---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/03/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:32 AM - Where can I purchase AEC products? (Ratman) 2. 04:29 AM - Re: Wire availability? (Terry Phillips) 3. 04:32 AM - Re: Wire availability? (Ratman) 4. 04:43 AM - Re: Where can I purchase AEC products? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 04:47 AM - Re: Switch problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 05:18 AM - Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? (Steve Stearns) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: Switch problem (Charles Brame) 8. 08:12 AM - Re: Switch problem (Vernon Little) 9. 10:12 AM - Re: Switch problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:13 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/02/08 (Glen Matejcek) 11. 12:26 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Iberplanes IGL) 12. 01:14 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Randy) 13. 01:24 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual (Brett Ferrell) 14. 01:30 PM - Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 03:54 PM - Re: Garmin GTX-330 Installation Manual (Carlos Trigo) 16. 11:24 PM - Re: B+C alternator problem () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Where can I purchase AEC products? From: "Ratman" I have looked and looked, searched and searched but I can't even find where someone else has asked the question. Where can I purchase AEC products? Specifically AEC9005-101. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2274#202274 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:54 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire availability? From: "Terry Phillips" I cannot help you with the multiple conductor wire, but I have several thousand feet of non-shielded 22 AWG Mil Spec 22759/32-22-6 Tefzel insulated single conductor wire that I'm planning to sell as soon as I decide how many feet to put on a spool (I don't plan to sell it by the foot). The price would be about $.05/ft plus postage. I'm thinking between 500 and 1000 ft/spool. The insulation is a nice light blue color. Let me know if you're interested. Terry > Bob and the Group, > > I was hoping to find aircraft wire of the following types, please let me > know if you know where it's available (it may not exist...). I do have > less optimal substitutions for each if I can't find them. > > 8 & 10 gauge in both Red & Black > or both 8 & 10 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) (better but I'm expecting to > have to use white singles at this point...) > 20 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) > 20 gauge 3-wire (shielded) > 22 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) > 24 gauge 8-wire (non-shielded) -------- Terry Phillips Corvallis, MT ttp44<at>rkymtn.net Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2277#202277 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire availability? From: "Ratman" http://www.steinair.com/wire.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2280#202280 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where can I purchase AEC products? At 03:30 AM 9/3/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >I have looked and looked, searched and searched but I can't even find >where someone else has asked the question. > >Where can I purchase AEC products? Specifically AEC9005-101. Those are discontinued products but the data packages are published for the benefit of those who own them. They will be replaced by a new line of products under development. I have quantities of some items already assembled and I've been working on instruction manuals to go with them. My son and daughter-in-law are learning how to assemble and test the new products. As soon as we have a half dozen different items ready to deliver, they'll be added to the catalog pages of the website. AEC9005 is being replaced by a version of this low volts warning and ov protection for generators. http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/ A part number hasn't been assigned but it will offer the same functionality as the AEC9005 and a bit more . . . We're 'in training' on the 9011 right now. The next project up will be the LV warn/Aux Battery management module. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem At 10:30 PM 9/2/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > >Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a couple of >years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost identical >failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually identical to the >failed switch shown in your article. You mentioned this a couple of weeks ago . . . and I wondered if you were the reader who supplied me the carcass of the failed switch in the article. >Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in >identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application problem. I >have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any indication of >what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches? Not a coincidence. What about the Whelen product makes you believe it's unique among strobe systems with respect to power demands. Three similar failures in so short a period of time tends to support your suspicions but I'm curious as to what you might know that I've not yet discovered. What kind of switch did you put in place of the failed switch and how much time do you have on it? Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:22 AM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? Bob, Regarding my interest in a noise filter for my strobe: > ** > Now does noise from the strobe manifest itself > in your system? > > ** I was told it was audible via the intercom and the previous owner had glued (literally) a massive aluminum electrolytic to the top of the case (the size of a tall drinking glass) "which helped" (as I remember being told). I'm redoing the wiring from scratch and it's possible that elimination of a previously existing big radio/intercom power feed loop will have taken care of the problem but it seems prudent to put some filtering in to replace the overly large cap. My goal is to put in something "reasonable" and, with luck, not have anything to chase down in this area when I power everything back up again after the rewiring. Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:01 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem Bob & Vernon, Thanks for the rapid replies. I find it interesting that each of the failures were in a strobe circuit In my case, it was also a Whelen Strobe System with a single power pack driving three strobes. It had been in intermittent use for less than 50 hours. I have already ordered a new Carling switch from B&C. I think I will reverse the current flow through the switch as you suggested in your article. If it blows again, I will switch to the Honeywell Microswitch 11TS95 as you recommended. