---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/01/08: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:03 AM - Re: Dancing Ammeter (Ed Gilroy) 2. 05:25 AM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel) 3. 05:54 AM - Re: New background image on aeroelectric.com (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Thermocouple question... (Steve Stearns) 5. 08:49 AM - Re: D-100 Encoder Help (John McKiernan) 6. 09:45 AM - Re: Avionics Back-Up Power (Roger & Jean) 7. 10:13 AM - Z19RB with dual electronic ignition (Roger & Jean) 8. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:59 AM - Re: Dancing Ammeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:05 AM - Re: Avionics Back-Up Power (Carlos Trigo) 11. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Roger & Jean) 13. 11:44 AM - Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Carlos Trigo) 14. 12:16 PM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel) 15. 12:19 PM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel) 16. 12:57 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Harley) 17. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 01:50 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Werner Schneider) 19. 02:39 PM - Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Brantel) 20. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 05:04 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Carlos Trigo) 22. 11:02 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 23. 11:08 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:57 AM PST US From: "Ed Gilroy" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dancing Ammeter Bob: I see that I have stepped in a streaming pile on a path that others have blazed before me !!! As for the excellent references, they describe the situation exactly, I will investigate as you suggest. Many thanks... Ed On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@cox.net> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > At 06:20 PM 8/31/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >> Hello: >> >> Been a member for a few weeks now, trying to figure out a problem on a >> club 172 (building a RV-8). >> >> The term "dancing" seems to be applied to what is happening. With light >> load on (no landing/taxi lights, pitot heat, etc) the ammeter makes a >> rhythmic swing around the zero point of the meter. I would guess 60-80 times >> per second. This started a year ago and our A+P says no big deal, at least 3 >> ships at our airport have the same problem!!! With a heavy, full load (turn >> everything on), ammeter firms right up. >> >> I had a nasty alternator/battery failure last november inside the NYC >> VFR corridor (no place to lose your comm!!!) and replaced alternator + >> regulator but this problem stills haunts us. We recently swapped the >> regulator with another, no joy. >> >> Ideas on how to proceed? >> > > > See list-server thread at: > > http://tinyurl.com/6fb32p > > also top of column 2 on the last page of: > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Regulators/Zeftronics/R15V00_Ford_Style_Reulator.pdf > > and column 2, third paragraph, page 4 of > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grnding.pdf > > It'a a 99% sure deal that if you start with the circuit > breaker at the bus and replace and/or clean-refurbish > ALL metallic joints between the bus and the voltage > regulator, the problem will go away for the twenty+ > years it took for the root cause of the problem to > build up. > > I've never encountered a mechanic that had heard of > this nor an instructor that included it in his/her > teachings. The slow build of TOTAL resistance in > the power path that supplies field current AND > shares bus voltage sense duties will eventually cause > ALL airplanes to do this. The Cessnas are the worst > because of the gross numbers of metallic joints in > this power path. > > Replacing ONE of the many components may cause it > go reduce or go away leading the observer to believe > he/she has "slain the dragon". In fact, until all > the dragons are cleaned out, others will grow to > sufficient size to become the triggering event. > > Metallic joint include those inside the breaker, > master switch, any OV relays, connector pins, > and crimps to wires. Each is small but they all > add up. > > An alternative is to replace the stock 'ford' style > regulator with a more modern device that has a > separate bus voltage sense wire apart from that > which carries field current. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver From: "Brantel" Jim Let us know how it goes, rat shack has a nice small all aluminum project box that should work well for this. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1939#201939 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New background image on aeroelectric.com At 10:36 PM 8/31/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >Hey Bob, we can see a nice view of your house on the right before the >threshold... I wish. the airport had a covenant with houses on both sides of the runway for access by aircraft owners. The house you're referring to is the newest in the neighborhood and across the street from the airport. A house owned by the guy who developed the land in the first place is not visible behind the Trike's control hoop. When he started to develop the land across the street, ALL the lots were platted for homes . . . just what we needed. Houses 400 feet of the end of the runway! I think there's been a meeting of the minds now for protecting the land off the runway approaches. I almost bought a house out there. In