS runs through the lighter cord just fine on 12 volts, but I sure would
>> hate to damage it by being stupid.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rick Girard
>>
>>
>
>
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
Andrew,
The term "normally" can be known when you look at the drawings.
The switch is drawn normally closed or normally open depending on what
the designer wants to do with the switch. The designer may draw the
switch closed but put a weight on the switch arm. Now the switch is
normally open
( held closed) or normally closed ( held closed). Or a spring on top of
the switch arm. Now it's normally closed (held open) Etc. Etc.HTH.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4@juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not archive
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:36:38 +0000 "Andrew Butler"
<andrewbutler@ireland.com> writes:
I scratched my head on that one too not so long ago.
Once I concluded (now confirmed to be correct) what NC and NO stood for I
never really got what the word normally meant in this context.
I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted
the apparent paradox, concluded I was missing something sublte and left
it at that.
Now the phrases "circuit complete" and "circuit isolated" have appeared.
These words appear to solve the paradox in that the word "normally"
refers to the end result of normal operation rather than some sort of
paradoxical indicator of what the normal operation of the switch should
be........
Is this correct?
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN TIPTON"
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
If you ask a question, you may sometimes be a 'complete idiot' for 5
seconds - if you don't ask
the question you may remain a 'complete idiot' for the rest of your life
You are correct in you assumptions re: Normally Closed (circuit complete)
- Normally Open
(circuit isolated)
Regards - John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick Muller"
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams
and see switches that
> are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
==========
==========
==========
==========
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business.
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Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations |
At 04:01 PM 8/28/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>Ken, it was that note about 6 volts that led me to wonder about
>appropriate voltage. I called the factory this afternoon and told the tech
>I wanted to wire my 2000C into ship's power. She told me to snip off the
>lighter plug and wire away. The internal power supply can handle up to 36V
>input. Thanks to all who replied, this list is a great resource.
I was wondering about that. Given that you'd already tried
it without getting smoke suggested that the power conditioning
had a pretty wide input range!
>Say Bob, I live just down the road in Udall. Would you like to go for a
>ride in the trike some evening and see what cruising at 42 mph is like. I
>have training bars (not wheels) on the big wing so you can have the PIC
>station and really see what weight shift control aircraft are about.
>
>Rick
I'd like that! Do you live on the community grass strip south
of the city?
If so, do the Randalls still live there? I used to deliver
papers to the older Randall when I was in high school.
Randall the younger was really into rebuilding wrecked
cars. Was quite a craftsman as I recall. Last I heard of
them was a move to the airport south of Udall where I
think they took up some aircraft maintenance and rebuilding.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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Bob, You wrote in the net:
"There's a simple circuit you can add to the Gigavac that will emulate
EV-200
functionality -AND- with some judicious design, will eliminate the noise
issues
associated with the EV-200. ."
Bob,
I didn't get any details of this vital circuit which would solve my
shortage of electrical current beautifully. Could you possibly set my nose
in
the right direction to sniff out this circuit?
regards, Ferg
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations |
Bob, That's where I am. Tom Randall lives just up the road. I've never seen
an airplane at his place except for transients and when we run Young Eagles
flights during the Udall Fall Festival. He does a lot of big vehicles and
cars, though.
How close are you to Benton (1K1) or Jabara (AAO)? That's an easy cruise in
the trike when the big wing is on. Since we have a long weekend coming up we
could try for a morning flight before the convective activity kicks off.
That way if there's any headwind I don't have to worry about running out of
daylight while trying to get home.
Rick
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
> At 04:01 PM 8/28/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Ken, it was that note about 6 volts that led me to wonder about
>> appropriate voltage. I called the factory this afternoon and told the tech I
>> wanted to wire my 2000C into ship's power. She told me to snip off the
>> lighter plug and wire away. The internal power supply can handle up to 36V
>> input. Thanks to all who replied, this list is a great resource.
>>
>
> I was wondering about that. Given that you'd already tried
> it without getting smoke suggested that the power conditioning
> had a pretty wide input range!
>
> Say Bob, I live just down the road in Udall. Would you like to go for a
>> ride in the trike some evening and see what cruising at 42 mph is like. I
>> have training bars (not wheels) on the big wing so you can have the PIC
>> station and really see what weight shift control aircraft are about.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
> I'd like that! Do you live on the community grass strip south
> of the city?
>
> If so, do the Randalls still live there? I used to deliver
> papers to the older Randall when I was in high school.
> Randall the younger was really into rebuilding wrecked
> cars. Was quite a craftsman as I recall. Last I heard of
> them was a move to the airport south of Udall where I
> think they took up some aircraft maintenance and rebuilding.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
At 01:36 PM 8/28/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>I scratched my head on that one too not so long ago.
>
>Once I concluded (now confirmed to be correct) what NC and NO stood for I
>never really got what the word normally meant in this context.
>
>I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted the
>apparent paradox, concluded I was missing something sublte and left it at that.
>
>Now the phrases "circuit complete" and "circuit isolated" have appeared.