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Time: 10:36:26 PM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a couple of years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost identical failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually identical to the failed switch shown in your article. Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application problem. I have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any indication of what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches? Thanks, Vern Little -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: September 2, 2008 9:43 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem --> At 09:17 PM 9/2/2008 -0500, you wrote: > Bob, et., al., > > My strobe lights blows its fuse. After replacing the 10A fuse, it blew > again when the Master Switch was turned on with the strobe power > off. The > wire from the power bus to the switch checked okay. However, the > fast-on > for the wire that goes to the strobe power pack was charred. A > continuity > check of the switch shows a closed circuit from the common terminal > to the > exterior switch mounting bolt and knob, regardless of the switch > position. So, I think I have isolated the problem to the panel > mounted > strobe power switch being shorted out internally. > > Questions: > > Do I have the right switch for the situation? The switch is a B&C 700 > series, 1-3 On-On. Its on a 12 volt system. A single hot wire goes > from > the power bus to the switch and from the switch to the power pack. The > power pack is locally grounded. All wires are 18 gauge. > > Are these type switch failures common? > I didn't think so . . . but it seems you've duplicated a failure mode effect that was discovered in a strobe system about 2 years ago. See: http://tinyurl.com/2a2qqp > Any ideas of what could have caused the short? > The working hypothesis is discussed in the failure analysis. It would be interesting to get a current draw signature from your strobe system . . . and to find out if its the same brand as the one involved in the earlier incident. These switches are rated for plenty of current to carry the strobe system currents I'm familiar with but there may be something curious afoot here. In any case, consider replacing the Carling device with something heavier . . . A Honeywell Microswitch 11TS95 http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/11ts95.series.chart. 1.pdf http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail? name=480-3066-ND Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:39 AM PST US From: "Vernon Little" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem Hi Bob, I replaced the failed switch with another Carling/B&C switch. I've had some trouble with loose rivets on some of these switches which I thought was the root cause of the thermal problems. I will be inspecting the replacement switch later today. The external evidence of problems is a burnt fast-on and discolored terminals. I have about 100 hours on the replacement. Thanks, Vern >Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a couple >of years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost >identical failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually >identical to the failed switch shown in your article. You mentioned this a couple of weeks ago . . . and I wondered if you were the reader who supplied me the carcass of the failed switch in the article. >Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in >identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application problem. >I have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any >indication of what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches? Not a coincidence. What about the Whelen product makes you believe it's unique among strobe systems with respect to power demands. Three similar failures in so short a period of time tends to support your suspicions but I'm curious as to what you might know that I've not yet discovered. What kind of switch did you put in place of the failed switch and how much time do you have on it? Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem At 08:08 AM 9/3/2008 -0700, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob, I replaced the failed switch with another Carling/B&C switch. I've >had some trouble with loose rivets on some of these switches which I thought >was the root cause of the thermal problems. > >I will be inspecting the replacement switch later today. The external >evidence of problems is a burnt fast-on and discolored terminals. I have >about 100 hours on the replacement. > >Thanks, >Vern Thanks for taking the time to track this. This basic switch configuration has been around for a VERY long time in airplanes. The rocker switches with fast-ons used in the Cessna product late in the 60s used this manufacturing processes. Certainly, many tens of thousands of strobe systems have been controlled with this switch. It will be interesting to see what you find. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:32 AM PST US From: Glen Matejcek Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/02/08 You might try B&B Aircraft and / or Airparts. I believe they are both in KS somewhere, but I'm on the road and don't have that info at my finger tips. Also, there is a salvage house in FL that has all manner of surplus mil spec wire. >Time: 07:03:20 AM PST US >From: Steve Stearns >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire availability? > > >Bob and the Group, > >I was hoping to find aircraft wire of the following types, please let me >know if you know where it's available (it may not exist...). I do have >less optimal substitutions for each if I can't find them. > >8 & 10 gauge in both Red & Black >or both 8 & 10 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) (better but I'm expecting to >have to use white singles at this point...) >20 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) >20 gauge 3-wire (shielded) >22 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) >24 gauge 8-wire (non-shielded) > >Thanks in advance, > >Steve Stearns >Boulder/Longmont, Colorado >CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) >Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) >Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D Glen Matejcek ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:54 PM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual from garmin. 