http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/1K1_Spring_1989.jpg the southernmost property just west of the runway can be seen to be surrounded by trees etc. That was a junker house that some guy was trying to build by himself. What he was assembling would never be habitable and when he died, the property sold for less than land value because the new owner would have to remove the construction. It was a deal but I had way too much on my plate to really consider it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:02 AM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple question... Bob, Thanks for the help. I'm having a lot of fun on my re-wiring project but it is really time-consuming... I really appreciate having your book, you and the group available to sanity check my details... > **How many total measurement points are you installing? "four, > 6-wire cables" brings an image of 24 conductors for 12 > thermocouples total.** Each of the 6-wire cables is basically used as a copper intermediary for one of the switch poles (four total for the combinations of EGT/CHT and Yellow/Red). Each cable has 5 goes-to-the-switch signals (from one side of 5 thermocouples) and a sixth wire that goes from that cables switch-pole common to a section of TC wire required to move the cold junction back up to the instrument. This gives 10 thermocouples total (which I'll think about extending to six since the grayhill switch will let me). > **One of my favorite "tiny" switches > for thermocouples is a Grayhill GH5602 . . . > > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=GH5602-ND > > which only handles 6 thermocouples. ** Those grayhill switches look exactly like what I was getting ready to go look for. > **Consider using T/C wire all the way from the splices > at the engine couples, through the switch and to the instrument... but avoid > k-wire to copper joints until you are at the rear of the > instrument case. ** How do I bond TC wire directly to the switch without having a copper intermediary? That seems like a better approach but I don't have any good ideas on how to do it (I figured silver-soldering to the switch wasn't likely to work...). Since all my ideas required a copper intermediary, I figured I might as well take advantage of it and remote the TC to copper junctions (other than the required cold-junctions behind the instrument) a couple feet away from the crowded spot on the panel where the switches and instrument reside. If I do end up stuck with a copper intermediary, it seems like the run from the switch to the instrument doesn't have to go back to the pre-switch TC-to-copper junctions and therefore could be just a couple of inches long (the switches will be located at the instrument). Since each would still require a switch-to-copper junction at the switch, a copper to TC junction, and a TC junction back to copper (at the instrument for a cold junction) all within a few inches it seems a kludgy way to do it but it does save running a pair of TC wires a couple of feet in a wire-crowded area. (Annoying theoretical thought follows...) Assuming the "new idea" still balances all the thermocouples correctly (which I *think* it does), and since the section of TC wire could be arbitrarily short (implying arbitrarily iso-thermal) it's seems reasonable to argue that IF you knew that the copper wire from the switch and the copper wire to the instrument were the same alloys (which you don't) that the couples at each end of the arbitrarily short TC wire would cancel and, therefore, you could eliminate them without affect. The implication being that the resulting performance would be equivalent to that with the cold couples at the back of the instrument when, in fact, they aren't there. Clearly I'm missing something here and don't have it all figured out yet... > **Suggest TT-K-24S wire at: > > http://www.omega.com/pptst/XC_K_TC_WIRE.html > > ** I've got some of this wire in 20 Gauge for making thermocouples for not-too-hot areas. For the 10' runs up to the panel, I've got some EXPP-K-20S stranded "extension" wire (but need more...). I picked the 20 Gauge just to follow the "no airframe wire smaller than 22 Gage" rule-of-thumb and the stranded variety for improved motion-related durability. (Sounds like I might have over-thought the problem.) If there is a good way to bond TC wire to the switch then I'll ditch the copper intermediary and switch to the 24 Gauge extension wire for the couple of feet required to go up to the switches. I'm assuming it's not worth "home-brewing" from scratch either EGT probes or plug-washer CHT probes so I haven't purchased any high-temp TC wire. But can you replace the wire in plug-washer CHT probes and, if so, do you have a part number for an appropriate wire to buy for that purpose? Seemingly simple principles sure lead to a lot of required details to get it right. Sort of a Mandelbrot or "emergent behavior" sort of thing. Thanks in advance, Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:50 AM PST US From: "John McKiernan" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-100 Encoder Help Ed, I have virtually the same setup except a Dynon D-180. The Dynon install manual has you set the Altitude output to !: The EFIS Altitude Encoder format must be set to format number one. To change this setting, from the main menu, select: MORE > SETUP > MORE > ALTENC. Press FRMAT until it reads "1." Set to output 1 my King KT76A is working fine with respect to ATC. The Garmin 300XL gives you two choices for serial altitude input: Icarus-alt and shadin-alt. Neither of which is compatible to the Dynon serial output of "1". I did have the Dynon output set to "4" which worked on the 300XL, but wouldn't allow the Transponder to work. Maybe there is a workaround to this problem using the serial stream? You could always feed the 300xl with gray code split from the Dynon serial encoder. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:39 AM PST US From: "Roger & Jean" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Back-Up Power Hmmmm . . . this is a bit problematic. Battery installation philosophy in A/C calls for local disconnect (battery contactor or relay). We also need to size the wiring so expected loads and recharge currents do not experience too large voltage drop. Finally, all wires need to be properly protected against faults. Bob . . . Bob, >From one of your recent postings, you mentioned that battery install philosophy calls for a local disconnect. In the Z19RB the wires off the busses at the 2 batteries are always hot. Are you saying that the fat wires must be short or disconnected and it is OK to have small fused wires, always hot going to the instrument panel and elsewhere? Thanks, Roger ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:44 AM PST US From: "Roger & Jean" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z19RB with dual electronic ignition Bob, I will be using the Z19RB schematic, modified to fit my application. I am planning to have 2 fuel pumps in parallel and 2 electronic ignitions. May I have your suggestions on the best modification to make this happen? Roger ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver At 10:55 PM 8/31/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >I had a conversation with an engineer from the mfg of the Buck Puck and >the very first thing he suggested is to package the PWS in a >container. Just going to try this? Hope he is right. That's half the battle. Containers provide (1) attenuation of radiated emissions and (2) ground reference for line filters to attenuate conducted emissions. A metallic enclosure MAY be necessary. Line filters are the first thing to try. That's why I asked if the noise conduction path had been identified in an earlier post. If the noises are noted coming in through the antenna on vor/com receivers, then the filters need tailoring for vhf frequencies . . . MUCH smaller/easier than audio/LF frequencies that plague other victims by conducting noise out on power lines. One observes by the packaging of the Buck Puck that it was not designed to be a stand-alone product but a component of a more comprehensive assembly. The elegant solution for integrating this device into airplanes is to built an adapter board that also mounts a d-sub connector. The line filter components can be assembled on the board along with the connector and power supply. Once the filter components are wired in, you can test to see if the noise went away. If not, mount the assembly in a metal enclosure where the 'ground' side of the filters are connected to that enclosure. I'll lay out a board and get some WAG filter components ordered. I need to know if there is continuity between the LED- and Vin(-). If you can get me this bit of info, I'll finish the board layout and get those ordered too. Also, do you plan to use the CONTROL or REFERENCE features of these devices? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dancing Ammeter At 07:01 AM 9/1/2008 -0400, you wrote: >Bob: > > I see that I have stepped in a streaming pile on a path that others > have blazed before me !!! > > As for the excellent references, they describe the situation exactly, > I will investigate as you suggest. > > Many thanks... > >Ed My pleasure sir! Let me know how it works out. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:21 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Back-Up Power Bob As usual you've been very useful. Thanks for your help Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > > > I am thinking in installing the battery in the tail deck (under the RV-9A > tail fairing), in order to obtain the longest arm to help with the Balance > of the aircraft. > > The (-) terminal will be connected to a local Ground (which is the same I > used for the tail light), and the (+) terminal connected to a 16A fuse > located near the battery. (Is this fuse adequate to protect the wire and > the battery from any inadvertent short along the hot wire?). > > Sure, fuses are fast and tend to limit energy in > the fault to the lowest practical values. > > By the way, regarding your observation that the wire should not be hot > after shutdown, because of maintenance and crash safety, my humble opinion > is that, in case of maintenance it is easy to disconnect the battery or > pull out the fuse, and in case of crash I do have many hot wires around. > > If this meets your design goals, then go for it! > > From the fuse I will run an AWG#14 wire to a buss behind the instrument > panel. Actually I'm planning this "buss" to be the "out" terminal of a > diode, and I am thinking to connect the Main Battery to the "In" terminal > of the Diode, to charge the Back-Up Battery. > From that "buss" (the "out" terminal of the diode) I would run wires to > each of the Avionics to be fed with back-up power. > > And that's where I come back to my initial question: > > How do I wire from this back-up "buss", which is permanently hot, to each > of the Avionics (Comm Radio and Transponder) which only have one power input? > > Okay, you already have two batteries and you've > suggested that the always hot wire does not violate > your design goals. You've also stated a desire not > to add switches. > > I am prepared to be technically fustigated but please be gentle.. > > Not a problem. If I understand your design goals > accurately, then how about simply adding the second > battery in parallel to the battery that is already > tasked with running the panel when the alternator is > off line. Fuses at both ends protects the wire, > minimized parts count and avoids voltage drops > associated with diodes. > > There's much M-Squared (mythology and misunderstanding) > about paralleling batteries. It is true that any number > of batteries may be paralleled for the purpose of > charging them on a constant voltage source. All > batteries will accept what ever energy they are capable > of holding. Any number of batteries may be paralleled > for the purpose of discharging them and aside from > shorted-cell failures (exceedingly rare in RG batteries) > all paralleled batteries will deliver all their contained > energy to the load irrespective of their size or condition. > > Energy storage abilities of the tail-battery will > be seamlessly added to those of the existing panel- > battery if you simply parallel them. > > For the purposes of supporting good recharging times > on the tail battery and minimizing voltage drop on that > long run, I'll suggest 10AWG wire and 20A MAXI fuses at both > ends. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver At 07:15 PM 8/31/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I and several others have tried the wired buck puck by LEDDynamics: > >http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php > >I think most if not all of these different types of drivers from >LEDDynamics have similar circuits in them and similar noise issues. > >I personally have the 1000mA version with two parallel runs of three K2 >stars in series for 500mA on each series string of 3 LED's. This 6 LED's >total side of the airplane. > >I do not have a panel mounted radio yet to try but several others have >tried them with the SL30 with no success. I do however have a handheld >with similar problems when used near these drivers. Aha! if a hand-held has the problem, we know it's radiated in through the antenna. That's what I would have guessed but there's risk in guessing. >The symptoms that most report with panel mount radios is noise over the >headsets and reduced sensitivity (distant signals go quiet) when the LED >driver is powered on. Handheld goes nuts (tons of static/noise/inability >to squelch it out) when within 50ft of these things while running the >handheld on separate battery power. > >The literature for the driver says to put a 220uF cap across the power >leads to the driver when operating with long input leads. Most report >that this does nothing to help the noise issue, > >Others have went a step farther and installed a 220uF cap and a .1uF cap >in parallel across the input leads and this reduced the audible noise on >the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity. > >Still another went a step farther and tried the same on the input and >outputs of the driver with the same results. Reduced the audible noise on >the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity. > >And as a final straw, one guy put both the caps on the input leads and >also added a loop thru a ferrite bead optimized for the airband on the >input leads, output leads, and the wires going to and coming from his >audio panel and panel mount radio. This eliminated the audible noise on >the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity (turn >off the driver and distant stations come in loud and clear, turn on the >driver and they go quiet, seems to trigger the active noise reduction >circuits of the panel mount radio when the noise floor is raised). > >The only thing we have not tried is to put this whole mess in a sealed >aluminum box and ground it. > >There are a bunch of us over on the VAF site that would love to get these >things working with our airplanes. The driver is just too simple and >inexpensive. There has to be some relativly simple fix for this. These >drivers have great constant current, run at wide voltage ranges, work >great with the high power LED's, and produce little to no heat. If it was >not for this noise issue, the perfect thing for us.... Okay, In another post I've offered to lay out a board that will mount the Buck Puck and bring leads out to the aircraft on a 9-pin D-sub. Are you using the Control or Reference connections? Also, I need to know if there is electrical continuity between Vin minus and LEDout minus connections. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:44 AM PST US From: "Roger & Jean" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver At 10:55 PM 8/31/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >I had a conversation with an engineer from the mfg of the Buck Puck and >the very first thing he suggested is to package the PWS in a >container. Just going to try this? Hope he is right. That's half the battle. Containers provide (1) attenuation of radiated emissions and (2) ground reference for line filters to attenuate conducted emissions. A metallic enclosure MAY be necessary. Line filters are the first thing to try. That's why I asked if the noise conduction path had been identified in an earlier post. If the noises are noted coming in through the antenna on vor/com receivers, then the filters need tailoring for vhf frequencies . . . MUCH smaller/easier than audio/LF frequencies that plague other victims by conducting noise out on power lines. One observes by the packaging of the Buck Puck that it was not designed to be a stand-alone product but a component of a more comprehensive assembly. The elegant solution for integrating this device into airplanes is to built an adapter board that also mounts a d-sub