>These words appear to solve the paradox in that the word "normally" refers
>to the end result of normal operation rather than some sort of paradoxical
>indicator of what the normal operation of the switch should be........
>
>Is this correct?
Pretty close. "Normal" in this case is usually applied to
two-position devices (push buttons, microswitches, relays, etc)
wherein the "normal" is the de-energized or relaxed state of a
spring-loaded mechanism. For example, in the photo at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/sm_switch_cutaway.jpg
The operating button is not depress and the switch is in its
"normal" state. The tiny letters sanded off when I opened this
switch labeled the left-most terminal "C" for common. The
As you can see by inspection, the right-most terminal is
presently connected to "C" and is the "NC" contact. The
middle terminal is presently not connected to anything and
is "NO".
Pushing the operator button transfers the mechanism and
the NO contact becomes connected while the NC contact is
disconnected.
In this picture, we see a 20A plastic relay . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Plastic_Relay_2.jpg
where coil, common, normally open and normally closed
markings are molded into the top. Quite often, terminals
are marked with numbers or not at all. In this case, there's
generally a schematic printed on the side of the device
that references connection numbers or their position
in the terminal pattern. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Mil-Spec_10A_Sealed.jpg
Bob . . .
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Any excuse to go flying . . . |
At 08:50 PM 8/28/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>Bob, That's where I am. Tom Randall lives just up the road. I've never
>seen an airplane at his place except for transients and when we run Young
>Eagles flights during the Udall Fall Festival. He does a lot of big
>vehicles and cars, though.
Hmmm . . . I think airplanes were Darryl's thing. Tom
definitely preferred things with big rubber tires.
>How close are you to Benton (1K1) or Jabara (AAO)?
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Rock_Throw_to_Jabara.jpg
>That's an easy cruise in the trike when the big wing is on. Since we have
>a long weekend coming up we could try for a morning flight before the
>convective activity kicks off. That way if there's any headwind I don't
>have to worry about running out of daylight while trying to get home.
Understood. Dr. Dee and I owned 1K1 for a time back in
'89. Took 6-months to find out that I wasn't cut out
to be an airport owner. It was like being a dairy farmer . . .
sun-up-to-sun-down, 7/365. Had a LOT of fun but other
things we wanted to do too had to be set aside.
When we had it, there was only 2600' of asphalt
and the pole-barns.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/1K1_Spring_1989A.jpg
It's sure a lot different now! I'll have to get over
there an collect another picture for the before-n-after
gallery.
Any excuse to go flying! I think I'm going to be in
Wichita all weekend.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: EV200 circuit |
At 09:02 PM 8/28/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>Bob, You wrote in the net:
>"There's a simple circuit you can add to the Gigavac that will emulate
>EV-200
>functionality -AND- with some judicious design, will eliminate the noise
>issues
>associated with the EV-200. ."
>
>Bob,
> I didn't get any details of this vital circuit which would solve my
>shortage of electrical current beautifully. Could you possibly set my nose
>in
>the right direction to sniff out this circuit?
Yeah, I was hoping that my sample contactor would
be here by now. The rep called me early this week and
said it was "in the mail". I wanted to try the circuit
on a real contactor . . .
What are you building that is so starved for power?
You probably told me when we were up there a few years
back but you'll have to cut this gray-beard a little
slack . . . Lord knows the gray-matter is getting slack!
Bob . . .
Message 26
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Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
At 09:01 AM 8/28/2008 -0400, you wrote:
><echristley@nc.rr.com>
>
>Brantel wrote:
>>That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article
>>driver have over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise
>>problem still exist with that driver as well?
>>
>Education.
Jim's choice of silicon for an LED driver is curious. Perhaps
he likes the part's package . . . it's a dual-inline-plastic
which is easier for the neophyte to work with. There are
some more modern, constant current LED driver devices that
are electrically more suited to the task. An exemplar device
is shown here:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3404.pdf
This is one of a host of similar one to multi-channel dimmer
controllers. The 3404 delivers up to of constant current
to it's companion loads.
It's a switcher. It hums at 1 to 2 Mhz with a butt-ugly
wave-form rich in harmonics. This device needs to be
a very compact layout (small antenna aperture) and be fitted
with conduction filters on the input/output wires. It
MIGHT be okay in a plastic enclosure . . . but a metal
one never hurts.
If folks are interested in an LED driver tested for
radiated and conducted emissions, I might be able to
add that to our catalog in the not too distant future.
My consulting work is going to require me to spend a
lot more time in an RFI lab. I can probably piggy-back
some of my 'government jobs' on top of a paying task.
I used to do this years ago by letting my little gizmo
run in parallel with test articles in the chamber. As
long as we were both cool, I could get two sets of test
data with one scan. If we had an out-lying data point,
I'd turn off my gizmo to see who was responsible
for busting the limits. I think I'll be able to do
this again pretty soon. I'm working three paying jobs
that need to get into the lab soon.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 27
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Subject: | Electroair ignition |
Does anyone have experience with Electroair ignitions? Compared to
Lightspeed?
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
Canopy trimming
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