2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo > Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation > Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? > > > Help appreciated > > Carlos > > * > > * > > -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:33 PM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual Try this http://www.rv7-a.com/manuals/GTX330Transponder_InstallationManual.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Iberplanes IGL To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual from garmin. 2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? Help appreciated Carlos -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 9/3/2008 7:15 AM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:00 PM PST US From: Brett Ferrell Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual from my website http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/GTX330Transponder_PilotsGuide.pdf http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/GTX330Transponder_InstallationManual.pdf Quoting Iberplanes IGL : > from garmin. > > > 2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo > > > Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation > > Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? > > > > > > > > Help appreciated > > > > Carlos > > > > * > > > > * > > > > > > > -- > Alberto Martin > www.iberplanes.es > Igualada - Barcelona - Spain > > ---------------------------------------------- > Zodiac 601 XL Builder > Serial: 6-7011 > > Tail Kit: Finished > Wings: Not Started > Fuselage: Ordered > Engine: Jabiru 3300 > -- A ship in harbor is safe -- but that is not what ships are built for. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? At 06:12 AM 9/3/2008 -0600, you wrote: > >Bob, >Regarding my interest in a noise filter for my strobe: >>** >> Now does noise from the strobe manifest itself >> in your system? >> >> ** >I was told it was audible via the intercom and the previous owner had >glued (literally) a massive aluminum electrolytic to the top of the case >(the size of a tall drinking glass) "which helped" (as I remember being >told). I'm redoing the wiring from scratch and it's possible that >elimination of a previously existing big radio/intercom power feed loop >will have taken care of the problem but it seems prudent to put some >filtering in to replace the overly large cap. > >My goal is to put in something "reasonable" and, with luck, not have >anything to chase down in this area when I power everything back up again >after the rewiring. This is a LongEz? Where is the strobe supply mounted and how is it grounded? Do you have a single point ground system? Where are the microphone and headset jacks grounded? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:21 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Installation Manual Thanks to everybody who answered. I already have it. Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Iberplanes IGL Sent: quarta-feira, 3 de Setembro de 2008 20:25 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual from garmin. 2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder? Help appreciated Carlos -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:55 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B+C alternator problem > Bob - > >Here are more specifics for this installation: > > > >The wiring diagram provided by the builder (and it seems to be accurate) > >is the "Z-1, Simple system with Toggle Mag Sw and Linear Regulator." Okay, this drawing was 'retired' at Z-9 or so and replaced with Z-11. They are similar in many respects. > >The battery is a Concorde RG 25XC. > >The alternator is a B+C L40, s/n 010806. > >The regulator/OV prot is a B+C LR-3, s/n 11920211. I don't recall how to read B&C's serial numbers with respect to manufacturing date. But it may well be that this one pre-dates the modifications added later to reduce probability of nuisance trips. > > > >The C/B from the alt output is only 40 amps! I'm guessing it should be > >bigger based on your previous comments or I can use a current limiter you > >suggest but I'll need to know which one/where are they available. You can get the legacy current limiters and mounting bases from B&C. Alternatively, a MAXI fuse holder from the O'Rileys or some other parts store would do too. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/MaxiFuse_Holder.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/maxi.gif They can supply the fuse too. Use a 60A. Tie the fuseholder onto the fat wire that feeds your starter contactor and tie b-lead power into the system at the starter contactor. > > The alternator field fuse that has blown several times I rechecked and > > is 15 amps. Does the "nuisance trip" scenario you speak of manifest as > > blowing the 15 amp fuse? Yes. I dug back into the archives and found that Z-1 suggested the 15A fuse protected feeder from the fuseblock that was followed downstream by a 5A breaker on the panel. Later drawings suggested a much more robust protection of the alternator field breaker feed in the form of a fusible link . . . see Z-11. For your purposes now, replace the 15A fuse with a 30A fuse. This will probably transfer the trip to the breaker instead of the fuse. It seems likely that the LR3 is seeing something that irritates it's ov protection sensing. The original design observed all the recommendations for noise immunity but when we started installing this system in the Bonanzas, one of the test pilots found that if he turned both landing and taxi lights on at the same time, he could trip the standby alternator ov system. The noises generated by this event were pretty spectacular. Inrush currents from two large lamps through the very bouncy contacts of W31 breaker-switches put some really ugly transients onto the bus. It was doubtful that anyone would DO that thing but it wasn't difficult to modify the circuit to ignore this stimulus. We modified the circuit and have experienced no difficulties (that I'm aware of) since. > >What else would you like to know and what do you think? Thank you. JBB Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity. If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but let's see what they say first. Bob . . . Bob - Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the LR-3B needed much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now and I get the idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His suggestion was to monitor the low voltage light to see under which conditions it comes on. I don't think I can get it to trip when I want. I am suspecting it might not be a consistent cause i.e. the dreaded intermittent type of thing. But, I now know enough about the location of components in my particular system to troubleshoot if I knew where to start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse in the field location. I haven't flown it yet this way. 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