connector. The line filter components can be assembled on the board along with the connector and power supply. Once the filter components are wired in, you can test to see if the noise went away. If not, mount the assembly in a metal enclosure where the 'ground' side of the filters are connected to that enclosure. I'll lay out a board and get some WAG filter components ordered. I need to know if there is continuity between the LED- and Vin(-). If you can get me this bit of info, I'll finish the board layout and get those ordered too. Also, do you plan to use the CONTROL or REFERENCE features of these devices? If you are going to build a board, it would be good to keep all options open. Roger Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:21 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? Help appreciated Carlos ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:32 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver From: "Brantel" Bob, I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to use the control or reference functions but it would be great if those "could" be used on this rig in the event someone wanted to strobe/dim/on-off control these things for other applications in the plane. I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does have 100% continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter). I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA @ 12vDC using a wall wart powersupply. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2004#202004 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:00 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver From: "Brantel" Bob, I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to use the control or reference functions but it would be great if those "could" be used on this rig in the event someone wanted to strobe/dim/on-off control these things for other applications in the plane. I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does have 100% continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter). I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA @ 12vDC using a wall wart powersupply. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2005#202005 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:22 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual Carlos... No problem...I just googled "garmin 330 transponder installation manual" and came up with this: http://tinyurl.com/6gnuqp Harley Carlos Trigo wrote: > > Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation > Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? > > > > Help appreciated > > Carlos > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver At 12:14 PM 9/1/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to >use the control or reference functions but it would be great if those >"could" be used on this rig in the event someone wanted to >strobe/dim/on-off control these things for other applications in the plane. > >I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does >have 100% continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter). > >I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA @ 12vDC using a >wall wart powersupply. Very good. I've laid out a board that's 1.6" x 1.5" with a 9-pin d-sub and couple-capped, pi-net filters on both power+ in and LED+ out leads. I found a 100uH inductor in a 10mm x 10mm footprint that's good for an amp of DC current. The boards and inductors are on order. Capacitors and connnectors are in stock. If you'd like to mail me your Buck-Puck, I'll assemble it onto the board with the filter and check it against my hand-held before I return it to you for testing in your system. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:23 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual There is a bit newer revision J, Carlos let me know if I should send it to you Werner Harley wrote: > Carlos... > > No problem...I just googled "garmin 330 transponder installation > manual" and came up with this: > http://tinyurl.com/6gnuqp > > Harley > > Carlos Trigo wrote: >> >> Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation >> Manual (not the Users Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? >> >> Help appreciated >> >> Carlos >> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> >> > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:25 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver From: "Brantel" Bob, I'll just drop ship you a new one from the supplier. How do you want it, flying leads or board mounted? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2030#202030 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver At 02:38 PM 9/1/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I'll just drop ship you a new one from the supplier. How do you want it, >flying leads or board mounted? Board mounted. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:55 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual Thanks Harley I wasn't so lucky or wise enough in my googling. Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: segunda-feira, 1 de Setembro de 2008 20:56 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual Carlos... No problem...I just googled "garmin 330 transponder installation manual" and came up with this: http://tinyurl.com/6gnuqp Harley Carlos Trigo wrote: Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? Help appreciated Carlos href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution _____ Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:43 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:43 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.